PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! :      Agreed. But, only some should be jailed. Why should Paterno be jailed? He didn't witness the crime, and he did report it to the AD.     I imagine that some sort of follow-up internal investigation was conducted. If not, then the AD and the President should face criminal charges for failing to take action. We don't know what, it anything further, Paterno did. If it is shown that he actively participated in a cover-up, different story.   
    Posted by TexasPat3

    I find it dispicable that you are willing to make assumptions about others but not Paterno. 

    Are you a family member, trial lawyer, or pedophile?
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    Apparently Sandusky was an open secret for years. Locals knew about him, the Happy Valley knew about him, Campus police and local police also knew about him.  Sandusky left the team in 1999 and hasn't reported to Paterno since 1999. He reports to others higher-up. The incident happened in 2002.  If Sandusky left the team in 1999, and doesn't report to Paterno, and Paterno followed the law as all agree, why is Paterno going down?  This is no different from Cardinal Law.  Everyone knew whispers about particular priests. No one said anything. Even the Boston Globe followed stories for years only for them to go away suddenly in settlements. Did the Boston Globe say anything for 20 years? Did the prosecutors? Did anyone say anything? No.  The Globe also sat on stories for 20 years like the rest of society and then made money blowing the whistle later. How many kids were raped while the Globe was silent??? But Cardinal Law is the Bad Guy. Cardinal Law enabled it.  Never mind the prosecutors who knew. Never mind the locals who knew. Never mind the local police who knew. Never mind the Globe who knew. Cardinal Law was the bad guy. YOU, all of society, are guilty. YOU, all of you, are dirty!  How dare you point the finger at Paterno, or at Cardinal Law, as Al Pacino did in "Scarface" and say, "There! There is the bad guy!"  You all knew! YOU are all the bad guy! You are ALL dirty. But there goes 'The Bad Guy'...
    Posted by Counterpoint66


    So Paterno is absolved because others also knew?  What kind of sick twisted logic is that?  Paterno is king there.  He could do whatever he chose.  At the very least, he could have kept Sandusky from the facility.  He could have kept him away from the football program.  He did neither. 

    Fine if you wish to condemn all others involved in the cover up.  Send them all off to a deserted island without a boat, but don't absolve Paterno.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
         Below I have cited the grand jury report, in it's entirety. If you're interested, read it...and answer the following questions: 1.) Could, and should Paterno have done more? My answer is Yes. 2.) Did he deserved being fired because he did not do more? Again, Yes.   3.) Is Paterno deserving of public criticism and scorn? Public criticism...Yes. Scorn, My answer was no, prior to his latest statement. But, after hearing such arrogance and insensitivity about the heinous crimes against children that evolved in part from his failure to do more...my answer is now, Yes.   4.) Should he be prosecuted. Based on the grand jury report. my answer is No. http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/11/06/sports/ncaafootball/20111106-pennstate-document.html
    Posted by TexasPat3

    nice backpedal. 

    Maybe you should keep your mouth shut before defending a man who clearly is complicit in allowing Sandusky's monsterous actions to continue.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : nice backpedal.  Maybe you should keep your mouth shut before defending a man who clearly is complicit in allowing Sandusky's monsterous actions to continue.
    Posted by UD6



    If somebody admits they were wrong, don't kick them for it.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    Babe - given Texas Pat's treatment of me, I could care less. 

    Frankly his only reason for doing so is because of the sh*tstorm that was raised by everyone against him. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

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    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    Babe - given Texas Pat's treatment of me, I could care less.  Frankly his only reason for doing so is because of the sh*tstorm that was raised by everyone against him. 
    Posted by UD6


    Just don't use this to get back at him for other things. This subject needs to be treated with respect for the victims and not contaminated by extraneous grudges. I have confidence you see this.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Evil2012. Show Evil2012's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : Just don't use this to get back at him for other things. This subject needs to be treated with respect for the victims and not contaminated by extraneous grudges. I have confidence you see this.
    Posted by BabeParilli


    Which is why Paterno deserves to be scorned along with the rest of them. That said the one who deserves the most scorn thrown at him other than the rapist himself   ( I expect his fellow inmates will treat him exactly as he deserves ) is that punk McQueary. I still can't fathom how any civilized human being could witness that, walk away and be able to look at himself in the mirror or sleep for the rest of his life.
     
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    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : Which is why Paterno deserves to be scorned along with the rest of them. That said the one who deserves the most scorn thrown at him other than the rapist himself   ( I expect his fellow inmates will treat him exactly as he deserves ) is that punk McQueary. I still can't fathom how any civilized human being could witness that, walk away and be able to look at himself in the mirror or sleep for the rest of his life.
    Posted by Evil2012


    I agree. Everyone involved in this seems to have put other priorities ahead of the victims. That is evil, Evil.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    Here's another sordid little thing to consider about Paterno's power and Penn State's misguided priorities. 

    When did Paterno break the D-1 wins record?    October 29
    When did the scandal break?  The following saturday!!!!!!!
    How long has the Grand Jury investigation been going on?  2 Years!!!!

    What this community was willing to do for paterno is disgusting.  What paterno was willing to take is disgusting.  Does anyone (besides Texas Pat) not believe Paterno told someone "just let me get the wins mark. It will be a great thing for the university". 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from quasi1981. Show quasi1981's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    If everyone can ESPN 2 today, Friday Nov 11th, Jon Ritchie, I don't know if he played in the NFL, but he played for Stanford, and on ESPN first take, he was interviewed by the panel.

    He was recruited by Penn State, and Sandusky was recruiting him.  Ritchie said the guy was the most amazing human being he had ever met and all the great things he was doing, and Ritchie went to Stanford and they kept in touch, and when he heard about what has been going on, and to see his confusion and how humbled he was.  It was great to watch someone who had a personal friendship, and was going to work with him after his playing days.  For him it wasn't so easy to flip out into intense anger.  He had to get over his shock.

    His take was the exact opposite of Gerry Callahan's on WEEI.  Callahan was so angered and overly judgemental as if he had done something maybe in his college days with a girl, or he was abused himself.  

    Ritchie wasn't condoning this at all, but his personal feelings, his closeness to Sandusky, all went to his soul, confusing and shocking him.

    It is hard to see someone so revered as Sandusky was, and then the realization of what he really had become, and When it is close to home for any of us, nothing is ever quite so clear and precise as Callahan's complete cursing and wanting the guy to be essentially put to death. 

    The school handled it all wrong and all of them are to blame, not just Paterno, and it is not easy to flip the switch on someone you thought had been a great man!
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from sml1210. Show sml1210's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!



    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    If everyone can ESPN 2 today, Friday Nov 11th, Jon Ritchie, I don't know if he played in the NFL, but he played for Stanford, and on ESPN first take, he was interviewed by the panel. He was recruited by Penn State, and Sandusky was recruiting him.  Ritchie said the guy was the most amazing human being he had ever met and all the great things he was doing, and Ritchie went to Stanford and they kept in touch, and when he heard about what has been going on, and to see his confusion and how humbled he was.  It was great to watch someone who had a personal friendship, and was going to work with him after his playing days.  For him it wasn't so easy to flip out into intense anger.  He had to get over his shock. His take was the exact opposite of Gerry Callahan's on WEEI.  Callahan was so angered and overly judgemental as if he had done something maybe in his college days with a girl, or he was abused himself.   Ritchie wasn't condoning this at all, but his personal feelings, his closeness to Sandusky, all went to his soul, confusing and shocking him. It is hard to see someone so revered as Sandusky was, and then the realization of what he really had become, and When it is close to home for any of us, nothing is ever quite so clear and precise as Callahan's complete cursing and wanting the guy to be essentially put to death.  The school handled it all wrong and all of them are to blame, not just Paterno, and it is not easy to flip the switch on someone you thought had been a great man!
    Posted by quasi


    Sorry, but Sandusky is a sick animal and should be put to death (he won't be); society would be better off. Hard to feel sorry in the least for what ultimately happens to him. Put me squarely in Callahan's camp. Child molesters are the scum of the earth; even inmates consider child molesters to be targets for violence in prison. I hope there is a special place in hell for Sandusky; remember, this is a sicko who started a non-profit just so it could put him close to little boys.

    I'm happy Ritchie enjoyed his previous social interactions with Sandusky. Bet he and his wife feel like saps.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    No one likes to be duped because it makes one reconsider their previous judgements.  I am not at all surprised that Sandusky was able to dupe others.  How in the world would he have otherwise been able to so brazenly get away with this kind of activity?
     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : TPat didn't do his homework on this one. He was busy preparing his new anti-Gomer premise on his weekly thread. lol
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


    I got a chuckle out of that one Russ. 

    Did you see my post about the timing of the indictments.  makes me sick and I am convinced its not a coincidence.  Get Paterno his win (most for a d1 coach) then nail the school for its indiscretions. 

    If this is true, it makes Paterno's statement about retiring at the end of the season even worse.  Why?  because if a concerted effort was made to wait to indict after paterno gets the record, then he had to have been aware that all of this sh*t was going to hit the fan and that he was going to go down with it. 

    Yet he still made a public statement about how HE would handle HIS position.  Disgraceful. 

    I realize that I am speculating, but connecting these dots isn't too hard. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from gr82bme. Show gr82bme's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : I got a chuckle out of that one Russ.  Did you see my post about the timing of the indictments.  makes me sick and I am convinced its not a coincidence.  Get Paterno his win (most for a d1 coach) then nail the school for its indiscretions.  If this is true, it makes Paterno's statement about retiring at the end of the season even worse.  Why?  because if a concerted effort was made to wait to indict after paterno gets the record, then he had to have been aware that all of this sh*t was going to hit the fan and that he was going to go down with it.  Yet he still made a public statement about how HE would handle HIS position.  Disgraceful.  I realize that I am speculating, but connecting these dots isn't too hard. 
    Posted by UD6


    Doggg:  for the second time today, I'm in total agreement with you (and here I thought it wouldn't happen once in a lifetime - LOL :).  And I don't think you're speculative stance could possibly be far off.  The first mention of something rotten in Happy Valley was as far back as 1998.  Then again in 2002 or 2004 - point is, they - Joe and school officials and perhaps authorities, KNEW there was SOMETHING amiss with this guy.  That's why I'm not cutting Joepa any slack whatsoever.  This isn't something like a NCAA violation, even a serious one.  It's systemmatic, overlooked child rape.  I don't see how anybody can view it as something less.  This is beyond football teams, coaches, legends, etc.  It's high treason for any civilized society.  These were kids for crying out loud - always err on the side of caution - don't sweep it under the rug.  Again, shock of shocks but you've been spot on in every post in regards to this subject.  And I'm glad that even the most intense Pats fans are seeing it similarly.  This issue transcends a game - nice to see the majority of folks seeing this as the horror it really was.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
     I do not consider the man a fraud, at least not yet. He is a very old man who made a very bad mistake. No one thinks he does much of the coaching anymore there so who knows how much mental capacity he really has at this stage. Is he senile in anyway? I have yet to hear him speak as I write this. President Reagan forgot that he signed on to the Iran-Contra deal while president (I'm not going into the polotics of the issue just human frailty and forgetfulness) so who knows what Paterno really knew and remembered. He should definately lose his job if the allegations are true but a life time of good works should not necessarily be overlooked for mistakes made as an old man. I want to hear his defense before calling him a fraud. If it is determined that he was knowingly silent to try to get the all time victory record than that is reprehensible but untill all the facts are in I will withhold calling him a fraud.  
    Posted by ccnsd

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from pschuller. Show pschuller's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
     I do not consider the man a fraud, at least not yet. He is a very old man who made a very bad mistake. No one thinks he does much of the coaching anymore there so who knows how much mental capacity he really has at this stage. Is he senile in anyway? I have yet to hear him speak as I write this. President Reagan forgot that he signed on to the Iran-Contra deal while president (I'm not going into the polotics of the issue just human frailty and forgetfulness) so who knows what Paterno really knew and remembered. He should definately lose his job if the allegations are true but a life time of good works should not necessarily be overlooked for mistakes made as an old man. I want to hear his defense before calling him a fraud. If it is determined that he was knowingly silent to try to get the all time victory record than that is reprehensible but untill all the facts are in I will withhold calling him a fraud.  
    Posted by ccnsd


    Just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, if he is that senile, it would be downright negligent to remain in such a powerful position, which has so much direct impact on the lives of young people (not just the alleged victims).
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : Doggg:  for the second time today, I'm in total agreement with you (and here I thought it wouldn't happen once in a lifetime - LOL :).  And I don't think you're speculative stance could possibly be far off.  The first mention of something rotten in Happy Valley was as far back as 1998.  Then again in 2002 or 2004 - point is, they - Joe and school officials and perhaps authorities, KNEW there was SOMETHING amiss with this guy.  That's why I'm not cutting Joepa any slack whatsoever.  This isn't something like a NCAA violation, even a serious one.  It's systemmatic, overlooked child rape.  I don't see how anybody can view it as something less.  This is beyond football teams, coaches, legends, etc.  It's high treason for any civilized society.  These were kids for crying out loud - always err on the side of caution - don't sweep it under the rug.  Again, shock of shocks but you've been spot on in every post in regards to this subject.  And I'm glad that even the most intense Pats fans are seeing it similarly.  This issue transcends a game - nice to see the majority of folks seeing this as the horror it really was.
    Posted by gr82bme

    grt - I am really not a bad guy.  just a colts fan. Laughing

    On a serious note, I agree with you.  this is all very very bad, and, imo, its going to get worse. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : Just as ignorance of the law is no excuse, if he is that senile, it would be downright negligent to remain in such a powerful position, which has so much direct impact on the lives of young people (not just the alleged victims).
    Posted by pschuller

    this guy's not senile.  He's a manipulative power monger who must have made a deal with the devil.  the devil has come calling.
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!:
    In Response to Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!! : Just don't use this to get back at him for other things. This subject needs to be treated with respect for the victims and not contaminated by extraneous grudges. I have confidence you see this.
    Posted by BabeParilli


         Babe and All:

         Let's get one think straight...I didn't "backpeddle" from anything. All along I agreed that Paterno should have done more...and should have been fired. All I've been saying is to withhold ruining Paterno's reputation until all the facts are in, and that he's not worthy of criminal prosecution, at this time. After becoming aware of the Grand Jury Report today, it became clear to me that the AD and President did nothing after being told about the situation by Paterno. They did meet with the grad student...but still did nothing. 

         Was it then incumbent upon Paterno to act on his own? Yes. At the very least, he should have made sure that Sandusky never set foot on that campus again...encouraged the grad student to go to the police...and/or had gone to the police himself.

         Paterno's recent statement smacked of arrogance and indifference to what has happened. As a result, I now find him to be worthy of the loathe and disgust that he's receiving.

         Paterno's asinine statement just came out...while I'm not sure when the Grand Jury report became available. My opinion has changed only in regard to whether Paterno should be scorned...but not about whether he should be criminally prosecuted. Unless more is forthcoming that he took an active role in a cover-up, I don't think he should be prosecuted.

         As for "The Dog(gggg)" he's been a worthless piece of garbage on this forum for a very long time. He has lied. misrepresented facts, and misdirected threads (by his own admission) for years here. About 4 months ago, I finally tired of him, and put him on ignore.

         He's obviously got an axe to grind with me for all the times I've tore him to shreds in discussions. I'm sure I've struck a nerve with him for the many times I've humiliated him here in the past, and busted his chops, particularly over the past several months about the Colts. Heck..."The Dog(gggg) even went so far as to accuse me of being a pedophile...LOL!!!  

         All this whining and bitterness from him is music to my ears!! I'm glad to see that I've annoyed him...hopefully as much as he has annoyed everybody else here, over the years...with his trollish behavior and dogmatic (pardon the pun...LOL!!), irrational, and childish posts. He's about as credible a person as the Penn State AD. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    Personally I could care less about this whole mess and think the media should S.T.F.U. and stop talking about it. That said, it's pretty obvious to me that Joe swept this under the rug along time ago probably because he knew he could have been fired then. When you have a scandal like this heads are gonna roll. College football is unwatchable in my opinion for about 568 reasons...
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    Exactly Jam, but per Texas Pat, lets not ruin his reputation. 

    Does anyone really believe that Paterno didn't know about the '98 investigation? 

    Isn't it ironic that Sandusky "retired" the following year at age 55 and the reigning National Assistant coach of the year and didn't take another job anywhere else?  How many kids do you think this Devil took advantage of between '98 and now?  But per Texas Pat, lets not besmirch Godly JoePa's rep until we get more facts about what's been covered up for the last 13 years. 

    The problem is that Texas Pat seems to think Paterno is just a pawn in this whole thing.  If you read his comments, he says Paterno reported the incident to his "superiors".  Superiors?  Really?  Does anyone believe that Paterno answers to anyone at that school? 

    Here are some of Texas Pat's sickening comments on this thread: 

    About Paterno:  But, put yourself in his place. If one of your closest friends was accused of raping a boy, you might have a hard time believing it to be true...even if more than one person claimed to be a witness. Telling the athletic director about it probably wasn't easy for Paterno...but he did at least do that much. It seems that the true culprits are the AD and the school president...who did nothing about it. 

    By all accounts, Paterno has not only been a legendary coach, but a very fine man, whose done a lot of good for Penn State, and the men he has coached and molded over the years. To completely disregard all that, without all the facts being in, is somewhat as criminal as the alleged rape itself.

    Again...the police should have been contacted. But, based just upon what is known so far, should we be tar and feathering Paterno at this time? I think not. 

    to completely destroy the reputation of a great man based on the incomplete and insufficient facts currently before us, is grossly unfair, and, even criminal. 

    Because he is Joe Paterno, he is being held to a higher standard.

    The only reason this is a story is because Paterno is involved. The media loves to destroy legends. It's a reporter's ticket to the top echelons of their "profession". Look what they tried to do to BB...No sir...these so-called protectors of freedom of speech and justice have become nothing more than greedy, self serving, political tools. The more I'm hearing about this, the more I'm seeing it as an attack by a bunch of self righteous jackals on an 84 year old man.

    Paterno did act. Hindsight is always 20/20...and, in hindsight, he could have, and should have done more. But, if he were, say, a non-descript college professor, who got involved in a similar way...there's no story here.

    We don't know how definitive the grad student was about what he saw. Paterno has done two lifetimes of good for his school, those who played under him, and his community. He deserves the benefit of the doubt, until all the facts are in.

    Do you really think that Paterno knew that Sandusky was raping children?
      He was told by his grad asst (now his asst coach) that sandusky was raping a child. 

    You're assuming he hasn't "come clean". How do you know? Were you there? Were you privy to the conversations?  the words of a typical apologist.

         To call Paterno "an unconscious human being", who "lost his soul" is grossly unfair...in light of the above. There was one person who told him about an "incident" regarding Sandusky and a boy in a shower. We don't know exactly what Paterno was told. We do know that the "witness" didn't think enough of the incident to personally intervene, or report it to the police.
    Actually, if you had read any of the GJ report, you'd find that Paterno had a pretty good idea of what the grad asst saw.  further, you wish not to have us jumpt to conclusions, but you are very willing to do so where it regards the grad asst.  awful. 

    And then amidst all of the anti-tp comments, his position started to change: 
       I have to agree with you about Paterno's latest statement. It smacks of arrogance, and does seem to indicate that he's not seeing this for the monsterous crime that it is. He certainly deserved being fired...and the ridicule being heaped upon him now seems more justified. 
    interesting though that Paterno had already made released his statement when TP started defending him.  Guess TP just wanted to bury his head until the mountains a sentiment against paterno required him to change his position.

    TP finally gets to the GJ report today that everyone has been clamoring for him to read over the last 24-48 hrs.  
    Below I have cited the grand jury report, in it's entirety. If you're interested, read it...and answer the following questions:

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    And my apologies to all, but I am not going to let an apologist to Paterno attempt to spin himself into the hearts and minds of others when he's been all about defending Paterno (the Don) in this mess. 

    The sad thing is that Texas Pat is happy that he got under my skin for his defense of Paterno.  What a dumb thing to be happy about.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobo354. Show bobo354's posts

    Re: PATERNO ( The FRAUD ) FIRED!!!

    My question is if Mc Queary saw the rape happening why didn't he stop it then instead of notifying Joe the next day? I would have knocked that molester out right then and there!!!
     
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