Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

         Here's an opinion on the Pats draft that seems to mirror mine (with the exception of the Solder pick), and that of the Kentucky Babe: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/688055-2011-nfl-draft-grades-evaluating-experts-grades-from-around-the-web/entry/77243-2011-nfl-draft-grades-new-england-patriots-have-strange-draft-to-grade
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

    The problem with the folks who think BB is an average at best GM is that they don't have anybody to compare in the league with the exception of maybe Pittsburgh.  To stay at the top and consistently draft at the end of the order is truly something.  Always there.

    Another angst is the last two playoff losses.  They can't differentiate the two and the differences are glaring.

    You have to question the mantra.  No pass rush therefore BB can't draft and the draft is poor.  Silly. 
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

    Chad Finn reminds us that "none of us knows a damn thing", http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/05/pass_rusher.html
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]Chad Finn reminds us that "none of us knows a damn thing", http://www.boston.com/sports/touching_all_the_bases/2011/05/pass_rusher.html
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]

         Amen, brother Digger! Thanks for posting this great article!
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD :      Kentucky Babe:      Do you have any complaints about the 2010 draft? The "average at best" GM, BB, seemingly didn't fare too badly then, did he? He drafted a pro-bowl CB in Devin McCourty...a potential pro-bowl caliber TE in Rob Gronkowski...a 3-4 OLB with pass-rush potential in Jermaine Cunningham...and, if he can keep his head on straight, a potential beast of an ILB in Brandon Spikes. Plus ...he made  two lopsided trades, which netted the Pats the 33rd and 74th overall picks in this draft . Please enlighten us as to which other GM fared better in 2010??   
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    That draft was better than many of his.

    I thought there were greater needs than TE. We got by with Watson for a while and he was nothing special (oh yeah, another stellar BB #1 pick). Picking up an extra warm body for that would have been easy enough.

    Spikes and Cunningham so far  are no better than the warm bodies we have had hanging around for years.

    We spent a 3rd rounder for a WR that might as well be non-existent.

    McCourty looks like a good one. Hey, imagine that, actually using your first round picks gets you good player - amazing.

    But still, he had drafted high 3/4 of the D in the 3 previous drafts and the D is still shaky. That says a LOT.

    Who has done better? Well the Colts, Steelers, Saints, Pack and Giants have all won SBs more recently than BB, so - them GMs.

    We can spin BB's genius til the cows come home, but the bottom line is the bottom line - 0 for the last 6 for the SB, featuring one and out the last 2 years, and a 5-5 playoff record in the last 6 years, and the one year he didn't have Brady, he couldn't make the playoffs.


     
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]     Here's an opinion on the Pats draft that seems to mirror mine (with the exception of the Solder pick), and that of the Kentucky Babe: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/688055-2011-nfl-draft-grades-evaluating-experts-grades-from-around-the-web/entry/77243-2011-nfl-draft-grades-new-england-patriots-have-strange-draft-to-grade
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    I do agree with that assessment - a lot. Why BB did not move up for Quinn and take Carimi later is a mystery to me. I couldn't believe Quinn dropped that low.
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : I do agree with that assessment - a lot. Why BB did not move up for Quinn and take Carimi later is a mystery to me.
     
    RESPONSE: Remember Vernon Gholston? How do you know that Quinn will amount to anything? How do you know if BB was able to move up to take Quinn, without mortgaging the farm? Even if BB had been able to do so, then the Pats' wouldn't have been able to land LT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett, and OT/OG Marcus Cannon (which they in essence acquired for their 60th overall pick). Yes, the Pats need a pass-rusher. But protecting Tom Brady is job one. So...LT was the greater need, and Solder was the safer pick. 

    I couldn't believe Quinn dropped that low.

    RESPONSE: Quinn dropped to #14 overall. Could it be that BB and others knew far more about Quinn than we? Quinn also is a bit of a medical risk:
    http://www.npr.org/2011/04/24/135658540/neither-ban-nor-tumor-can-stop-top-nfl-prospect?ft=1&f=100
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : That draft was better than many of his. I thought there were greater needs than TE. We got by with Watson for a while and he was nothing special (oh yeah, another stellar BB #1 pick). Picking up an extra warm body for that would have been easy enough.
     
    RESPONSE: Oh come now, Babe! Who could BB have selected in 2010 that was a better pick for this team than Gronk? TE was not a major need? The Pats had nothing on the roster at TE but Alge Crumpler. Gronkowski has pro-bowl potential, and is a force in the red-zone. What "warm body" could have matched Gronk's outstanding production last season?

    Spikes and Cunningham so far are no better than the warm bodies we have had hanging around for years.
     
    RESPONSE: Surely you jest! What "warm bodies" have the Pats had in the past that were as good a set of prospects as Spikes and Cunningham? What "warm bodies" in the past were able to step in and start as rookies? If these guys remain healthy, they will continue to evolve into solid contributors.

    We spent a 3rd rounder for a WR that might as well be non-existent.
     
    RESPONSE: WR Taylor Price was taken with a low 3rd round pick...90th overall. Who would you have preferred BB to take instead? Judging from the fact that BB did not draft a WR this year, he must have seen something that he likes in this kid. Price has has the size (6'0") and speed (sub 4.40 forty) to be successful. Let's see how he progresses this season. 

    McCourty looks like a good one. Hey, imagine that, actually using your first round picks gets you good player - amazing.
     
    RESPONSE: McCourty "looks like a good one"? He made the pro-bowl as a rookie! So...wouldn't you agree that it's more accurate to say that he is a good one? How 'bout Ty Warren in 2003, Vince Wilfolk in 2004, Logan Mankins in 2005, Brandon Meriweather in 2007, and Jerod Mayo in 2008? All turned out to be pro-bowl caliber players.  

    But still, he had drafted high 3/4 of the D in the 3 previous drafts and the D is still shaky. That says a LOT.
     
    RESPONSE: A 14-2 record during a so called rebuilding year says a LOT.

    Who has done better? Well the Colts, Steelers, Saints, Pack and Giants have all won SBs more recently than BB, so - them GMs.
     
    RESPONSE: The Colts stole one from the Pats, thanks to biased officiating. The Pats, generally speaking, have owned the Steelers over the past 5 years. The Saints, Giants, and Pack qualify as having done nothing, other than being one year wonders...though the Packers appear to be very formidable in 2011. Still, their secondary is ancient.  

    We can spin BB's genius til the cows come home, but the bottom line is the bottom line - 0 for the last 6 for the SB, featuring one and out the last 2 years, and a 5-5 playoff record in the last 6 years, and the one year he didn't have Brady, he couldn't make the playoffs.
     
    RESPONSE: Though that's a true stat, it's also an unfair one. The Pats got jobbed in 2006, came within two minutes of being named the greatest team of all-time in 2007, and were the best team in the AFC, save for an admittedly horrendous playoff performance against the Jets. But, other than Green Bay, who do you see as being the team to beat in the NFL in 2011-2013? 
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : I am glad too that a few of us are daring to question the genius. I was drinking the kool-aide until about 4 years ago. Of course 2007 was a shot in the arm against any suspicions that BB was not this infallible team builder. But looking back at it all, at his entire history, especially without Brady, it was pretty convincing that he is a great Xs and Os guy, but not a top GM. I love my fellow Pat's fans and don't take pleasure in pointing out their hero isn't all he's cracked up to be. But more than my fellow fans I love my team. And anybody, including the genius, that is not doing right by that team is going to be called out by me. Maybe if some more of us started demanding more Kraft would get wind and bring in somebody with better team building skills for GM and let Bill do what he does well - coach. This was a critical draft. In order to get a D in place that was championship worthy and do that within the window of the few prime years Brady has left this draft LOADED with outstanding front 7 guys needed to be hit hard. That opportunity could not have been blown in a worse way by Matt Millen. It is impossible to fathom what the hell Hoodie is thinking. After some pretty lame drafting for some years he finally hit it big with McCourty last year  (and Mayo before that), only to completely miss the boat yet again. He has drafted nearly 3/4 worth of the D with 1st or 2nd round picks in the 3 previous years and the D is still highly suspect. That is no genius.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    "And anybody, including the genius, that is not doing right by that team is going to be called out by me. "

    go man go. it's your / our team too. we've got a right to fight for it (for good decision-making, organization,etc - not fight literally)

    "hat opportunity could not have been blown in a worse way by Matt Millen."

    whoa man, that's driving a point home.

    not sure about that one, millen, whoa.

    yeah with 9 opportunities we could have done a LOT of damage on the front 7.
    sure we needed o lin and a tall db is great. but you cant not prioritize the weakest part of our team for 3 years when you have 9 picks.

    cripes, see green bay picking last, houston-had a terrible defense-their picks change that overnight.

    we'll see if  the risks payoff, but regardless, there should have been more priority at de and olb.

    thanks babeparilli.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : Well said. Notice the best players on the D are all 1st rounders. What is truly maddening, is that he keeps trading down for the future. But guess what Bill? There is no damned future when Brady is gone! You will never get that lucky again in your life! You don't have time to screw around like you have been, and now it's most  likely too late. He always says he's going to do what's best for the team. No he isn't. He's going to do what feeds his control freak needs. Get somebody in there who can evaluate talent! Hell, there were a ton of ordinary fans saying pick Matthews a few years back. But there's Bill trading out of the 1st entirely and giving us Chung, Brace and Butler in the 2nd. Sheesh. And while I'm at it, what is with the on the job training of inexperienced coaches? Get some experienced people. This one man show doesn't get it done!
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    hey babe, you are onto it. i posted some analysis of the errors and the habits which led to the predictable conclusions of bb's personality, his strengths and particularly, weaknesses that explain everything from asst coach choices to draft choices. it was in the mb draft thread (the 7500 posts one).

    incidentally do you know how to navigate seeing a persons post past the first 10 or so, my attempts seem to only pull up the first page, then it shoots me over to the thread of the last post on that page (but never to the rest of the posts from any person)?
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]The problem with the folks who think BB is an average at best GM is that they don't have anybody to compare in the league with the exception of maybe Pittsburgh.  To stay at the top and consistently draft at the end of the order is truly something.  Always there. Another angst is the last two playoff losses.  They can't differentiate the two and the differences are glaring. You have to question the mantra.  No pass rush therefore BB can't draft and the draft is poor.  Silly. 
    Posted by garytx[/QUOTE]

    hi gartyx,

    "To stay at the top and consistently draft at the end of the order is truly something."

    bb's strengths, including in the draft, are glaring, apparently though his weaknesses are glaring only to some.


     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : I do agree with that assessment - a lot. Why BB did not move up for Quinn and take Carimi later is a mystery to me. I couldn't believe Quinn dropped that low.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    babe, did you read my post after the jets game analyzing the pats needs and the changes that needed to be made?  quinn was the second player on my list after dareus for the pats as far as need and fit (of course dareus was too high to get) mayock 2 months later had the same opinion.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]


    " Remember Vernon Gholston? How do you know that Quinn will amount to anything?



    the truth is we will never know because bb wont take the stud de or olb
    but you can say the same about almost all our picks, they were more risky than quinn (see walter football analysis for reference)



     How do you know if BB was able to move up to take Quinn, without mortgaging the farm?


    mortgaging the farm to move above 14?


     Even if BB had been able to do so, then the Pats' wouldn't have been able to land LT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett, and OT/OG Marcus Cannon (which they in essence acquired for their 60th overall pick). Yes, the Pats need a pass-rusher. But protecting Tom Brady is job one. So...LT was the greater need, and Solder was the safer pick. 


    I couldn't believe Quinn dropped that low.

    RESPONSE: Quinn dropped to #14 overall. Could it be that BB and others knew far more about Quinn than we? Quinn also is a bit of a medical risk:"




     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]


    "RESPONSE: Though that's a true stat, it's also an unfair one. The Pats got jobbed in 2006, came within two minutes of being named the greatest team of all-time in 2007, and were the best team in the AFC, save for an admittedly horrendous playoff performance against the Jets. But, other than Green Bay, who do you see as being the team to beat in the NFL in 2011-2013? "

    this brings another criticism i want to bring to light. i always found bb a little too conservative in game calling. made for extremely close super bowls when we won them (which is why i wouldnt make that criticism on these games alone) and made our chances of winning in the playoffs since o4 and in sb 2007 less likely because of it.
     
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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]


    RESPONSE: Oh come now, Babe! Who could BB have selected in 2010 that was a better pick for this team than Gronk? TE was not a major need? The Pats had nothing on the roster at TE but Alge Crumpler. Gronkowski has pro-bowl potential, and is a force in the red-zone. What "warm body" could have matched Gronk's outstanding production last season?

    The point is, our O has been a top one for years. It's not that Gronk was so bad as a stand alone pick. It was just not optimal in the light of need.
     
    RESPONSE: Surely you jest! What "warm bodies" have the Pats had in the past that were as good a set of prospects as Spikes and Cunningham? What "warm bodies" in the past were able to step in and start as rookies? If these guys remain healthy, they will continue to evolve into solid contributors.

    I have not seen a dramatic impact that is any better than Banta or Guyton provided. I would be very pleased to join in the song of adoration on this once the evolution you speak of evinces itself.
     
    RESPONSE: WR Taylor Price was taken with a low 3rd round pick...90th overall. Who would you have preferred BB to take instead? Judging from the fact that BB did not draft a WR this year, he must have seen something that he likes in this kid. Price has has the size (6'0") and speed (sub 4.40 forty) to be successful. Let's see how he progresses this season. 

    Bottom line TP. If you deviate from the bottom line, you are probably spinning. So far, nada from this relatively high pick.
     
    RESPONSE: McCourty "looks like a good one"? He made the pro-bowl as a rookie! So...wouldn't you agree that it's more accurate to say that he is a good one? How 'bout Ty Warren in 2003, Vince Wilfolk in 2004, Logan Mankins in 2005, Brandon Meriweather in 2007, and Jerod Mayo in 2008? All turned out to be pro-bowl caliber players.  

    "Looks like a good one" isn't good enough? Just as I admit there is the possibility that a Spikes could improve even if his immediate impact has been a yawn, I would have to also admit McCourty regressing is a possibility as well. So far so good with him. I reserve final judgement for 2-3 years on a guy. Either way.
     
    RESPONSE: A 14-2 record during a so called rebuilding year says a LOT.

    Why were we "rebuilding" again? Oh yeah, poor team building.
     
    RESPONSE: The Colts stole one from the Pats, thanks to biased officiating. The Pats, generally speaking, have owned the Steelers over the past 5 years. The Saints, Giants, and Pack qualify as having done nothing, other than being one year wonders...though the Packers appear to be very formidable in 2011. Still, their secondary is ancient.  

    That's interesting information TP, but it does not change the fact that those teams all did what we could not over that period of time. So, logic says the people building those teams were doing a better job.
     
    RESPONSE: Though that's a true stat, it's also an unfair one. The Pats got jobbed in 2006, came within two minutes of being named the greatest team of all-time in 2007, and were the best team in the AFC, save for an admittedly horrendous playoff performance against the Jets. But, other than Green Bay, who do you see as being the team to beat in the NFL in 2011-2013? 

    I used to make excuses. I used to rationalize this stuff. But I'm tired of that. I want the problem corrected. The problem is the choices BB has made as GM. At this point the ballgame is over. We MIGHT win another SB before Brady either retires or diminishes in impact, but I doubt it. The later Brady years have been squandered by BB because he is an average GM. Yeah, it's a bitter pill, but it looks very convincingly like the bottom line to me.

    I hope I'm dead wrong TP, and we see at least a couple SB wins in the next 4-6 years. I'm not holding my breath though. BB has turned us into the Colts.

    (Oh, the team to beat? Don't know. The usual suspects are still around. The problem is; we aren't clearly the team to beat. We used to be until BB let the D go to seed.)
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

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    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]



    RESPONSE: Remember Vernon Gholston? How do you know that Quinn will amount to anything? How do you know if BB was able to move up to take Quinn, without mortgaging the farm? Even if BB had been able to do so, then the Pats' wouldn't have been able to land LT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett, and OT/OG Marcus Cannon (which they in essence acquired for their 60th overall pick). Yes, the Pats need a pass-rusher. But protecting Tom Brady is job one. So...LT was the greater need, and Solder was the safer pick. 

    We do know that Quinn would probably do better than the NOTHING BB selected to address the worldwide consensus of what we need. We do not know what he would have had to give to move up 3-4 picks, but formulas show we certainly had plenty to do so. What would we have had to give up? Probably, worst case. we would have had to throw in one of the 2nd round picks BB specializes in squandering away on no impact players. Solder was not necessarily a safer pick than Carimi. Many boards had him rated higher.

    RESPONSE: Quinn dropped to #14 overall. Could it be that BB and others knew far more about Quinn than we? Quinn also is a bit of a medical risk:

    #14 is still very high. Quinn's tumor has been successfully dealt with and the prognosis is quite good. Odd how you tout Cannon, who has not been given a clean bill of health, but question Quinn.

    Even if Quinn was not an advisable move there is no excuse to have not addressed the OLB/DE situation in a draft rich at those positions and possessing 4 picks in the first 2 rounds.

    I read BB saying a lot of those types were being picked. Well yeah Bill, there would be that tendency since the draft had a lot of good ones of that type.
     
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    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : " Remember Vernon Gholston? How do you know that Quinn will amount to anything? the truth is we will never know because bb wont take the stud de or olb but you can say the same about almost all our picks, they were more risky than quinn (see walter football analysis for reference)
     
    RESPONSE: You probably were opposed to the McCourty and Mankins picks, too.  I too  have criticized BB...but not for his selection of Solder at #17. That was necessary...and more important than trading up to get a hybrid DE/OLB. Where are the Pats if something happens to Tom Brady?

     How do you know if BB was able to move up to take Quinn, without mortgaging the farm? mortgaging the farm to move above 14?
     
    RESPONSE: Yes indeed. Washington at #10 wanted to move down. They traded their 10th overall pick to Jacksonville, for the Jags' 16th and 41st overall selections. According to the NFL draft value chart, the 10th overall pick was worth 1300 points...the 16th overall pick was worth 1000, and the 41st was worth 390. So, for the Pats to have moved up to #10, they would have had to have parted with their 17th overall pick (goodbye, Nate Solder), valued at 950 points, their 60th overall pick (goodbye, Ryan Mallett and Marcus Cannon), valued at 300 points, and, most likely, their 92nd overall selection, valued at 132 points (goodbye, Raiders' 2012 second round pick). 

     Even if BB had been able to do so, then the Pats' wouldn't have been able to land LT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett, and OT/OG Marcus Cannon (which they in essence acquired for their 60th overall pick). Yes, the Pats need a pass-rusher. But protecting Tom Brady is job one. So...LT was the greater need, and Solder was the safer pick.  I couldn't believe Quinn dropped that low.
     
    RESPONSE: And?? Are you saying that moving up to get Quinn would have been worth losing Nate Solder, Rayan Mallett, Marcus Cannon, and the Raiders' 2nd round pick, in 2012?

    RESPONSE: Quinn dropped to #14 overall. Could it be that BB and others knew far more about Quinn than we? Quinn also is a bit of a medical risk:"
    Posted by brdbreu[/QUOTE]
     
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    [QUOTE]Totally irrational to say it's "poor team building" when the Pats are doing it, and the only reason it's considered "poor" by an irrational Pats fan (or fans) is because there is no SB victory tied to it.  Just dummy logic for effect, apparently. How do draf picks in 2006, 2007 and 2008 get experience in a 3-4 when the starters playing in the 3-4 are so effective?  This means BB wanted to max out the roster at that time, maximizing what he had.  It's also likely the reason why he went for the jugular, so to speak, in the 2007 draft by dealing picks and using those to balance out the offense all in one fell swoop. The NFL is clearly the most difficult of the cap leagues (NHL and NBA 2nd and 3rd for difficulty) because it's a 53 man roster. Babe Parilli is the kind of fan who clearly doesn't follow the rest of the NFL.  It;s very obvious. The Steelers miseed the playoffs 2 years ago.  How is their "poor team building"? They are also very old on the front 7 (MLB and Defensive Line). Ziggy Hood and Cameron Heyward BEST be the answers, otherwise, you are looking at a downward spiral for them in this area, especially if Woodley leaves after 2011 and if Dick LeBeau does indeed retire. The reality is, there is a very short list of organizations who "get it". Only in very recent years with a lot of the aging, old school GMs leaving to retire, etc, has some organizations improved in these areas. Al Davis, Jerry Jones, even Dan Snyder have yet to make the changes to adapt to essentially the proven approach developed by people like Belichick, Polian, the Rooneys, Andy Reid, Jerry Reese with the Giants, Mickey Lookis in New Orleans and Ted Thompson in Denver. Obviously, Pioli and Dimitrioff learned from one of the best, if not the best. Do the math. You either have a legit GM or you don't.  Look at Carolina.  Totally botched like 3 drafts, gave out outlandish contracts overpaying for overrated talent, ignored their lines, and then got NO return on Peppers. Meanwhile, BB got return on Seymour.  You'e dumb or intentionally dumb to play troll. You know very, very little about economics and what Belichick's plans are.  For all we know, he tosses a 1st rd pick in 2012 for a legitimate 3-4 OLB to go opposite Cunningham. Unlikely, but we don't know the full picture yet. You are the fan that isn't secure because you don't see the names on the jerseys that give you that security,. You see names you don't know or want to write off, while the rest of us WATCH the players develop and take the best coaching in the league. In other words, after all this, you still don't get it.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    Just wondering if you actually believe your own BS. But then that is what kool-aide does. Spin it however you like to make your delusions seem real. But the bottom line is the reality.

    And this troll nonsense you humiliate yourself with is just one of the side effects of the kool-aide. If somebody doesn't make excuses like you do for failure they must be a troll. Classic kool-aider.
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

    I am quite certain, if BB had moved up and taken Quinn then taken Carimi at #28 just about everybody here that defends what he actually did would be RAVING about how brilliant he is.

    And thus, if you self reflect, you will see you are spinning under heavy dose of kool-aide when you tout this draft.
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD

    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD : RESPONSE: Remember Vernon Gholston? How do you know that Quinn will amount to anything? How do you know if BB was able to move up to take Quinn, without mortgaging the farm? Even if BB had been able to do so, then the Pats' wouldn't have been able to land LT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett, and OT/OG Marcus Cannon (which they in essence acquired for their 60th overall pick). Yes, the Pats need a pass-rusher. But protecting Tom Brady is job one. So...LT was the greater need, and Solder was the safer pick.  We do know that Quinn would probably do better than the NOTHING BB selected to address the worldwide consensus of what we need. We do not know what he would have had to give to move up 3-4 picks, but formulas show we certainly had plenty to do so. What would we have had to give up? Probably, worst case. we would have had to throw in one of the 2nd round picks BB specializes in squandering away on no impact players. Solder was not necessarily a safer pick than Carimi. Many boards had him rated higher.
     
    RESPONSE:  Again, surely you jest, Babe. What nonsense that the Pats got nothing with their second rounders. Rob Gronkowski, Jermaine Cunningham, Brandon Spikes, and Sabastien Vollmer, Patrick Chung, represent nothing?? 

         An examination of the draft order, and who selected who, seems to indicate that, if the Pats wanted to trade up, Washington at #10 was their only willing partner. Jacksonville at #16 had to move up to #10 to get Blaine Gabbert, whom the Vikings surely would have taken at #12. Houston, at #11, was in dire need of a CB or pass-rushing DE. But, Wade Phillips, who also runs a 3-4, passed on Quinn, in favor of J.J. Watt. No way Detroit was trading out of the 13th spot, with Nick Fairley and Prince Amukamara available there. And, of course, the Rams selected Quinn, at #14. They saw Quinn as a DE, not a hybrid 3-4 OLB, as they play a 4-3. For these reasons, the Pats likely would have had to have given up their 17th, 60th, and 92nd overall picks to had moved up.  The move from #16 to #10 cost the Jags their 16th and 41st overall picks.

         So, had the Pats traded up, it likely would have cost them OT Nate Solder, QB Ryan Mallett and OT/OG Marcus Cannon, plus the Raiders' 2012 second round pick (acquired from Uncle Al  for their 92nd and 125th selections), to land Quinn at #10 (see above post for further details). 

         Are you seriously arguing that Quinn was worth all that? Frankly, if the Pats had moved up to #10, I'd rather have seen them take Nick Fairley, and play him at 3-4 DE.


    RESPONSE: Quinn dropped to #14 overall. Could it be that BB and others knew far more about Quinn than we? Quinn also is a bit of a medical risk: #14 is still very high. Quinn's tumor has been successfully dealt with and the prognosis is quite good. Odd how you tout Cannon, who has not been given a clean bill of health, but question Quinn. Even if Quinn was not an advisable move there is no excuse to have not addressed the OLB/DE situation in a draft rich at those positions and possessing 4 picks in the first 2 rounds. I read BB saying a lot of those types were being picked. Well yeah Bill, there would be that tendency since the draft had a lot of good ones of that type.

    RESPONSE: As stated in my Report Card, which is the initial post in this thread, I too criticized some of BB's moves...namely the handling of the 33rd, 56th, and 60th overall selections. I felt that BB could have, and should have, gotten more value out of those selections, than he actually did. BUT...Ras-I Dowling came recommended to BB by Al Groh...just as Logan Mankins came recommended to BB by his college coach, and BB friend, Pat Hill. That's good enough for me. The use of the 56th pick bothers me tthe most...as I felt that RB Shane Vereen could have been had later...and RB Mikel Leshoure, troubled DE/OLB Justin Houston, and WR Randall Cobb, were still on the board.  Nonetheless, I bow to BB's football acumen, and reserve judgment.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD (Rounds 1-3)

    In Response to Re: Patriots Draft REPORT CARD (Rounds 1-3):
    [QUOTE]Love Solder. He was the best pure prospect on the board really at that time on many boards, and the best OL in the draft. Also, I had Mallett as the best QB in the draft, and hoped he would slip so NE could groom him for a few seasons. I like the trade outs, so long as the players NE selected were ok. Otherwise, they just pushed some picks along till next season .. effectively trading a second for a second and a first for a first, which is ok if you really don't like anyone hanging around that year .. but I liked some guys in there.   I'd be kinder to the Vereen selection. I had him pretty high on my board, and think he is very different from Woody or BJGE. I thought they would wait and snag someone closer to the third round like Kendall Hunter. But I had Vereen neck and neck with LeShoure and Ingram. I would have thought WR would be a bigger need, but Vereen is BB taking a shot at a feature back.  Vereen is 15 pounds heavier than Faulk or Woody and has much better top speed. At the same time, he is only 5 pounds lighter than BJGE and has much better moves. His work at Cal is much more promising than Ingram ... we at least got to see him have to fight through NFL size holes, whereas Ingram and LeShoure's highlight reels look like one horse races with 10 ft wide gates. BB's hope, which is apparent, is that BJGE becomes a valuable backup, and Woody becomes situtational. Vereen plays in all the 2TE sets and most single back, becoming (hopefully) a Marshall Faulk kind of contributor who can do everything.  That said, Dowling is a question mark and will be the cloud on this draft. There is immense  pressure for him to succeed and stay healthy . I understand (and have been a proponent that) you cannot have enough great CBs in modern Mungy era. But the list of players he needs to outplay (Cam Heyward, Mo Wilkerson, Jabal Sheard, Akeem Ayers, and Brooks Reed) is long and full of some good talent (though I would only have taken Reed there). He also puts pressure on Cunningham, Nink, Fletcher, and Moore. After the draft BB's words were "We have guys at OLB who are still developing that we like." If Dowling turns out like McCourty, then BB looks smart ... and (coincidentally) this defense looks a lot like the NY Jets' D, in that it's all big corners who are great cover guys and form tacklers. But he better be, or Cunningham better make leaps and bounds out there, because NE has a mediocre rush at best and haven't addressed it.  Left on the board? Well, the kid from your home state Sam Acho is still there. Greg Romeus .. but he isn't really a stander ... so not sure if NE is going to move on any of these kids.  Also didn't like the Ridley pick ... he is a gamble. He breaks tackles and runs forward, but that is all. I don't see him as more than a short yardage back and he is freak large like Peyton Hillis or Jamaal Lewis, where he can drag LBers around, so I don't understand it, especially when someone like Leonard Hankerson was on the board, who could have helped shore up  NE's incredibly weak perimter WR unit. 
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE] I like the drafting of both of the backs Ridley and Vereen they are different types of backs and will compliment Woody and BJGE nicely,I hope BB brings back Faulk too play SR. As a note woody runs a 4.38 forty I doubt Vereen is faster!!!!
     

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