Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? : Check the site again, Tex.  You can click on Tackles, Centers or Guards. In addition to Mankins and Neal, Vollimer did very well and Koppen was positive.  Light was down (finishing 33rd for Tackles) but he graded out very well in 2007 and 2008 - finishing 10th and 3rd overall. Total hits is also a function of total pass attempts as most of the hits leaders are also leaders in pass attempts.  Here's an overall ranking of offensive lines by Cold Hard Football Facts for 2009:   Final 2009 Offensive Hog Index   Team  YPA  #  NPP%  #  3down%  # Avg  1 New Orleans 4.53 7 5.84 3 44.67 6 5.3 2 Tennessee 5.18 1 5.92 4 41.59 12 5.7 3 Dallas 4.82 2 7.36 9 40.59 14 8.3 4t Jacksonville 4.55 5 9.59 19 45.13 4 9.3 4t Miami 4.38 10 9.15 16 48.98 2 9.3 6t Baltimore 4.72 4 9.14 15 41.59 11 10.0 6t New England 4.12 21 5.08 1 43.69 8 10.0 8 Indianapolis 3.54 30 5.21 2 49.22 1 11.0 9 Minnesota 4.11 22 6.97 7 44.84 5 11.3 10 Green Bay 4.27 14 9.62 20 47.03 3 12.3 11 Atlanta 4.16 18 7.37 10 42.13 10 12.7 12 N.Y. Giants 4.15 19 8.01 12 42.86 9 13.3 13 San Diego 3.33 32 6.61 5 44.39 7 14.7 14 Carolina 4.76 3 10.64 24 37.27 19 15.3 15 Denver 4.17 16 7.94 11 36.28 22 16.3 NE finished 6th overall.  Not the best but far from the bottom of the pile.  NE ranked only 18th in Defensive Hog Index.  This is were he focus should be in the draft room.
    Posted by bobomul


         I see no stats listed above on the number of times Brady was hit. I do know that Brady got creamed last season...including the game against the Jets, where he was hit an astounding 23 times!! I did find stats showing where Brady and Carson Palmer, in 2007, led the league in getting hit...with 86 hits each for the entire season!!! 

         
    How far can the Pats go without a healthy Brady?
                 
     

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    WHAT A BUNCH OF CLOWNS! Have any of you checked out the odds for the 2011 Superbowl? Either you guys are brilliant NFL minds...Or the wiseguys in Vegas must be clueless!
    Posted by mar10fern


         How simplistic you are!! Do you think that the Pats, as currently constructed, are SB favorites? Weren't the Pats picked to go to the SB last year, too? The Vegas Book is designed to get gamblers to place as much money down as possible...not to accurately pick who wins. That's why there are point spreads set for each game.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? : The tackles are listed, and the pats tackles are even better than the guards compared to the colts.  The pats tackles are ranked 5, 28, 33 (they include Vollmer).  Indy's are 27, and 66. Can't fault the line for everything.
    Posted by underdoggg


         Where are your stats on QB hits?? Tom Brady got hit 23 times in one game.  Peyton Manning might have been hit 23 times all last season.

         The game plan for every team is to pressure, and beat up on Tom Brady. The Pats need to take steps to adequately protect him. They must upgrade their center, and RT spots (Vollmer appears to be the answer at LT).
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Move Light to RT and put Vollimer at LT. 

    Matt Light is probably better than 25 starting RTs at this point in his carrer (ranked 19th for Tackles overall by Scouts, Inc prior to 2009).  He's still faster and quicker than most RTs and is a decent run blocker, Light just has problems with some speed rushers that frequent the right side of the defense.  I'm sure BB was reluctant to make a in-season switch in positions for Light last year, but they'll have all pre-season to get Matt Light comforable on the right side.  If he says no, cut him.  But they have short money on Light at this point in his contract and they can try to find his replacement in the 2nd/3rd round (trade) in the draft without having to throw the rookie into the fire right away.  Maybe Light resigns and plays a couple more years at RT after 2010.

    Koppen finished 18th last year for Centers in that Football Focus grading system.  Scouts, Inc had Koppen randed tied for 3rd for Centers going into the 2009 season.  12th-18th seems about right for Koppen: an average to above average center right now.  Won't kill you but not a Pro Bowl player at current. 
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    TP - again - sometimes QB hits are the fault of the QB.

    By the way, that site has stats for the # of times a QB was hit as he threw - 9 times for Brady.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    TP - again - sometimes QB hits are the fault of the QB. By the way, that site has stats for the # of times a QB was hit as he threw - 9 times for Brady.
    Posted by underdoggg


         BS...are you trying to tell me that Brady, according to your cited stats...was listed as only getting hit 9 times as he threw all season? He was hit 23 times in just one game against the Jets!

         I guess stats can be twisted to show anything that the author wants to show. People who watched the Patriots games last season know what a terrific beating Brady took. 
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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    Move Light to RT and put Vollimer at LT.  Matt Light is probably better than 25 starting RTs at this point in his carrer (ranked 19th for Tackles overall by Scouts, Inc prior to 2009).  He's still faster and quicker than most RTs and is a decent run blocker, Light just has problems with some speed rushers that frequent the right side of the defense.

    RESPONSE: Both Kaczur and Light are now marginal OTs...regardless of what those stats may show. Didn't you watch the games last year? They were effective against the weaker teams, but were exposed whenever the Pats played a good team. Light should not be moved to RT at this stage of his career. Believe it or not, it's a different position...footwork wise and angle wise. Most likely the Pats will start Vollmer at LT and Kaczur at RT...and trade Light...or go with Light at LT, and Vollmer at RT...using Kaczur off the bench. Light simply has gotten older...and needs to be replaced.    

    I'm sure BB was reluctant to make a in-season switch in positions for Light last year, but they'll have all pre-season to get Matt Light comforable on the right side.  If he says no, cut him.  But they have short money on Light at this point in his contract and they can try to find his replacement in the 2nd/3rd round (trade) in the draft without having to throw the rookie into the fire right away.  Maybe Light resigns and plays a couple more years at RT after 2010.
     
    RESPONSE: Again, I think that Light is too old to make the switch...even if he wanted to. Interesting point about the money discrepancy between RT and LT. If Light is traded, don't expect a 2nd or even a 3rd rounder in return. His value is probably a 4th rounder.

    Koppen finished 18th last year for Centers in that Football Focus grading system.  Scouts, Inc had Koppen randed tied for 3rd for Centers going into the 2009 season.  12th-18th seems about right for Koppen: an average to above average center right now.  Won't kill you but not a Pro Bowl player at current.

    RESPONSE: Finishing 18th out of 32 is not above average. Koppen's play has clearly deteriorated, to the point that he too needs to be replaced.  
     
    Posted by bobomul


         Bobo...I don't enjoy saying these things, or making these arguments. I truly wish to be dead wrong. But, I got to call 'em like I see 'em.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? :      BS...are you trying to tell me that Brady, according to your cited stats...was listed as only getting hit 9 times as he threw all season? He was hit 23 times in just one game against the Jets!      I guess stats can be twisted to show anything that the author wants to show. People who watched the Patriots games last season know what a terrific beating Brady took. 
    Posted by TexasPat3


    TP - its not my site.  On another thread, one of your fellow pats fans listed it.  Go back to it.  It shows stats for QB's. 

    But again - when QB's get hit, sometimes it is the QB's fault.  don't you agree?
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Kazur is the weak link. He's so pourous Brady can't get out of the way many times.  I hope they do look to draft a RT and play Vollmer at LT

    Light is what he's always been.  If he could be moved to RT it helps simply because he's not protecting Brady's blindside. ...I don't know that he could switched but it's worth a shot. He's at least a valuable cog as depth.


    RE the OC/DC thing.  BB has always been a micro-manager.  That's one reason Weis left for ND (and other coordinators leave) and there was no mention of him returning. We know kid who played under Weis at ND... All I can say is he's a Grade A jerk who was in over his head, and the record shows it.  Right or wrong BB has always been the center of the O and D.
     
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

         I can't understand why some posters are straining to defend the OL. The Pats have no running game. But, instead of blaming the OL for not opening holes for the RBs, they blame the RBs! Their HOF QB gets his knee destroyed in 2008, gets hit an unbelievable 23 times in one game, and suffered a sore shoulder, broken ribs, and a broken finger...and yet they claim that he's been adequately protected.

         Mercy.   
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading? : TP - its not my site.  On another thread, one of your fellow pats fans listed it.  Go back to it.  It shows stats for QB's.  But again - when QB's get hit, sometimes it is the QB's fault.  don't you agree?
    Posted by underdoggg


         Those stats are a joke. I've already posted an article on the first game against the Jets last season, a game in which Brady got hit 23 times. 

         To blame Brady for holding the ball too long is ridiculous. Like Manning, he's one of the best at getting the ball away quickly. 
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    TP - your stat is a NYJ stat.  It may not be entirely accurate.  Ryan in his short time as head coach has effectively demonstrated his capacity for hyperbole, so I and everyone else should take that stat with a grain of salt. 

    Additionally, this was Brady's second Reg Season game since 2008.  What was demonstrated early in the season last year was that Brady (as I claimed he would) had a little trouble getting back to his old form.  Even if he was not hit 23 times, he may have been hit more frequently than normal. 

    As for getting the ball away quickly, I hope you are not talking about a quick release, because I am not.  Brady may very well be the kind of QB to wait and wait and wait for his players to get open getting rid of the ball.  If he was rusty (which he was), that could contribute to holding the ball.  Roethlisberger is a fantastic QB, but is known for holding the ball too long.  He takes hits.  Is that the line's fault or his fault.  I am not suggesting that Brady is in the same league as Roethlisberger for holding the ball, but he may be more prone to it than you want to allow.  And certainly that may be the case last year. 

    Moss' routes usually take a while to develop.  Welker is frequently not the 1st receiver in a progression.  So it may be that Brady holds the ball.

     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

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         I can't understand why some posters are straining to defend the OL. The Pats have no running game. But, instead of blaming the OL for not opening holes for the RBs, they blame the RBs! Their HOF QB gets his knee destroyed in 2008, gets hit an unbelievable 23 times in one game, and suffered a sore shoulder, broken ribs, and a broken finger...and yet they claim that he's been adequately protected.      Mercy.   
    Posted by TexasPat3

    Tex, I agree with you on this one. The numbers on that website don't translate to what we see on the field. If we had Barry Sanders the poor run blocking wouldn't be a problem. We do, however, have one of the best QB's who's adept at evading rushers and getting rid of the ball to avoid sacks and he still gets crushed.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    In Response to Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?:
         I can't understand why some posters are straining to defend the OL. The Pats have no running game. But, instead of blaming the OL for not opening holes for the RBs, they blame the RBs! Their HOF QB gets his knee destroyed in 2008, gets hit an unbelievable 23 times in one game, and suffered a sore shoulder, broken ribs, and a broken finger...and yet they claim that he's been adequately protected.      Mercy.   
    Posted by TexasPat3


    They didn't comit to the run in 2009, but still finish 12th in rushing. They couldn't close out the game because they didn't have a big back.  In 2008 they were 6th in rushing despite having a real feature back.  Same OL, but something like 50 less attempts. Having the man they thought would be the feature RB and (purhaps) the second best RB get hurt did not help in '09.

    Every QB gets hit. The 2008 hit was a freak accident from a S who was blocked. Yes they have some protection issues. They have Kazur who's porous and should be dumped, and Light who has issues vs faster rushers.  They have a replacement for Kazur.  Yes they need another RT or LT. Lets' not make them into the dregs of the universe either.
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

         I don't care if Jim Brown was running the ball for them...the Pats don't have the guys up front to play smashmouth football. Furthermore, they don't have a dominating defense...so they have to put up a ton of points against the better teams to win.

         But, those things aside...Brady is getting killed. No way he'll last two more seasons unless the OL does a much better job of protecting him. 
     
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    Re: Patriots Should Be Rebuilding, or Reloading?

    Let's not overreact, they have a few missing parts, albeit key parts.  They have the ability to correct much of that.

     
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