Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    "The Pats were 29th out of 32 teams in yards allowed via the pass (271 a game) and gave up 27 passing touchdowns, tied for 21st in the NFL. "

    http://www.providencejournal.com/sports/patriots/content/20130728-patriots-have-plenty-riding-on-talib.ece

    Gotta gel and excel this year, baby.

    In addition, how good is Talib in reality?  Certainly, it appeared that the Patriots defense improved when he was playing and healthy - but was the improvement because of Talib - or because it gave the Patriots the flexibility to put McCourty at S?

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    The improvement was because Talib is a good CB and McCourty isn't. Anybody with functioning eyeballs could see that. Talib's solidifying the CB spot McCourty couldn't handle allowed McCourty to move to safety where he looks to be much better suited. So, two positions improved with the Talib addition.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    I think it might be a little bit of both. Truthfully Talib was the best CB we had last year (even though he didn't rank in the top 15 among starting CB's around the league) so really he improved the team just by being a better CB than what we had. Additionally though, having good CB's is useless if the S's behind them can't give you anything. Now I don't put all of McCourty's CB woes on the S's but I do believe the lack of good S's behind McCourty did take away from the game he plays. Now when you have a good coverage S in the backfield who can breakdown plays quickly you will greatly improve those infront of them.

    Overall the combo of the two should help drastically improve the secondary along with carrying over the same core group for the first time in a long time


    I swear by lil 10 pound bearded baby Jesus

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?


    "While I happily made the case that I don't think the top of the cornerback tiers can tell us too much yesterday, I do believe that the outliers on the bottom jive with conventional wisdom a bit more. To me, the most practical applications we find with advanced statistics is not who is the best, but who is the worst. That goes double for regression-based systems like Playmaker Score and the Lewin Forecast. As long as the data is indeed looking at the "right" things (i.e.: not how going to a junior college is going to make Jason Pierre-Paul be bad at sacking a quarterback), it seems to me that a system is better measured by who it picks as bad rather than who it picks as good. Other than Davis, the only guy on this list that is a surprise is Aqib Talib, and he played to keep balls in front of him with such regularity that it's not hard to see why he made the list."

    http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2013/worst-cornerback-charting-stats-2012

     

    Even though he is the best CB the Patriots had last year, is that going to be enough for this upcoming season? 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    Agreed with PatsEng. If McCourty the CB had McCourty the S behind him I think our passing defense would have been improved.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    The improvement was because Talib is a good CB and McCourty isn't. Anybody with functioning eyeballs could see that. Talib's solidifying the CB spot McCourty couldn't handle allowed McCourty to move to safety where he looks to be much better suited. So, two positions improved with the Talib addition.

     

     



    Exactly. But then throwing in the fact that Dennard is solid, Arrington can man the slot - only the slot, Adrian at SS and the continuity that has been built should help this group improve. 
    Can the Dline generate a consistant pass-rush???  Jones, Kelly, Nink, Collins...

    This D should absolutely be better this year. 

    Maybe I'm crazy but I think top 12-15, easy. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to Getzo's comment:


    Exactly. But then throwing in the fact that Dennard is solid, Arrington can man the slot - only the slot, Adrian at SS and the continuity that has been built should help this group improve. 
    Can the Dline generate a consistent pass-rush???  Jones, Kelly, Nink, Collins...

    This D should absolutely be better this year. 

    Maybe I'm crazy but I think top 12-15, easy. 



    yep, complementary football between DL/OLB and DBs...the Patriots seriously need both groups to improve and help each other.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

     

    100 percent Talib. McCourty at safety is an improvement but without Talib at corner secondary play would not have improved. We finally have two guys who can play corner hurrah!

    Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding the truth.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from 49Patriots. Show 49Patriots's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    Both, Talib was able to man up the other team's # 1 and do well against them. McCourty took away the deep ball and made Dennard and Arrington's job easy because they only had to protect the bottom. McCourty took the top.

    There are 32 reasons not to throw the deep ball against the New England Patriots this season, they all end in "Because Devin McCourty will INT it".

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    Talib is awesome, he is physical and can manhandle opposing receivers and really is effective against big, tall guys.  Dennard made about as much an impact at corner as Talib did, when we moved McCourty back to safety the prior season we had Arrington and Sterling Moore as starters, obviously Talib and Dennard are a huge upgrade over the previous pair, moving Arrington back to the slot where he is a shut down corner makes the starting three as good as it gets.  They play the press extraordinarily well which BB loves.

    But if you needed a corner or defensive back to cover a smaller burner like LeSean McCoy, McCourty is your guy, there isn't a better pure cover guy on our roster.  He was moved back to safety to shore up a position that had been a revolving door for a long time. Eugene Wilson moved from corner to safety so this wasn't unusual or beyond the norm.  McCourty wasn't punished by moving him to safety, he was helping the team.  He is easily one of our best athletes, that's why he returns kicks.  Saying McCourty is a weakness or "the problem" is about as dumb as saying Brady or Mayo is the problem, the real problem is that posters here can't see the real problem is a lack of sacks and lack of an inside pass rush.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    By the way the team was 5th last season in the NFL in interceptions with Talib and Dennard.

    They were 2nd the season prior without them.  

    They were #1 the season before that, their leading INT guy when they were ranked #1; McCourty.  Their leading INT guy last season; Devin McCourty...

    I guess he just sux like all of our pro bowl players. 

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    By the way the team was 5th last season in the NFL in interceptions with Talib and Dennard.

    They were 2nd the season prior without them.  

    They were #1 the season before that, their leading INT guy when they were ranked #1; McCourty.  Their leading INT guy last season; Devin McCourty...

    I guess he just sux like all of our pro bowl players. 

     

     




    uhhhh, who's saying McCourty sucks? Again, The Pats were 29th out of 32 teams in yards allowed via the pass (271 a game) and gave up 27 passing touchdowns, tied for 21st in the NFL.

     

    Sure, last years defense improved from the year before....but that doesn't mean this defense is good. It means they've gone from sucky to just below mediocre. I don't think there's any question that the Patriots need to get back in the top 5 in points against, top 5-8 in red zone defense, and at least 10-15 in pass defense.

    It's pretty simple. Noone is scared to play against this defense.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    uhhhh, who's saying McCourty sucks? Again, The Pats were 29th out of 32 teams in yards allowed via the pass (271 a game) and gave up 27 passing touchdowns, tied for 21st in the NFL. 

    Sure, last years defense improved from the year before....but that doesn't mean this defense is good. It means they've gone from sucky to just below mediocre. I don't think there's any question that the Patriots need to get back in the top 5 in points against, top 5-8 in red zone defense, and at least 10-15 in pass defense.

    It's pretty simple. Noone is scared to play against this defense.



    I don't have to name names.  

    The Patriot defense will be an easy fix, get some defensive tackles who can crush a pocket; pressure increases, sacks rise, third down % improves, the rest takes care of itself.  Kelly and Armstead are hopefully a step in the right direction.  

    You build your team from the inside out, it doesn't matter if you have all world defensive backs, without pressure your entire defense is exposed.  The Steelers have made due with terrible defensive backs for years now because their front was strong, we won a ring with Troy Brown playing nickel back...  the problem has been defensive tackle, not defensive backs.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from BosoxJoe5. Show BosoxJoe5's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    Talib has McCourty as a safety behind him, who did McCourty behind him? McCourty is a good enough CB to be a starter in this league, he maybe a better safety, and is definitely the best S on the Pats.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to wozzy's comment:


    I don't have to name names.  

    The Patriot defense will be an easy fix, get some defensive tackles who can crush a pocket; pressure increases, sacks rise, third down % improves, the rest takes care of itself.  Kelly and Armstead are hopefully a step in the right direction.  

    You build your team from the inside out, it doesn't matter if you have all world defensive backs, without pressure your entire defense is exposed.  The Steelers have made due with terrible defensive backs for years now because their front was strong, we won a ring with Troy Brown playing nickel back...  the problem has been defensive tackle, not defensive backs.



    maybe not, but it's prolly only a few posters who have that opinion.
    BB's been trying for some time now - and, if it were such an easy fix....the Patriots defense wouldn't be below average at this time. Armstead is being treated for an infection. Who knows if he will be around come game time.  Our pass rush and pass coverage is below average. The Patriots need BOTH areas to improve to get the defense back on track.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    after attending camp a couple days and getting a feel for how BB is gonna run the D, I fully expect them to improve. The fact we have all 4 returning starters is a BIG deal and add to that, we have more pass rush options. Guys being better in year 2 (HIghtower, Jones,) and new guys(Collins, Vega, Kelly) I see the same style of defense but a more cohesive one and more upfield rushing from lineman and less 2 gapping. More agressive blitzes and I think we get off the field a bit more and start to move from the BBDB defense that hasnt worked as of late. Talib and A.Wilson are the keys here. Can Talib stay healthy and can A.Wilson play a role where is lost steps dont hurt the team. So far, so good. A.Wilson has been playing strictly up at the line. We should be able to cover TEs now and force more errant throws.

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to BosoxJoe5's comment:

    Talib has McCourty as a safety behind him, who did McCourty behind him? McCourty is a good enough CB to be a starter in this league, he maybe a better safety, and is definitely the best S on the Pats.



    Well, JAG....lol.  But if McCourty is that good as a CB, does he need help? If he needs that much help over the top, how good can he be? Or, are you saying that he was performing poorly because he had to compensate for having inadequate DBs around him?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    after attending camp a couple days and getting a feel for how BB is gonna run the D, I fully expect them to improve. The fact we have all 4 returning starters is a BIG deal and add to that, we have more pass rush options. Guys being better in year 2 (HIghtower, Jones,) and new guys(Collins, Vega, Kelly) I see the same style of defense but a more cohesive one and more upfield rushing from lineman and less 2 gapping. More agressive blitzes and I think we get off the field a bit more and start to move from the BBDB defense that hasnt worked as of late. Talib and A.Wilson are the keys here. Can Talib stay healthy and can A.Wilson play a role where is lost steps dont hurt the team. So far, so good. A.Wilson has been playing strictly up at the line. We should be able to cover TEs now and force more errant throws.

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver



    anyone sticking out in particular? I know it's early....

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?


    In all the passing drills 7-7/11-11 talib was the best palyer on the field Monday night.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    "The Pats were 29th out of 32 teams in yards allowed via the pass (271 a game) and gave up 27 passing touchdowns, tied for 21st in the NFL. "



    And yet, they made it to the AFC Championship game anyway.

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to anonymis's comment:

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    after attending camp a couple days and getting a feel for how BB is gonna run the D, I fully expect them to improve. The fact we have all 4 returning starters is a BIG deal and add to that, we have more pass rush options. Guys being better in year 2 (HIghtower, Jones,) and new guys(Collins, Vega, Kelly) I see the same style of defense but a more cohesive one and more upfield rushing from lineman and less 2 gapping. More agressive blitzes and I think we get off the field a bit more and start to move from the BBDB defense that hasnt worked as of late. Talib and A.Wilson are the keys here. Can Talib stay healthy and can A.Wilson play a role where is lost steps dont hurt the team. So far, so good. A.Wilson has been playing strictly up at the line. We should be able to cover TEs now and force more errant throws.

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     



    anyone sticking out in particular? I know it's early....

     



    I posted in the training camp thread what I saw on Monday night. I may post some more as my thoughts come in. Still early and im finishing my coffee, but all that I could remember is in that thread.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to Macrawn's comment:

     

     

    100 percent Talib. McCourty at safety is an improvement but without Talib at corner secondary play would not have improved. We finally have two guys who can play corner hurrah!

    Losing an illusion makes you wiser than finding the truth.

     




     

    Disagree. The back end makes it possible.  It steers the ship, so to speak. It's a big reason why he had problems in 2011.

    Sanders and Meriweather gone, Sergio Brown was in there, then benched.  No continuity.

    Talib absolutely helps. but as well as Dennard has emerged and Arrington having a nice AFC title game, they could get by without Talib, but I don;t think they could without a proper back end.

    You gotta have some intellgence back there and McCourty has that for sure.

    Bill Walsh moved Ronnie Lott to Safety in 1985 because he needed his cerebral presence back there.  Then they drafted Don Griffin to across from Eric Wright in 1986, and they were winning the SB by 1988 again. It did take them a year for them to transition that, and I think we may have already seen McCourty's this past season.

    In 1985 they had some issues in their secondary, so even for them it wasn't smooth. The Rams won the division that year and were a better defense. Walsh saw it and moved Lott to the back end to setttle it down.

     

     


    Easy to prove. When Talib isn't playing they get eaten up in the secondary. They have had a poor secondary since Mr. Get Paid left. Sanders and Merri did help that secondary but it was still poor when they were there. It's now turned the corner for the first time since Samuel left and it isn't because McCourty moved to safety. I'd add Dennard's play as a more important piece than McCourty. MC comes in at #3. Without Dennard and Talib, you have no pass d back there. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    maybe not, but it's prolly only a few posters who have that opinion.

    BB's been trying for some time now - and, if it were such an easy fix....the Patriots defense wouldn't be below average at this time. Armstead is being treated for an infection. Who knows if he will be around come game time.  Our pass rush and pass coverage is below average. The Patriots need BOTH areas to improve to get the defense back on track.



    If Red Bryant agreed to sign last season we'd have been substantially better on defense last season.  

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    If Red Bryant agreed to sign last season we'd have been substantially better on defense last season.  

     



    But he didn't.  Does that mean the Patriots are still substantially better?

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Passing Defense - The Only Way Is UP. Improvement due to Talib vs Moving McCourty to S?

    In response to Macrawn's comment:

    Easy to prove. When Talib isn't playing they get eaten up in the secondary. They have had a poor secondary since Mr. Get Paid left. Sanders and Merri did help that secondary but it was still poor when they were there. It's now turned the corner for the first time since Samuel left and it isn't because McCourty moved to safety. I'd add Dennard's play as a more important piece than McCourty. MC comes in at #3. Without Dennard and Talib, you have no pass d back there. 

     



    hmmm, interesting thought.

     
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