Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Get younger with younger people
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    I want to be more thorough in a response so I hope you don't mind hearing from me twice.  The first post was a quick blurb before I headed out the door.  As you might have guessed my response are highlighted.
    In Response to Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    [QUOTE]     Sorry if this depresses you, but, after an extremely disappointing 2009 season, one has to wonder whether the Patriots have become a team caught between a quest to reload, or a plan to rebuild? When scanning the Patriots' roster, the team looks like a giant piece of swiss cheese, with holes everywhere:
    I.) Coaching: The Pats still have the best head coach in the game in BB. Yet, few would argue that 2009 was one of his better years. The Pats were repeatedly out-coached in the second half of games, and their play calling, both on offense and defense, seemed to lack imagination, and were predicable. Could it be that BB is overloading himself with responsibilities? Has he ever had a weaker set of assistants? The Patriots took a step to remedy this situation by removing their ineffective DC, Dean Pees. But, this was a case of addition by subtraction. Why wasn't a veteran coordinator brought in?
    It seems Bill likes to build from within but it would be nice to see a fresh face every now and then.  The play calling to me seemed to be more about personnel than anything else.  But it does hurt when you are constantly raided by other teams.  
    II.) Personnel Department: The teams' losses in this area have been underrated. Though some say that the Patriots have drafted terribly since 2004, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. In 2005 and 2007, I thought that the Patriots drafted very well...when including the trades made using draft choices. But, the 2006, 2008 and 2009 drafts, could have, and should have, been better. Relatively high draft choices such as Chad Jackson, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, Kevin O'Connell, and David Thomas have, for whatever reason, not panned out.
    We've been raided like a big dog here too.  It's a little bit early to throw Chung under the bus isn't it?  Brace I'm worried about and I guess you can say Crable is a bust since he can't get on the field.
    III.) Special Teams: The Pats weekly lost field position battles with opposing teams in 2009. This was particularly damaging on the road. The main culprits? A weak punter, no effective kickoff returner, and, save for Wes Welker, who likely won't be available for most of 2010, no effective punt returner.
    Very true.  But we can pick up a punter and Tate was a returner in college.  Perhaps the draft might produce something.  Regardless, the return will be a question mark going into the season. 
    IV.) Offense:       
    1.) QB:  Tom Brady turns 33. Do you-all feel comfortable with Brian Hoyer being groomed as the Pats' QB of the future?     
    It's too early to talk about a replacement for Brady.  One would have to ride the pine for 4,5,6+ years?  No question it will need addressing in a couple of years but not now.
    2.) RB: Laurence Maroney has disappointed...the remaining Pats' RBs of note are 34 years old.      
    They need to grab a RB this draft for sure.  One next year as well.  I think of Faulk's replacement when I see Maroney out there.  Faulk had a hard time getting going too. 
    3.) TE:  The position is currently vacant.
    We have Crumpler and we need to draft one or two.  But yeah, I see nothing but a monkey slapping the panic button here.  This isn't good. 
    4.) OL: OTs Matt Light and Nick Kaczur are not dependable protectors of a 33 year old pocket passer. Steve Neal is 33 years old, and rarely healthy. Center Dan Koppen doesn't seem to be the same player since his shoulder injury. Logan Mankins is displeased with his contract situation.       
    Light isn't that bad.  It's just when it's with the other debacles in the line it's compounded.  However, what happens after this year?  Mankins will return.  Same ol', same ol' when it comes to contracts. Koppen needs to be replaced.  The 3-4 is too much for him.  We need the bigger center to got up against the NTs.  Neal does get hurt but he's good when he's in there.  Connolly is a good backup and future starter here.  Vollmer is the RT.
    5.) WR : Randy Moss turns 33. Opposite him, there is no one of note. All-World slot receiver Wes Welker will likely miss half of the 2010 season...and may never be the same lightening quick player that he once was.  
    This is a house of cards.  No FAs of note.  Look out below!
    V.) Defense:      
    1.) DL : Once the strength of this team...but now in tatters. NT Vince Wilfolk is aboard, but DE Ty Warren has been doing a Steven Neal imitation of late. Richard Seymour is long gone...and the Pats will have to wait until 2011 to recoup anything from his absence. Dependable reserve Jarvis Green is gone. The Pats need to find a DE to replace Seymour.     
    Plenty of DEs in this draft.  One of my key spots to fill with the top four picks.
    2.) ILB : Though no Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis, Jerod Mayo is a very good player, when healthy. Gary Guyton has made strides, but seems better cast as a quality reserve, or OLB. There is no depth .      
    I can see the concern here.  Will McKenzie and Crable be there?  OLB is another one of my top four picks.
    3.) OLB : Could have had Clay Mathews...but that's another story. Their best player, and best (sole?) pass-rusher at this position is veteran Tully Banta-Cain. Loads of help needed here .      
    I've already posted on this.
    4.) Secondary: Drafting mistakes at CB, and some poor free agency pick-ups, have forced the Pats to use an inordinate amount of their resources, including cap space and draft picks, on the secondary. The result? Other positions of need, such as OLB, have been neglected. That said, the Patriots appear to be fairly set here.      
    Can't argue much here.  But I would like to see the pash rush taken care of before I make a judgement on it.  It can make a huge difference.
    The bottom line is...that the Patriots need to have a monster draft, and hope that players such as Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Shawn Crable, finally step up in 2010.
    There is absolutly no doubt that the Pats have to score big in this years draft and next years.  If they want back on top they will have to be on top of their game.
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Tex - too much to read, but read a little.  1.  Brady is good enough to perform even with just an ok Oline.  I know this because Brady performed well last year and Manning has done it the last 2 years and the colts are still searching for a combination that will really work.

    RESPONSE: Spare me...Dog(gg). Manning was hardly touched last season, while Brady got killed.

    ResponseResponse: - with all due respect Tex the pats were sacked 3rd fewest times last year and second fewest per pass attempt.  To suggest that Brady got killed (he was sacked 16 times to Manning's 10) is a bit far fetched.  


     
      3.  IMO the dominance that the pats demonstrated in the first half of the decade was all about the defense which no longer exists.

    RESPONSE: Unlike the Colts, the Pats had balance on both sides of the ball. They were better than the Colts...who were a "soft" dome team. The Indy teams since 2006 are much better defensively...and tougher.

    ResponseResponse - Well you are right that the colts had no defense and certainly the pats offense was good enough, so I'll meet you half way here.  I still believe the pats dominant D was their strength.  And I agree their great defensive players got old without having someone waiting in the wings to fill the spots effectively.

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    guys.... ><> look a fish!
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    ResponseResponse: - with all due respect Tex the pats were sacked 3rd fewest times last year and second fewest per pass attempt.  To suggest that Brady got killed (he was sacked 16 times to Manning's 10) is a bit far fetched. 

    RESPONSE: Come on, Dog(gg)! You follow football enough to know that sack stats don't tell the whole story. Brady was getting hit...though not sacked, far too often. Did boy Peyton have to play the season with a sore shoulder, and broken ribs? Brady did. 

    TP - A bit feisty aren't you?  I am aware that sacks don't tell the whole story, but in the absence of a stat for QB pressures or QB hits (attributable to the QB and not the hitter), the sack number is the best assessment I have.  Maybe you have access to the stats that I mention that can better prove your point, but otherwise your assertion that Brady got killed doesn't jibe with the stats available. 

    Additionally, I give both Brady and Manning the credit they deserve for having the skill to avoid sacks that other QB's can't.  And thus relative to this, if they can avoid the sack, then I also think they are aware and skilled enough to avoid the hit when they can.  As for Brady's broken ribs, was this ever confirmed - maybe it was. 


    Here is what Brady said about the ribs:  

    Brady was asked on Monday morning during an interview on Boston sports radio station WEEI if he could confirm the injuries. While kicking off his answer with a joke ("What's the injury report say?"), he did address the issue. "I'm feeling really good," Brady said. "Everyone breaks bones over the course of the year. I'm feeling pretty good. It's the best I've felt in a while." 


    Was that a confirmation or denial?

    Here's what Belichick said regarding Charlie Casserly's report that Brady played with broken ribs: 
    “Who’s been wrong more than Charley Casserly since he left the Redskins? His percentage is like a meteorologist,” Belichick said. “He has no relationship to this team. I’d say less than zero. Based on what? He’s never at a practice, never at a game...

    Further media reports don't seem to agree on when Brady's ribs were broken, if they were at all.  Some have it at the end of the season, some have it during preseason. 

    As for the shoulder, I don't know what to believe.  He's been on the injury report for it for years without surgery.  But I digress:

    My point is I think you are overstating how much Brady got killed because of his o-line, and sometimes when QB's do get killed it can be as much their fault as the o-line.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Looking at the holes the Patriots have to fill the draft picks available to them and the other teams that will be in the mix particularly in the AFC I think there is reason to think 10-6 or better is where the Patriots will be which means they are a wild card team at worst. That is fine in my book if they make the right choices they are going to be in the mix of superbowl championships for the next 6 years maybe beyond depending on how successful we are in moving on from Brady when he is done.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
         Sorry if this depresses you, but, after an extremely disappointing 2009 season, one has to wonder whether the Patriots have become a team caught between a quest to reload, or a plan to rebuild? When scanning the Patriots' roster, the team looks like a giant piece of swiss cheese, with holes everywhere: I.) Coaching: The Pats still have the best head coach in the game in BB. Yet, few would argue that 2009 was one of his better years. The Pats were repeatedly out-coached in the second half of games, and their play calling, both on offense and defense, seemed to lack imagination, and were predicable. Could it be that BB is overloading himself with responsibilities? Has he ever had a weaker set of assistants? The Patriots took a step to remedy this situation by removing their ineffective DC, Dean Pees. But, this was a case of addition by subtraction. Why wasn't a veteran coordinator brought in?   II.) Personnel Department: The teams' losses in this area have been underrated. Though some say that the Patriots have drafted terribly since 2004, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. In 2005 and 2007, I thought that the Patriots drafted very well...when including the trades made using draft choices. But, the 2006, 2008 and 2009 drafts, could have, and should have, been better. Relatively high draft choices such as Chad Jackson, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, Kevin O'Connell, and David Thomas have, for whatever reason, not panned out. III.) Special Teams: The Pats weekly lost field position battles with opposing teams in 2009. This was particularly damaging on the road. The main culprits? A weak punter, no effective kickoff returner, and, save for Wes Welker, who likely won't be available for most of 2010, no effective punt returner. IV.) Offense:        1.) QB:  Tom Brady turns 33. Do you-all feel comfortable with Brian Hoyer being groomed as the Pats' QB of the future?      2.) RB: Laurence Maroney has disappointed...the remaining Pats' RBs of note are 34 years old.       3.) TE:  The position is currently vacant.      4.) OL: OTs Matt Light and Nick Kaczur are not dependable protectors of a 33 year old pocket passer. Steve Neal is 33 years old, and rarely healthy. Center Dan Koppen doesn't seem to be the same player since his shoulder injury. Logan Mankins is displeased with his contract situation.        5.) WR : Randy Moss turns 33. Opposite him, there is no one of note. All-World slot receiver Wes Welker will likely miss half of the 2010 season...and may never be the same lightening quick player that he once was.   V.) Defense:       1.) DL : Once the strength of this team...but now in tatters. NT Vince Wilfolk is aboard, but DE Ty Warren has been doing a Steven Neal imitation of late. Richard Seymour is long gone...and the Pats will have to wait until 2011 to recoup anything from his absence. Dependable reserve Jarvis Green is gone. The Pats need to find a DE to replace Seymour.      2.) ILB : Though no Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis, Jerod Mayo is a very good player, when healthy. Gary Guyton has made strides, but seems better cast as a quality reserve, or OLB. There is no depth .       3.) OLB : Could have had Clay Mathews...but that's another story. Their best player, and best (sole?) pass-rusher at this position is veteran Tully Banta-Cain. Loads of help needed here .       4.) Secondary: Drafting mistakes at CB, and some poor free agency pick-ups, have forced the Pats to use an inordinate amount of their resources, including cap space and draft picks, on the secondary. The result? Other positions of need, such as OLB, have been neglected. That said, the Patriots appear to be fairly set here.       The bottom line is...that the Patriots need to have a monster draft, and hope that players such as Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Shawn Crable, finally step up in 2010.      Here are some interesting articles on the Pats reloading/rebuilding process for 2010: http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/2/17/1314241/new-england-patriots-links-2-17-10 , and  http://blog.pfwonline.com/?p=2541 .       Here is also an excellent article on the Philadelphia Eagles, who appear to be in similar straights as the Patriots: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20100406_Rich_Hofmann__Why_this_really_isn_t_rebuilding_for_Eagles.html .      Thoughts?              
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Exactly correct, texas, it does depress me. But, overall, I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are. I'm not sure what the difference would be betwen reloading and rebuilding but, yes, the Pats have holes to fill.

    What NFL team doesn't?

    I think you're underrating our Oline big time. They're not the best but neither are they the worst;

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/234176-2009-offensive-line-rankings

    That report doesn't include the emergence of volmer. replacing kazur will be a big upgrade in itself. The pats traditionally like the later picks for restocking the Oline. We have plenty of them this year and I'me guessing we'll find a stud or two there this year. 

    I agree on play calling and assistants. Way below par. Dumping Pees is a start but I keep wondering why BB keeps leaving assistant and co-ordinator jobs either unfilled or filled by rookies. Its nice to promote from within but I was never comfortable having a 20-something kid as OC. 

    Our drafts could have been better over the past few years but, again, what team can look back at the past 3-4 years' drafts,  with the benefit of hindsight, and feel that they made all the right moves? Sure the Pats have room for improvement but it could have been much worse, too.

    I completely agree on our RB situation. We need young blood ASAP at the very least. I'd like to see us get a actual feature back in round 1-2, instead or combing the waiver wire for other teams' has-beens. Come ON! You're not going to win anything in the NFL with a stable of 34 YO RBs, most of whom are injured at more often that not all season.

    D-line and OLB are our primary weaknesses now, as we all know. IMO opinion, this draft determines whether we regain our position as an elite team or fall back into  obscurity.

    If we come away with an above average DE, (there are plenty out there) a starting quality OLB/pass rusher (like graham or kindle), a stud TE and a stud RB, we're back in business. If our IR list finally contributes, that's just found money. I believe we'll mine the lower rounds for CB and Oline help. 

    With our 2 first rounders next year, we're in pretty good shape for the future.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Tex,

    I think almost all NFL fans in every city think thier Offensive Line gives up too many sacks and hits on their QBs.  Same in N.E. Do you have any emperical evidence the the Pats' OL gave up a comparatively high amount of sacks and hits on Brady last year or are you just talking out of your a**?  (My guess is you don't have any stats to back up your analysis).

    No need to waste a 1st round pick on a OL as the hardest player to find is a LT and I think they have one in SeaBass.  Put Vollimer at LT and move Light to RT for 2010.  If Light refuses to move, they can cut him. But Light still was better than about half the other LTs in the league last year and should be able to fill in nicely at RT for the last year of his contract.  Move Kaczur to RG to compete fof a spot. If he doesn't look comfortable at guard, cut him and eat the rest of his contract in this non-cap season. Draft a OL in the 2nd round to transition him in for a starting position in 2011.

    Use the #22 for a pass rushing OLB or DE.  This is the hardest skill to find for someone that can play in the 3-4 system BB employs and they need to find one early in the draft.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    The only teams that rebuild are the ones that can't draft.  The Pats were 5-11 the year before they won their 1st superbowl.  So I don't buy into any of this rebuilding crap.  They got very lucky with Brady in the 6th thanks to the late Dick Rehbein.  No matter which way you cut it, the Pats have drafted poorly the last few seasons.  Their offseason FA moves have been pretty pathetic.  This is why the Pats are in the situation they are in.  Brady can keep them competitive, but only for so long.  If the Pats don't get their s*** together in the personnel and offensive coaching department, then expect a very steady decline.  I'm a Pats fan, but I'm not just going to blindly approve of everything they do as genius or the best move possible.  So far this season is proving to be more of the same, not addressing holes with quality FA, only hasbeens nobody really wants.
    Posted by BBRULES23


    Amen brother!!! The Pats get caught up in picking up older cheaper
    fa's (deltha o'neal, joey gallaway, alex smith etc.) who they end up
    cutting anyways. With the money we wasted on some of these players
    could have been used to pick up better fa's. Might have had 2 spend a lil more
    cash but at least they would still be contributing.
     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    They should be drafting to reload...

    DB's are solid, two DL are excellent other vets are adequate as is, all they lack for RB is a bruiser. 

    They get a pass rush; a speedy receiver opposite Moss who can be groomed to be the #1 in 2009; a large RB who can get 3 yds at a crack to run off the clock; and draft a decent receing TE (to go with the best blocking TE since Graham), draft value OLs and they contend vs anyone. 

    Basically two DT/OLBs for the pass rush DL.... Lot's out there.  The TE should be very easy....there are a lot out there.  Lots of bigger RB's too. This draft is almost perfect for their needs.

    One wildcard to watch...McCluster can be a Sproles type and just might be around well into rd 2. One big trade possibility:  Marshall.... Other WR to watch Benn

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    the draft will help the team in the future,but its not gonna take them over the top this year,or solve there holes on the roster this year.no way you can tell who will make an impact right away,or who will be busts.yes its great in building for the future,but the team needs key players now.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    I disagree with that. This years draft is like an extended first round. The players more developed than a typical draft. OLB/DE, a receiving TE and RB should constribute imediately.  Agreed WR and interior LBs would take a while.  The DBs have already been integrated or at least initiated.  
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    TP - I'll say this again - Sometimes hits and sacks are the QB's fault.  Now this may actually say something positive about Brady so don't take it wrong.  He may stand in or step into the pocket in order to make sure he gets his pass off and take a hit that others might not.  While doing so, the O-line may have kept the d off of him for an acceptable amount of time. 

    Per this link from another post, it shows (at least by this site's ranking) that, in fact, the pats o-lineman rank high - definitely higher than the colts.

    http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=G&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Check the site again, Tex.  You can click on Tackles, Centers or Guards.
    In addition to Mankins and Neal, Vollimer did very well and Koppen was positive.  Light was down (finishing 33rd for Tackles) but he graded out very well in 2007 and 2008 - finishing 10th and 3rd overall.

    Total hits is also a function of total pass attempts as most of the hits leaders are also leaders in pass attempts.  Here's an overall ranking of offensive lines by Cold Hard Football Facts for 2009:
     
    Final 2009 Offensive Hog Index
     Team YPA NPP% 3down% #Avg 
    1New Orleans4.5375.84344.6765.3
    2Tennessee5.1815.92441.59125.7
    3Dallas4.8227.36940.59148.3
    4tJacksonville4.5559.591945.1349.3
    4tMiami4.38109.151648.9829.3
    6tBaltimore4.7249.141541.591110.0
    6tNew England4.12215.08143.69810.0
    8Indianapolis3.54305.21249.22111.0
    9Minnesota4.11226.97744.84511.3
    10Green Bay4.27149.622047.03312.3
    11Atlanta4.16187.371042.131012.7
    12N.Y. Giants4.15198.011242.86913.3
    13San Diego3.33326.61544.39714.7
    14Carolina4.76310.642437.271915.3
    15Denver4.17167.941136.282216.3

    NE finished 6th overall.  Not the best but far from the bottom of the pile.  NE ranked only 18th in Defensive Hog Index.  This is were he focus should be in the draft room.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    I agree on Kazur, but then again they have Seabass who should start.  Light has issues against speedier types, but isn't close to the issue Kazur has been.  I'd like to see of they could switch Light to RT, at least see how it goes in camp.

    I really don't think Mankins is a problem.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    The tackles are listed, and the pats tackles are even better than the guards compared to the colts.  The pats tackles are ranked 5, 28, 33 (they include Vollmer).  Indy's are 27, and 66.

    Can't fault the line for everything.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    WHAT A BUNCH OF CLOWNS!

    Have any of you checked out the odds for the 2011 Superbowl?

    Either you guys are brilliant NFL minds...Or the wiseguys in Vegas must be clueless!
     
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