Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    rusty, stop saying "why me?" , why isnt anyone saying this and that to this person. It makes you look childish.

    Fact is I only chimed in here to ask why you called us a SB team, and to this point, hours later, I still have not got an answer. I also got no reponse as to why you referred to A.D. as an all pro in 07' when he wasnt.

    I only chimed in on the topic of the O/P recently when someone said the 08' draft was no good.  I dont have a say in this argument about  B.B. drafting. I just want everyone to stay with the facts so the arguments are fair.

    So, you ready yet to address my original post?
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    "Imagine if NE hadn't won a 3 SB in 4 years in 2005 with Mankins?  Some apparenrtly would have had temper tantrums back then, too."


    Rusty, what the hell are you talking about here?  Slow down, and post something that makes sense. I know you want to post all over the board, but it makes your points more watered down and with no substance.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective : Exactly. There are tons of examples just like this one. People keep bringing up the whole Clay Matthews thing, but that is overhyped. I agree that GB was the only team that nailed it by looking at him, so you can't fault BB necessarily for that one. However, it comes down to just more than missing guys. Misses happen all the time, and even I expect BB the magnificent to miss on occasion. Why I have an issue with his misses is because; 1. They are numerous especially in BB's sweet spot of the draft (2nd & 3rd round) 2. Same position, different kid drafted 1-15 spots behind our draftee ends up the better pick. This has happened on multiple occasions. Jay references Dunlap & Cunningham, there is also Tate and Wallace, Wheatley and Molden, etc., etc. IF we have good talent evaluators, why do we consistenly miss in rounds 2 & 3, when the same position/different kid is drafted 1-15 spots after us and ends up the better player? Yes, I know BB is human, but he is also elite in this league. I don't expect elite to flub the 2nd and 3rd round up continously and pick the inferior player.  3. They have caused us to stack this roster with 6th, 7th and UDFA talent in key positions. There is a reason 1st, 2nd and 3rd round players are drafted there. Because they are more talented than late round picks and those undrafted. This is not always true, but it is for the vast majority otherwise kids wouldn't be ranked and teams fighting for draft position. 4. They have caused us to draft teh same position (CB) year after year due to failure, or rely on other teams jags like Molden, Adams, Ihedigbo, etc. unneccesarily. Rusty can spin how good our defense is, and wow GB is ranked 31st against the pass, but the truth is there is a reason our defense is not that good. Look at the individual goods and you kind of see how it shapes up to produce a product. A master like BB can disguise weakness to an extent, but when the game is on the line like in the playoffs, good teams will expose weakness. Okay Russ, I concede..yes, Brady and the Offense are the cause for all our ills, they lost us SB42, and the last 2 playoff games, cost us at least 2 games this year, etc., etc. Again, without a QB like Brady, this team goes nowhere. Do you think this defense could carry a mediocre offense? I think teh San Fran analogy is right on. Their defense wins games and allows Smith to manage things rather than shouldering the load and putting it all on his shoulders as does Brady. If you can't see that Brady is the mechanism that makes this team tick, and you think our defense isn't the real problem due to the above reasons, I'm not sure how to convince you.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    You make some good points.

    But if I may, I'd like to point out that since 2009 BB has drafted Chung, Vollmer, Gronkowski and Spikes in the 2nd round, so they haven't been ALL bad.

    His third rounders of recent vintage have missed, by and large (Ridley might be able to break that losing streak, we'll see); so maybe he should just skip that one and trade for a 2nd rounder into the following year whenever his turn comes about in Round 3 every April? That really seems to be his big trouble round, not the 2nd.
     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]What? Why are we a SB team? Good coach, good QB, good Run D, depth, some experience now on D, health, division lead, favorable schedule, etc. Is that addressing your original post that I didn't see on a "objective draft thread" as you try to deflect? lmao
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    I thought you said we were going nowhere with Brady playing the way he is?

    I feel bad for all those other teams positioning for playoff berths only to find out that we already are the Sb team.  You sound like a Jets fan now.


    Ok, Im done for the day. People are gonna see me going back and forth with you and think I like arguing. It was fun calling you out though.

    You missed two other things too. A.D being All-Pro in 07'....Care to expand on that?

    It was Vrabel...so why did you make that up?
     
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    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]NE drafted Mankins in 2005. Mankins was meant to go in Round 2. Kiper didn't even have a notesheet on him when NE selected him 32nd overall. So, if NE hadn't won SBs in those 2003 and 2004 seasonse, would fans have flipped out at the choice? That's what I said and what I mean. Read the whole post. Some base the drafts on who they want based on what college programs they watch and completely ignore/don't know what BB's approach is.  You don't know what BB is doing. The same thing happened this year. No DE or OLB help in the draft, but BB signs Carter, Ellis and Anderson for the rush and switched to a 4-3. No substance my azss.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]


    what you meant to say maybe but it came out looking all wrong. Sounds like you are saying we won the SB 3 times in one year. You are a special person, and I dont mean that in a good way.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective : 3 SBs in 4 years came out wrong?  If you had read the previous portion of the post like an adult, you'd see "in 2005" meant a reference to the 2005 draft. I think you came out into this world wrong, Shizzly. Let us know when you get a college degree (of some kind - trust us it makes you a better and more intelligent person) and make more than 25,000 per year sitting in a "shift" at the call center. lol
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]



    Step right up and get your Rusty's Snake Oil right here while supplies last!


     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]Do I need to make a photoshop of you in diapers and Jay in a call center at a catalog company with a headset on? Really?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    The only thing you need to do is stop being an idiot. I know that's asking a lot.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective : Step right up and get your Rusty's Snake Oil right here while supplies last!
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    LMFAO what is that picture?  I don't know why, but something about the burger king's face on that photo cracks me up.
     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]It's a funny character. How is a stoned person in a king's outfit not funny?
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, but there's something about that magician outfit that really ties it together for me.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective : LMFAO what is that picture?  I don't know why, but something about the burger king's face on that photo cracks me up.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]


    It's just some google image of a snake oil salesman with burger king pasted in.  A quickie.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from mlgvt48. Show mlgvt48's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    Very interesting article. It reminds me of Sabermetrics in baseball. Basically because drafting has a fair amount of uncertainty having lots of picks makes your team better overall. But this is a game of averages and I think the Patriots do an excellent job of that overall. However look at the top value groups. There are a lot more impact players in these groups and just a few impact players can make your team so much better. This is where I think people criticize Belichick. He often bypasses players in the top value groups and then moves down for more picks. This improves his average but gives him less chance of finding a gem. For example in the last draft he traded down with Dallas who picked Dez Bryant.  Imagine him as our deep threat now.
     
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  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from sml1210. Show sml1210's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective : You're taking a pretty wide berth here, I think. If you're going to go back to the 2005 draft (seven seasons ago), then you can't say "these are the only guys they have left from the drafts during these years..." The fact is that the 2005 draft, on balance, was a good one for New England. Mankins is a stud. Kaczur started for several years and was the starting RT on the only 16-0 regular season team in NFL history, before injuries cut his career short. Ellis Hobbs and James Sanders were starters and solid contributors (Hobbs on special teams, in particular) for quite a few seasons. And Matt Cassel, the 7th round pick, helped them go 11-5 without Brady in 2008 and then was traded for a 2nd rounder that turned into Patrick Chung. You simply cannot evaluate 2005's draft strictly from the prism of "what do they have left today from that draft?" That's flawed and unfair. 2006, I'll grant you, wasn't a good draft, though I think if you asked a lot of GMs about that draft they'd hold their noses and say, "stunk through and through." 2007 was a "trade for veterans and try to win now" draft. Meriweather wasn't a great pick, but it wasn't for lack of talent, which he most definitely displayed in college. 2008 has produced more than just Mayo, really, or have you forgotten that he also signed the Law Firm as a UDFA and he became the Pats' first 1,000 yard rusher since Corey Dillon last season? Slater is also one of the better special teams gunners in the NFL--not a "sexy" position, but an important one (he also was just a fifth rounder). Yes, there were some misses in the 2nd and 3rd rounds that year, but as others have pointed out, that was another thin draft class overall, and to come away with BJGE, Mayo and Slater from that draft is pretty good IMO. 2009 has given them Chung, Vollmer and, when healthy, a pretty good player in Myron Pryor, who was playing very well before he got hurt this year. They also signed Hoyer as a UDFA that season. Darius Butler? Well, that didn't work out, but almost every pre-draft publication had Butler listed as a low-first, early-to-mid second rounder, and had him as one of the higher-rated CBs coming out that year----mid-second is where BB took him, so he certainly wasn't going against convention there.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

    Do you even read the responses before you go back to the fridge for another Kool-Aid slurp?

    I said on the team NOW. But I'll indulge you a bit. Hobbs was a smurf who had trouble covering man to man any receiver taller than 5'10". Sanders was an adequate third safety, but started here due to a lack of defensive backfield talent. He can barely get any snaps in Atlanta, so let's not turn him into Polamalu. Kacsur was an adequate right tackle who had real trouble with speed rushers. Cassel's the starting QB in KC; how exactly does that help the Patriots again other than he turned into Chung who is already included in the list of 5? Meri rides the bench in Chicago; probably not exactly what BB was looking for. Benny was a UFA not a draft pick; this thread is about his DRAFTING RECORD which is why he wasn't mentioned...like Welker was a trade and thus wasn't mentioned either. Slater? Seriously? A fifth round special teamer? Isn't that the definition of a JAG, like Pryor?

    Maybe if you could come down off your Kool-Aid high, you'd understand that my point was that if a team comes out of a recent five year period with 5 starters/contributors from its drafts, there's nowhere else to turn to but UFA's and JAGs to fill the 53 man roster in addition to the past two drafts. And it's still way to early to assess what he drafted in 2010 and 2011; some of the 2010 kids already have been productive, but not all of them will be - the jury is still out on McCourty after his performance earlier this year, Cunningham has disappeared. No rational person (yes, that means you BK) should be shouting at the top of their lungs how great either of the last two drafts was; we'll all just have to wait and see. But try to at least keep an open mind on whether his drafting record is open to scrutiny.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from sml1210. Show sml1210's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]Couldn't read the entire piece since I'm not an 'Insider' but I think I get the direction that he's taking:  BB the GM hasn't let down BB the coach, talent-wise overall.   If I may, sml1210, please correct me if I'm mistaken. 
    Posted by ATJ[/QUOTE]

    Actually, it's a very balanced arcticle presenting arguments for and against. Something like this thread where the Kool-Aider's attack anyone questioning BB's track record as a GM.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from sml1210. Show sml1210's posts

    Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective

    In Response to Re: Patriots draft record - a more objective perspective:
    [QUOTE]After Round 1, the 2008 draft has incredible drop off as compared to other drafts. I could care less if you "found talent".
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE

    That's news to Jordy Nelson, Matt Forte, DeSean Jackson and Cliff Avril to name a few...
     
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