Parcells Quits Yet Again

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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]And why didn't Bellichick take that job? Because he knew he couldn't follow the master, his mentor.
    Posted by JintsFan[/QUOTE]

    Flat out, incorrect and FALSE.

    That's the NY media's take on it and every single person from the NY region says the same thing, which is hilarious.  I find it fascinating how people in this country will desperately look for a way to support their opinion even if it's factually incorrect.

    Your comment is another example. 

    Look at the myriad of sourced offerings on this part of the history and you'll read about how BB did not want to be and the fact that Tuna's own contract automatically made BB the coach of the Jets with the Tuna quitting so suddenly, yet again.

    Translation?  BB had to accept the title as coach before resigning.  Legally.

    BB didn't want to be a puppet and not have GM control.  Pretty simple, dude.

    He already did that in Cleveland and saw how it affected his ability to implement philosophy, control and shaping of the Browns.  Modell's meddling and scapegoating backfired and it clearly wasn't a good match for the time and between he and Modell.

    I think it's funny Parcells thought he could control Belichick for another 20 years in this league, too.  Sure, Tuna.  Just assume you think you can dictate repeatedly, when everyone with a brain now knows BB made you, not the other way around.   BB was Tuna's security blanket. FACT.

    BB called his bluff and left him hanging the bag, which really, any single one of us would have done after TWENTY FIVE YEARS IN AN INDUSTRY.  TWENTY-FIVE YEARS.

    I am pretty sure the preeminent defensive mind with 25 yeara of NFL service deserved a shot with the whole kitchen sink behind him.

    Belichick knew if he had control and backing from ownership, he'd be successful.

    Hess was dying and BB was going to be under Parcells's control from a personnel standpoint.  So, he had a new owner coming (Now the clueless Woody Johnson) and a mess of a front office infrastructure on the heels of the new ownership change. 

    BB proved everyone wrong and since then has completely exposed the myth that Parcells made BB. It's unequivocally the other way around.

    Fact.
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again : Though well-written and somewhat logical, the premise is a mite specious. Can I please see some of these "sourced offerings"? Even then, I will have to consider the source-as you probably correctly did re: the take of the New York media and New York fans. I have never read nor heard much to change my take on the whole Bellichick/Parcells Jets fiasco. And the press in NY never did like Parcells very much (he tolerated them more than anything) so they would not go out of their way to write anything casting him in a favorable light. Do keep in mind that Parcells turned around Dallas and Miami (then handed the reins over or moved upstairs as is his wont) without Bellichick, nor did he ever have a QB the quality of Tom Brady in his entire coaching career; Phil Simms was the only top level QB he coached while winning two SB's and another conference title. But those are sideline points, really. The only point I stand by is that a lot of what Bellichick does re: drafting talent, handling the press, motivating players, etc...he got from his time (by your own point 20 plus years) from watching and learning from Parcells. As did other coaches: Fox, Coughlin, Crennel, Weiss (I am missing one other one). The coaching trees of Parcells and Walsh have been very fruitful for the NFL-and that includes Bellichick, of course.
    Posted by JintsFan[/QUOTE]

    Sure.  Education of a Coach by Michael Halberstam, Patriot Reign by Michael Holley and Pats Management Secrets Vol 1 and 2. I am not going to get the books, find the info and scan it for you. Just get the books or go into the chapters that talk about this period.

    I believe they all source that February 2000 situation very well, especially the former two books I just mentioned.

    Parcells's contract specifically stated that when he resigned as coach, BB automatically becomes head coach.

    Whether BB knew if Parcells was made GM from that, I am not sure that portion of info was ever unveiled.

    Belichick may have borrowed some stuff from Parcells, sure.  I don't doubt that. But, the crux of BB's genius is in no way rooted by tagging behind Parcells for 15 years in NY, NE or NY again.

    And as mentioned repeatedly, this conversation was centered around their roles as GMs.

    BB blows Parcells out of the water.  Anyone can "turn around" a 1-15 team or a 4-12 Pats team.

    The lone common denominator is that none of Parcells's teams whether as coach in Dallas or a GM in Miami, have done anything remotely notable without BB as coordinator.

    Has he? No.  Saying he turned around Miami is completely shortshighted.  He improved them from 1-15. Ok.  Great job.

    I might even argue Parcells quit in February of 1991 because BB was being given a lot of money to finally be a head coach, and was concerned about his aging defense and didn't want his rep tarnished by waiting to rebuild with the Giants.

    Yup.

    People say BB has a large ego and I just don't see it, especially compared to Parcells.

    The two are so different.  The second the fire gets hot, Parcells runs.
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again : BTW, I really don't think it's only "people in this country" who "see things as they want"; I believe that's called human nature and probably happens in one or two other places, huh?
    Posted by JintsFan[/QUOTE]

    Yes, but I think it's more common here because of the amount of news feeds we get in this society.


     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    No, but he had them going in the right direction. That was a longer build at the dawn of the cap era and Modell couldn't/didn't want to wait. 

    You just can't stay out of this thread as a troll, can you, Phatty?

    Not being successful (playoff appearances) with a first attempt as coach with limited control as GM,  in a mess of a situation is not the same thing of at least knowing you had the right approach.

    BB was right when he wanted to bench Kosar when Modell did not. Wasn't he?

    We've been over this before, Phat boy.  BB didn't succeed, but he set the bar for how to approach managing a team in the cap era, starting in 1993.

    That's not debatable.

    Maybe if Modell didn't meddle he would have succeeded? Yup.

    YOu think Schottenheimer quit in Cleveland because he had a loaded team in 1991? That was one of the oldest teams in football with a slew of bloaded contracts, hence why BB was brought in.  Unload the fat and start over.

    You have this bad habit of excluding contexts. The Browns missed their window from 1986-1990.  Missed it.  Two AFC Title choke jobs a la the NY Jets of today and then it all went poof.

    Considering the playoffs came in 1994 for the Browns, 3 seasons in, that means he had it going in the right direction.  At least to rational/logical people it means that.

    Learn the facts, Corky.  Modell tried to control BB in Cleveland and would not listen.

    When the history books are written and everyone scrambles around trying to praise Parcells, Polian, MIke Holmgren, Ron Wolf, Ozzie Newsome, Bill Cowher, Tony Dungy or any other higher profile GM or coach in this era, the person who will have the most impressive resume is Bill Belichick.

    From the GM seat, Polian would be second. I hate Polian, but even he gets it more than Parcells ever did with regards to personnel management.





     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    Bill "who needs to lose weight" Parcells is outta there again......good riddance!
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again : But apparently a it takes a genius to take a Browns team that had been to the playoffs 4 out of 5 years and give them 4 out of 5 losing seasons. 
    Posted by PhatRex[/QUOTE]

    Rexy, I let you get away with this Totally skewed argument once before, but not again...

    Some notes on Belichick's tenure with Cleveland (beginning with your "Playoff Browns team 4 outta the 5 years prior to Belichick taking over" point):

    1986: 12-4 Record...Won 1 in the playoffs, lost the next one.  Cleveland's heyday.
    1987: 10-5 Record...Won 1 in the playoffs, lost next 1 in the playoffs.  Cleveland starts their long downward slide
    1988: 10-6 Record...Lost their playoff appearance.  And down...
    1989: 9-6 Record...Won 1 in the playoffs, lost next one in the playoffs.  Finally, rock bottom...
    1990: 3-13...  PhatRexy's "4 outta 5 PLAYOFF Years, before Belichick!"  Regular Season Total: 42 Wins and 34 Losses...

    Bill Belichick takes over and starts his massive overhauling of Cleveland's franchise:

    1991:  6-10 Record...  Browns Defense surrendered a league-worst and franchise-record 462 total points in 1990...  In 1991?  298 Points (a drop of 10.1 points every game-Better-).  Likewise, BB began his ball-control, mistake free Offense he loves with NE...  Browns dropped from 37 Fumbles (losing 23) in 1990, to 18 Fumbles (losing 8) in BB's first year...Ints went from 28-10.  In the end, 6 outta Cleveland's 10 defeats came by 4 points or less.

    1992:  7-9 Record.  Cleveland lost it's first 2 games, when it was finally determined Kosar was playing with a broken ankle.  QB Todd Philcox took over in week 3, and fractured his thumb.  By week 4 Cleveland's on QB #3, Mike Tomczak...Who led Browns to a 4-3 record, before Kosar finally returned.  Kosar unfortunately, came back and s#cked...winning 3 and losing 6.  In the end, Browns D continued to improve from the previous year, giving up a Top 5 275 Total Points (23 fewer than BB's first year...and just under 200 freaking points than the year before BB).

    1993:  7-9 Record again.  Browns started 3-0.  BB signed Testaverde who ended up starting the 4th q of game 3 after Kosar had not put 1 put on the board...Testaverde led them to their lone score & Cleve won.  Next week verses Indy testaverde went in again for Kosar who was throwing another big 0 in the first half...Browns ended up losing however, 23-10.  Next week, Vinny again when Cleve was losing to Miami after the first half (Browns still lost 24-14).  Finally BB replaced 30-something year old Kosar for Testaverde...  VT won the next 2 before leaving with a seperated shoulder making way for Kosar again.  Browns now 5-2 (2 complete wins from Testavered, 2 second half come from behind wins).  Kosar's back, loses again vs Denver...and he's cut.  Browns 5-3.  Todd Philcox takes over (while VT's still out).  Philcox goes 1-4, before Vinny comes back and wins final game.  7 wins 9 losses.

    1994: 12-4 Record.  Browns set a Franchise history best on Defense by allowing just 204 points to the opposition, while Cleveland's Offense under testaverde put a Top 5 league best for this year, 340 points on the board.  They went 1 and 1 in the playoffs, losing to Pittsburgh.

    1995:  5 Wins and 11 Losses... Hmm, whatever happened HERE?!?  Well, Ownership decided that Browns were going to Baltimore...  This shouldn't be a problem, right...considering this news would come at season's end.  Wreong...  Cleveland began the year 3 and 1...Then, RIGHT at the beginning of November, before the next game, the news broke (management tried to stifle it...didn't work)=Cleveland Browns no more...Baltimore Ravens, they will be.  Cleveland won 2 and lost 10...the games, the fans, everything becoming sidebars considering NO-one knew who would be on the team, who wouldn't, who would be the coach, Browns fans were enraged (and couldn't give a sh#t...along with the team and players), etc., etc., and etc.. 
     
    Final Record before the news broke about the move in BB completely overhauling a team= 35 Wins and 33 Losses...  After the news broke?  37 Wins and 43 Losses.

    ~Still, PhatRexy makes it sound like Bill belichick ran Cleveland's Dynasty into the ground=B.S.    
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    Phat Rex exposed.  The records show gradual improvement at the dawn of the cap era.

    BB had cleared out dead weight and had them in great position. When Baltimore took the team, they had their 1996 classic draft with Ray Lewis, etc, and were a few short years away from the SB.

    Much of BB's staff ended up in Baltimore. 

    Phat Rex exposed yet again on the history.    Small brain Rexie-poo floundering.

    If Cleveland was not moving, the owner and BB weren't going at it, the media wasn't scapegoating BB, etc, the Browns were clearly on the verge of something good.

    Blame Modell.  Modell would finally own up to it years later.
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again : BB, while you are saying a lot, etc...it's all not getting to the heart of what I said from the top: by his own admittance, Parcells was BB's mentor and everything BB has accomplished since has to be at least somewhat attributed his time learning from Parcells. BB is a mirror of Parcells (remember I saw him from 83-90 with the Giants) when it comes to his drafting certain types of players ie:the best athlete available not necessarily by immediate need or position- having a systematic approach and fitting the right players in the right places based on that system rather than drafting by skill only-how he motivates players and deals with the media (where do you think BB/Pats got their reputation of giving the press zero info on injuries and their severity? I saw Parcells make it into an art form with the Giants-and every other stop he made). To quote your own logic back at you, I am saying BB is one of the all-time greats and a HOF coach but he learned the basics of how to be on and off the field from Bill Parcells. Why can't you accept that?
    Posted by JintsFan[/QUOTE]

    I accept he learned some things from Parcells, but not everything. BB was in the NFL in 1975. Parcells in 1981.

    BB learned from a lot of people before Parcells. 

    He really learned from his father. I'd suggest you dig a little deeper. You've been spoonfed the NY media version of the history.
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    Considering the mass turnover in NE from 1999-2001, no, Carroll in no way "built up" anything in NE, mostly due to Bobby Grier's lack of understanding on how to do it.

    In fact, it's widely documented how ingenius BB's approach was in 2001 where he signed a ton of low priced FAs, which were critical in winning the 1st SB.

    Have you seen your team in a SB or win a SB, Phat Rex? lol

    You're right.  You can't make it up. lol

     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    No, I didn't.  I said Grier was partially involved in the process, hired in 1993 (I believe).

    He was promoted.

    Grier and Kraft had too much say, hence why Parcells was frustrated.  Parcells wanted ALL OF THE CONTROL.

    Also, allocating funds and drafting talent are two different things.  You're just really dumb with separating different discussion points. 

    You just can't read well. That's really what the issue is with you. As we know.
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    "Phat Rex exposed.  The records show gradual improvement at the dawn of the cap era.
    BB had cleared out dead weight and had them in great position. When Baltimore took the team, they had their 1996 classic draft with Ray Lewis, etc, and were a few short years away from the SB.
    Much of BB's staff ended up in Baltimore. 
    Phat Rex exposed yet again on the history.Small brain Rexie-poo floundering
    ."

    Exactly...PhatRex would have one believe with his "Cleveland was a PLAYOFF Team 4 outta 5 years just before Belichick," that BB took a Championship Team and ran it into the ground...not, even, remotely.  Rexy's incorporating that very 1st 12-4 year 5 years before BB...and if ya don't?  Cleveland was 10-5, 10-6, 9-6, and 3-13 and 2 wins and 3 losses total in these successive 4 years PRE-Bill Belichick.  And WHILE BB's improving and overhauling Cleveland, again, and again, and again (and again), He's not subject to those contingencies that "most" 1st time Coaches go through, he's thrown through contingencies beyond his control that seriously NO Coaches end up really, ever going through (On that Cleveland site, I counted something like 6-8 STARTING QB injuries, to at least 3 different QB starters at different times (a couple coming back just to get injured again)...Keep this in mind, then ya got BB dealing now with a Total Franchise move and team dissolvement and switch after he begins his 5th year @ 3 and 1, on the heels of his previous 12 and 4 Record the year prior...sheez).  Hey Rexy, rather than doing 5 years pre and post Belichick...how 'bout we just do 4?  4 years before BB?  32-30 Record.  BB's first 4 years as a first time Coach and while overhauling this team?  32-32 Record...improving each and every year, except 1 where he remained the same...  Not exactly "running a franchise into the ground" like you insinuate.  
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    What a shock, PhatRex caught in a lie yet again.  

    See, you have to watch Phatty Boy because he'll leave out a context in order to attempt to try to nail you to the wall.  He does that hoping you won't call him out and expose his lies.

    His premise has been exposed both with data and the context of the Browns' situation in 1995.

    Phat Rex = IQ FAIL
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    In Response to Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again:
    [QUOTE]What a shock, PhatRex caught in a lie yet again.   See, you have to watch Phatty Boy because he'll leave out a context in order to attempt to try to nail you to the wall.  He does that hoping you won't call him out and expose his lies. His premise has been exposed both with data and the context of the Browns' situation in 1995. Phat Rex = IQ FAIL
    Posted by BBReigns[/QUOTE]

    PhatRex is deathly allergic to context and data specific facts...he's a Jets Fan.  His jersey-shore mother reared him on the benefits LA looks hair gel, trans ams, open-ended statements, blind ambiguity, false promises and Nathan's hot dogs.  He!!, his premises ARE nathan's hotdogs:  Ya know it's not good for you & you're not sure WhatFU's even in it, but if you cover it up with enough sh#t hopefully you can at least stomach it. 
     
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    Re: Parcells Quits Yet Again

    Tears!  Now THAT was well delivered and funny.  Good work, Laz.

    Phat Rex on his best day:


     
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