Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    Oh... and I will add one more note about the receiving options this year v last year. While it is clear that TB is nothhing special when throwing 25 yards or deeper having legitimate downfield threats still opens the field more for both the underneath passing game and the running game. It is NOT simply a meaningless element because TB does not excel there. It remains important. ANd in part because TB CAN throw deep even if it is not his strength.

    If we could run someone downfield on every play and he would have any separation - and TB would have enough time to throw deep - it would be worth throwing deep on every play!!!! I do not like it on 3rd and whatever but if they would give up the deep then you simply take it.

    But the point is that having a group that is much better deep than last year's targets IS a meaningful, a very meaningful, improvement. You want to keep the D honest and help all the other elements of your offense.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    oh and last year LLoyd averaged 6 catches for 48 yards per game for us. Thats 8 yards a reception and that was with NO other outside options doing anything. We are better now

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    THis team has a fighting chance but there are concerns:

    1. The middle of the front 7 on D - injuries to Vinny, Kelly and Mayo have significantly impacted the level of this D especially verse runs between the tackles.

    2. C and RG against elite front sevens 

    3. Ridley's fumbling

     

    However, the secondary IS better than last year if they all are healthy enough to play each playoff game. We saw the drop off last year when Talib went down early v the Ravens.

    Also there has been some banter about the value of last year's group of receiving targets v this year's. WHile you acn go ahead and make the case all you want to about talent the fact is that the sum of the parts are not equal to the value of the whole. Meaning that while you can trumpet Hern and Welker the fact is that with every passing game (no pun intended) the group of Gronk, Julian, Amendola, Dobson, Thompkins and Vereen surpasses last year's group as a GROUP. There is more versatility and so can take advantage of more of the field and more weaknesses in a D. It also means that we have more depth and so can weather injuries better excepting Gronk.

    The second concern - C and RG against elite front 7s - might be overcome if either or both Wendell and COnolly can up their game enough not to be man handled. Against a team like Seattle this could be a REAL problem. It might have been more of a problem v Cinci too but they have lost their best DL (a DT).

    The third concern might end upo not being a problem if Ridley (and coaches) figure it out or if Vereen starts to break out (I am a firm believer in his ability as a feature type back though he doe snot have the body power of Ridley). Regardless of Vereen, having Ridley not only addds depth it adds a different sunning style that strongly fits the play action that suits TB so very very well.

     

    THis team has little if any wiggle room for injuries at this point or for players not playing to potential. The elements out of their control that are of greatest concern.. .the teams that are the greatest problem:

    1. Seattle is so good on both sides of the ball, are a TOUGH team, and a smart team.

    2. Denver at home especially if the weather is over 33 degrees

    3. There is no third thing!

     

     

     

    [/QUOTE]


    This is all I was saying.  Dobson and Boyce are faster than any of our wideouts last year and besides that , they can attack the whole field. Thats been the crux of our issues. Teams just flood the middle and attack brady and we had no deep threats or screen game.

    You see slants, Corners, posts, as well as 9 routes being run effectively now.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Ahhhh, The Voice of Reason....   refreshing. 

    Portfolio, you need to frequent more as well. You and I always seem to be on the same page. I know the rooks have a long way to go and had some drops early but we are better for is now and down the line.  KT , the possesion guy, Dobson the deep guy and Boyce who can possibly do both but will have to wait till next year but I think Brady has a nice cast to work with and with a healthy D next year, Sky is the limit

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to DeadAhead's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

     



    Interesting how on paper, Brady is better with lesser total talent at WR/TE/RB, huh?

     

    He won 3 SBs with weaker talent than what he had in general from 2007-2012.  Some of our fans or the more vocal ones on messageboards completely forgot why Brady was great pre 2007.

    It wasn't because of him being spoiled by WR/TE talent.

    Less binkies, the better Brady is as a QB. Simple fact.

     



    I absolutely agree with you on this point. Tom is better when he is challenged to go through his progressions, thereby giving all of his receivers a chance to get the ball. This was also huge in the new WRs develpment as they knew they would get a target if they got open. In turn, they worked that much harder each play to do so, which has benefitted each of them greatly. This new group has helped Tom rehone his in-play read and react skills instead of letting him have preconceived notions going into a play while getting too comfortable with simply trusting to go to the same one or two guys constantly. That resulted in catastrophe when teams were able to take his favs off their marks, or his favs let him down. This was a brilliant strategy by the mad scientist, BB. Now after nearly a season of building on the weeks prior, they are meshing as a group. Nobody knows whats good for Tommy like Bill does. BB has to be the COY. Perfect match.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I guess I was more or less pointing to the talent of our offense, not the defense.  Chad averaged 1 catch per game with so for that production, I dont care what the average is. If he was an every week performer, his numbers go down. What LLoyd did before he got here makes no diff. to me. When here, he was nothing more than a possesion WR w/no YAC. re: he was nothing more then a possesion receiver because that is our offense,ocho didnt play because branch(who was far inferior in athletic ability played over him. Why? Because he knew the offense and the route tree. Proves my point that deeper routes are not as important to our offense.

    sKT is catching more balls and is more involved than Ocho as a rookie and has just as good a return on his catches. You have Jules and Amdendola instead of just one(wes) in case one gets knocked out oh, and who would you rather have, jules and danny or jules and welker? Right.

     

     

    . Dobson before he got hurt was giving more than Branch did in terms of explosive plays and YAC I agree, and like the upgrade of aathleticism,  but how did that explosive ability help Brady and the offense before Gronk came back? 53% completion 

     

     

    KT is providing a possesion option but also makes plays in intermediate game with Post routes, corner routes. right, he does what Lloyd did.

     

     

    In 2010, who was running post routes for us? Gronk ran seam routes and Hern. worked the middle w/Wes. Team would flood the middle, game over. Brady had arguably his best year of his career. UUnanimously won mvp for the 1st time in history. 4 ints all year with those 3 guys getting the looks. What was broken? I thought our defense was the reason we lost in 2010, now its because we didnt have a possesion receiver?

     

     

    they do it now, KT will take advantage of man coverage along with Dobson as weve seen already as complimentary peices. Thats what they are this year. We relied heavily early due to injury as you stated.  In 2002, 2003,  we had a plethora of # 2 type WRs who were called on to do diff. things. We have that again now. I dont care if they throw deep but teams will have to respect it or playaction will burn them. They can attack ANY part of the field now and also go with power formations with Blount. That is Diversity we havent seen since 2004. I have to stop you right there. Legarret Blount will give us the diversity we havent had since Corey Dillion???

     

     

    We lost in 2010 with Woody as our lead back because benny suxed?.?? 1,000 yars 4.2 ypc and 13 tds zero fumbles now sux, so 2e go to woody and his 2.5 ypc in that game? Great logic.Now we have 4 legit backs to go to. I dont think its even close on offense. On D, of course injuries have put this years team behind others

    [/QUOTE]


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Z point blank, is our offense better then it was in 2011?

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Z point blank, is our offense better then it was in 2011?

    [/QUOTE]

    Today yes. Opening day this year, no.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AZPAT. Show AZPAT's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?


    Uh, no.......

    It's the defense, or lack thereof. They won't be facing the Texans, Bills, Fins, Browns, etc, in the post season. I fear it'll be a short visit unless they can get the #1 seed. Best chance is playing all games in The Razor. 

    Won't happen unless the Brokebacks cooperate by losing 1 more while/f the Pats run the table. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?


    And look, I like the fact that we have guys to run routes on the edges and curls etc.. but deep passes and deep routes? No, that is not what we need. We have the best qb in nfl history within 15 yards, that cannot be argued, our coaches know this and it is why we have not used the deep ball since Brady's knee injury, and is a main reason we shipped out the most talented deep threat receiver in NFL history.

    If the deep ball was important to us.....that wouldn't have happened gentlemen. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Z point blank, is our offense better then it was in 2011?

    [/QUOTE]

    Today yes. Opening day this year, no.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hope you're right port, and maybe by years end you will be, but imo we need better production from Danny, further development from Dob or KT, and Ridley to figure things out and get back on the field. If that doesn't happen I take Gronk, Hern, WW, Branch, Edelman, Ocho, Ridley, Vareen, and Woody every time.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I guess I was more or less pointing to the talent of our offense, not the defense.  Chad averaged 1 catch per game with so for that production, I dont care what the average is. If he was an every week performer, his numbers go down. What LLoyd did before he got here makes no diff. to me. When here, he was nothing more than a possesion WR w/no YAC. re: he was nothing more then a possesion receiver because that is our offense,ocho didnt play because branch(who was far inferior in athletic ability played over him. Why? Because he knew the offense and the route tree. Proves my point that deeper routes are not as important to our offense.

    sKT is catching more balls and is more involved than Ocho as a rookie and has just as good a return on his catches. You have Jules and Amdendola instead of just one(wes) in case one gets knocked out oh, and who would you rather have, jules and danny or jules and welker? Right.

     

     

    . Dobson before he got hurt was giving more than Branch did in terms of explosive plays and YAC I agree, and like the upgrade of aathleticism,  but how did that explosive ability help Brady and the offense before Gronk came back? 53% completion 

     

     

    KT is providing a possesion option but also makes plays in intermediate game with Post routes, corner routes. right, he does what Lloyd did.

     

     

    In 2010, who was running post routes for us? Gronk ran seam routes and Hern. worked the middle w/Wes. Team would flood the middle, game over. Brady had arguably his best year of his career. UUnanimously won mvp for the 1st time in history. 4 ints all year with those 3 guys getting the looks. What was broken? I thought our defense was the reason we lost in 2010, now its because we didnt have a possesion receiver?

     

     

    they do it now, KT will take advantage of man coverage along with Dobson as weve seen already as complimentary peices. Thats what they are this year. We relied heavily early due to injury as you stated.  In 2002, 2003,  we had a plethora of # 2 type WRs who were called on to do diff. things. We have that again now. I dont care if they throw deep but teams will have to respect it or playaction will burn them. They can attack ANY part of the field now and also go with power formations with Blount. That is Diversity we havent seen since 2004. I have to stop you right there. Legarret Blount will give us the diversity we havent had since Corey Dillion???

     

     

    We lost in 2010 with Woody as our lead back because benny suxed?.?? 1,000 yars 4.2 ypc and 13 tds zero fumbles now sux, so 2e go to woody and his 2.5 ypc in that game? Great logic.Now we have 4 legit backs to go to. I dont think its even close on offense. On D, of course injuries have put this years team behind others

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    We will have to disagree true. I believe KT is doing more with less opptys than LLoyd. You could pencil him for his 5 catches but they would ALL be at the same spot(10 yard comeback) and come postseason he was a non factor. He was so good BB showed him the door and drafted 3 rooks. Smell the coffee bro

     

    regarding 53% rate, There is this thing called a learning curve and adjusting to a pro game. Cmon man.

    You dont understand that Blount is the closest thing weve had since Dillon who has already shown ability to kill the clock in 4th quarter?!  Well I cant help you. 4 backs are better than one. Ridley, Vareen, Woody couldnt kill the clock and run when the D expected.

    I was being funny when I said Benny S*x but the point is, the Pats took him off the field for Woody because he was ineffective in passing game. now we have Vareen to do that and can still run inside. Getting 1,000 yards from shotgun draws during the season because you have Brady behind you is one thing. You think its a coincidence that when he went to the bad *ss AFC north division with Ravens, Broncos and Steelers had anything to do with him fumblin so much now when he never did here? 

    Thats my last rebuttal. Lets see what happens THIS postseason compared to the last recent ones and compare then.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Z point blank, is our offense better then it was in 2011?

    [/QUOTE]

    Today yes. Opening day this year, no.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hope you're right port, and maybe by years end you will be, but imo we need better production from Danny, further development from Dob or KT, and Ridley to figure things out and get back on the field. If that doesn't happen I take Gronk, Hern, WW, Branch, Edelman, Ocho, Ridley, Vareen, and Woody every time.

    [/QUOTE]


    This make no sense tho' because Vareen and Woody were never available at the same time. Edleman only contributed the 1st few weeks before Joshy inserted Wes into the lineup again. Branch was a shell of himself last year. Ocho had 16 catches on the year, playing 16 games!?!? Why do we need better production from Danny? Has his lack of touches cost us a game yet? and are his lack of touched due to him not getting open or having more options(Vareen, Edleman)??   If we are scoring enough to win, why do you need to see KT catching 50 yard bombs? Seems like your priorities arent in order. You play fantasy football??  lol

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to portfolio1's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I disagree with a couple of key points on this thread.

    Number 1 is that our offense is more diverse due to having deep threats that can run side line routes and stretch the field. I see that our receptions are spread out to more receivers this year, but that was due to necessity, not by design. Gronk and Danny being injured and not really having any consistency other then Edelman is the reason, but this hurt us more then helped us.

    By insinuating that our offense has been "missing" deep threats you ignore the basic fact that while our QB is still one of the best in football the deep ball is no longer part of his arsenal. He has one of the worst completion % in the league of balls traveling over 20 yards and it has been this way for years. He is a Qb that looks for short but consistent right place right time route running. This is what our offense is.

    Furthermore I don't see KT and Dobson as being these "field stretching" receivers that you guys have been talking about. Our TE Gronk still leads us in yards per catch at 15.1(good for only 27th in the league) and KT and Dobson are at 14.6 and 14.1 ypc(good for 30th and 40th in the league) Not sure these numbers scare a defense out of flooding the zone...

    Now, KT and Dobby are seldom on the field together as they play the same position meaning in essence they are worth 1 players numbers(65+ receptions 950 yards and 8 tds to the flanker position this year) and I would argue that their reception totals would be cut in half if Gronk had played the 1st 6 weeks. On top of that how has this new found "diversity" helped this offense? We are completing 60% of our passes, the worst in 10 years. In terms of yards per completion Brady is at 6.9, the worst since 2006, coincidentally he was at 8.57 in 2011, which was the best in his career(the year we didn't have a field stretcher and 80 % of our offense went to 3 or 4 guys).

    Our offense is starting to get better but that is because Brady has 3 consistent route runners that are getting 70% of the targets again. Gronk, Edelman and Vareen are catching 8-10 balls a game a piece. I love to see Brady hitting the open man, but the fact is he is a creature of habit, and he will go to the guys who get open, and that means chemistry with Brady. 3 guys have it, the rest do not, and probably will not unless we see an injury to one of the big 3.

    Diversity is being able to pass and run the ball effectively, and giving a defense multiple looks. It is not how many guys have 20 or more receptions on your team. This more often then not, means that you don't have consistent weapons in the passing game.

    I say we had more talent on this offense in 2010,2011, and even last year.

    Gronk, Hernandez, Welker, Lloyd, Edelman, ridley, Vareen, and Woody are a way more talented cast then Gronk, Amendola, Edelman, Collie, KT, Dobson, Ridley, Vareen, Blount and it's really not even close imo. Perhaps next year or the year after when some of these new guys develop chemistry with Brady but until that happens our offense was better completing 65% passing, for 7.5 to 8.5 ypc, more first downs, the highest 3rd down % in the league, and a 3-1 td to int ratio.

    I'll save the rest for later.

    [/QUOTE]


    why do you have to Actually go deep for it to be effective? You havent seen Dobson and KT making plays past the intermediate area?  I dont know how you can say its not better than it was with Deion Branch, Lloyd and Ocho manning those spots. LLoyd was consistent but not  a guy who could get behind the D. Earlier in the year we saw these  guys wide open down field but Brady the chemistry was not there. Im the one who was saying in 2009 that Brady was never great at deep throws but with a clean pocket to step up, he is still money between 20-45 yards. Its the 50 yard bombs that are low percentage.

    Healthy Gronk plus 3 legit speedsters added to the offense plus the mental toughness def. makes this team built better than the past.

    2010 we were one and done to the Jets. That was a talented team? Outside of Gronk and Hernandez and Wes who were all INSIDE threats , we had noone. YOu just proved my point. 2011 our D was horrible. This is a better team all around. Just with injuries to key players in the middle that may derail us. Otherwise we would cruise to N.Y. for the SB

    [/QUOTE]

    New England has already attempted as many deep passes (31+) this season as it did all of last season, and 1/4 of the season still remains. And unlike last season, they've actually connected on a couple over 41 yards (0 completions of that length all last season). They've already connected on, and thrown more, over 31 yards than in all of 2011. 

    Anyone arguing that Dobson hasn't effected the deep game, being the possessor of several of these catches, is blowing smoke and has an ax to grind. 

    No one knows what Dobson will be as an NFL WR down the stretch ... but at least at this point he does provide a dimension that was missing before from the offense. It's undeniable. 

    Neither Lloyd, nor Branch, nor Ocho had the wheels to get behind a defense like he does. 

    As far as the total effect of being able to touch the deeper parts of the field, just ask teams with WRs who can do this. Desean Jackson and Riley Cooper are practically carrying the Eagles into playoff contention.

    Now ... all of a sudden ... Nick Foles has the best deep ball in football. Coincidentally, Mike Vick had the best deep ball before he did. 

    Deep passing is mostly a function of a.) having time, and b.) having WRs who can reliably get behind a defense and get underneath a pass. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Z point blank, is our offense better then it was in 2011?

    [/QUOTE]

    Today yes. Opening day this year, no.

    [/QUOTE]

    I hope you're right port, and maybe by years end you will be, but imo we need better production from Danny, further development from Dob or KT, and Ridley to figure things out and get back on the field. If that doesn't happen I take Gronk, Hern, WW, Branch, Edelman, Ocho, Ridley, Vareen, and Woody every time.

    [/QUOTE]


    This make no sense tho' because Vareen and Woody were never available at the same time. Edleman only contributed the 1st few weeks before Joshy inserted Wes into the lineup again. Branch was a shell of himself last year. Ocho had 16 catches on the year, playing 16 games!?!? Why do we need better production from Danny? Has his lack of touches cost us a game yet? and are his lack of touched due to him not getting open or having more options(Vareen, Edleman)??   If we are scoring enough to win, why do you need to see KT catching 50 yard bombs? Seems like your priorities arent in order. You play fantasy football??  lol

    [/QUOTE]

    Well OG, we need better production and further development because since Gronk and Shane came back it has been the Gronk, Julian, Vareen show. Which was one of prolates main points about our offense not being diverse enough. Speaking of not making sense, you like julian and danny over julian and wes? Sure. Now you like Blount over Ridley, and think he is the closest thing we have had since Corey....GOOD ONE. I'm sure you were never a fan of the 2 TE set with Gronk and Hernandez either as they were destroying defenses for 3 years either.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I hope you're right port, and maybe by years end you will be, but imo we need better production from Danny, further development from Dob or KT, and Ridley to figure things out and get back on the field. If that doesn't happen I take Gronk, Hern, WW, Branch, Edelman, Ocho, Ridley, Vareen, and Woody every time.

    [/QUOTE]

    TC,

    I think your response hits on the way you need to look at it. The efficacy of this offense will be best expressed as a continuum -- or something like it.

    Sure, they struggled earlier when they had only a couple green rookies, a third string TE, and a punt returner working his way into the starting lineup. But you have to admit ... the performance earlier this season is completely irrelevant to how effective this offense is now, and can be going down the road. 

    Against a pretty good defensive group (four in top ten, six in top fifteen), NE has scored 36 ppg since week six.

    Since Gronk's return, NE has scored an astounding 39 points per game.

    It's tough to say if that is better or worse, given the inherently small sample an NFL season comprises, but given the way NE has scored over those games, all hands on deck I'd say yes. Yes they are better. Not statistically, but in versatility.

    That said, the thread is about being "better built." It isn't about being better statistically. 

    I think this team has flaws, as do all teams (ok Seattle is hitting on all cylinders right now, lol). But I think those flaws are less of a weakness going down the stretch than the flaws in the past. 

    The offense can get at you in more, different ways. That's always a plus. Even the running game is improved, imo, given the addition of Blount and Develin who add the ability to run for power, and the maturation of Vereen who (while obvisouly injury prone) is more explosive than Woodhead. 

    The defense, while certainly not as good against the rush (by quite a bit), has baffled some amazing passing offenses this season like it hasn't in a long time (Denver and New Orleans to name a couple). I mean, didn't New Orleans drop like 55 points on this defense the last time they played?

    Given that the winners of the last few Superbowls have won some close games on some crazy last minute drives ... I'd rather have that. Just my 2 cents.

     

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    I'll add ... in your favor TC .... this team seems to be made of glass. 

    If they can't stay healthy down the stretch, none of this will matter. It certainly SHOULD be factored into how well "built" a team is. Designing around durability is part of building anything: cars, houses, devices, and teams all need to be built to last.

    Talib and his trick hip. Gronk and whatever. Danny China-doll-a. Et al. It's been something the front office has kind of overlooked over the years, durability and injury concerns, and it has bitten them a few times. 

    But then, NE has really been bounced from the playoffs by severe injuries a few seasons in a row now. So that is nothing new ... even if I am MORE worried about it now. 

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    The whole NFL looks like a MASH unit this year.  I expect the NFL to be sued up to the scuppers for allowing their head coaches to orchestrate the injuries, much as Sean Payton paid a ton for injuries. 

    The real story is, there's only one rival on the AFC side this year.  That rival doesn't play well in the cold and wind. 

    The defensive backfield looks like something this year.  We can actually name players with some proficiency in the backfield. 

    The defensive line doesn't look like anything.  BB is making do with his extra-heavy linebackers when a team can both run and pass.  He can put Soap in the middle when a team promises to run and won't pass, but Soap is a hopeless case against the pass.   

    Brady is still Brady.  The Patriot hurry-up is just a bit more potent.  The quality of the team's receivers had to take a hit with no Aaron Hernandez. 

    It's significant that the team doesn't clobber anybody this year.  My numbers make the team far less proficient this year than last year.  I'll wander out on a limb and say the Pats beat Denver for the AFC Championship. 

    Then comes Seattle or a competitor.  The Pats get more or less home field advantage in New Jersey, almost Patriot weather in February, windier and snowier than Seattle's weather at least, take the train straight from Foxboro if you want, and they get to party on the Jets' and Giants' new home field (icky like the floor of a rock and roll bar at midnight) if they get the AFC Championship. 

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from auchhhhhhhhhhh. Show auchhhhhhhhhhh's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to RallyC's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    YES. For a change, our offense is showing a propencity to peak at the perfect time....the last 1/4 of the season. Tom and Co. are still getting better week by week. Our injuries and personnel losses on D have shown that the PATRIOTS really do have adequate depth, and/or the most exceptional game planning strategies/coaching in the league. Our passing D is SOOOOOO much more solid than in recent years past. 10th this season as compared to 29-th last year. The Patriots have withstood some devastating injuries with a group of very young, but more energetic players. Better motor type guys who just don't give up on any plays. Though our run D stats have been pathetic recently, keep in mind that the last 4- Superbowl Champs have had rush D's with an NFL ranking of: 20th, 19th, 18th, 21st respectively. None of them in the top 1/2 of the league's rush D standings. Its clear that good passs D is more critical than a top run D in today's league. PATS are in a great position to make a successful run at the next trophy! Our offense has more diversity and has afforded more liberal young/new player participation and develpment throughout the season than what we saw during last season. Also, they lost a major choke factor in letting you know who walk. They are much beter built for success than what they were last season...........

    [/QUOTE]

    its a passing league now, nobody is gonna win the SB running the ball.

    so, thats great for us

     

    ISAAC

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?


    I think our offense is great, and I have been upset in the past that we depended too often on Ww and Gronk, and Moss and Ww before them, I dont like it and wished we would hit 7 to 8 guys a game with receptions like we used too, but the fact remains that Brady operates better with repetition/chemistry with his receivers.  It is more about being on the same page, rprt with Brady then about multiple great receiving options.

    I dont think having a better outside receiver would have changed the amount of targets for WW, Gronk, and Hernandez. It wasn't a problem they got the majority of targets because they set an NFL record with 3 guys catching over 70% of their targets.That is amazing, they were dominant. It wasn't broken other then a depth problem, but we had other options, we just chose not to include them.

    Yes, I like having KT and especially Dobby, but if Gronk and Danny were healthy all year, I would bet heavy that the rookies receptions would be cut in half....at least. Point being, our offense is what it is. Shprt, inside route running, with Brady getting them the ball in perfect spacing, which allows for bug YAC. Gronk, Edelman, Vareen, and Amendola will lead us in targets in that order, the rest of the year, and it will won't be close barring injury to 1 of them imo. 

    Now the run game is a real concern, and needs to be addressed. Anyone hear Faulk is working with Ridley on ball control? Great news!!! 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from quinzpatsfan. Show quinzpatsfan's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Over the past several years, the Pats have not been a great playoff team for two reasons in my opinon:

    • Poor pass defense, with a penchant for giving up big plays in the passing game at inopportune times
    • Lack of diversity on offense, with too much of the offense depending on two or three players and therefore extremely vulnerable to either an injury to, or an off day from, one of those players

     

    I think the team this year (at least prior to the injuries) solved the problems:

    On defense. The addition of Talib and emergence of Dennard, along with the move of McCourty to safety created a very sold secondary (Gregory too is better than people think).  The depth in the secondary is better than expected as well, with Arrington, Ryan, and Harmon all adding some quality behind the four starters. While the front seven was mostly unchanged, Kelly added some real talent at the second DT position, Chandler Jones advanced to near-elite status, and the LBs were deeper and more experienced.  So overall, the D was still effective against the run and greatly improved against the pass.  Early in the season, it was a D that could control the pace of a game, something the Pats Ds of the early 2000s were great at, but which the post 2008 defenses were awful at. Prior to all the injuries, this was a championship defense, I think.  Now, I'm not so sure.  I will say they play hard and come up with the big plays when they need them.  But giving up 30 points a game isn't a great thing to do. I like the attitude of this defense.  I worry about the big loss of talent thanks to a series of injuries. 

    On offense.  When healthy, this team has a much more diverse group of talented weapons than they've had in a while.  The past few years, the team was too heavily dependent on just three guys, all of whom were primarily short field receivers: Welker, Gronk, Hern.  Now they have young guys in Dobson and Thompkins who may not be great receivers yet, but are beginning to add some legitimate threats on the perimeter and in the deeper parts of the field.  These guys have a combination of size, speed, hands, and athethic ability to threaten D-backs in a way Welker and Hern really couldn't.  Gronk continues to be almost uncoverable when healthy.  Edelman and Amendola allow the slot position to continue to be productive despite the loss of Welker.  And the running back position continues to improve.  Vereen adds an explosiveness in the passing game out of the backfield we haven't had since Faulk was in his prime.  Ridley is a quality runner (if only he can protect the ball).  And the back-ups are solid.  We even have a fullback when we need him.  So when healthy (and with the maturation of the outside receivers) this offense is nearly as explosive as the offenses of the past few years, but even more versatile and diverse, which I believe makes it less likely to stall out even with an injury or two. 

    I'll just add that the special teams look good too . . . especially the punter and place kicker. I haven't paid close enough attention to the stats to be absolutely sure, but it seems to me that kick and punt coverage has gotten a bit less effective this year than last (does it seem to anyone else that Slater, Cole, and Arrington aren't getting downfield as fast?), but I still think it's good.  

    Anyway, I like this team.  I think it has a winning attitude and I won't be surprised if it finally gets that fourth Lombardi.  However, the injuries are a big hurdle to overcome, especially on defense.  It's tough to win giving up 30 points come playoff time and unfortunately the loss of Wilfork, Kelly, and Mayo is a big, big challenge.  Those are three quality players right in the heart of the defense. Not many teams could overcome that, but if any team can, it's this one.  

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    If the defense didn't have all the injuries we'd talking about the offense getting close to catching up with the play of the defense.  As far as a SB team.  Lucky for us there's not really a better team in the AFC, and only on in the whole NFL that's Seattle.  The goods news is mother nature might be the equalizer if we do end up in the SB against seattle. 

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    I think our offense is great, and I have been upset in the past that we depended too often on Ww and Gronk, and Moss and Ww before them, I dont like it and wished we would hit 7 to 8 guys a game with receptions like we used too, but the fact remains that Brady operates better with repetition/chemistry with his receivers.  It is more about being on the same page, rprt with Brady then about multiple great receiving options.

    I dont think having a better outside receiver would have changed the amount of targets for WW, Gronk, and Hernandez. It wasn't a problem they got the majority of targets because they set an NFL record with 3 guys catching over 70% of their targets.That is amazing, they were dominant. It wasn't broken other then a depth problem, but we had other options, we just chose not to include them.

    Yes, I like having KT and especially Dobby, but if Gronk and Danny were healthy all year, I would bet heavy that the rookies receptions would be cut in half....at least. Point being, our offense is what it is. Shprt, inside route running, with Brady getting them the ball in perfect spacing, which allows for bug YAC. Gronk, Edelman, Vareen, and Amendola will lead us in targets in that order, the rest of the year, and it will won't be close barring injury to 1 of them imo. 

    Now the run game is a real concern, and needs to be addressed. Anyone hear Faulk is working with Ridley on ball control? Great news!!! 

    [/QUOTE]

    It's not about how many catches they get ... it's the quality of the catches.

    Let me put it this way ... I always thought Moss was over-rated because he could'nt make tough catches over the middle. There is a quality to the catches, and having a group that do a hadnful of different things in the passing game is incredibly meaningful to your overall strategy. 

    Having WRs who can get deep and represent a credible threat to the back half of the defense helps the running game and the short passing game tremendously.

    So no ... I don't take your point. I don't think NE's offense is limited to short YAC yardage. Even Edelman is riding longer routes now ... the whole offense is longer. Stats bear it out. The eye test bears it out. It's not the deep passing attack that it was when Moss was here ... but that was not all it was cracked up to be either. It's more balanced between deep stuff and short stuff. 

    Second, NE's top three WRs caught about 61 percent of their passes last season, not 70%. That is the same as the Broncos this season, and the Saints this season. It's normal to target your best receivers most often ... it's not a bug ... it's a feature. It's the same principal as giving the bulk of the carries to the best RB, except even more interrelated with how good the WR is. WR's who don't get open as often, don't catch as many balls.  

    Lastly,  I did hear Faulk was working with Ridley. That's is great. 

    I'd almost rather they use Vereen as often as they can, as I believe he adds a dimension, kind of like Lesean McCoy, to the offense that Ridley does not. Even if Ridley is a better between the tackles runner ... he contributes almost nothing as a receiving threat outside of being a shaky checkdown target. Vereen, while being a better outside the tackles runner, isn't terrible between them, and he is a matchup nightmare as a receiving back. 

    Did you see him motion out of a 2RB set into the SLOT last week and catch a pass against a LBer who was essentially hopeless defending him? Talent like that forces and opponent to declare nickel and cope with getting ground up by the run, or stay in base and leave a LBer covering this kid on passing routes. It's dangerous and I want to see more. 

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    One thing that seems to get clearer and clearer every year is how important Gronk is to this offense.  What would make me feel real confident about the offense is if we had enough quality, depth, and diversity of talent in our offensive weapons around Brady to survive Gronk being gone.  We didn't have that in 2011 or 2012.  The real question is whether we have it this year.  Oddly, I sometimes think the one guy who might allow us to survive the loss of Gronk this year is Vereen.  While I think Dobson and Thompkins and Amendola and Edelman all add up to a little more diversity in the receiving corp, none of them seems to be a big play guy yet who single-handedly causes big problems for defenses.  Vereen, however, may have the explosiveness out of the backfield to be that guy who really forces a defense to alter what it normally does and therefore increases the defense's vulnerability by taking them out of their comfort zone.  I'm not sure of that yet (Vereen hasn't been on the field enough), but if anyone can do that, it may be him.

    A top-quality receiver (like Moss was) could also do that--but right now I don't think Dobson or Thompkins is close. 

    Of course, as long as Gronk stays healthy, the offense will be just fine. 

     

     
  24. This post has been removed.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Better Built For Playoffs This Year Vs. Last?

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:


    I think our offense is great, and I have been upset in the past that we depended too often on Ww and Gronk, and Moss and Ww before them, I dont like it and wished we would hit 7 to 8 guys a game with receptions like we used too, but the fact remains that Brady operates better with repetition/chemistry with his receivers.  It is more about being on the same page, rprt with Brady then about multiple great receiving options.

    I dont think having a better outside receiver would have changed the amount of targets for WW, Gronk, and Hernandez. It wasn't a problem they got the majority of targets because they set an NFL record with 3 guys catching over 70% of their targets.That is amazing, they were dominant. It wasn't broken other then a depth problem, but we had other options, we just chose not to include them.

    Yes, I like having KT and especially Dobby, but if Gronk and Danny were healthy all year, I would bet heavy that the rookies receptions would be cut in half....at least. Point being, our offense is what it is. Shprt, inside route running, with Brady getting them the ball in perfect spacing, which allows for bug YAC. Gronk, Edelman, Vareen, and Amendola will lead us in targets in that order, the rest of the year, and it will won't be close barring injury to 1 of them imo. 

    Now the run game is a real concern, and needs to be addressed. Anyone hear Faulk is working with Ridley on ball control? Great news!!! 

     



    It's not about how many catches they get ... it's the quality of the catches.

     

    Let me put it this way ... I always thought Moss was over-rated because he could'nt make tough catches over the middle. There is a quality to the catches, and having a group that do a hadnful of different things in the passing game is incredibly meaningful to your overall strategy. I can't agree with you here. Moss might not have gone over the middle often but why the hell would anybody want him to? He broke the NFL record for tds his 1st year with us. I don't think being overrated can he possible.

    Having WRs who can get deep and represent a credible threat to the back half of the defense helps the running game and the short passing game tremendously.Right but then Brady's knee was caved in and with it went his deep ball, even to Moss. He threw 8 picks with balls that traveled 20 yards in 09, and 4 of those were targeted at Moss

    So no ... I don't take your point. I don't think NE's offense is limited to short YAC yardage. Even Edelman is riding longer routes now ... the whole offense is longer. Stats bear it out.Edelman has a 10.1 ypc average, lowest of our 5 receiving options, even Hooman has a higher ypc, so I dont understand your point? The eye test bears it out. It's not the deep passing attack that it was when Moss was here ... but that was not all it was cracked up to be either. It's more balanced between deep stuff and short stuff. 

    Second, NE's top three WRs caught about 61 percent of their passes last season. I was refering to 2011 where Gronk, WW, and Hern all caught over 70% of their targets, an amazing accomplishment wouldn't you agree?  That is the same as the Broncos this season, and the Saints this season. It's normal to target your best receivers most often ... it's not a bug ... it's a feature.Yeah I just said as much, we might not have had enough depth last year but Gronk, WW, Hern and Lloyd were as good as it got. Loaded with talent, and extremely efficient. It wasn't broken, nowhere near. We were #1 in ppg, passing yards, 1st downs, 3rd down efficiencey, and 7th in rushing to go with it. That is an efficient and diverse offense, the same principal as giving the bulk of the carries to the best RB, except even more interrelated with how good the WR is. WR's who don't get open as often, don't catch as many balls.  

    Lastly,  I did hear Faulk was working with Ridley. That's is great. 

    I'd almost rather they use Vereen as often as they can, as I believe he adds a dimension, kind of like Lesean McCoy, to the offense that Ridley does not. Even if Ridley is a better between the tackles runner ... he contributes almost nothing as a receiving threat outside of being a shaky checkdown target. Vereen, while being a better outside the tackles runner, isn't terrible between them, and he is a matchup nightmare as a receiving back. 

    Did you see him motion out of a 2RB set into the SLOT last week and catch a pass against a LBer who was essentially hopeless defending him? Talent like that forces and opponent to declare nickel and cope with getting ground up by the run, or stay in base and leave a LBer covering this kid on passing routes. It's dangerous and I want to see more. I agree Vareen is great coming out of the back field and even lining up as a receiver.  I think his hands will only improve as his wrist heals. He certai ly isnt on McCoys level of running between the tackles though, and I hope to see Ridley back in the role soon. He is our best runner by far imo.

    s



     
Sections
Shortcuts

Share