Our defensive front 7

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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    i think crable and or woods are in camp this year
     
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    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 : Great post! Seriously. I learned a lot there. I've kept up with the draft the past few years and I don't even pretend to know that I know how to evaluate college talent. Ultimately, I trust Belichick to...wait for it...do what's best for this football team. I saw the "pass rusher" buzzword the past few months around here and now people are disappointed in Bill Belichick and some members of the media think Belichick is losing it (wouldn't be the first time). We'll wait and see. I do know one thing: it takes 3 years to really evaluate a draft so we'll just have to see. Good post, again.
    Posted by apdynasty23[/QUOTE]

    Thanks AP.  I agree with the general consensus that the Pats could use a better pass rush, but I don't think it's really as easy as just going out and drafting some guy who was a great college pass rusher. Past drafts are littered with high-round "pass rushers" who turned out to be busts in the NFL.  Sure, some guys like DeMarcus Ware work out great, but for every Ware you can find two or three Vernon Gholstons. For the Pats the challenge is particularly great because most of the good college pass rushers are DEs, but are too small to play DE in the Pats' system, so they're going to have to be converted to OLBs--and a lot of guys just never make that transition successfully.  I suspect BB is wary about using a top pick on a guy who might end up not being able to play the position he's being drafted to fill.  Plus, BB knows that a lot of the best OLBs are lower round picks or even--like James Harrison--undrafted free agents. Given the history, I think BB ends up playing it safe and going for better bets with his high picks (like interior linemen or the OT they picked up this year) and trying to find his OLBs elsewhere.  
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7


    Not an exciting draft for us in terms of what everyone wanted including myself, but none the less fairly solid. If Ras-I and Cannon can come back and stay healthy, this draft will look good. If Ras-I is plagued by the injury bug and continues to miss more games than he plays, this draft will look bad. Similar with Cannon. I can't imagine a guy just starting chemo being able to play opening day. That is going to take a large toll on him, and he should drop 20-30 lbs in the process, which might actually make him a betterr size for guard (not wishing he loses weight of course or trying to be funny abotu it, just stating what chemo and going through this typically does to a body).

    Forget the Mallet pick. He doesn't see the field unless Brady goes down. No way he beats Brady out, and I can't see him being on the bench for 4 years. This is just a like another 3rd round that BB flips into a 2nd, just in this case the investment is 1 year longer, but the payback will be from 3rd to 1st rounder when we trade him to Minnesota or Oakland in 2013.

    Vereen is solid, as is Ridley, although not spectacular. I actually think Vereen will surpass BJGE, and we'll have a healthy rotation of Vereen, Woodhead and Ridley with BJGE being our 4th guy.

    The TE from Marshall more people are high on then me. Big deal he can block as good as Crump, people forget Crump could also catch when he came out, and was a legit blocker/catcher for some time. This kid is no Crump. He's as slow as a lineman, can block, but don't imagine he'll see many thrown his way. The only brightside here is if he is as good a blocker as some say, we can save a couple of million by cutting Crump.

    I see a lot of money possibly saved in this draft, that the Pats will use to possibly extend Mankins and pick up an FA or 2. I don't think this was by chance either. Solder for Light, Verren/Ridley we just needed, Cannon for Kaczur, Lee for Crump, TBC I think might get the axe with Fletcher/Moore possibly filling in...that is a lot of money saved that we will use to do something...the other shoe has not fallen yet, but will if FA opens up.
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 : Thanks AP.  I agree with the general consensus that the Pats could use a better pass rush, but I don't think it's really as easy as just going out and drafting some guy who was a great college pass rusher. Past drafts are littered with high-round "pass rushers" who turned out to be busts in the NFL.  Sure, some guys like DeMarcus Ware work out great, but for every Ware you can find two or three Vernon Gholstons. For the Pats the challenge is particularly great because most of the good college pass rushers are DEs, but are too small to play DE in the Pats' system, so they're going to have to be converted to OLBs--and a lot of guys just never make that transition successfully.  I suspect BB is wary about using a top pick on a guy who might end up not being able to play the position he's being drafted to fill.  Plus, BB knows that a lot of the best OLBs are lower round picks or even--like James Harrison--undrafted free agents. Given the history, I think BB ends up playing it safe and going for better bets with his high picks (like interior linemen or the OT they picked up this year) and trying to find his OLBs elsewhere.  
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

    See this argument that many high round pass rushers are busts in the Pro's is flawed because many high round DB's and WR's don't work out either but BB has taken them in the early rounds and has actually traded up to take one (Jackson). If you wanted only safe picks in the early rounds then you only take DL and OL. They are the safest picks to take but you need to take risks to get impact players. The reason I don't think BB takes pass rushers early is because he knows he is very poor at evaluating pass rushers. Lets face it with either FA or the draft BB has struggled finding good OLB's. Vrable being the best one he has found with Colvin being the next. Other then that it's been one flop after another to the point where it seems like he'd rather have low risk role playing LB's on the team then take a chance spending high (which he did with Colvin, AD, and Burgess in the past). Cunninham has shown flashes of development but he still has a long way to go and be honest does anyone think that TBC, Nin, Fletcher, or Moore can become that 7-15 sack OLB that other teams need to plan for, which we've been missing? They are very good sub players who excel in their roles but none are impact pass rushers. Of all the positions I would say that pass rushers is where BB has the most trouble with.
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 : See this argument that many high round pass rushers are busts in the Pro's is flawed because many high round DB's and WR's don't work out either but BB has taken them in the early rounds and has actually traded up to take one (Jackson). If you wanted only safe picks in the early rounds then you only take DL and OL. They are the safest picks to take but you need to take risks to get impact players. The reason I don't think BB takes pass rushers early is because he knows he is very poor at evaluating pass rushers. Lets face it with either FA or the draft BB has struggled finding good OLB's. Vrable being the best one he has found with Colvin being the next. Other then that it's been one flop after another to the point where it seems like he'd rather have low risk role playing LB's on the team then take a chance spending high (which he did with Colvin, AD, and Burgess in the past). Cunninham has shown flashes of development but he still has a long way to go and be honest does anyone think that TBC, Nin, Fletcher, or Moore can become that 7-15 sack OLB that other teams need to plan for, which we've been missing? They are very good sub players who excel in their roles but none are impact pass rushers. Of all the positions I would say that pass rushers is where BB has the most trouble with.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]


    Eng, I agree with you that draftees at other positions can be busts too--and that BB has drafted guys in other "risky" positions like WR.  I think the key difference, though, is that, when drafting "pass rushers," BB is looking for an OLB and the vast majority of the top college "pass rushers" played DE in college.  So the risk (and difficulty of evaluation) is even greater in this position because you're trying to guess if a guy who's mostly played on the line in a three-point stance is going to be able to play standing up. Also, in BB's system, the OLB really can't just pass rush--he has to be a pretty versatile player and (at least I suspect) he has to be a smart guy who can make reads quickly before committing to a pass rush. BB's not the only coach who has struggled converting college DEs to OLBs, so I'm not sure his evaluation skills are weaker than other coaches'.  I do think, however, that his system may be more demanding on the OLB than other coaches' systems--even other coaches of 3-4 teams. A guy like Adalius Thomas was a pretty effective pass rusher in the Ravens D (often rushing from the 3-4 OLB position, though also playing 4-3 DE), but he kind of fizzled in NE.  I don't think Thomas lost skills, I just think he couldn't adjust to BB's system.  I'm not sure of course, but I suspect Thomas had simpler reads in Baltimore and couldn't adapt to the complexity of BB's system. My guess is that what might look like poor evaluation of talent is really an insistence on preserving an especially complicated and demanding scheme for OLBs. Maybe BB should change his scheme a bit to create a bigger role for specialist pass rushers who don't have to be so versatile and smart, but changing one position will have an impact on a lot other positions (pass coverage schemes would have to change too), so it's maybe not quite so simple to make one change without also having to make multiple other changes which might not be as desirable.  


     
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    Pro I can agree with your statement and the only thing I can say back is that the pass rush has been broke for 3 years. If it's really a system issue where BB can't find a single player since Vrable who is able to do everything that is asked of him maybe BB is outsmarting himself. If the system is so complicated that we've gone through how many vet's, mid-late round rookies, and UDFA's and still haven't found one that fits perfectly into his puzzle that it's time to adjust that system. Lets face it Seymour, Willie Mac, Bruschi, and Vrable are rarities who if I remember right all were 43 DE's/DT's in college. BB needs to take a risk on some rookies that can translate over. I thought Cunningham was a big step forward in which he trusted that a player could make the step and I think if Cunningham came out and wow'd BB he would have taken another chance this year but since he didn't I can only assume BB is just as impressed with Cunningham as he is with Nin, Moore, Fletcher, and TBC so he felt justified in his concerns over converts. However, some of the best OLB's in the pro's started their careers as 43 college DE's so they all had to make the transition. I just think BB is afraid to take a risk with the position and would rather take low risk high reward type of guys (Crable, Guyton, McKenzie, Carter) that if they don't make it then no one will question that they didn't make it. Listen to his press conferences, he hates being questioned and if a high pick fails in NE he will get inundated with questions. As I'm sure he regrets not taken Matthews not because he became a player but that not taking him only brought more questions. It's my opinion that's part of the reason he doesn't take risks early is because he simply doesn't want to deal with the media if they don't work out (ie Maroney)
     
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    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]Pro I can agree with your statement and the only thing I can say back is that the pass rush has been broke for 3 years. If it's really a system issue where BB can't find a single player since Vrable who is able to do everything that is asked of him maybe BB is outsmarting himself. If the system is so complicated that we've gone through how many vet's, mid-late round rookies, and UDFA's and still haven't found one that fits perfectly into his puzzle that it's time to adjust that system. Lets face it Seymour, Willie Mac, Bruschi, and Vrable are rarities who if I remember right all were 43 DE's/DT's in college. BB needs to take a risk on some rookies that can translate over. I thought Cunningham was a big step forward in which he trusted that a player could make the step and I think if Cunningham came out and wow'd BB he would have taken another chance this year but since he didn't I can only assume BB is just as impressed with Cunningham as he is with Nin, Moore, Fletcher, and TBC so he felt justified in his concerns over converts. However, some of the best OLB's in the pro's started their careers as 43 college DE's so they all had to make the transition. I just think BB is afraid to take a risk with the position and would rather take low risk high reward type of guys (Crable, Guyton, McKenzie, Carter) that if they don't make it then no one will question that they didn't make it. Listen to his press conferences, he hates being questioned and if a high pick fails in NE he will get inundated with questions. As I'm sure he regrets not taken Matthews not because he became a player but that not taking him only brought more questions. It's my opinion that's part of the reason he doesn't take risks early is because he simply doesn't want to deal with the media if they don't work out (ie Maroney)
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Eng, I'm not sure BB worries about the media, but I do sometimes wonder if BB has created a scheme that just requires more from an OLB than most OLBs can provide.  If that's the case, the position is always going to be hard to fill and maybe BB should consider some adjustment to his approach.  I would love to see Matthews on this team, but sometimes I wonder whether Matthews would be nearly as effective on the Pats as he is in GB.  At GB, they free Matthews up to rush a lot.  Would BB do the same?  Or would Matthews have so much to think about and to do that he'd never get the chance to rush so effectively?  I don't know of course, but I wouldn't be totally surprised if Matthews would have struggled had he come to NE.  It would be interesting to see how Mathhews or Harrison or Woodley would do on our team.  Would they do well or would they suddenly turn into mediocre players as happened with Thomas?
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    It's a very good question truthfully.

    One player I hope to see in the Pats system that I like could be successful is Lawson. He's a player in SF that was asked to not only rush but cover and set the edge. He is an all around OLB that has the coveted size BB looks for (maybe needs to add a little weight). He won't be a high sack guy but I think he's a TBC with higher upside.
     
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    Yeah, Lawson seems to be a nice player.  I haven't seen SF play too much, but from what I know he does seem to be a good fit for the Pats too.  Is he a free agent?
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7 : See this argument that many high round pass rushers are busts in the Pro's is flawed because many high round DB's and WR's don't work out either but BB has taken them in the early rounds and has actually traded up to take one (Jackson). If you wanted only safe picks in the early rounds then you only take DL and OL. They are the safest picks to take but you need to take risks to get impact players. The reason I don't think BB takes pass rushers early is because he knows he is very poor at evaluating pass rushers. Lets face it with either FA or the draft BB has struggled finding good OLB's. Vrable being the best one he has found with Colvin being the next. Other then that it's been one flop after another to the point where it seems like he'd rather have low risk role playing LB's on the team then take a chance spending high (which he did with Colvin, AD, and Burgess in the past). Cunninham has shown flashes of development but he still has a long way to go and be honest does anyone think that TBC, Nin, Fletcher, or Moore can become that 7-15 sack OLB that other teams need to plan for, which we've been missing? They are very good sub players who excel in their roles but none are impact pass rushers. Of all the positions I would say that pass rushers is where BB has the most trouble with.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    thanks eng,
    very observant! and saying it like it is (while most no one else will) post!
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    In Response to Re: Our defensive front 7:
    [QUOTE]Pro I can agree with your statement and the only thing I can say back is that the pass rush has been broke for 3 years. If it's really a system issue where BB can't find a single player since Vrable who is able to do everything that is asked of him maybe BB is outsmarting himself. If the system is so complicated that we've gone through how many vet's, mid-late round rookies, and UDFA's and still haven't found one that fits perfectly into his puzzle that it's time to adjust that system. Lets face it Seymour, Willie Mac, Bruschi, and Vrable are rarities who if I remember right all were 43 DE's/DT's in college. BB needs to take a risk on some rookies that can translate over. I thought Cunningham was a big step forward in which he trusted that a player could make the step and I think if Cunningham came out and wow'd BB he would have taken another chance this year but since he didn't I can only assume BB is just as impressed with Cunningham as he is with Nin, Moore, Fletcher, and TBC so he felt justified in his concerns over converts. However, some of the best OLB's in the pro's started their careers as 43 college DE's so they all had to make the transition. I just think BB is afraid to take a risk with the position and would rather take low risk high reward type of guys (Crable, Guyton, McKenzie, Carter) that if they don't make it then no one will question that they didn't make it. Listen to his press conferences, he hates being questioned and if a high pick fails in NE he will get inundated with questions. As I'm sure he regrets not taken Matthews not because he became a player but that not taking him only brought more questions. It's my opinion that's part of the reason he doesn't take risks early is because he simply doesn't want to deal with the media if they don't work out (ie Maroney)
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    eng,
    "It's my opinion that's part of the reason he doesn't take risks early is because he simply doesn't want to deal with the media if they don't work out (ie Maroney) "
     
    i pointed to that as ONE of the reasons as well, on the mb draft thread.
     
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    Re: Our defensive front 7

    A couple of free agents and they will be fine
     
    here's a good site for FA targets

     
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