Ostrich Society Response

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to coolade2's comment:

     

    In response to jri37's comment:

     

    In last nights game it came down to coaching and execution on both sides of the ball. The Welker drop in particular was a key play in the game it changed the entire flow for the rest of the game. Instead of punting they would have had 1st and ten on the 24 with at minimum a FG making it 16-7 and the momentum swinging in the Pat's favor.

     



    I think they punted from the 33 yard line down to the 14.  A 19 yard punt.   that was 4th and 8 .  Ouch,  that drop started a sequence of fail.

     

     



    There are certain plays that change games or as they say "turning points" and that was the play.

     



    They should have gone for it on both 4th downs inside the 35 yard line. What happened to the aggressive Belichick way!! The risk/reward there dictates that you go for it. Especially with the Patriots liabilities on defense. Lastly, Flacco badly outplayed Brady.....again.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from coolade2. Show coolade2's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:

    In response to Schumpeters-Ghost's comment:

     

    If you don't identify the problem, you can't solve the problem.

     

    The opening post isn't interested in identifying the problem.  In fact the original post is in full denial saying in essence "there is no problem."

     

     

     




     

    Couldn't have said it better. Homers see no problem...Those that respect and know the game know there is a huge problem to be fixed before this team is SB worthy.....



    SB worthy...?  Oh like 9-7 giants , or 6 loss ravens?  Its about winning a couple big games with a solid game plan and making plays.  I was wrong about McDaniels.  Playcalling sucked in key segments of game .  The big 3rd and 7 drop by Welker was preceded by long incompletion on 1st down in gusty winds.  No running game even attempted.  This was the way the game was lost.... Pats were ahead 13-7 at the time in 3rd qtr.  Fail.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Well in truth they DID lose because of the Ron Braces, Butlers, and Chungs of the world, because when our starters went down...the thing we are suppossed to be so well built for (depth, value, quality, spreading of the wealth, roster well stocked from top to bottom, our next guy is not that fare off from our other guy) went BOOM!!

    We signed 15 tight ends this off season because the position was so important to us...we even carried one on the pup for 8 weeeks...none of them could play. How much did we spend this year on back up tight ends? Four million? More?

    Hey, we are lucky to of had the run we have had over the last 12 years, but mistakes have been made. We got punched in the face at home by a team that was old and tired. Our depth was tested...it failed miserably. We still have 3-4 million on the cap that we didn't spend this year...how did that help us? Maybe we can use some of that cash next year for more backups that will crap their pants in the playoffs?




    EXACTLY what my thoughts were when reading the op.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    Well in truth they DID lose because of the Ron Braces, Butlers, and Chungs of the world, because when our starters went down...the thing we are suppossed to be so well built for (depth, value, quality, spreading of the wealth, roster well stocked from top to bottom, our next guy is not that fare off from our other guy) went BOOM!!

    We signed 15 tight ends this off season because the position was so important to us...we even carried one on the pup for 8 weeeks...none of them could play. How much did we spend this year on back up tight ends? Four million? More?

    Hey, we are lucky to of had the run we have had over the last 12 years, but mistakes have been made. We got punched in the face at home by a team that was old and tired. Our depth was tested...it failed miserably. We still have 3-4 million on the cap that we didn't spend this year...how did that help us? Maybe we can use some of that cash next year for more backups that will crap their pants in the playoffs?

     



    Stop your whining. Yes the Pats have made mistakes in drafting and signing and maybe paying the price by not winning yesterday, but for every successful team that makes the playoffs almost every year there are a bunch of teams and their fans who wish their team could be as successful as the NE Patriots. These folks root against the Pats out of jealousy, nothing more, nothing less. 

     

    Hetch




    Same old tired mantra. Everybody envies us for losing SBs and AFCCGs. Oh if they only could reach that pinnacle they would be as joyous as we are!

    And we mock the jets for losing 2 AFCCGs recently. Ridiculous.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    Well Muz, the Ostrich Society is an apt moniker. We will win it all next year with this awesome core we have. Just a couple of small tweaks left!

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    Bravo, Muz.

    Remaining positive and optimistic about this team and its chances doesn't mean that those of us who do are ignoring the team's deficiencies.  The Pats are universally regarded as one of the top franchises in the game by everyone with any measure of objectivity.  In order to get over the top they need to fix some things.  I see steps having been taken already to do so and am optimistic, yes I said the 'o' word, that they will continue to do so.  

    Win it all next year??  Who the hell knows but I sure like their chances to be right there in the mix.  I think, in all reason, that's all we can ask.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    Which team's fans would you trade places with if you could replace your memory of ever being a Patriot fan? Baltimore? One title 12 years ago, also ran ever since. Pittsburgh, two titles in the 00s is very nice, but they don't contend every year like the Pats. Ditto Giants.  You whine when the Pats lose in the CG, what would you be saying this year if you were a Giant fan? "Well, we will always have last year even if we can't ever seem to win 10 games in a mediocre division."

    So who is it?  San Fran?  Nice team now, but about 15 years of futility after they last were good.  Green Bay?  Good choice, but would you be thrilled with the way they've finished recently?  Houston, Denver?  

    I'm OK with what we got. Yeah, I'd like them to close the deal one of these years and I'm confident they will.  Wouldn't trade the last 11 years for any of those teams.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Which team's fans would you trade places with if you could replace your memory of ever being a Patriot fan? Baltimore? One title 12 years ago, also ran ever since. Pittsburgh, two titles in the 00s is very nice, but they don't contend every year like the Pats. Ditto Giants.  You whine when the Pats lose in the CG, what would you be saying this year if you were a Giant fan? "Well, we will always have last year even if we can't ever seem to win 10 games in a mediocre division."

    So who is it?  San Fran?  Nice team now, but about 15 years of futility after they last were good.  Green Bay?  Good choice, but would you be thrilled with the way they've finished recently?  Houston, Denver?  

    I'm OK with what we got. Yeah, I'd like them to close the deal one of these years and I'm confident they will.  Wouldn't trade the last 11 years for any of those teams.




    In my opinion I think you're missing the point. What I saw from this team 10 years ago when this "run" started was a team that had maybe one of the most smart, accurate and competitive quarterbacks I had ever seen. If you talked to people that followed football they would of told you he was capable (or we) were capable of winning more titles. Our division has been a quarterback free, joke, cake walk over the last decade (we couldn't of asked for something easier) - yet we have made so many mistakes acquiring talent that we have not won another Super Bowl.

    We have done a wonderful job keeping the operating budget of this roster down - what we have not done is build a defense or offense that is tough, physical and talented enough to win another Super Bowl. In my opinion we have rode the coat tails of Tom Brady and it now looks like that may no longer work.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Which team's fans would you trade places with if you could replace your memory of ever being a Patriot fan? Baltimore? One title 12 years ago, also ran ever since. Pittsburgh, two titles in the 00s is very nice, but they don't contend every year like the Pats. Ditto Giants.  You whine when the Pats lose in the CG, what would you be saying this year if you were a Giant fan? "Well, we will always have last year even if we can't ever seem to win 10 games in a mediocre division."

    So who is it?  San Fran?  Nice team now, but about 15 years of futility after they last were good.  Green Bay?  Good choice, but would you be thrilled with the way they've finished recently?  Houston, Denver?  

    I'm OK with what we got. Yeah, I'd like them to close the deal one of these years and I'm confident they will.  Wouldn't trade the last 11 years for any of those teams.




    Would you trade the last 6 years for the Giants' last 6? The last 8 for the Steelers' last 8? The last 3 for the Packers last 3? I would.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Inokea4coolaid. Show Inokea4coolaid's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    I don't speak for all Ostriches, but as a proud charter member of the Society I must make my feelings known. 

    So they play a lousy game and the season ends too soon. Naturally, the trolls are in their glory. This is their time, let them gloat. Who cares. 

    If you think about the mentality of a troll, what energy they invest in the act of trolling, you just know they are absolutely miserable human beings. Their lives are so unbearable that the only joy they derive is in the misery of others. They'd have made good concentration camp guards. My advice is ignore them, despite the temptation to take them on. You're better than them, don't sink to their level. 

    Trolls are obvious. Even if they try to hide behind a Patriot-related avatar or say something like, "I'm a huge Pats fan, but..." No need to name names here, we all know who they are. In the end, they are a harmless, powerless nuisance.

    Frankly, I'm more bothered by the handwringers and the come-lately pink hatters. We all know about the lousy draft picks (we know Baltimore or San Fran would never pick a bust like Sergio Kindle or Taylor Mays) and the dropped passes and the thises and thats.  They didn't lose yesterday because of Ron Brace or Darius Butler. They lost because they got outcoached and outplayed by a better football team. That's it. I'll give the Ravens their due (although I do hope they get annihilated by San Fran). It was one game, that's all. It doesn't mean the Patriots are worthless or losers or anything of the sort, no more than Baltimore was any of that after last year's game.

    You want to talk about the game, fine (I don't myself, but have at it). You want to talk about fixing the team's flaws, the draft, free agency, coaching changes, scheme changes, etc., all good. If trading Brady or firing Belichick is your thing, fine. Stupid, but fine. 

    But understand this, they're still one of the best teams in football and will be again next year.  Life goes on. They will rise again.

    Stay proud Ostriches. Remember this, flightless birds never crash. 

    "If you're going through hell, keep going." -- Churchill



    Hmmm, interesting.  The only thing I would say is that maybe u'd better take that ostrich head out of the sand.  The Patriots have been at the top of the second tier of teams since 2004.....and have basically performed much like the Colts of old. Win lots of regular season games.....lose big games in the playoffs.

     

    Here's what bothers most of us fans who are in the middle and like to discuss different things on this board - are fans like you who actually think they're a better brand of fan. Think about it.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Which team's fans would you trade places with if you could replace your memory of ever being a Patriot fan? Baltimore? One title 12 years ago, also ran ever since. Pittsburgh, two titles in the 00s is very nice, but they don't contend every year like the Pats. Ditto Giants.  You whine when the Pats lose in the CG, what would you be saying this year if you were a Giant fan? "Well, we will always have last year even if we can't ever seem to win 10 games in a mediocre division."

    So who is it?  San Fran?  Nice team now, but about 15 years of futility after they last were good.  Green Bay?  Good choice, but would you be thrilled with the way they've finished recently?  Houston, Denver?  

    I'm OK with what we got. Yeah, I'd like them to close the deal one of these years and I'm confident they will.  Wouldn't trade the last 11 years for any of those teams.

     




    Would you trade the last 6 years for the Giants' last 6? The last 8 for the Steelers' last 8? The last 3 for the Packers last 3? I would.

     

     



    Would you trade it with the Chargers last 8,Jets last 8.Buffalo's last 8,Kansas City,Seattle,Dallas? 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to mrmojo1120's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Which team's fans would you trade places with if you could replace your memory of ever being a Patriot fan? Baltimore? One title 12 years ago, also ran ever since. Pittsburgh, two titles in the 00s is very nice, but they don't contend every year like the Pats. Ditto Giants.  You whine when the Pats lose in the CG, what would you be saying this year if you were a Giant fan? "Well, we will always have last year even if we can't ever seem to win 10 games in a mediocre division."

    So who is it?  San Fran?  Nice team now, but about 15 years of futility after they last were good.  Green Bay?  Good choice, but would you be thrilled with the way they've finished recently?  Houston, Denver?  

    I'm OK with what we got. Yeah, I'd like them to close the deal one of these years and I'm confident they will.  Wouldn't trade the last 11 years for any of those teams.

     




    Would you trade the last 6 years for the Giants' last 6? The last 8 for the Steelers' last 8? The last 3 for the Packers last 3? I would.

     

     

     



    Would you trade it with the Chargers last 8,Jets last 8.Buffalo's last 8,Kansas City,Seattle,Dallas? 

     




    How many more SBs have we won than those teams in the last 8 years? If the answer is zero I would trade it. At least we would have had some good draft picks for the nothing we have won. I could care less about winning divisions or conferences.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:


    How many more SBs have we won than those teams in the last 8 years? If the answer is zero I would trade it. At least we would have had some good draft picks for the nothing we have won. I could care less about winning divisions or conferences.



    That is easy to say now.  It has been a while since we've had a losing season around here.  I know you've been around for a while, but I refuse to believe this is true.  Hell I thought the Sox last season were way more painful than any of the years they made the playoffs and didn't win the WS.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Inokea4coolaid's comment:

     

    Here's what bothers most of us fans who are in the middle and like to discuss different things on this board - are fans like you who actually think they're a better brand of fan. Think about it.



    This is an excellent point.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to mrmojo1120's comment:

    Would you trade it with the Chargers last 8,Jets last 8.Buffalo's last 8,Kansas City,Seattle,Dallas? 





    "If you only compare yourself to losers, you'll end up a loser"

    -anonymous

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     


    How many more SBs have we won than those teams in the last 8 years? If the answer is zero I would trade it. At least we would have had some good draft picks for the nothing we have won. I could care less about winning divisions or conferences.

     



    That is easy to say now.  It has been a while since we've had a losing season around here.  I know you've been around for a while, but I refuse to believe this is true.  Hell I thought the Sox last season were way more painful than any of the years they made the playoffs and didn't win the WS.

     




    MLB and the NFL are entirely different animals. There is virtually no reward for losing in MLB. The NFL is 85% dependant on the draft to build teams. Might as well loseevery game if you aren't going to win the SB. Those are just the facts of life.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

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    In response to BabeParilli's comment:



    Might as well loseevery game if you aren't going to win the SB. Those are just the facts of life.



    Up until this last draft you think having to hand out a huge guaranteed contract to a potential bust was some huge boon?  Drafting in the top 5 was more of a burden than anything until recently imo because if you missed you were screwed from a cap perspective for a long time.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mrmojo1120. Show mrmojo1120's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     


    How many more SBs have we won than those teams in the last 8 years? If the answer is zero I would trade it. At least we would have had some good draft picks for the nothing we have won. I could care less about winning divisions or conferences.

     



    That is easy to say now.  It has been a while since we've had a losing season around here.  I know you've been around for a while, but I refuse to believe this is true.  Hell I thought the Sox last season were way more painful than any of the years they made the playoffs and didn't win the WS.

     

     




    MLB and the NFL are entirely different animals. There is virtually no reward for losing in MLB. The NFL is 85% dependant on the draft to build teams. Might as well loseevery game if you aren't going to win the SB. Those are just the facts of life.

     



    I guess it depends on your point of view.I like watching a team I've been a fan for a lot of losing seasons finally getting a run of 12 years where they may win it all every year.Back in the 70's and 80's,you knew going into the season thae Pats didn't have a chance to do anything,so for me,this is a great change and I appreciate it.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to mrmojo1120's comment:

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     


    How many more SBs have we won than those teams in the last 8 years? If the answer is zero I would trade it. At least we would have had some good draft picks for the nothing we have won. I could care less about winning divisions or conferences.

     



    That is easy to say now.  It has been a while since we've had a losing season around here.  I know you've been around for a while, but I refuse to believe this is true.  Hell I thought the Sox last season were way more painful than any of the years they made the playoffs and didn't win the WS.

     

     




    MLB and the NFL are entirely different animals. There is virtually no reward for losing in MLB. The NFL is 85% dependant on the draft to build teams. Might as well loseevery game if you aren't going to win the SB. Those are just the facts of life.

     

     



    I guess it depends on your point of view.I like watching a team I've been a fan for a lot of losing seasons finally getting a run of 12 years where they may win it all every year.Back in the 70's and 80's,you knew going into the season thae Pats didn't have a chance to do anything,so for me,this is a great change and I appreciate it.

     




    I appreciate 2001, 2003 and 2004. The rest mean the same to me as 1990 other than getting far worse draft picks than then.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    Has success really left you people this warped?

    Reaching the conference championship game or losing the Super Bowl is the same thing as going 1-15?  In fact, in your convoluted logic 1-15 is better because they get a high draft pick. Yippee, we win April, we get Drew Bledsoe and now we can maybe one day be truly mediocre.    

    This is a perfect illustration of the unparalleled success of this team and just how truly spoiled some fans are. Now, we'd rather have high draft picks than win 80% of the games they play and play in Super Bowls, go 18-1, 13-3, etc.

    Obviously high draft picks always assure success, just look at Cleveland.

    I think Kraft should fire Belichick and trade Brady because clearly they'll never do well in the draft with them around.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    I agree with Muz on this.  The team has been a fabulous team to watch for over a decade.  There's frustration, of course, with not winning the big one recently, but I actually like to watch football, and we have had lots of great football games for more than a decade in New England.  As a season ticket holder, I spend a few thousand dollars on regular season games every year--I want those games to be competitive and interesting just as much as I want to win.  I don't think winning the Super Bowl is all that counts.  Sure, I want that too, but to me it's way more important to see good football on a regular basis, all season long. The Pats have delivered that like no other team in history. I appreciate that and it's the main reason I keep buying those tickets even though I now live in Canada and not Boston. 

     

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to Inokea4coolaid's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ...But understand this, they're still one of the best teams in football and will be again next year.  Life goes on. They will rise again.

    Stay proud Ostriches. Remember this, flightless birds never crash. 

    "If you're going through hell, keep going." -- Churchill

     



    Hmmm, interesting.  The only thing I would say is that maybe u'd better take that ostrich head out of the sand.  The Patriots have been at the top of the second tier of teams since 2004.....and have basically performed much like the Colts of old. Win lots of regular season games.....lose big games in the playoffs.

    Here's what bothers most of us fans who are in the middle and like to discuss different things on this board - are fans like you who actually think they're a better brand of fan. Think about it.



    When I read a post like this I feel like I'm in a parallel reality or some such thing.

    Define "second tier."  They came within one fluke play of having the greatest season in NFL history, the've set team and individual records galore.  106-37, including playoffs since 2004. Came within a few points of winning two Super Bowls and making it to a third. 

    Who's in the first tier?  San Fran, they haven't won anything since the mid-90s. Baltimore won once in 2000. Teams make great playoff runs and then fade back to mediocrity, very few are consistent winners year after year.

    And your last paragraph? Huh? What's a fan in the middle? You should change your screen name to Malcolm.   

    I said in the first post, talk all you want about ways to improve the team. It clearly needs changes in key positions and I'm not ignoring any of that. The defense is still a work in progress (although they seemed to be performing fine before Talib went out). Need a better pass rush, better secondary play, speed/size at receiver, better return game.  

    What's this "better brand of fan" reference? I said that if you're a Patriot fan you're better than trolls. I stand by that. I may disagree profoundly with you or Babe or whoever, but you're still 1000% better than the trolls, i.e., fans of other teams that only come here to stir the pot. Screw them. Better yet, ignore them.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PATSthebest. Show PATSthebest's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    Having so much emotion invested in the PATS its not unusual for fans to come out and say how they feel. Wether it's constructive critsism or off the wall comments, there is deep hearted feelings teid up in this team and what it means to each of us. When my wife is mad at me I sleep and eat just fine, I know time will pass. When the PATS lose I can't sleep, eat and watch ESPN till the next game. Growing up through Plunkett, Grogan etc. there has been much pain, I just want this ride to continue. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    If you listen you can hear the sound of entitled, spoiled moaners... little to no perspective at all.

    Get a grip Nancies... go root for somebody else, you're an embarrassment.  The funniest part is people act like it's an easy thing to win a game in the NFL, even easier to win a title...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ostrich Society Response

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    Well in truth they DID lose because of the Ron Braces, Butlers, and Chungs of the world, because when our starters went down...the thing we are suppossed to be so well built for (depth, value, quality, spreading of the wealth, roster well stocked from top to bottom, our next guy is not that fare off from our other guy) went BOOM!!

    RESPONSE; Ostrich Society members refuse to face reality, acknowledge when the Patriots make a mistake, or get criticized for poor play, or not wanting to win badly enough. Their response to your criticism about BB's bad draft pick is typical, "Other teams make mistakes, too." I've been ripped for pointing out that Chung had issues in pass coverage, almost from the get-go...and for pointing out the obvious...that both Brace and Butler were busts. I tire of the defensive posture of the Society members, any time that the Pats get criticized. Facts are facts. BB is a great coach. But, as a GM, his job is not to "do his best". His job is to get it right. When he gets it wrong, the team suffers. As a result, the Pats have had a bunch of free agents and low round draft choices patroling in their secondary. They would have never gotten as far as they did this year, without the Talib acquisition. But, when Talib went down, so did the secondary...and the Patriots. That said, every tteam has certain key players that it relies on, who cannot be adequately replaced. To win a championship,a team must be both good, and lucky. The Pats haven't been lucky over the past two years, with injuries. Perhaps the time has come to re-evaluate their medical staff, and their off-season conditioning programs for their players. Too many injuries occurred this season.           

    We signed 15 tight ends this off season because the position was so important to us...we even carried one on the pup for 8 weeeks...none of them could play. How much did we spend this year on back up tight ends? Four million? More?

    RESPONSE: Amen.

    Hey, we are lucky to of had the run we have had over the last 12 years, but mistakes have been made. We got punched in the face at home by a team that was old and tired. Our depth was tested...it failed miserably. We still have 3-4 million on the cap that we didn't spend this year...how did that help us? Maybe we can use some of that cash next year for more backups that will crap their pants in the playoffs?

    RESPONSE:  The Ravens are old, but not tired. They were in great shape...and it appeared that they wanted it more than the Pats did.  




     
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