Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Get younger with younger people
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    I want to be more thorough in a response so I hope you don't mind hearing from me twice.  The first post was a quick blurb before I headed out the door.  As you might have guessed my response are highlighted.
    In Response to Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    [QUOTE]     Sorry if this depresses you, but, after an extremely disappointing 2009 season, one has to wonder whether the Patriots have become a team caught between a quest to reload, or a plan to rebuild? When scanning the Patriots' roster, the team looks like a giant piece of swiss cheese, with holes everywhere:
    I.) Coaching: The Pats still have the best head coach in the game in BB. Yet, few would argue that 2009 was one of his better years. The Pats were repeatedly out-coached in the second half of games, and their play calling, both on offense and defense, seemed to lack imagination, and were predicable. Could it be that BB is overloading himself with responsibilities? Has he ever had a weaker set of assistants? The Patriots took a step to remedy this situation by removing their ineffective DC, Dean Pees. But, this was a case of addition by subtraction. Why wasn't a veteran coordinator brought in?
    It seems Bill likes to build from within but it would be nice to see a fresh face every now and then.  The play calling to me seemed to be more about personnel than anything else.  But it does hurt when you are constantly raided by other teams.  
    II.) Personnel Department: The teams' losses in this area have been underrated. Though some say that the Patriots have drafted terribly since 2004, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. In 2005 and 2007, I thought that the Patriots drafted very well...when including the trades made using draft choices. But, the 2006, 2008 and 2009 drafts, could have, and should have, been better. Relatively high draft choices such as Chad Jackson, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, Kevin O'Connell, and David Thomas have, for whatever reason, not panned out.
    We've been raided like a big dog here too.  It's a little bit early to throw Chung under the bus isn't it?  Brace I'm worried about and I guess you can say Crable is a bust since he can't get on the field.
    III.) Special Teams: The Pats weekly lost field position battles with opposing teams in 2009. This was particularly damaging on the road. The main culprits? A weak punter, no effective kickoff returner, and, save for Wes Welker, who likely won't be available for most of 2010, no effective punt returner.
    Very true.  But we can pick up a punter and Tate was a returner in college.  Perhaps the draft might produce something.  Regardless, the return will be a question mark going into the season. 
    IV.) Offense:       
    1.) QB:  Tom Brady turns 33. Do you-all feel comfortable with Brian Hoyer being groomed as the Pats' QB of the future?     
    It's too early to talk about a replacement for Brady.  One would have to ride the pine for 4,5,6+ years?  No question it will need addressing in a couple of years but not now.
    2.) RB: Laurence Maroney has disappointed...the remaining Pats' RBs of note are 34 years old.      
    They need to grab a RB this draft for sure.  One next year as well.  I think of Faulk's replacement when I see Maroney out there.  Faulk had a hard time getting going too. 
    3.) TE:  The position is currently vacant.
    We have Crumpler and we need to draft one or two.  But yeah, I see nothing but a monkey slapping the panic button here.  This isn't good. 
    4.) OL: OTs Matt Light and Nick Kaczur are not dependable protectors of a 33 year old pocket passer. Steve Neal is 33 years old, and rarely healthy. Center Dan Koppen doesn't seem to be the same player since his shoulder injury. Logan Mankins is displeased with his contract situation.       
    Light isn't that bad.  It's just when it's with the other debacles in the line it's compounded.  However, what happens after this year?  Mankins will return.  Same ol', same ol' when it comes to contracts. Koppen needs to be replaced.  The 3-4 is too much for him.  We need the bigger center to got up against the NTs.  Neal does get hurt but he's good when he's in there.  Connolly is a good backup and future starter here.  Vollmer is the RT.
    5.) WR : Randy Moss turns 33. Opposite him, there is no one of note. All-World slot receiver Wes Welker will likely miss half of the 2010 season...and may never be the same lightening quick player that he once was.  
    This is a house of cards.  No FAs of note.  Look out below!
    V.) Defense:      
    1.) DL : Once the strength of this team...but now in tatters. NT Vince Wilfolk is aboard, but DE Ty Warren has been doing a Steven Neal imitation of late. Richard Seymour is long gone...and the Pats will have to wait until 2011 to recoup anything from his absence. Dependable reserve Jarvis Green is gone. The Pats need to find a DE to replace Seymour.     
    Plenty of DEs in this draft.  One of my key spots to fill with the top four picks.
    2.) ILB : Though no Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis, Jerod Mayo is a very good player, when healthy. Gary Guyton has made strides, but seems better cast as a quality reserve, or OLB. There is no depth .      
    I can see the concern here.  Will McKenzie and Crable be there?  OLB is another one of my top four picks.
    3.) OLB : Could have had Clay Mathews...but that's another story. Their best player, and best (sole?) pass-rusher at this position is veteran Tully Banta-Cain. Loads of help needed here .      
    I've already posted on this.
    4.) Secondary: Drafting mistakes at CB, and some poor free agency pick-ups, have forced the Pats to use an inordinate amount of their resources, including cap space and draft picks, on the secondary. The result? Other positions of need, such as OLB, have been neglected. That said, the Patriots appear to be fairly set here.      
    Can't argue much here.  But I would like to see the pash rush taken care of before I make a judgement on it.  It can make a huge difference.
    The bottom line is...that the Patriots need to have a monster draft, and hope that players such as Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Shawn Crable, finally step up in 2010.
    There is absolutly no doubt that the Pats have to score big in this years draft and next years.  If they want back on top they will have to be on top of their game.
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

         gary:

         We appear to be, for the most part, on the same page. In response:

         1.) Coaching and Personnel: Sure the Pats have been raided...and it certainly has taken it's toll. After tepid drafts at best in 3 of the last 4 years, have the Pats made any changes in the personnel department? None that I've heard of. As for the coaching, the Pats were outplayed and out-coached in the second half of far too many games in 2009. Getting rid of Dean Pees was a step in the right direction. But, they added nobody.
     
         2.) QB: The Pats can't afford to wait several years down the road, to find an adequate replacement for Tom Brady. What if the unthinkable occurs, and Tom gets hurt again? Does Brian Hoyer have what it takes to be a starting NFL QB? If not, the Pats better start looking for, and grooming a successor...NOW.

         3.) Punting and the return game are very underrated aspects of play. Having to go an extra 20 yards per possession to hit pay-dirt, or having to constantly defend a short field, is huge. The Pats must drastically improve in these areas. 

         4.) OL: I don't care who the RBs are...if the OL is not opening holes, a Jim Brown clone would not be successful. Correspondingly, if Tom Brady is not given time to throw, it doesn't matter how good his receivers are. The Pats must upgrade the OL.

         5.) DL: The Pats have a huge hole at DE...that was exploited repeatedly by the Baltimore Ravens in that painful playoff loss.

         6.) OLB: Though the Pats need to find a replacement for Richard Seymour, they've been looking to replace the long departed Willie McGinest for years. 

         *The bottom line is, for the Pats to regain their post as a serious SB contender, they have a ton of holes to fill...and a ton of work to do.
       
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Tex - too much to read, but read a little.  1.  Brady is good enough to perform even with just an ok Oline.  I know this because Brady performed well last year and Manning has done it the last 2 years and the colts are still searching for a combination that will really work.

    RESPONSE: Spare me...Dog(gg). Manning was hardly touched last season, while Brady got killed.

    ResponseResponse: - with all due respect Tex the pats were sacked 3rd fewest times last year and second fewest per pass attempt.  To suggest that Brady got killed (he was sacked 16 times to Manning's 10) is a bit far fetched.  


     
      3.  IMO the dominance that the pats demonstrated in the first half of the decade was all about the defense which no longer exists.

    RESPONSE: Unlike the Colts, the Pats had balance on both sides of the ball. They were better than the Colts...who were a "soft" dome team. The Indy teams since 2006 are much better defensively...and tougher.

    ResponseResponse - Well you are right that the colts had no defense and certainly the pats offense was good enough, so I'll meet you half way here.  I still believe the pats dominant D was their strength.  And I agree their great defensive players got old without having someone waiting in the wings to fill the spots effectively.

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    ResponseResponse: - with all due respect Tex the pats were sacked 3rd fewest times last year and second fewest per pass attempt.  To suggest that Brady got killed (he was sacked 16 times to Manning's 10) is a bit far fetched. 

    RESPONSE: Come on, Dog(gg)! You follow football enough to know that sack stats don't tell the whole story. Brady was getting hit...though not sacked, far too often. Did boy Peyton have to play the season with a sore shoulder, and broken ribs? Brady did. 
    Posted by underdoggg

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TateGroup. Show TateGroup's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    guys.... ><> look a fish!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

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    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    The rebuilding/reloading is going on right now in front of our eyes. Apparently, irrational Pats fans expect SB titles every year, even when borderline HOF players leave the team in concurrent years.  They also use NO CONTEXT in comparison to other teams' missed draft picks or personnel.

    RESPONSE: Are you really setting forth the argument that the Pats should be excused for their poor drafts in 2006, 2008, and 2009...because other teams have drafted poorly too? LOL!! 

    NE Is just fine. Just fine.
     
    RESPONSE: Let's see...the Pats get blown out at home by a not so great Ravens' team...they have gaping holes at TE, OLB, DE, and WR...plus needs at RB, OL, and for a kick returner, have Wes Welker still in the process of recovering from a serious knee injury...and everything is "just fine"?? 

    And some of you will look like complete rubes when September comes.   BB has been methodically planning for this for over 2 years. First, with the weeding out of the dynasty core (Bruschi, Seymour, Samuel, Vrabel, Harrison, etc). That alone would wreck any good/great team for a decade.  The fact he's leading this team to 10+ win seasons in less then good circumstances is incredible.
     
    RESPONSE: Stop gulping the koolaid. If you're not careful, you'll choke...just like Peyton Manning. The Pats have done a poor job of replacing their core players, due primarily to some horrid drafts. Did BB plan that, too? 

    The only reason why the D looked bad last year was a pass rush and inexperience.

    RESPONSE: Oh...OK. Is that all it was? LOL!! 

    Both are clearly fixable and are being addressed right now.
     
    RESPONSE: Thank you. I feel so much better knowing that these matters are being "discussed right now". So...lack of a pass rush is "clearly fixable"? Then why wasn't it fixed last year?

    On offense, they need health.

    RESPONSE: Can they get that in the draft? Welker is out...and may never be the same player that he once was. Thirty-three year old Steven Neal hasn't been healthy for years. Tom Brady can't stay healthy, because his overrated OL is not adequately protecting him.  

      They also need an infusion of youth at WR, RB and TE.  And this is where the smart spending (not overspending like Oakland, Wash or the Jets do), and FOUR picks in the top 53 of the draft (deepest in decades), comes into play.

    RESPONSE: Smart spending? What smart spending? The Patriots did nothing in free agency.

    Some of you are too dramatic and have way too much time on your hands and little understanding of this within the context of the NFL.

    RESPONSE: And some are extremely condescending, and think that they know more than they do.

    At the end of 2010, people will all be wondering just how in the hell Andy Dufresne, ehh, I mean Bill Belichick, got the best of the AFC again.  Pats trade with SD and move back to the 28th.

    RESPONSE: Why would San Diego do that? Their main need appears to be at NT and at RB. Who do you think that they're targeting, which would require them to move up 6 spots to #22?

    They gain a 3rd: 1.  #28 Odrick DE PSU 2.  #44 Jerry Hughes OLB TCU 3.  #48 Kareem Jackson CB Bama 4.  #53 Marty Gilyard WR Cincy 3rd Rd acquired in SD trade is moved to Oakland for MLB Kirk Morrison. Round 4; Ben Tate, RB Auburn Yup. Yup.  I like the possibilities in this draft. A lot.

    RESPONSE: Jerry Hughes is an intriguing prospect. But, isn't he a bit smaller than BB likes in his system? Furthermore, do you really think he'll last to #44? Why do you think the "Cincinnati Kid" will still be around at #53? Though this is reportedly a deep draft, it is not very deep at WR.

    Posted by russgriswold


         Hey Russ...I really hope you're right. But, I don't see it. The Patriots have a ton of holes to fill.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    ResponseResponse: - with all due respect Tex the pats were sacked 3rd fewest times last year and second fewest per pass attempt.  To suggest that Brady got killed (he was sacked 16 times to Manning's 10) is a bit far fetched. 

    RESPONSE: Come on, Dog(gg)! You follow football enough to know that sack stats don't tell the whole story. Brady was getting hit...though not sacked, far too often. Did boy Peyton have to play the season with a sore shoulder, and broken ribs? Brady did. 

    TP - A bit feisty aren't you?  I am aware that sacks don't tell the whole story, but in the absence of a stat for QB pressures or QB hits (attributable to the QB and not the hitter), the sack number is the best assessment I have.  Maybe you have access to the stats that I mention that can better prove your point, but otherwise your assertion that Brady got killed doesn't jibe with the stats available. 

    Additionally, I give both Brady and Manning the credit they deserve for having the skill to avoid sacks that other QB's can't.  And thus relative to this, if they can avoid the sack, then I also think they are aware and skilled enough to avoid the hit when they can.  As for Brady's broken ribs, was this ever confirmed - maybe it was. 


    Here is what Brady said about the ribs:  

    Brady was asked on Monday morning during an interview on Boston sports radio station WEEI if he could confirm the injuries. While kicking off his answer with a joke ("What's the injury report say?"), he did address the issue. "I'm feeling really good," Brady said. "Everyone breaks bones over the course of the year. I'm feeling pretty good. It's the best I've felt in a while." 


    Was that a confirmation or denial?

    Here's what Belichick said regarding Charlie Casserly's report that Brady played with broken ribs: 
    “Who’s been wrong more than Charley Casserly since he left the Redskins? His percentage is like a meteorologist,” Belichick said. “He has no relationship to this team. I’d say less than zero. Based on what? He’s never at a practice, never at a game...

    Further media reports don't seem to agree on when Brady's ribs were broken, if they were at all.  Some have it at the end of the season, some have it during preseason. 

    As for the shoulder, I don't know what to believe.  He's been on the injury report for it for years without surgery.  But I digress:

    My point is I think you are overstating how much Brady got killed because of his o-line, and sometimes when QB's do get killed it can be as much their fault as the o-line.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Looking at the holes the Patriots have to fill the draft picks available to them and the other teams that will be in the mix particularly in the AFC I think there is reason to think 10-6 or better is where the Patriots will be which means they are a wild card team at worst. That is fine in my book if they make the right choices they are going to be in the mix of superbowl championships for the next 6 years maybe beyond depending on how successful we are in moving on from Brady when he is done.
     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

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    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    Yeah and September is months away.  This is the best possible situation I can think of at the right time.  Holes to fill, yet they'll get 4 1st rd talent picks by Friday 4/23, if they use all their picks in the first two rounds. Why is it "lol!" when I point out you need to look at other teams for a barometer of drafting?

    RESPONSE: Why a LOL?? Because saying that others did poorly too, and using that to excuse the Patriot's  poor performance, is a child's argument.

    How old are you?

    RESPONSE: Sorry Russ...but that's top secret stuff...LOL!! 

    Do you understand concepts well or...?

    RESPONSE: Gee...I think so. What "concepts" are we speaking of?

    Their best pass rushers were traded and/or quit (Seymour, Vrable and Adalius). That's why it was a problem, Einstein.

    RESONSE: Gee, Russ, I didn't know that...LOL!! I'll overlook your rudeness, because I'll take it that you may not be able to comprehend the "concept" of a civil discussion. 

    Are you going to pretend those moves (getting younger/adding picks) were bad moves too?
     
    RESPONSE: The "concept" of getting younger and adding picks is fine. But, it's what eventually is done with those picks that matters. The Pats have squandered too many picks of late. 

    I suppose you expected them to get immediate results in this area as far as turnover?
     
    RESPONSE: Absolutely!! I expect BB and his scouting department to draft guys who can play. That's their job.  They didn't do their jobs successfully in 2006, 2008, and 2009. If things don't improve in 2010, then the  Pats could be on their way to returning to the depths of being a 3rd world NFL team.

    Irrational much?

    RESPONSE: The poor drafts, and some poor personnel decisions, have done much to leave the Pats in the hole that they're in. I expect BB, one of the best football men in the business, to learn from the mistakes made, and correct them. It is, or should be, the goal of every NFL team to win the SB...not win 10 games. 

         Tom Brady is perhaps the greatest QB of all-time. But, he won't be around forever. I hate to see the Patriots' wasting the years he has left by surrounding him with mediocre talent...on both offense and defense. 


    Posted by russgriswold

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
         Sorry if this depresses you, but, after an extremely disappointing 2009 season, one has to wonder whether the Patriots have become a team caught between a quest to reload, or a plan to rebuild? When scanning the Patriots' roster, the team looks like a giant piece of swiss cheese, with holes everywhere: I.) Coaching: The Pats still have the best head coach in the game in BB. Yet, few would argue that 2009 was one of his better years. The Pats were repeatedly out-coached in the second half of games, and their play calling, both on offense and defense, seemed to lack imagination, and were predicable. Could it be that BB is overloading himself with responsibilities? Has he ever had a weaker set of assistants? The Patriots took a step to remedy this situation by removing their ineffective DC, Dean Pees. But, this was a case of addition by subtraction. Why wasn't a veteran coordinator brought in?   II.) Personnel Department: The teams' losses in this area have been underrated. Though some say that the Patriots have drafted terribly since 2004, that seems to be a bit of a stretch. In 2005 and 2007, I thought that the Patriots drafted very well...when including the trades made using draft choices. But, the 2006, 2008 and 2009 drafts, could have, and should have, been better. Relatively high draft choices such as Chad Jackson, Terrence Wheatley, Shawn Crable, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, Kevin O'Connell, and David Thomas have, for whatever reason, not panned out. III.) Special Teams: The Pats weekly lost field position battles with opposing teams in 2009. This was particularly damaging on the road. The main culprits? A weak punter, no effective kickoff returner, and, save for Wes Welker, who likely won't be available for most of 2010, no effective punt returner. IV.) Offense:        1.) QB:  Tom Brady turns 33. Do you-all feel comfortable with Brian Hoyer being groomed as the Pats' QB of the future?      2.) RB: Laurence Maroney has disappointed...the remaining Pats' RBs of note are 34 years old.       3.) TE:  The position is currently vacant.      4.) OL: OTs Matt Light and Nick Kaczur are not dependable protectors of a 33 year old pocket passer. Steve Neal is 33 years old, and rarely healthy. Center Dan Koppen doesn't seem to be the same player since his shoulder injury. Logan Mankins is displeased with his contract situation.        5.) WR : Randy Moss turns 33. Opposite him, there is no one of note. All-World slot receiver Wes Welker will likely miss half of the 2010 season...and may never be the same lightening quick player that he once was.   V.) Defense:       1.) DL : Once the strength of this team...but now in tatters. NT Vince Wilfolk is aboard, but DE Ty Warren has been doing a Steven Neal imitation of late. Richard Seymour is long gone...and the Pats will have to wait until 2011 to recoup anything from his absence. Dependable reserve Jarvis Green is gone. The Pats need to find a DE to replace Seymour.      2.) ILB : Though no Patrick Willis or Ray Lewis, Jerod Mayo is a very good player, when healthy. Gary Guyton has made strides, but seems better cast as a quality reserve, or OLB. There is no depth .       3.) OLB : Could have had Clay Mathews...but that's another story. Their best player, and best (sole?) pass-rusher at this position is veteran Tully Banta-Cain. Loads of help needed here .       4.) Secondary: Drafting mistakes at CB, and some poor free agency pick-ups, have forced the Pats to use an inordinate amount of their resources, including cap space and draft picks, on the secondary. The result? Other positions of need, such as OLB, have been neglected. That said, the Patriots appear to be fairly set here.       The bottom line is...that the Patriots need to have a monster draft, and hope that players such as Brandon Tate, Tyrone McKenzie, Ron Brace, Patrick Chung, and Shawn Crable, finally step up in 2010.      Here are some interesting articles on the Pats reloading/rebuilding process for 2010: http://www.patspulpit.com/2010/2/17/1314241/new-england-patriots-links-2-17-10 , and  http://blog.pfwonline.com/?p=2541 .       Here is also an excellent article on the Philadelphia Eagles, who appear to be in similar straights as the Patriots: http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20100406_Rich_Hofmann__Why_this_really_isn_t_rebuilding_for_Eagles.html .      Thoughts?              
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Exactly correct, texas, it does depress me. But, overall, I'm not nearly as pessimistic as you are. I'm not sure what the difference would be betwen reloading and rebuilding but, yes, the Pats have holes to fill.

    What NFL team doesn't?

    I think you're underrating our Oline big time. They're not the best but neither are they the worst;

    http://bleacherreport.com/articles/234176-2009-offensive-line-rankings

    That report doesn't include the emergence of volmer. replacing kazur will be a big upgrade in itself. The pats traditionally like the later picks for restocking the Oline. We have plenty of them this year and I'me guessing we'll find a stud or two there this year. 

    I agree on play calling and assistants. Way below par. Dumping Pees is a start but I keep wondering why BB keeps leaving assistant and co-ordinator jobs either unfilled or filled by rookies. Its nice to promote from within but I was never comfortable having a 20-something kid as OC. 

    Our drafts could have been better over the past few years but, again, what team can look back at the past 3-4 years' drafts,  with the benefit of hindsight, and feel that they made all the right moves? Sure the Pats have room for improvement but it could have been much worse, too.

    I completely agree on our RB situation. We need young blood ASAP at the very least. I'd like to see us get a actual feature back in round 1-2, instead or combing the waiver wire for other teams' has-beens. Come ON! You're not going to win anything in the NFL with a stable of 34 YO RBs, most of whom are injured at more often that not all season.

    D-line and OLB are our primary weaknesses now, as we all know. IMO opinion, this draft determines whether we regain our position as an elite team or fall back into  obscurity.

    If we come away with an above average DE, (there are plenty out there) a starting quality OLB/pass rusher (like graham or kindle), a stud TE and a stud RB, we're back in business. If our IR list finally contributes, that's just found money. I believe we'll mine the lower rounds for CB and Oline help. 

    With our 2 first rounders next year, we're in pretty good shape for the future.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobomul. Show bobomul's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Tex,

    I think almost all NFL fans in every city think thier Offensive Line gives up too many sacks and hits on their QBs.  Same in N.E. Do you have any emperical evidence the the Pats' OL gave up a comparatively high amount of sacks and hits on Brady last year or are you just talking out of your a**?  (My guess is you don't have any stats to back up your analysis).

    No need to waste a 1st round pick on a OL as the hardest player to find is a LT and I think they have one in SeaBass.  Put Vollimer at LT and move Light to RT for 2010.  If Light refuses to move, they can cut him. But Light still was better than about half the other LTs in the league last year and should be able to fill in nicely at RT for the last year of his contract.  Move Kaczur to RG to compete fof a spot. If he doesn't look comfortable at guard, cut him and eat the rest of his contract in this non-cap season. Draft a OL in the 2nd round to transition him in for a starting position in 2011.

    Use the #22 for a pass rushing OLB or DE.  This is the hardest skill to find for someone that can play in the 3-4 system BB employs and they need to find one early in the draft.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    The only teams that rebuild are the ones that can't draft.  The Pats were 5-11 the year before they won their 1st superbowl.  So I don't buy into any of this rebuilding crap.  They got very lucky with Brady in the 6th thanks to the late Dick Rehbein.  No matter which way you cut it, the Pats have drafted poorly the last few seasons.  Their offseason FA moves have been pretty pathetic.  This is why the Pats are in the situation they are in.  Brady can keep them competitive, but only for so long.  If the Pats don't get their s*** together in the personnel and offensive coaching department, then expect a very steady decline.  I'm a Pats fan, but I'm not just going to blindly approve of everything they do as genius or the best move possible.  So far this season is proving to be more of the same, not addressing holes with quality FA, only hasbeens nobody really wants.
    Posted by BBRULES23


    Amen brother!!! The Pats get caught up in picking up older cheaper
    fa's (deltha o'neal, joey gallaway, alex smith etc.) who they end up
    cutting anyways. With the money we wasted on some of these players
    could have been used to pick up better fa's. Might have had 2 spend a lil more
    cash but at least they would still be contributing.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    Tex, I think almost all NFL fans in every city think thier Offensive Line gives up too many sacks and hits on their QBs.  Same in N.E. Do you have any emperical evidence the the Pats' OL gave up a comparatively high amount of sacks and hits on Brady last year or are you just talking out of your a**?  (My guess is you don't have any stats to back up your analysis).
     
    RESPONSE: Did you watch the Pats play last year? I did. Unfortunarely, I couldn't find any cite which kept track on the number of QB hits Brady took. But, I do know that he was hit an astounding twenty-three (23) times against the NY Jets in the Pats' loss at the Meadowlands: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2009/09/putting_a_hurting_on_tom_
    brady.html
    .

         In case you've forgotten, Brady finished the season with a sore shoulder, broken ribs, and a broken finger on his left hand.

         Here are other articles regarding Brady getting mauled: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/08/
    revisiting_the.html
    .
     
         Here's a quote from an article written at the start of last season:

         "...Before Brady was knocked out of commission on opening day last season, he was getting hit more than almost every other passer. Even while he and receivers Randy Moss and Wes Welker were revising the NFL record book with their prolific numbers in 2007, Brady got jostled.
        

         ESPN Stats & Information tracked the number of times quarterbacks were hit while throwing in 2006 and 2007 (I could not find such stats for 2009). Brady and Carson Palmer each took 86 hits, tied for most on the list. In 2007, pass-rushers hit Brady 42 times while throwing, second to Kurt Warner's 51 (remember, the Jets hit Brady was hit 23 times in one game last season!!).

         Some might be surprised by those numbers, but most fans don't notice contact if the quarterback gets the ball away. Brady's quick release and pre-surgery (and pre-knee brace) elusiveness made him tough to sack." http://espn.go.com/blog/afceast/post/_/id/1839/pressure-on-pats-o-line-to-protect-rebuilt-brady

         Want more? Here's a Mike Reiss story on the pre-season hit on Brady, which likely gave him shoulder problems for the season: http://www.boston.com/sports/football/patriots/reiss_pieces/2009/08/
    breaking_down_t_8.html
     

         This after the SB loss to the Giants: http://www.nfl.com/news/story?id=09000d5d8108c8ba&template=with-video-with-comments&confirm=true

     
         Still think I'm dreaming this up, Bobo?

    Posted by bobomul

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    It's because the drafts have been weak of late, Texas.

    RESPONSE: Yes! It took you long enough to finally see the light!! 

    Jesus.

    RESPONSE: Yes...pray to him that the Patriots draft better in April.

    Please use a context and stop acting like the Pats are missing as badly as you claim . The biggest pet peave I have is the media and/or the fans either too ignorant/dumb or purposely leaving out facts and contexts to pretend they are correct.

    RESPONSE: Really?? What facts am I leaving out, or taking out of context? Perhaps you should read my response above to Bobo.

    Name me a team that replaces like 4 or 5 borderline HOF players overnight and wins divisions on the fly???
     
    RESPONSE: You are changing the topic! We're talking about being a legitimate SB contender. But, to answer your question as to whether other teams have been able to continue to be successful despite losses to key players...yes...the Colts and, to a slightly lesser extent, the Eagles and Steelers, have been able to absorb injuries and losses, and yet still continue on a high level.  

    You can't do it, can you?  "LOL", right Texas?  Lol!  What's the reality show on tv tonight?  Did you get the new Lady Gaga record?  "lol"

    RESPONSE: Be careful not to choke on that koolaid, son. The fact that you cite "Lady Gaga" tells me all I need to know about you...LOL!! 
    Posted by russgriswold

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    They should be drafting to reload...

    DB's are solid, two DL are excellent other vets are adequate as is, all they lack for RB is a bruiser. 

    They get a pass rush; a speedy receiver opposite Moss who can be groomed to be the #1 in 2009; a large RB who can get 3 yds at a crack to run off the clock; and draft a decent receing TE (to go with the best blocking TE since Graham), draft value OLs and they contend vs anyone. 

    Basically two DT/OLBs for the pass rush DL.... Lot's out there.  The TE should be very easy....there are a lot out there.  Lots of bigger RB's too. This draft is almost perfect for their needs.

    One wildcard to watch...McCluster can be a Sproles type and just might be around well into rd 2. One big trade possibility:  Marshall.... Other WR to watch Benn

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from Vladtheimpaler1. Show Vladtheimpaler1's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    the draft will help the team in the future,but its not gonna take them over the top this year,or solve there holes on the roster this year.no way you can tell who will make an impact right away,or who will be busts.yes its great in building for the future,but the team needs key players now.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    I disagree with that. This years draft is like an extended first round. The players more developed than a typical draft. OLB/DE, a receiving TE and RB should constribute imediately.  Agreed WR and interior LBs would take a while.  The DBs have already been integrated or at least initiated.  
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    TP - I'll say this again - Sometimes hits and sacks are the QB's fault.  Now this may actually say something positive about Brady so don't take it wrong.  He may stand in or step into the pocket in order to make sure he gets his pass off and take a hit that others might not.  While doing so, the O-line may have kept the d off of him for an acceptable amount of time. 

    Per this link from another post, it shows (at least by this site's ranking) that, in fact, the pats o-lineman rank high - definitely higher than the colts.

    http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=G&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    TP - I'll say this again - Sometimes hits and sacks are the QB's fault.  Now this may actually say something positive about Brady so don't take it wrong.  He may stand in or step into the pocket in order to make sure he gets his pass off and take a hit that others might not.  While doing so, the O-line may have kept the d off of him for an acceptable amount of time.  Per this link from another post, it shows (at least by this site's ranking) that, in fact, the pats o-lineman rank high - definitely higher than the colts. http://www.profootballfocus.com/by_position.php?tab=by_position&season=2009&pos=G&stype=r&runpass=&teamid=-1&numsnaps=25&numgames=1
    Posted by underdoggg


         Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from bobomul. Show bobomul's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    Check the site again, Tex.  You can click on Tackles, Centers or Guards.
    In addition to Mankins and Neal, Vollimer did very well and Koppen was positive.  Light was down (finishing 33rd for Tackles) but he graded out very well in 2007 and 2008 - finishing 10th and 3rd overall.

    Total hits is also a function of total pass attempts as most of the hits leaders are also leaders in pass attempts.  Here's an overall ranking of offensive lines by Cold Hard Football Facts for 2009:
     
    Final 2009 Offensive Hog Index
     Team YPA NPP% 3down% #Avg 
    1New Orleans4.5375.84344.6765.3
    2Tennessee5.1815.92441.59125.7
    3Dallas4.8227.36940.59148.3
    4tJacksonville4.5559.591945.1349.3
    4tMiami4.38109.151648.9829.3
    6tBaltimore4.7249.141541.591110.0
    6tNew England4.12215.08143.69810.0
    8Indianapolis3.54305.21249.22111.0
    9Minnesota4.11226.97744.84511.3
    10Green Bay4.27149.622047.03312.3
    11Atlanta4.16187.371042.131012.7
    12N.Y. Giants4.15198.011242.86913.3
    13San Diego3.33326.61544.39714.7
    14Carolina4.76310.642437.271915.3
    15Denver4.17167.941136.282216.3

    NE finished 6th overall.  Not the best but far from the bottom of the pile.  NE ranked only 18th in Defensive Hog Index.  This is were he focus should be in the draft room.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    I agree on Kazur, but then again they have Seabass who should start.  Light has issues against speedier types, but isn't close to the issue Kazur has been.  I'd like to see of they could switch Light to RT, at least see how it goes in camp.

    I really don't think Mankins is a problem.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdoggg. Show underdoggg's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      Those are stats for guards only. The Pats' main problems are at center, and at OT...as Nick Kaczur and Matt Light are weak links.
    Posted by TexasPat3


    The tackles are listed, and the pats tackles are even better than the guards compared to the colts.  The pats tackles are ranked 5, 28, 33 (they include Vollmer).  Indy's are 27, and 66.

    Can't fault the line for everything.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mar10fern. Show mar10fern's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    WHAT A BUNCH OF CLOWNS!

    Have any of you checked out the odds for the 2011 Superbowl?

    Either you guys are brilliant NFL minds...Or the wiseguys in Vegas must be clueless!
     
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