Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I just looked quickly at everyone picked in the 2nd round after Wilson.  Wth is the OP talking about.  I don't even believe in these woulda coulda shouldas, but no one on the list I looked at seems to be some huge impact player thus far.

    [/QUOTE]

    I've noticed that a lot of fans really overestimate what you can realistically expect from a second round pick.  Relatively few Pro Bowl quality players are picked in the second.  Most are either average starters or good back-ups, though a number end up being nothing more than roster filler.  The idea that if a second round pick doesn't turn out to be an "impact" player, the pick was a bust  has no basis in reality.  

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah: I think of it this way. I expect a great player (not HOF or maybe even AP, but a difference maker) from a first. A starter from a second rounder. At least a role player from a third or fourth. After that ... whatever. I think of 'Bust' in terms of a player that is cut, or a player you just can't play because they are terrible. Steal = above expectations. Good pick: at expectations. Reach = below expectations. Bust = useless player, cut, etc.

    If Wilson can hold his end down in a few years, and stop this rotating FS nonsense, then grand.   Solid pick. 

    To round it out. Expectations really need to be drawn back. Did Chung even play this much as a rookie?  Meri? 

      

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would contend that a team can't possess a winning % that Belichick's tenure has and simultaneously be bad in the draft... or anywhere else for that matter.  

    Teams are subject to a loss of resources, coaching, manpower; this is the downside of being successful.

    Not many reload and manage the cap like Belichick, moreover he patches holes to keep his teams afloat during rough times, finding vet, free agents nobody else wants who contribute to winning.  

    For all the moaning about bad 2nd round draft picks, little is said about the undrafted free agents over the years that have made this team and contributed to winning.

    The draft is a crapshoot, whether you're picking your 1st pick or your 6th, that guy could be Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison and the 1st round guy might be can't miss, but when he blows out a hip and can't endure the pain he becomes a bust; it doesn't mean it was a bad pick, it was an unlucky one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the draft is a "crapshoot", but isn't BB on equal footing as all the other player scouts? If that's true, and BB is performing at or below the average success rate for drafting players - then that aspect of his managing/coaching/job leaves a little to be desired.  In regards to undrafted free agents that make contributions, every other team has similar stories too.

    So, BB is ultimately responsible for all those "holes" that were created. He tries to "fix" them because he has no choice.


    Maybe, BB is actually over-rated as a coach. He won 2 SBs with the Giants as an assistant coach.  Have you seen the number of quality players AND quality of coaches during that time period? Have you seen his stats as a head coach for the Cleveland Browns?  Fast forward to his time with the Patriots. He won 3 SBs with the Patriots. In hindsight, have you seen the quality of players and coaches that were with the team when they did win 3 SBs?  Maybe BB was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, with the right coaches and players? Maybe his supporting cast made him look like the genius and not the other way around?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to mthurl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Here's the thing...some people around here honest god think that just because a guy is "starting" on this team, it means he's a good player. When in actuality they are starting because they have nothing better to replace them.

    [/QUOTE]


    Yeah. It's a fan board though. You expect that. I don't think Chung is bad, he just isn't and wn't likely ever be a difference maker. They went 33rd pick on a box safety. I could live with that if the other safety position weren't so terrible. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    Thanks for your rational posts z. I'm with the group that says how bad can their drafting be when the Patriots have the best record nearly every year? They haven't won a Super Bowl in 7 seasons but they have been to two and came within seconds from winning them both.

    Professional football is such an imperfect sport that it's perfect for complainers and know-it-alls to pick and pick about all their team's mistakes. All teams make mistakes. All teams miss on draft picks. Not many teams win most of their games year after year like the Patriots do.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to anonymis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would contend that a team can't possess a winning % that Belichick's tenure has and simultaneously be bad in the draft... or anywhere else for that matter.  

    Teams are subject to a loss of resources, coaching, manpower; this is the downside of being successful.

    Not many reload and manage the cap like Belichick, moreover he patches holes to keep his teams afloat during rough times, finding vet, free agents nobody else wants who contribute to winning.  

    For all the moaning about bad 2nd round draft picks, little is said about the undrafted free agents over the years that have made this team and contributed to winning.

    The draft is a crapshoot, whether you're picking your 1st pick or your 6th, that guy could be Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison and the 1st round guy might be can't miss, but when he blows out a hip and can't endure the pain he becomes a bust; it doesn't mean it was a bad pick, it was an unlucky one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the draft is a "crapshoot", but isn't BB on equal footing as all the other player scouts? If that's true, and BB is performing at or below the average success rate for drafting players - then that aspect of his managing/coaching/job leaves a little to be desired.  In regards to undrafted free agents that make contributions, every other team has similar stories too.

    So, BB is ultimately responsible for all those "holes" that were created. He tries to "fix" them because he has no choice.


    Maybe, BB is actually over-rated as a coach. He won 2 SBs with the Giants as an assistant coach.  Have you seen the number of quality players AND quality of coaches during that time period? Have you seen his stats as a head coach for the Cleveland Browns?  Fast forward to his time with the Patriots. He won 3 SBs with the Patriots. In hindsight, have you seen the quality of players and coaches that were with the team when they did win 3 SBs?  Maybe BB was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, with the right coaches and players? Maybe his supporting cast made him look like the genius and not the other way around?

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, ANYONE please explain how a team can be wildly successful and a failure at the same time?  

    Explain how ALL of our players can suck (except Brady of course) and yet we still make it to the playoffs every year?

    First let's assume that when he became defensive coordinator/assistant head coach for the Pat's under Parcells and they chose a spate of defensive players that year (Milloy, Bruschi), that he had some input into those players because he most surely did.

    Second before you or any of the others say Tom Brady is the only reason Belichick got lucky or backed into a lucky situation keep in mind that BB spent a 6th round pick on Brady, he didn't wait for Brady to go undrafted (which he very likely would have as a part time starter in college) but he used that pick.  People take this lightly like "it was only a 6th round pick," yeah well he didn't wait for another team to snap him up, Belichick took him.

    He also took Richard Seymour and Matt Light the following year with his first two picks. Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, Jarvis Green, David Givens the next year.  Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta Cain the next.  Wilfork, Ben Watson, Marquise Hill the next.  Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Kaczur, James Sanders and Matt Cassel the next.... etc.

    All together BB has had one bad draft; 2006.  He fully admits that he went away from his formula for drafting and allowed third party to influence his decsions, which he has since shown regret for.

    Until you guys can figure out the answers to the question above, all this complaining sounds like entitled, spoiled fan garbage...  try to enjoy the ride instead.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    Well I did think Solder was a lost cause the way he starter the year but I think he's improved enough in pass protection and he was a monster run blocker from the very start so I guess I should be patient with Wilson, even though he hasn't shown anything other than average play. Considering the state of the secondary isn't isn't saying much that he started games and has gotten a lot of playing time. That would not have been the case if he had been drafted by nearly any other team. 

    Last year's draft was excellent and the Pats have picked up some good players. If they would stay away from drafting corners and wr they would probably improve their drafts considerably. They should probably trade for those positions because I think that's where the majority of busts have been. 

     

     
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    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    dp

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Macrawn. Show Macrawn's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    darn mouse keeps making me dp

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to anonymis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would contend that a team can't possess a winning % that Belichick's tenure has and simultaneously be bad in the draft... or anywhere else for that matter.  

    Teams are subject to a loss of resources, coaching, manpower; this is the downside of being successful.

    Not many reload and manage the cap like Belichick, moreover he patches holes to keep his teams afloat during rough times, finding vet, free agents nobody else wants who contribute to winning.  

    For all the moaning about bad 2nd round draft picks, little is said about the undrafted free agents over the years that have made this team and contributed to winning.

    The draft is a crapshoot, whether you're picking your 1st pick or your 6th, that guy could be Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison and the 1st round guy might be can't miss, but when he blows out a hip and can't endure the pain he becomes a bust; it doesn't mean it was a bad pick, it was an unlucky one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the draft is a "crapshoot", but isn't BB on equal footing as all the other player scouts? If that's true, and BB is performing at or below the average success rate for drafting players - then that aspect of his managing/coaching/job leaves a little to be desired.  In regards to undrafted free agents that make contributions, every other team has similar stories too.

    So, BB is ultimately responsible for all those "holes" that were created. He tries to "fix" them because he has no choice.


    Maybe, BB is actually over-rated as a coach. He won 2 SBs with the Giants as an assistant coach.  Have you seen the number of quality players AND quality of coaches during that time period? Have you seen his stats as a head coach for the Cleveland Browns?  Fast forward to his time with the Patriots. He won 3 SBs with the Patriots. In hindsight, have you seen the quality of players and coaches that were with the team when they did win 3 SBs?  Maybe BB was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, with the right coaches and players? Maybe his supporting cast made him look like the genius and not the other way around?

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, ANYONE please explain how a team can be wildly successful and a failure at the same time?  

    Explain how ALL of our players can suck (except Brady of course) and yet we still make it to the playoffs every year?

    First let's assume that when he became defensive coordinator/assistant head coach for the Pat's under Parcells and they chose a spate of defensive players that year (Milloy, Bruschi), that he had some input into those players because he most surely did.

    Second before you or any of the others say Tom Brady is the only reason Belichick got lucky or backed into a lucky situation keep in mind that BB spent a 6th round pick on Brady, he didn't wait for Brady to go undrafted (which he very likely would have as a part time starter in college) but he used that pick.  People take this lightly like "it was only a 6th round pick," yeah well he didn't wait for another team to snap him up, Belichick took him.

    He also took Richard Seymour and Matt Light the following year with his first two picks. Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, Jarvis Green, David Givens the next year.  Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta Cain the next.  Wilfork, Ben Watson, Marquise Hill the next.  Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Kaczur, James Sanders and Matt Cassel the next.... etc.

    All together BB has had one bad draft; 2006.  He fully admits that he went away from his formula for drafting and allowed third party to influence his decsions, which he has since shown regret for.

    Until you guys can figure out the answers to the question above, all this complaining sounds like entitled, spoiled fan garbage...  try to enjoy the ride instead.

    [/QUOTE]


    Luck. It's possible that BB is riding the coattails of Brady (and relied on some good coaching staff during the SB years).

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from agill1970. Show agill1970's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to Eldunker's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I hope that I'm wrong, but from what I see so far, Tavon Wilson was a waste of the 48th pick in the draft just as everyone on the planet except BB and crew feared.   

    Maybe he will take a year or two to develop... I believe however, that in a couple of years, Tavon will no longer be with the team or possibly just a high-pick special teams player.  

    The truth is that the talent still available at #48 could be helping us at multiple positions right now more than Wilson, who again seems to be over-rated and would have been available much later in the draft.    

    Solder also is not performing as a #17 at this point and I am concerned about his sustainable health.  But at least we got Chandler and Hightower right. 

    [/QUOTE]


    Personally, I think you're wrong.  Wilson has been laying pipe this year, but got faked out a few times.  That's inexperience, which can and will be fixed in my opinion.  I see him as a future starter possibly making us forget all about Chung.  As for Solder I have to wonder if you've actually been watching these games?  He pretty much shuts down the opposing teams pass rusher on his side and has been a monster in the run game as well.  An awesome pick and player that hopefully will one day be compared to Bruce Armstrong.  He has the potential to have that same type of career and effect for the Patriots. 

     
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  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to mthurl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Enough from you homers!! Typical babble from charter members of the Ostrich Society, TrueChamp and Prolate, above. Lets see now, according to Prolate, 2nd round choices are no big deal. Well, lets just examine the past three years, shall we?:

    I. 2011: The Pats had two second rounders, the 33rd and 56th overall selections overall. They used them to select CB Ras-I Dowling, and RB Shane Vereen, respectively. Other players that they could have had were:

    1.) DE Jabaal Sheard, 37th overall. But, who needs a pass-rusher, right, Prolate?

    2.) LB Akeem Ayers: 39th overall. Huge LB, just like BB likes them. A tackling machine. But, there's no place for a guy like this in the NFL, right, Prolate?

    3.) LB Bruce Carter: 40th overall. Perhaps the fastest OLB in the game. Great in coverage. But, who needs LBs who can cover, right, Prolate?

    4.) DE Brooks Reed: 42nd overall. DE/OLB is the Clay Matthews mold, who can rush the passer. But, who needs pass-rushers, right, Prolate?

    5.) S Rahim Moore: 45th overall pick by the Denver Broncos. But, who needs a reliable safety. Right, Prolate?

    6.) WR Torrey Smith: 58th overall pick of Baltimore Ravens. One of the more feared deep threat WRs in the game. But, who needs a WR who ccan stretch the field, right, Prolate?

    7.) OT Marcus Gilbert: 63rd overall pick of Pittsburgh Steelers. Starting tackle on a contending team. But, who needs depth at OT, right, Prolate?

    8.) WR Randall Cobb: 64th overall pick of the Green Bay Packers. Deep threat WR, who is also effective in the slot. In addition, Cobb is a dangerous kick returner. But, who needs players like this, right, Prolate?

    II. 2010: The Pats struck gold with Rob Gronkowski at #42. But, how can this be? I thought that 2nd rounders weren't such a big deal, right, Prolate? Pats also selected DE/LB Jermaine Cunningham at #53, and rugged ILB Brandon Spikes at #62. Some think that Spikes is one of the top run-stuffing ILBs in the game. But, how can this be, when he's just a no big deal 2nd rounder, right, Prolate??

    1.) DE Carlos Dunlap: 54th overall pick has developed into an excellent pass-rusher. Nagging injuries are the only thing that has stood in his way from being a double-digit sack man. But, who needs guys who can get to the QB, right, Prolate?

    2.) LB Sean Lee: 55th overall pick of the Dallas Cowboys is a pro-bowl caliber player. But, like Dunlap, injuries have been an obstacle. But, who needs big LBs who can run, right, Prolate?

    III. 2009: The Pats selected S Patrick Chung at #34, DT Ron Brace at #40, CB Darius Butler at #41, and struck gold with pro-bowl caliber RT, Sebastien Vollmer, at #58. But, again, how can it be that the Pats acquired a top notch OT in overrated round two, right, Prolate? 

    1.) LB James Laurinatis: Taken 35th overall, this guy is one of the better young LBs in the game. But, who needs a big, physical, intimidating LB, right, Prolate?

    2.) LB Rey Maualuga: Taken 38th overall. An intimidator. But, what good are guys like this, right, Prolate?

    3.) S Jarius Byrd: Selected at #42 overall, Byrd is one of the top ball-hawking safeties in the NFL. But, the Patriots certainly don't need a playmaking safety, right, Prolate?

    4.) C/OG  Max Unger: Selected 49th overall by Seattle. Solid starter, and versatile interior player. But, who needs a quality C/OG, right, Prolate?

    5.) OG Andy Levitre: Picked by Buffalo at #51...this guy is solid. But, who needs good OGs who are capable pass-blockers and run blockers, right, Prolate?

    6.) RB LeSean McCoy: Picked by Philly at #53, McCoy is one of the best, most versatile RBs in the league. But, who can use a guy like this, right, Prolate?

    7.) S William Moore: Selected 55th overall by Atlanta, Moore has developed into one of the best safeties in the game. But, he's a dime a dozen, right, Prolate?    

         Why can't you homers admit that the Pats aren't perfect, and have made, and are making their fair share of mistakes? What's worse is an attempt to cover this up by claiming that second rounders aren't such a big deal. The Prolate post above was absurd.

         But my friends...you be the judge.  

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Here's the thing...some people around here honest god think that just because a guy is "starting" on this team, it means he's a good player. When in actuality they are starting because they have nothing better to replace them. I swear to god some of our "starters" would have to literally drop their pants and take a steamy dump right on our logo while receivers ran by for touchdowns before some people would consider them bad players. Even then they would say, "well the guy obviously is very mindfull of his fiber intake, you troll!!!!".

    Five years from now when guys like Arrington and Chung are managers at taco bell, maybe then people would admit they weren't good players, but I doubt it. It's not like you can't be a fan and be critical of some of the players they select - I guarantee you Belichick isn't reading this board and crying at night...neither is Chung.

    [/QUOTE]

         We don't have to wait that long to know. It's obvious! We see it when we watch the games.

         Both we, and the esteemed members of the Ostrich Society, are Patriots fans. We all want to see the Patriots win another championship. But, the difference between us and them is that we look at things objectively. We judge based upon results, not on reputation, or on good intentions. I'm sure that BB intented to draft top notch players with all those wasted high round picks. BB certainly has a great reputation, after leading his team to 5 SBs in 11 years. But, just because BB picked a guy, doesn't mean that he's going to produce, "in time".  Unfortunately, the facts are that, for whatever reason, too many of his high picks haven't produced.    

         I criticized the Chung selection when made, and during Chung's rookie season, questioning his coverage skills. For that, I was branded by some as a troll, and by others are pessimistic. Sorry...but I call 'em as I see 'em. 

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to digger0862's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Thanks for your rational posts z. I'm with the group that says how bad can their drafting be when the Patriots have the best record nearly every year? They haven't won a Super Bowl in 7 seasons but they have been to two and came within seconds from winning them both.

    RESPONSE: The reason why the Patriots have continued to be highly successful despite the poor drafting is due primarily to two factors, (1) Tom Brady, (2) BB. When one team possesses the greatest QB and coach in the history of the game, that team is going to be tough to beat. Had the drafts been better...the Pats would have been the greatest dynasty in NFL history.  

    Professional football is such an imperfect sport that it's perfect for complainers and know-it-alls to pick and pick about all their team's mistakes. All teams make mistakes. All teams miss on draft picks. Not many teams win most of their games year after year like the Patriots do.

    RESPONSE: Fine...then why can't the homers admit that mistakes were made, and are currently being made...with regards to the players and coaching staff? How much more successful would the Patriots have been if they spent the money to retain or gain top notch assistants? How much better would the Pats be if they spent the money to retain a top flight scouting group? Something needs to be done to improve the Pats' drafts, and to get the most out of the picks they make. Sorry, but I don't think DC Matt Patricia and secondary coach Josh Boyer are getting it done. The problems with the "D" and secondary aren't just a 3-4 week thing. It's been an ongoing problem for years...and Patricia has been a constant.   

    [/QUOTE]


     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to anonymis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would contend that a team can't possess a winning % that Belichick's tenure has and simultaneously be bad in the draft... or anywhere else for that matter.  

    Teams are subject to a loss of resources, coaching, manpower; this is the downside of being successful.

    Not many reload and manage the cap like Belichick, moreover he patches holes to keep his teams afloat during rough times, finding vet, free agents nobody else wants who contribute to winning.  

    For all the moaning about bad 2nd round draft picks, little is said about the undrafted free agents over the years that have made this team and contributed to winning.

    The draft is a crapshoot, whether you're picking your 1st pick or your 6th, that guy could be Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison and the 1st round guy might be can't miss, but when he blows out a hip and can't endure the pain he becomes a bust; it doesn't mean it was a bad pick, it was an unlucky one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the draft is a "crapshoot", but isn't BB on equal footing as all the other player scouts? If that's true, and BB is performing at or below the average success rate for drafting players - then that aspect of his managing/coaching/job leaves a little to be desired.  In regards to undrafted free agents that make contributions, every other team has similar stories too.

    So, BB is ultimately responsible for all those "holes" that were created. He tries to "fix" them because he has no choice.


    Maybe, BB is actually over-rated as a coach. He won 2 SBs with the Giants as an assistant coach.  Have you seen the number of quality players AND quality of coaches during that time period? Have you seen his stats as a head coach for the Cleveland Browns?  Fast forward to his time with the Patriots. He won 3 SBs with the Patriots. In hindsight, have you seen the quality of players and coaches that were with the team when they did win 3 SBs?  Maybe BB was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, with the right coaches and players? Maybe his supporting cast made him look like the genius and not the other way around?

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, ANYONE please explain how a team can be wildly successful and a failure at the same time?  

    RESPONSE: Easy. The Pats have survived and even thrived despite the poor drafts because they possess the top QB in the history of the game, and the top coach in the history of the game.

    Explain how ALL of our players can suck (except Brady of course) and yet we still make it to the playoffs every year?

    RESPONSE: See above. The Pats would have been the greatest dynasty in NFL history had they drafted better. 

    First let's assume that when he became defensive coordinator/assistant head coach for the Pat's under Parcells and they chose a spate of defensive players that year (Milloy, Bruschi), that he had some input into those players because he most surely did.

    Second before you or any of the others say Tom Brady is the only reason Belichick got lucky or backed into a lucky situation keep in mind that BB spent a 6th round pick on Brady, he didn't wait for Brady to go undrafted (which he very likely would have as a part time starter in college) but he used that pick.  People take this lightly like "it was only a 6th round pick," yeah well he didn't wait for another team to snap him up, Belichick took him.

    He also took Richard Seymour and Matt Light the following year with his first two picks. Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, Jarvis Green, David Givens the next year.  Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta Cain the next.  Wilfork, Ben Watson, Marquise Hill the next.  Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Kaczur, James Sanders and Matt Cassel the next.... etc.

    RESPONSE: All of the above is ancient history. The Pats' coaching staff and personnel department was raided repeatedly due to the success the Pats had, from 2001-05.

    All together BB has had one bad draft; 2006.  He fully admits that he went away from his formula for drafting and allowed third party to influence his decsions, which he has since shown regret for.

    RESPONSE: This is laughable. What was so great about 2007, 2008, and 2009? Look at the list of high draft choice misses over that time: Brandon Meriweather, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell, Eugene Chung, Darius Butler, Ron Brace, Brandon Tate, and Tyrone McKenzie. 

    Until you guys can figure out the answers to the question above, all this complaining sounds like entitled, spoiled fan garbage...  try to enjoy the ride instead.

    RESPONSE: Typical Ostrich Society garbage...just recycled. 

    [/QUOTE]


     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mthurl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Here's the thing...some people around here honest god think that just because a guy is "starting" on this team, it means he's a good player. When in actuality they are starting because they have nothing better to replace them.

    [/QUOTE]


    Yeah. It's a fan board though. You expect that. I don't think Chung is bad, he just isn't and wn't likely ever be a difference maker. They went 33rd pick on a box safety. I could live with that if the other safety position weren't so terrible. 

    [/QUOTE]


    The thing with Chung is if he were a good enough box safety I'd be happy. Chung to me looks like he needs to eat a sandwich - I don't see him making very physical plays in the box, in fact I see him bouncing off blockers and then he gets up holding something (usually a knee or shoulder). He's already demonstrated that he can't stay healthy and that he's poor in coverage..add that to a lack of improvement. I could of lived with a guy that was physical and had flaws in coverage, instead we have a guy that is small, gets hurt too often and is poor in coverage.

    People bash Landry, but at least Landry is physical. And for as bad as he may be in coverage, at least he ran with Gronkowski during that game earlier in the year. I'd take that over Chung, because at least half of the job he needs to do would be getting done...Harrison wasn't good in coverage either, but at least he had the size to run with these tight ends (Chung can't do that). Belichick improved Harrison's coverage skills by having him in spots that he didn't have to play like a cornerback - just kept things in front of him and he was smart enough not to bite on things...Chung doesn't do that. Chung can run better than both these guys, but his size and head hurts him in my opinion.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    RESPONSE: The reason why the Patriots have continued to be highly successful despite the poor drafting is due primarily to two factors, (1) Tom Brady, (2) BB. When one team possesses the greatest QB and coach in the history of the game, that team is going to be tough to beat. Had the drafts been better...the Pats would have been the greatest dynasty in NFL history. RESPONSE: Fine...then why can't the homers admit that mistakes were made, and are currently being made...with regards to the players and coaching staff? How much more successful would the Patriots have been if they spent the money to retain or gain top notch assistants? How much better would the Pats be if they spent the money to retain a top flight scouting group? Something needs to be done to improve the Pats' drafts, and to get the most out of the picks they make. Sorry, but I don't think DC Matt Patricia and secondary coach Josh Boyer are getting it done. The problems with the "D" and secondary aren't just a 3-4 week thing. It's been an ongoing problem for years...and Patricia has been a constant.



    How many wins Brady and Belichick mean to this team is up for debate but it is substantial. Had the drafts been better, yes, the Pats would have certainly been the greatest dynasty in NFL history. That's not debatable but in my opinion, it is wishful thinking.

    Some of us don't like to admit that our team makes mistakes. Some of us do. To me it makes for enjoyable reading. Keep up the good work. :)

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    All the cry to take Jenkins over this guy. How did Jenkins play last week.  Oh wait a minute the sat him for violating team rules.  Just sayin. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to anonymis' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would contend that a team can't possess a winning % that Belichick's tenure has and simultaneously be bad in the draft... or anywhere else for that matter.  

    Teams are subject to a loss of resources, coaching, manpower; this is the downside of being successful.

    Not many reload and manage the cap like Belichick, moreover he patches holes to keep his teams afloat during rough times, finding vet, free agents nobody else wants who contribute to winning.  

    For all the moaning about bad 2nd round draft picks, little is said about the undrafted free agents over the years that have made this team and contributed to winning.

    The draft is a crapshoot, whether you're picking your 1st pick or your 6th, that guy could be Tom Brady or Rodney Harrison and the 1st round guy might be can't miss, but when he blows out a hip and can't endure the pain he becomes a bust; it doesn't mean it was a bad pick, it was an unlucky one.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, the draft is a "crapshoot", but isn't BB on equal footing as all the other player scouts? If that's true, and BB is performing at or below the average success rate for drafting players - then that aspect of his managing/coaching/job leaves a little to be desired.  In regards to undrafted free agents that make contributions, every other team has similar stories too.

    So, BB is ultimately responsible for all those "holes" that were created. He tries to "fix" them because he has no choice.


    Maybe, BB is actually over-rated as a coach. He won 2 SBs with the Giants as an assistant coach.  Have you seen the number of quality players AND quality of coaches during that time period? Have you seen his stats as a head coach for the Cleveland Browns?  Fast forward to his time with the Patriots. He won 3 SBs with the Patriots. In hindsight, have you seen the quality of players and coaches that were with the team when they did win 3 SBs?  Maybe BB was lucky to be in the right place at the right time, with the right coaches and players? Maybe his supporting cast made him look like the genius and not the other way around?

    [/QUOTE]

    Again, ANYONE please explain how a team can be wildly successful and a failure at the same time?  

    RESPONSE: Easy. The Pats have survived and even thrived despite the poor drafts because they possess the top QB in the history of the game, and the top coach in the history of the game.

    Explain how ALL of our players can suck (except Brady of course) and yet we still make it to the playoffs every year?

    RESPONSE: See above. The Pats would have been the greatest dynasty in NFL history had they drafted better. 

    First let's assume that when he became defensive coordinator/assistant head coach for the Pat's under Parcells and they chose a spate of defensive players that year (Milloy, Bruschi), that he had some input into those players because he most surely did.

    Second before you or any of the others say Tom Brady is the only reason Belichick got lucky or backed into a lucky situation keep in mind that BB spent a 6th round pick on Brady, he didn't wait for Brady to go undrafted (which he very likely would have as a part time starter in college) but he used that pick.  People take this lightly like "it was only a 6th round pick," yeah well he didn't wait for another team to snap him up, Belichick took him.

    He also took Richard Seymour and Matt Light the following year with his first two picks. Deion Branch, Daniel Graham, Jarvis Green, David Givens the next year.  Ty Warren, Eugene Wilson, Asante Samuel, Dan Koppen, Tully Banta Cain the next.  Wilfork, Ben Watson, Marquise Hill the next.  Mankins, Ellis Hobbs, Kaczur, James Sanders and Matt Cassel the next.... etc.

    RESPONSE: All of the above is ancient history. The Pats' coaching staff and personnel department was raided repeatedly due to the success the Pats had, from 2001-05.

    All together BB has had one bad draft; 2006.  He fully admits that he went away from his formula for drafting and allowed third party to influence his decsions, which he has since shown regret for.

    RESPONSE: This is laughable. What was so great about 2007, 2008, and 2009? Look at the list of high draft choice misses over that time: Brandon Meriweather, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Kevin O'Connell, Eugene Chung, Darius Butler, Ron Brace, Brandon Tate, and Tyrone McKenzie. 

    Until you guys can figure out the answers to the question above, all this complaining sounds like entitled, spoiled fan garbage...  try to enjoy the ride instead.

    RESPONSE: Typical Ostrich Society garbage...just recycled. 

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Pats don't win rings in those ancient times without one Richard Seymour, who started for a Super Bowl winning team as a rookie and has been an All Pro and Pro Bowler year after year since. Arguably the best player at defensive tackle in the entire NFL. 

     So I guess BB is just lucky once in a while, just silly... sillier still is me having to argue this baloney.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    Love the logic though; take away Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Mankins, Warren, Samuels, Wilson, Watson, Koppen, Branch, Gronk, Hernandez and just about every current player on our team and ask yourself... what has Belichick really done with his drafts...?

    Win is the answer.

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    RESPONSE: Typical Ostrich Society garbage...just recycled. 

    [/QUOTE]

    In response to a whole pile guano from the founding member of the Dodo Society  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Love the logic though; take away Brady, Seymour, Wilfork, Mankins, Warren, Samuels, Wilson, Watson, Koppen, Branch, Gronk, Hernandez and just about every current player on our team and ask yourself... what has Belichick really done with his drafts...?

    Win is the answer.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    geez, people are sooo sensitive.  I guess really we won't really know until Brady is gone. If BB continues to win SB after Brady departs from the Patriots - then I will concede the point...lol

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Pat Draft Blunder Revisited

    Tells you a bit about Tavon...in a day in which our "starting" safety is out again with injury...Tavon isn't starting. It's best to just draft back ups with those second round picks anyway.

     
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