Patriots moves making me think...

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Patriots moves making me think...

    You know I would not be suprised if they move Welker prior to the draft. Now that they have Lloyd, Welker is not as important a piece because the short slot type receiver position has Hernandes, Gronk, and now Gonzales to add to Edlemen. Ship him to NFC for a Second next year and a 3rd and 5th this year for example.

    Now as for other things that are making me think... I know the Pats like Hoyer and I actually heard Michael Lombardi on NFL Network say if he was to have gotten a GM job this off season he was prepared to go get Hoyer now before he hits free agency and you have to bid for him.  If I was the Pats I would trade him now. And with him tendered at a second I would take that or a third this year and a third next year.

    With the Pats front heavy in 2012 with two 1sts, two 2nds, and a third I would look to add to the pick selection and give you more flexibility to trade back and into 2013 even. I would do whatever it took to be able to do this w/o hurting my ability to use Both first rounders and at least one of the second round picks.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TheExaminer. Show TheExaminer's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Sure you want to move the NFL's leading receiver? Maybe, but whatever it is, it BETTER work!
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CaptnFoxboro. Show CaptnFoxboro's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

     As much as it pains me to admit it ...

    I agree BB might just have a Welker trade up his sleeve.

     The Anthony Gonzalez addition was curious.

     That said ,
     I don't believe that a Welker trade would happen until after the draft as BB would want to see if Gonzalez was healthy and a good fit first
     ( not to mention that the Pats might have their eyes on a rookie wr and might want to secure that b4 moving Welker )

     I personally hope a new contract is ironed out b4 the draft -

     Though the possibilty remains that it might actually expedite #83's exit out of Foxboro , as players with long term deals can be easier to trade .

    Ah...sweet conjecture .
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Gonzales' signing was currious to say the least and add to that Hernandes is more a slot WR then a TE in reality. Keeping Welker at 9.4 million as great as he has been (and I also feel a lot of that greatness is Brady enhanced) just does not make sense to me especially since it isn't the Patriots way to over spend for any position and a Slot WR even the best one in the NFL should never make 9 plus million a year.

    Hey I also want to get out in the open here cause I hear people talk money like it is their money all the time... I could care less if that is what the Patriots want to pay him Good For them and him I just make comments based on how I see the value of the player mesh with the team need and the position league wide.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from proftom2. Show proftom2's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I like the way you think.

    The team keeps chainging. There is only one ball. Tom is aging, I look for those two young backs we drafted last year to play a more signiifcant role and the slot may dwindling a bit. 

    Love Wes, but we've seen this this type of goings on before 


     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Skadude22. Show Skadude22's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I don't see them moving welker, but if they do, amendola for the 63rd overall pick is a move i would jump on.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mooney12. Show Mooney12's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Welker is great but edelman+branch+gonzalez(pls be healthy) can produce 1550 yds in 16 games. Call me crazy but I believe Underwood will be a good player with a year in the system.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from df5. Show df5's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    None of these moves will make any difference if Bill let's Anderson walk.

    He is not going to break the bank and the Pats need him.If Belichick employs his idiotic value system to Anderson, the defense will be even worse.

    This team can't get by with smoke and mirrors. Last year was a lucky run. Before that, we were exposed as a one and done team. You have to be able to play defense in the playoffs.

    Brandon Lloyd is nice. But if the defense doesn't improve it wont make a shred of difference. They certainly can't afford to get worse.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from theshinez. Show theshinez's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Look, lets not get hasty.  Do you remember the Mankins saga last year?  he was all but lost and BB found a way to make him happy and keep him.  This is Welker we're talking about.  He will be given a long term deal, or at least play on the Franchise tag.  He won't hold out and he won't be traded. 
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    ^ Look Mark, I know you were expecting some more, & some bigger bites for your services in the free agency waters this year, but COME'ON, Man...!?!  You yourself, HAVE to see that NFL Teams might be just a tad bit hesitant to just throw ya out that 5 year deal at 8 mil a season after gazing at your 6 year career stats of: 12 Sacks (Rookie), 5 Sacks, 1 Sack, 3.5 Sacks, 4 Sacks, and finally 10 Sacks.  Don'tcha see, that NFL Teams might be wondering how and why the vast majority of your production this year, came in the final half of the season prior to you becoming an Unrestricted Free Agent?  Should the fact that in only 1 out of your 6 years, you were actually able to hit the Total Tackle mark of 30, Only Once (with 31total solo and assisted tackles combined)?!?  And finally, Mark- WhatInTH does this have to do with any idea of a Wes Welker trade????
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    people were asking this question before free agency opened up.  If they can move Welker and get some help on defense (pass rush and secondary), it would be a good thing.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...



    Once again, the Pats cannot trade Welker until he is signed!  

    And once he's signed, the tag amount is guaranteed, so the Pats can trade him only to a team willing, not only to give up draft picks to the Pats, but also to pay the tag amount to Welker or negotiate a contract with Welker that Welker wants to sign.  Welker holds the cards once he's signed the tag.  

    The "tag and trade" scenario just isn't very realistic unless there's a team out there willing to give up draft picks for Welker and also sign him to a big contract.  In other words, a team that wants to pay even more for Welker than what most of you are saying makes sense for the Patriots to pay.  Is there a team out there that is going to put a higher value on Welker than the Pats will?  I doubt it.  Welker looks way too much like a guy who is as productive as he is in large part because Brady and Belichick know how to use him.  He's not Vincent Jackson, Brandon Marshall or even Brandon Lloyd.   


     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from timesedge. Show timesedge's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I don't think that these moves mean anything in relation to Welker's contract. BB always tries to get multiple fixes for a spot - this is why he got Gonzalez AND Lloyd. Same reason he grabbed Carter AND Anderson, Ridley AND Vereen, Gronk AND Hernandez...

    If all we can get for Welker would be a 2nd, a 3rd and a 5th there is no way that we'd trade him. To me he's worth more than that to the Pats. You don't just get rid of your #1 WR when he's been the model teammate on top of it.

    If you just get rid of Welker now you are saying to the rest of the team that model behavior and high level of performance won't be rewarded. Not a good example to make IMHO.

    Besides all of this - right now we have the potential for being the sickest offense of all time - even better than 2007. Getting rid of Welker would significantly hurt the potential of this.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from msteven. Show msteven's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I think the Patriots will keep Welker for one more year withthe franchise tag.  I think the Gonzalas signing was anticipation of Welker walking next year.  Give Gonzalas a year to prove himself before Welker leaves.  I am at the mindset that all the hits and injuries are going to catch up with Welker in a hurry.  I would not sign him long term.  My feeling on Anderson is that he is a Tully type of signing.  He had a good year last year but history tells a different story.  He does not set the edge well on the run.  He is not a 3 down player.  He was good in the end of the year but his stats say it was not the norm.  I also think Branch is going to have difficulty staying on this team.   I still feel that Chad will be with the team next year.  He is signed and willing to reduce his cap hit.  This would give the Patriots two outside the numbers WR's.  The biggest concern for me is the Safety position.  I do not see a solid safety in the draft and the free agent market is getting slim.  I think a veteran is needed to help the young backfield. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Why are people looking so heavily into the Gonzalez signing? Gonzalez has played for 10 games in the last 3 seasons. To think he is anything but a low risk gamble at this point is beyond ridiculous. The biggest reason not to think of Gonzalez as anything but depth is because BB would drastically increase the risk if he needs to count of Gonzalez for any kind of reps, and BB isn't about increasing risk. It's a nice signing if he can stay healthy but I highly doubt BB will put himself into a position where he relies on Gonzalez being healthy

    Also the thought that Edelman+Hern+Gonz giving you similar performance to Welker is also a bit silly. First off, the major player in that list is Hern. If Hern moves to slot you have to figure he's not going to drastically add catches and yrds over what he got last year. So, if you are going to think Hern moves inside to slot to replace Welker then you now have to replace Hern's production at the TE position (and Fells is a nice #3 TE but won't replace Hern's production). Edelman has a shot but he's no Welker by far and away. Gonz you can't count on due to recent 3 yr injury history.

    If you are really looking to replace Welker then you are talking about drafting a top end slot WR in the draft or drafting one of the best TE's in the draft so you don't take a hit moving Hern to slot
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    PatsEng~

    You know very well that I was fanatically on the NFL Players' sides during this past lockout.  Honestly, they actually had to FIGHT their way, in the greatest money making sport, to STILL come away in the end with a 49% share (which is still I believe, the LEAST % take for players of any of the other 3 major pro sports- see- pro-basketball divas trying to force a lockout because they were only currently just getting a 60% take...madness, with absolutely no pity or support from me).

    But in terms of The NE Patriots and The NFL's hard team salary cap?  I believe in ruthlessly cold business when it comes to the lone individual verses MY team.  Welker's got about 10 mil of the 120 million dollar cap...that's insane for the amount to be able to spend on those 52 other guys.  Welker's what...either 30 or 31 years old?  Welker plays a position at his 5 foot 9 a buck 80 something size, that he can and HAS and very OFTEN, gets crushed while doing.  You just HAVE to consider these things...  And once you take the personal out of it, ya end up remembering that Richard Seymour at around that same age, but coming off of something like 4 outta 5 injury riddled seasons of pretty cr#ppy production on NE at a HUGE 2nd contract price, verses Wes Welker's 4 outta 5 Seasons of constant and consistant and pro-bowl production--- And IF NE still acquired a 1st Rd Pick for the Richard Seymour of that time...then ya gotta at least entertain what ya might nab for the guy currently producing at the ALL-Pro level- yet who's 10 mil price tag and 30+ year old, 5 foot 9 frame is much more likely to get injured within his on-field job...leaving you with nuthin'.

    It's a market like any...buy low, sell high.  When you become too attached to something, and/or when ya try to ride the shares out and up for just a bit too long, You might just come away with incredibly less than you coulda had.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I'd hate to be Welker reading what fans think of his value to the team given what he has done since joining the Pats.  We ask for player loyalty to the team but don't seem to apply it to the fans.  Oh how fickle fans can be!!
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think...:
    [QUOTE]PatsEng~ You know very well that I was fanatically on the NFL Players' sides during this past lockout.  Honestly, they actually had to FIGHT their way, in the greatest money making sport, to STILL come away in the end with a 49% share (which is still I believe, the LEAST % take for players of any of the other 3 major pro sports- see- pro-basketball divas trying to force a lockout because they were only currently just getting a 60% take...madness, with absolutely no pity or support from me). But in terms of The NE Patriots and The NFL's hard team salary cap?  I believe in ruthlessly cold business when it comes to the lone individual verses MY team.  Welker's got about 10 mil of the 120 million dollar cap...that's insane for the amount to be able to spend on those 52 other guys.  Welker's what...either 30 or 31 years old?  Welker plays a position at his 5 foot 9 a buck 80 something size, that he can and HAS and very OFTEN, gets crushed while doing.  You just HAVE to consider these things...  And once you take the personal out of it, ya end up remembering that Richard Seymour at around that same age, but coming off of something like 4 outta 5 injury riddled seasons of pretty cr#ppy production on NE at a HUGE 2nd contract price, verses Wes Welker's 4 outta 5 Seasons of constant and consistant and pro-bowl production--- And IF NE still acquired a 1st Rd Pick for the Richard Seymour of that time...then ya gotta at least entertain what ya might nab for the guy currently producing at the ALL-Pro level- yet who's 10 mil price tag and 30+ year old, 5 foot 9 frame is much more likely to get injured within his on-field job...leaving you with nuthin'. It's a market like any...buy low, sell high.  When you become too attached to something, and/or when ya try to ride the shares out and up for just a bit too long, You might just come away with incredibly less than you coulda had.
    Posted by LazarusintheSanatorium[/QUOTE]

    Laz value lies in what they provide to the team not in the amount they get paid relative to the other players on the team.

    For instance, even though there are 52 other players on the team not everyone is equal. Obviously Brady should get paid more, same with Wilfork, and same with Mayo, etc. In the end though you have to pick and chose who means what to the team as a whole. You are right I don't think Welker means 10mil to the team long term but if the Pats were willing to toss 10mil at him for 1 year of production, knowing that he might not be able to be extended long term then they must see the value he presents in the short term is worth what he currently provides.

    Another question to ask is if they do save the 10mil by trading him what else will the use the money on? Is that 10mil more valuable then say letting Ocho go after June 1st (saving 3mil this year), Light (5mil), Brace (.75mil), and Barrett (1mil)? That should be the question asked. If you need the 10mil to spend on other players to upgrade other positions is Welker more valuable to the team then the 4 players above. With the exception of Light you would say yes to all. Given they have Solder, Vollmer, and Cannon in the T position you can make a vary reasonable argument that Light isn't as important as Welker either. So, if the cash is why you would get rid of Welker then that's pretty poor reasoning when you have alternatives that would less affect the team.

    Now, if you are talking that someone gives you a deal you can't refuse for a trade then lets look at that. You currently have picks #27 and #31 so realistically you can get anyone you want that will fall in the 20+ pick range with little effort, so you are really discussing trading Welker for a top 20 pick in order to get the value back compared to what you can already afford and would be worth losing your #1 WR over. Looking at that perspective the first question asked will be what teams would give up a top 20 pick to get Welker (as you said he is entering his 30's). The second question is for whom? There as some front 7 help but none that scream top 20 talent, and none that you might not be able to move up into the 20's and get someone with similar talent level. Of course you also have Claiborne and Blackmon but both might go in the top 7 picks and I don't think you are getting a top 10 pick for Welker, do you? So if you are looking at picks 10-20 who do you think would be there that you would want over anyone in the 20-31 range that you are willing to give up Welker (I know long term value the pick might be a better shot but picks are still gambles while Welkers a known). The other thing you have to factor is that this is a team that was 2mins from winning a SB. A draft picks takes time to work into the system. You have already upgraded 3 positions from last year so would it be beneficial to take away a big piece. It's like going into a game of chess where you lost to an opponent by a couple of moves then the next game you replace your rook with a extra bishop.

    Given Brady's limited window and that we already have a championship team I would not want to change out one of the most consistent and productive WR's in the market for an unknown under fear he might leave without compensation
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from JayShizzle45. Show JayShizzle45's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    It would not hurt. With LLoyd coming in, you can be sure, Joshy will implement him and Brady will want to use his new toy. Gronk is capable of big numbers as well as Hernandez. Moving Wes would only make Brady spread the ball more. With 2 and 3 TE sets, the slot position is almost Null here. Sure in spread formations you need one, but not the best. With Gonzy and Edleman and also Hernandez being able to play there , you can flank Lloyd and Ocho outside and not miss a beat.

    One thing is,. there is only one ball like someone said. If you factor in them running just a bit more and the addition of Lloyd as well as more reps for the young backs, we could easily replace Wes' production, its just a matter of if Brady is ready to move on.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think...:
    [QUOTE]Why are people looking so heavily into the Gonzalez signing? Gonzalez has played for 10 games in the last 3 seasons. To think he is anything but a low risk gamble at this point is beyond ridiculous. The biggest reason not to think of Gonzalez as anything but depth is because BB would drastically increase the risk if he needs to count of Gonzalez for any kind of reps, and BB isn't about increasing risk. It's a nice signing if he can stay healthy but I highly doubt BB will put himself into a position where he relies on Gonzalez being healthy Also the thought that Edelman+Hern+Gonz giving you similar performance to Welker is also a bit silly. First off, the major player in that list is Hern. If Hern moves to slot you have to figure he's not going to drastically add catches and yrds over what he got last year. So, if you are going to think Hern moves inside to slot to replace Welker then you now have to replace Hern's production at the TE position (and Fells is a nice #3 TE but won't replace Hern's production). Edelman has a shot but he's no Welker by far and away. Gonz you can't count on due to recent 3 yr injury history. If you are really looking to replace Welker then you are talking about drafting a top end slot WR in the draft or drafting one of the best TE's in the draft so you don't take a hit moving Hern to slot
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Exactly Eng . . . plus I don't think any team is going to give the Pats three higher-round draft picks for Welker, plus pay him what they'll need to pay him to sign him.  If they were going to use up that much in picks and cap space, they'd get someone like Wallace instead!  


    ________


    One addition to this.  I think Welker has tremendous value to the Pats now, so I don't see them wanting to get rid of him.  I suspect they're willing to keep him at the franchise tag price for one year if need be.  At the same time that Welker has tremendous value to the Pats, I don't think his general value across the league is as high as some think.  He's a guy who is going to be seen as a "system" success.  That doesn't mean he wouldn't be good on other teams--but he's probably not anything close to a 120 reception player on a team with a QB who isn't Brady and that doesn't rely so heavily on as few receivers as the Pats did last year.  A big part of Welker's success is due to the fact that there were so few other options for Brady to throw to.  Basically, the Pats threw to four guys last year.  Nearly their whole offense went through Welker, Gronk, Hernandez, and Branch!  Welker's great season was in part due to his skills--but also in very large part due to the lack of other options on the team and also to Brady's particular skills.  My feeling is most teams will look at Welker as a good, but not great, receiver who has great numbers primarily because of the team he's on now. Most will discount Welker's accomplishments because they know that the kind of production he had last year in New England was in large part because of the New England QB and system and not because Welker is some kind of unstopple, dominant receiver.  

    Remember, in Miami, Welker appeared in 46 games over three seasons, with just three starts and a total over those three seasons of 96 receptions and 1,121 yards. If I'm not mistaken, he didn't get used much as a receiver in the first season (he was a return man), but even so, 96 receptions over two seasons isn't a bad total, but it's not top of the league kind of stats. 


     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from DaBlade. Show DaBlade's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    Not saying it will happen just looking at how this team opperates and Welker no matter how good he is past present or future, is NOT WORTH 9.4 million a year. I love the guy but a slot wr decent ones can be had for a couple million a year and I predict they would be good enough with the way this offense is put together and so therefore if Welker will not lower his hit and take 3 years or less I would move on from him. Thanks for everything you have done but if you get sentimental you end up looking like the Cowboys did a few years ago with relics on their farewel tour.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from timesedge. Show timesedge's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    I would just want to reiterate.... The people on this board want to replace the consistently highest performing reciever who's been a MODEL patriot for the last 4 years with a converted TE, a guy who did well 2 years ago and has a history of being a bit of a prima donna, and an injury prone colt who may have upside but has only shown flashes over his 4 or so years in the league... And on top of it get little to nothing for him...

    I'm very glad that BB is our GM.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think...:
    [QUOTE]Not saying it will happen just looking at how this team opperates and Welker no matter how good he is past present or future, is NOT WORTH 9.4 million a year. I love the guy but a slot wr decent ones can be had for a couple million a year and I predict they would be good enough with the way this offense is put together and so therefore if Welker will not lower his hit and take 3 years or less I would move on from him. Thanks for everything you have done but if you get sentimental you end up looking like the Cowboys did a few years ago with relics on their farewel tour.
    Posted by DaBlade[/QUOTE]

    If that is true then why bother extending him the tag in the first place? We won't get fair market value because as you put it "a slot wr decent ones can be had for a couple million a year" so who would spend the kind of cash needed to sign him to an extension (after he signs and trades). Additionally with Wallace presumably asking for what Welker wants who would trade a first for Welker when they can do the same for Wallace?

    So all in all you might be looking at a Marshall or less type of deal. Is Welker more valuable to the team then a pair of 3rd rounders? Do we not have the cap space to afford the tag for Welker right now?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from natesubs. Show natesubs's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think...:
    [QUOTE]I'd hate to be Welker reading what fans think of his value to the team given what he has done since joining the Pats.  We ask for player loyalty to the team but don't seem to apply it to the fans.  Oh how fickle fans can be!!
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]

    we don't really root for the players, we root for the jerseys.  they just happen to have players we like in them!
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Patriots moves making me think...

    In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think...:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Patriots moves making me think... : we don't really root for the players, we root for the jerseys.  they just happen to have players we like in them!
    Posted by natesubs[/QUOTE]
    and...   if you want to extend the thought..  players may not care less about what fans think about their needs to get paid etc as it is not their a*s (the fan) on the field who could lose their entire career in a second.  When all is said and done, it is a business and personal needs trump the general needs of the fan base, even the team.
     

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