Our defensive front 7

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from Harleyroadking-11. Show Harleyroadking-11's posts

    Our defensive front 7

    Ty Warren~ ?  coming off surgery 
    Vince~ all pro
    Brace~? needs to improve greatly
    .......
    TBC~no
    Mayo~stud
    Spikes!stud
    Cunningham/Guyton~ no

    Going into this draft this area was THEE most major concern and AGAIN it was not addressed please tell me someone is in the works as far free agents or something.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptainZdeno33. Show CaptainZdeno33's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    Not sure why you're saying no about Cunningham but I feel your pain. Hopefully they will have a lot more depth with a healthy Mike Wright, Myron Pryor, Brace and Warren. Don't forget they signed Stroud too. Noone that gets after the qb very well but maybe they have something planned for free agency/via trade when all of this cr@p gets settled once and for all. I'll reserve judgement until the 53 man roster is set 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    That's a little pessimistic, but the edges certainly have question marks. TBC is a third down rush guy who is average in that capacity. Cunningham looked like a backup last season, but could develop. 

    I don't know why people keep listing (randomly) Guyton as an OLB. He has played like three snaps in a pinch there. Nink and Moore are ahead of him on the depth chart. Guyton is a 43 sub and sometime nickel sub inside

    I think NE is thinking of a rotation like ...

    Brace/Wright
    Fork
    Warren/Stroud/G. Warren

    Cunningham
    Mayo
    Spikes
    Nink/TBC

    Still weak on the edge, and with a bit of a question mark in Ty Warren. I think if Ty comes back full force it looks a lot better. Any extra development from Cunningham improves it ... but playing like 45% of the snaps and coming away with only one sack isn't something that gives you hope. 

    At the least, a position of weakness is improved ...

    McCourty
    Meri
    Chung
    Ras-I Dowling
    Bodden

    is potentially much better than ...

    McCourty
    Meri
    Chung
    Wilhite
    Arrington/Butler
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    We've got something like 8 gazillion front-seven players on our roster now and I'm sure BB will pick up another 1 or 2 gazillion once rookie and veteran free agency begins.  The question is, though, can any more than one of them pass for a half-way respectable OLB?

    Here's the current list: 
    • Cunningham
    • Carter
    • Moore
    • Cohen
    • Favorite 
    • Love
    • Deaderick
    • T. Warren
    • Wilfork
    • G. Warren
    • Wright
    • Brace
    • Pryor
    • Richard
    • Stroud
    • Murrell
    • Ninkovich
    • Fletcher
    • White
    • Banta-Cain
    • Guyton
    • Mayo
    • Spikes

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Harleyroadking-11. Show Harleyroadking-11's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    maybe if we line all of them up at the same time one of them could get to the QB
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    maybe if we line all of them up at the same time one of them could get to the QB
    Posted by Harleyroadking-11



    There's a chance if the TE doesn't stay in to block.  
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I disagree about Cunningham. He was a different player before he hurt his calf. Regardless, judging a rookie OLB who was a college DE on his first year is not good business. I'm sure LaMarr Woodley, James Harrison, and a lot of other probowl talent looked like backups their first year too. It's a tough position to transition to. How long did it take Vrabel to even get a chance?

    He very easily could've had 4 or so sacks. He pressured manning into that game ending INT, he had sanchez but was face masked, and I remember several other plays where he was very close. He did apply some pressure and did a good job of setting the edges. I don't think we'll see 14 sacks from him, but he could easily have 8 or so with solid improvement.

    If Cunningham can make a similar jump as Chung then he's a very good OLB. 

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    That's a little pessimistic, but the edges certainly have question marks. TBC is a third down rush guy who is average in that capacity. Cunningham looked like a backup last season, but could develop.  I don't know why people keep listing (randomly) Guyton as an OLB. He has played like three snaps in a pinch there. Nink and Moore are ahead of him on the depth chart. Guyton is a 43 sub and sometime nickel sub inside .  I think NE is thinking of a rotation like ... Brace/Wright Fork Warren/Stroud/G. Warren Cunningham Mayo Spikes Nink/TBC Still weak on the edge, and with a bit of a question mark in Ty Warren. I think if Ty comes back full force it looks a lot better. Any extra development from Cunningham improves it ... but playing like 45% of the snaps and coming away with only one sack isn't something that gives you hope.  At the least, a position of weakness is improved ... McCourty Meri Chung Ras-I Dowling Bodden is potentially much better than ... McCourty Meri Chung Wilhite Arrington/Butler
    Posted by zbellino

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I also thought brace played well on first and second down. I think the big drawback to the guys they have now at DE are they aren't duel threats. It's possible BB didn't see anyone he liked as much in the draft.

    In Response to Our defensive front 7:
    Ty Warren~ ?  coming off surgery  Vince~ all pro Brace~? needs to improve greatly ....... TBC~no Mayo~stud Spikes!stud Cunningham/Guyton~ no Going into this draft this area was THEE most major concern and AGAIN it was not addressed please tell me someone is in the works as far free agents or something.
    Posted by Harleyroadking-11

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from ZachRudy. Show ZachRudy's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    Before the draft Bill mentioned that he liked what he had at line backer.  Apparently he meant it.  I think Dane Fletcher could be an option on the edge this year, at least on third downs.  Fletcher is a good tackler, possesses good speed and has good explosion.  His weight and strength will determine is he can hold up against the run better this year.

    Eric Moore looked good in limited snaps last year.  I did not see him drop back into coverage a lot last year so I doubt he is an every down option either.  We shall see, hopefully these guys have used the off season to try and develop. 

    I am sad the Pats didn't draft Herzlich in the 7th.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    I disagree about Cunningham. He was a different player before he hurt his calf. Regardless, judging a rookie OLB who was a college DE on his first year is not good business. I'm sure LaMarr Woodley, James Harrison, and a lot of other probowl talent looked like backups their first year too. It's a tough position to transition to. How long did it take Vrabel to even get a chance? He very easily could've had 4 or so sacks. He pressured manning into that game ending INT, he had sanchez but was face masked, and I remember several other plays where he was very close. He did apply some pressure and did a good job of setting the edges. I don't think we'll see 14 sacks from him, but he could easily have 8 or so with solid improvement. If Cunningham can make a similar jump as Chung then he's a very good OLB.  In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 :
    Posted by Rockdog1293000

    My expectations are tempered Rockdog, but it is still too early to call him a bust. 

    But he is behind the curve IMO. Most people who play half time rookie season get about 4-8 sacks. Tamba Hali, Woodley, Ware, Dumervil, Shaun Phillips, and a huge list of pass rushers. They surely had "almost sacks" too, like you are talking about with the facemask. So you can't count 'almost sacks.' 

    He did draw a holding penalty twice, which is good. 

    But he never flashed dominance. Maybe he improves ... but his rookie season was 'meh.' Not terrible, but nothing that looked like he will be a force. 

    IMO, it is as off to say he looked great for a rookie as it would be to say he is a bust this prematurely. He didn't look great at any time, otherwise NE's pass rush would have been better. But he is a rookie, so he obviously could get better. 

    Chung made some really awesome plays his rookie season at a roster spot where it is harder to see playing time. He actually did have moments where he gave an indication of the kind of player he could become. I am actually excited about year three for him too. 

    Just my 2 cents. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    Before the draft Bill mentioned that he liked what he had at line backer.  Apparently he meant it.  I think Dane Fletcher could be an option on the edge this year, at least on third downs.  Fletcher is a good tackler, possesses good speed and has good explosion.  His weight and strength will determine is he can hold up against the run better this year. Eric Moore looked good in limited snaps last year.  I did not see him drop back into coverage a lot last year so I doubt he is an every down option either.  We shall see, hopefully these guys have used the off season to try and develop.  I am sad the Pats didn't draft Herzlich in the 7th.
    Posted by ZachRudy

    I take a small amount of consolation in that. Maybe Bill thinks they were developing. I don't know. It is tough to tell when you only get to see 16 plays or so of a guy, and don't look at practice, and only have a little idea as to his specific responsibilities on a given play. So I have hope in Bill's take.

    They looked hopeless and powerless against the Mark Sanchez force in the playoffs. I think I saw the Sanchize reading Tolstoy for a minute back there. 

    Hopefully, Ras-I proves me wrong, and NE at least has a great 3CB package out there next season. That and maybe a little improvement/development in the OLB spot will make the 3rd down issue better. 
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjoseph. Show nyjoseph's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I dunno.

    BB told us in advance it was a deep draft for precisely the defensive help we needed.

    http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f83cb3/Bill-Belichick-1-on-1

    Then he decided to avoid addressing these needs until the late rounds.  There are very few Tom Brady-type gems on the discount counter on Day 3 of the draft.

    I expect to see a lot of FAs in camp once the labor issue is resolved.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from artielang. Show artielang's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    RDE - i think deaderick and love are both ahead of brace on the depth chart right now. if brace shows up to training camp out of shape like he did the past two seasons he's getting cut. even if he does make it, he's really played very poorly for the most part. stroud is there for depth and veteran leadership. he looked pretty washed last season. may not make the team.
    NG - this is a strength obviously. big vince and then pryor is a good penetrator on 3rd down.
    LDE - ty warren's recovery could be the key to the defense. if he can play the way he used to, then at least teams cant run at his side and he can tie up the offensive line for the LB's to make plays. wright is a eally great guy to have coming off the bench, but his health is in major question due to the concussion that kept him out half the season.
    ILB - again, up the middle we are stacked. behind mayo and spikes are guyton and fletcher, who is very intruiging. this could be one area of unexpected pass pressure.
    OLB - huge question marks. cunningham will hold down one side. he looked as good as a rookie LB in our offense that missed the entire preseason could look. he could use a few more pass rush moves but he's our premier LB. my only concern with him is durability. nink is the starter on the other side by default. he's an effort guy but cant provide consistent pressure and cant consistently set the edge. he'd be great as a bench guy, not as a starter. sub rushers are banta-cain and moore. ouch.
    so as you can see...its a solid base. but this front 7 is crying out for a starting OLB and a starting RDE. and one sub rusher who can really get after it. the depth is there but the elite talent is not. 2 draft picks could have meant a lot to this defense. now we just have to hope for some sort of free agent miracle. 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    I dunno. BB told us in advance it was a deep draft for precisely the defensive help we needed. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-draft/09000d5d81f83cb3/Bill-Belichick-1-on-1 Then he decided to avoid addressing these needs until the late rounds.  There are very few Tom Brady-type gems on the discount counter on Day 3 of the draft. I expect to see a lot of FAs in camp once the labor issue is resolved.
    Posted by nyjoseph

    He also said the tale of the draft is told by how well teams evaluate these types of players. He even mentioned Koa Misi, someone I liked last draft, as a success story. 

    Yet, again .... too gunshy to pull the trigger I guess. I dunno. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    They can't pressure the opponent's QB - it's too soft a defense.  BB refuses to be creative and blitz to overcome that softness.

    And now, he apparently refuses to bring in help.

    Maybe they will play 6 CBs and hope to cover for 7 - 9 seconds every down.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Pancakespwn. Show Pancakespwn's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    Bill is basically saying he trusts and likes what Cunningham, and Ninkovich are doing right now. I like Cunningham a lot and I think Ninkovich is a fine role player. 


     I wish they got someone to get rid of Tully as hes a one trick pony that really isn't good at that one trick.


     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjoseph. Show nyjoseph's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Our defensive front 7:
    Spikes!stud
    Posted by Harleyroadking-11


    Um, maybe in time, but not now.  Let's hope he's put his off-field issues in the rear-view mirror.  The timing of his suspension probably hurt a lot, given his lack of production in the playoff loss.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I don't know, but I think Brace and Deadrick are both probably above Love. Love started playing against GB when Brace and Deadrick were hurt (and didn't play so well at first). I would say if any of them improve in the pass rush area then that would be what separates them.

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    RDE - i think deaderick and love are both ahead of brace on the depth chart right now. if brace shows up to training camp out of shape like he did the past two seasons he's getting cut. even if he does make it, he's really played very poorly for the most part. stroud is there for depth and veteran leadership. he looked pretty washed last season. may not make the team. NG - this is a strength obviously. big vince and then pryor is a good penetrator on 3rd down. LDE - ty warren's recovery could be the key to the defense. if he can play the way he used to, then at least teams cant run at his side and he can tie up the offensive line for the LB's to make plays. wright is a eally great guy to have coming off the bench, but his health is in major question due to the concussion that kept him out half the season. ILB - again, up the middle we are stacked. behind mayo and spikes are guyton and fletcher, who is very intruiging. this could be one area of unexpected pass pressure. OLB - huge question marks. cunningham will hold down one side. he looked as good as a rookie LB in our offense that missed the entire preseason could look. he could use a few more pass rush moves but he's our premier LB. my only concern with him is durability. nink is the starter on the other side by default. he's an effort guy but cant provide consistent pressure and cant consistently set the edge. he'd be great as a bench guy, not as a starter. sub rushers are banta-cain and moore. ouch. so as you can see...its a solid base. but this front 7 is crying out for a starting OLB and a starting RDE. and one sub rusher who can really get after it. the depth is there but the elite talent is not. 2 draft picks could have meant a lot to this defense. now we just have to hope for some sort of free agent miracle. 
    Posted by artielang

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Gulo. Show Gulo's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    dont count out Kyle Love and Brandon Deaderick on the D line, they both played pretty well end of last year.  i think that belicheck trusts these guys, thats why we didnt draft any "improvements" high

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rockdog1293000. Show Rockdog1293000's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I think it's way too early to call him a bust. I remember Chung making one explosive play his rookie year when he drilled the bills QB and was called for a BS personal foul but I think it's easier to remember him more fondly now that we know he's a player. I remember JC making some pretty good plays against the Jets (second game) and the ravens. Instead of saying he didn't dominate I would just say he didn't flash nearly enough, but I'm holding out hope that he'll develop into a player next year. My worry is that a lot of progress might be lost if he's not working on his craft (has anyone seen the videos of Gronk this offseason?) and not getting better.

    I'd also say safety and OLB are both hard positions to see PT. Chung played safety in college while JC didn't even play OLB so I'm just being a little more measured about any OLB.

    In the end BB decided not to pick any top end front 7 players so hopefully that means he has confidence in these young guys.

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 : My expectations are tempered Rockdog, but it is still too early to call him a bust.  But he is behind the curve IMO. Most people who play half time rookie season get about 4-8 sacks. Tamba Hali, Woodley, Ware, Dumervil, Shaun Phillips, and a huge list of pass rushers. They surely had "almost sacks" too, like you are talking about with the facemask. So you can't count 'almost sacks.'  He did draw a holding penalty twice, which is good.  But he never flashed dominance. Maybe he improves ... but his rookie season was 'meh.' Not terrible, but nothing that looked like he will be a force.  IMO, it is as off to say he looked great for a rookie as it would be to say he is a bust this prematurely. He didn't look great at any time, otherwise NE's pass rush would have been better. But he is a rookie, so he obviously could get better.  Chung made some really awesome plays his rookie season at a roster spot where it is harder to see playing time. He actually did have moments where he gave an indication of the kind of player he could become. I am actually excited about year three for him too.  Just my 2 cents. 
    Posted by zbellino

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from kebbe. Show kebbe's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

               Many bring up how the Pats ignored Matthews and he certainly has proven he can generate a pass rush when freed up to do so and is a true force in that regard(he does have some difficulty setting the end on occasion,but they'll take given his ability to hassle the QB).However,if you look at all the names the talking heads and fans coveted at OLB in a 3-4 defense(especially those who had to make the move from DE to OLB in a 3-4 scheme)prior to last years draft,most had problems adjusting and some simply couldn't play at all.Cunningham,if you recall,missed all of training camp for all intents and purposes,and was making strides game to game before a lower leg injury slowed him down.The Pats certainly brought in a high number of those DE's who projected as OLB's in this year's draft,interviewed them,worked them out and did not go after them(though Kerrigan was a non-consideration for medical reasons,a brain problem and Bowers slipped a ton because of persistent knee problems)so obviously he found the others lacking in one repect or another.Could one of them excel in a 3-4,sure(and if one does I'll wager it's the young man from Missouri and he went very early despite some questions about his intensity),of course,but there no certainty and Smith was a mid round pick.Miller is just to small to play in the Pats version of the 3-4.So,it isn't a major shock that B.B.avoided them in the first three rounds but I would have thought one have intrigued him late 2nd-early 3rd.What does confuse me is selecting two RB's(Vereen and Ridley,both of whom have talent and versitility but also possess similar skill sets,I like them both but one was enough.Cannon,good willing his cancer is curable and won't jeopardize his career and if it is handled he's a steal in the 5th and the TE could be the in-line blocker that Crumpler is an free up Hernandes to be one on of the worlds biggest WR's.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from fancy-shamanski. Show fancy-shamanski's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    I think there was plenty of talent available at OLB when they drafted  2 RBs and a QB.?????

    They also traded a 2nd and 3rd rouinder when there was good talent available at olb.

    BB is great, but he does some weird and sometimes terrible things.  '06 wr situation was terrible, also had some terrible drafts a few seasons ago.  they have a lot of young defensive players.

    Hopefully they will use the randy moss and logan mankins money to sign some serious talent at these positions....  They have before with colvin and adalius thomas
    please, if not then BB has become a liottle too self absorbed cuz what they have now will not win a SB. 
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    I think it's way too early to call him a bust. I remember Chung making one explosive play his rookie year when he drilled the bills QB and was called for a BS personal foul but I think it's easier to remember him more fondly now that we know he's a player. I remember JC making some pretty good plays against the Jets (second game) and the ravens. Instead of saying he didn't dominate I would just say he didn't flash nearly enough, but I'm holding out hope that he'll develop into a player next year. My worry is that a lot of progress might be lost if he's not working on his craft (has anyone seen the videos of Gronk this offseason?) and not getting better. I'd also say safety and OLB are both hard positions to see PT. Chung played safety in college while JC didn't even play OLB so I'm just being a little more measured about any OLB. In the end BB decided not to pick any top end front 7 players so hopefully that means he has confidence in these young guys. In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 :
    Posted by Rockdog1293000

    I'm not saying he is a bust. In fact, I said he actually played servicably. But, as you admit yourself ... he didn't look like a burgeoning star. 

    I disagree, though, about Chung. I thought that at safety, on this team wth Sanders and Meri, he played very well, and made a huge TFL, an INT, a FF, another FF that was credited to another player, two sacks, and a bunch of tackles in one third the snaps that Cunningham got. That was enough for me to say, he's on the right track. 

    Like I said about Cunningham ... not a bust, we don't know that ... but my expectations are tempered from when he came out of Florida. 

    In short, based on my vision ... I would have had no problem picking up another player if his performance last year was the bellweather. I mean Pittsburgh drafts an OLB or DE-to-convert every season in the top two (maybe three) rounds .... and people wonder why they always have one or two guys banging 10 sacks.

    And I'm not a doom&gloomer about this draft either. I question Ras-I and Ridley ... but love Vereen and Solder and Mallet. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    Before the draft Bill mentioned that he liked what he had at line backer.  Apparently he meant it.  I think Dane Fletcher could be an option on the edge this year, at least on third downs.  Fletcher is a good tackler, possesses good speed and has good explosion.  His weight and strength will determine is he can hold up against the run better this year. Eric Moore looked good in limited snaps last year.  I did not see him drop back into coverage a lot last year so I doubt he is an every down option either.  We shall see, hopefully these guys have used the off season to try and develop.  I am sad the Pats didn't draft Herzlich in the 7th.
    Posted by ZachRudy


    I agree...Fletcher is a player to watch.
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    maybe if we line all of them up at the same time one of them could get to the QB
    Posted by Harleyroadking-11


    Hahaha..hillarious!!
     
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