Patriots Dead Money

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Patriots Dead Money

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    I think talking about red flags for Hernandez with regards to the murder is silly  At the end of the day an incredibly low percentage of the population actually murders someone.  I guarantee you there are thousands of people (many who probably currently play in the NFL) that have the exact same "profile" as Hernandez that have not and never will murder someone during their lifetime.  I don't think any NFL FO when making contract decisions worries about murder being the worst case scenario.



    No one thought he'd murder someone, but given the information we know now (about his past history and locker room incidents not about murders, info BB would of had prior to signing an extension), would you give him such a big extension 2yrs into his rook deal or would you wait it out a little longer and see how he matured within that rook deal? That's what we are saying, if it was just pot that's one thing and that extension all for it but now knowing about the gang connections, the issues in Florida, the questioning over a shooting, the assault arrest, and then him basically picking fights in the locker room? You would do that extension? If so why aren't they looking to extend Dennard right now. Because they want to wait and see how he matures after punching the cop, it's that simple. Players with questionable pasts the longer you wait the more you'll see if they changed or not. No need to sign someone so early to big dollars within that time period.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Patriots Dead Money

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:

     


    But what if the evidence suggests that your business actually suffers at a greater expense when you go after"top rated, safer, expensive" recruits who didn't fit your unique company motto of putting the team before the employee? 

    What if your company became the leader in the industry and hit a higher profit margin then all competitors by living the philosphy of building around a core of employess that was developed from the top and then adding "value" employees all around them? Can that company's business model possibly be condemned?

    And what is "high risk" exactly. I think each of our own opinion on high risk is causing this debate to carry on. The very point of signing "value players" is to minimize the risk/impact on the organization. You are committing a small portion of your budget to a few guys in order to find the best addition.

    Going all out on unproven "big shots/top rated FA's" is way more of a high risk. Consider that 19 muliti year deals were given out in 2011 and 10 of them were released before this off season, and a few more will come soon. We see that over half of these big deals don't work, and in our case the only "high priced contracts" given out is to the players developed in our own system....Brady, VW, Seymour, Light, Mankins, Mayo, Nink, Ty Warren, Bruschi, etc.... and as I showed earier when we give out the big contracts to players from other teams we have seen the most problems...Adalius the prized FA given 35 million and washed out.Dillion(3 year big extension after his epic 2004 season and he got fat off the cash, literaly) Moss? One great year and then another guy we didn't commit hurt us, Stalworth, the prized FA given a 6 year deal and cut, Colvin, the prized FA hurt his 2nd game and was never the same player.

    The risk is signing guys who were never coached by a very difficult man to be coached by, and risking that they will conform to the Patriot way. BB has shown low risk value players built around a high priced core he develops is the way to dominance yet still you guys attack?

    I guess this argument comes down to you guys thinking BB should pay guys who are a risk to perform in his unique and difficult coaching system, as opposed to BB paying only the guys he drafts and develops and is absolutely certain they are great long term players. Pretty clear who is right and who is wrong in my eyes.

     



    True you are missing the point completely. Those low cost risky ventures as you put it is fine it you aren't counting on them or if you only have a couple on the team at a time. However, we you fill the starting line up with them that's an issue. You can take a chance on a couple here or there but you can't completely rely on them or you are going to be in trouble when they fail.

    Of all the guys you mentioned lets break it down -

    Dillon - red flag - got lazy in Cinn and became a complainer in the locker room - Reason for release, got lazy and grumpy about number of reps run. In other words released for similar reasons we got ihm so "cheap"

    Moss - red flag - cancer in locker made issue out of contract - Reason for release cancer in locker room and complaining about contract

    Stallworth - no red flags but #2 WR talent at best - Reason for release paid him like a #1 and did perform up to that level, go figure (see Arrington)

    Thomas - no red flags but had a Ravens personality - Reason for release personality conflict not related to performance. You think BB should have known the personalities could conflict?

    With exception of Colvin everyone you listed failed because of red flags, overpaid for previous work, or personality conflict. All of those were known prior to signing. It's not like Stallworth didn't have an average season for himself or Lloyd for that matter. It's not like Thomas suddenly developed a new personality that conflicted with BB's. It's not like previous red flags didn't exist for both Moss and Dillon prior to signing. And if you want to talk about big signings how about Amendola who could get up to $31 mil for a guy who never stayed healthy and never performed higher than a #2 WR talent when healthy. That's called mismanagement.

    No one is saying you need to sign every big FA on the market but we are suggesting that you invest more into players with less risk than players who cost a little less with more risk. And those you sign to big contracts DO YOUR HOMEWORK. It's not difficult to find out if a players personality will conflict with your own, nor is it difficult to investigate red flags and decide if the risk is worth the extension.

    These are smart people. Some players just don't work but when a player fails for reasons you know prior to signing could be an issue maybe you shouldn't invest into them. All you have to do True is look at dead money. We are in the top half of the league every year in dead money, mostly from those risky players that didn't work out. You don't want to invest 2-3mil more for a less riskier player yet if you took one less risky player you could afford to give out that bigger contract. And if it didn't work out guess what you are no worse then you were before. Thomas, Colvin, Dillon, Moss, Bodden, Stallworth or any other "big" signings you want to toss out didn't prevent the team from signing other players and resigning their own to top of the league deals so why would a couple contracts like that suddenly sink them moving forward? What has changed that you can't absorb those types of deals other than you are already absorbing more dead money from released players with red flags.

    BTW, maybe it's about time BB looking to simplify the system slightly. I'm not talking a huge shift but if we are having such difficulty finding players well the players are going to change moving forward so why keep tossing money and picks into the pit. Why not adapt and simplify it a little so that it's easier to intergrate players instead of having to burn out the Jones and Ninks of the world playing 95%+ of the snaps making them almost useless and worn out by the playoffs.


    And you are ignoring the point completely. 


    Im sorry but you are telling us that BB should not have made those signings. Moss for a 4rth? Hern in the 4rth? Adalius Thomas was a bad man when we signed him, 270 pounds, ran like a safety, 8 foot wing span, please dude. It was just the risk you take when you sign other teams players in Moss and AD's case, and bring them to be coached by Belichick and his very demanding system. If you want to blame someone blame the coach, which would be equally as ridiculous.

    You make it seem like we don't sign veteran stud players to big deals, we do, they are just our own veteran stud players.  How many big contracts do you want? We hzve 7 of our own making great money and the o ly guy he missed on was Hernandez becsuse he killed someone, oh unless now in hindsight you also wouldn't have given VW 40 million!

    You are telling us that BB shouldn't expect these value players to he starters??? That tells me right there you have a misconception on how teams are built. You have become spoiled by the riches my friend. Value FA vets, and late round picks were the back bone of our dynasty run, every player counts, and when your QB was made the highest paid player in the league on 2 separate occasions, and you sign stud veterans like Wilfork,  Warren, Mankins, Light(hey talk about building around the o and D lines!!!) Mayo, Gronk and Hern, you cannot sign 42 million dollar above average free safeties like Goldson, and great but 1 trick run stuffers like Red Bryant to 35 million(brings nothing to our need for pass rushing DT's)

    You contradict yourself and have backed yourself into a corner where you have condemned pretty much every move BB has made. You now say you wouldn't have signed Moss, Dillion, Adalius,  Stalworth, Hernadez, Gronk, etc... but you aren't using hindsight..., sure thing my man! Sure thing!

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Patriots Dead Money

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    I think talking about red flags for Hernandez with regards to the murder is silly  At the end of the day an incredibly low percentage of the population actually murders someone.  I guarantee you there are thousands of people (many who probably currently play in the NFL) that have the exact same "profile" as Hernandez that have not and never will murder someone during their lifetime.  I don't think any NFL FO when making contract decisions worries about murder being the worst case scenario.



    No one thought he'd murder someone, but given the information we know now (about his past history and locker room incidents not about murders, info BB would of had prior to signing an extension), would you give him such a big extension 2yrs into his rook deal or would you wait it out a little longer and see how he matured within that rook deal? That's what we are saying, if it was just pot that's one thing and that extension all for it but now knowing about the gang connections, the issues in Florida, the questioning over a shooting, the assault arrest, and then him basically picking fights in the locker room? You would do that extension? If so why aren't they looking to extend Dennard right now. Because they want to wait and see how he matures after punching the cop, it's that simple. Players with questionable pasts the longer you wait the more you'll see if they changed or not. No need to sign someone so early to big dollars within that time period.



    Sometimes you over analyze things and loose site of the reality PE.

    First off you continue to reference what happened at FL, or speculations that supposedly were the case some probably true and some not but all prior to being a NE Patriot.

    I already posted on here that the NFL investigators call BS on all the supposed facts that were known and whether they were any worse than a number of other players that come out every year.

    Second, usually you go more by what you see on a daily basis of how someone is working for you, especially two years worth of being around that person. NOT what they did with someone else years prior. Some people change, some people grow. You go by what they show you and how they act around you and how they perform for you.

    You're an engineer right? For the sake of discussion, let's say you are a kick azz engineer but from another country who's culture is less tactful and speak your mind and call things as you see it and it ruffles the feathers of some of your coworkers and not everyone is your biggest fan. However you still work well with them even if heated arguments break out occasionally. You are a big reason for great work ultimately getting done. I am giving you a raise and keeping you around not worrying that not everyone thinks you're a swell guy.

    Third, we hear all the time about fights breaking out between the  overly competitive, alpha male dominated sport of the NFL. It's not a civilized tea party. We hear about things like this around the NFL often and probably don't hear about it, even though it happens often with the pats too because they are a tighter run and better managed organization. Players will be more likely to be loose lipped over a player they were not the biggest fan of who is no longer their teammate than one who still is. The 53 guys on the roster are not all great friends holding hands.

    The Patriots are not handing over that kind of money to someone they have any major concern about as having previously shown anything egregiously different than probably a number of other players have shown before.

    Unless you think everyone in the Patriots organization is a complete dumbazz and is in the biz of throwing money down the toilet then AH had them fooled.

    You are so over the top with your 2nd guessing sometimes it comes across as sanctimonious and generally very unlike you.

     
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