I don't know if I can agree with saying Manning and Brady are essentially the same in the playoffs. For one thing in Mannings earlier years he had more talent to work with on offense....receivers, running game. He also was playing in a dome. Brady did more with less in his early years compared to Manning and he did it in the freezing cold, snow and winds. I really can't think of any game changing picks that Brady threw in the playoffs - Manning has several - I'm not saying Brady didn't throw any picks, I'm just saying they weren't the type that made the game end right there and then. I will agree that Brady had the better coach and defense in his earlier years, but Manning had the allstars surrounding him on offense (that has to count for something).

As for Flacco, there is no way I'm putting him into an elite category to be mentioned with Manning or Brady (Or the second tier). I don't care that he beat our pathetically average defense last week, or that he should of beaten our even worse defense last year...in the grand scheme of things that is no accomplishment. If Flacco goes out and beats San Fran Sunday things may be different, but I'm getting tired of people putting average quarterbacks into elite company based off a couple of games. What the heck has Flacco done in his career that warrants that lofty category? In a quarterback driven league he has yet to throw for more than 4k yards in a season. He has never thrown for more than 25 touchdowns in a season - the guy has only gone over 90 in QB rating once in his career and his completion percentage is barely 60%. His offensive coordinator got fired this year....how many elite quarterbacks get their offensive coordinators fired in November? And it's not like he doesn't have an offensive line to play behind, or running game, or receivers....or a tight end. He's got a strong arm and he's not totally stupid...that's about it...above average at best.

Well that's my opinion, maybe I'm being too harsh on Flacco?

Whether it's fair or not, most QB's are rated by their Super Bowl records.  Brady has 5 appearances and 3 wins.  Manning has only 2 and 1, so Brady is clearly far ahead of him.  5 trips to the Super Bowl and 3 wins puts Brady among the alltime best.

If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

First, with Brady and Peyton:

Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

Mannings last 4 one and done's:

Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.

In response to dapats1281's comment:

If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

First, with Brady and Peyton:

Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

Mannings last 4 one and done's:

Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

In response to dapats1281's comment:

I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

Manning is a great QB, I'm not arguing that.  But the gap between 17 playoff wins and 9 playoff wins is pretty big.  I think Manning has defintely underachieved in the playoffs.  He's probably got more physical talent than Brady but he has failed in some big moments.

In response to dapats1281's comment:

I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

Manning is a great QB, I'm not arguing that.  But the gap between 17 playoff wins and 9 playoff wins is pretty big.  I think Manning has defintely underachieved in the playoffs.  He's probably got more physical talent than Brady but he has failed in some big moments.

I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.

In response to 42AND46's comment:

In response to dapats1281's comment:

If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

First, with Brady and Peyton:

Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

Mannings last 4 one and done's:

Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

You're right that Flacco is moving into that second tier if he plays well on Sunday, win or lose - especially win. 

You're wrong that quarterbacks aren't judged by Super Bowl wins. Marino is considered a less QB because he didn't win one. Manning (Peyton) helped to solidify his legacy when he did win one. I know you think it's simplistic but some things are simple. Elway's two Super Bowl wins late in his career did a lot for his legacy...

Peyton has exited the playoffs in the first round 9 out of 12 times. He's just not that great in the postseason, and I don't mean compared to Brady, I mean compared to anybody who has played a bunch of post season games. There is also the eye test. I have seen Peyton throw loss-clinching interceptions more than once, including this year. I have also seen Brady walk off the field in the Superbowl and all his team had to do was make a stop and the game is over, he wins. Can you imagine how silly your argument would be if Brady had won those two games and was 5-0 in Super Bowls? Obviously he could have played better in those two games but he did leave his team with a lead and that's something Peyton has not been able to do consisently. 

Look, Peyton is an all time great as well and his career isn't over. Neither is Brady's. 

Where it gets confusing is when you look at regular season....Manning is clearly one of the best, if not the best, regular season quarterback. Certainly of this generation. But I'd rather have his brother in a big game. 

I see Brady as a top five all time QB, in the modern era I have him about third myself but a major step below Montana and Elway. You can toss around Aikman and Bradshaw, I'd put Brady a bit ahead of them. However for me it's hard to see him overtaking Montana now, though I could see him overtaking Elway in my own subjective rankings if he can get to another Super Bowl....

(I don't take into account Starr, Unitas, Otto, Baugh....I just don't know how to assess them, seems to me they would all have been great in today's game but I don't know how to rank it). 

To me Peyton is top ten all time but maybe closer to ten than one. I have him right around Brett Favre but I could see him passing Favre by the time his career is over. I have Marino right around the same area, maybe Aikman, Bradshaw. That's fine company to be in, and Peyton isn't done yet. But he still has some things to prove to me in the postseason if he wants to climb higher. I have a hard time imagining him passing Brady in my rankings but if Brady never makes it back to the Super Bowl and Peyton makes it to two more and wins one then I'd have to take another look. On the other hand Big Ben, if he even gets to another Super Bowl he starts to get in that convo also. 

I don't have a problem with your opinion even though I differ strongly but I do have a problem with you dismissing anyone who puts Brady over Manning all time as a homer. C'mon, that's childish. Depends on their argument. For example I used to have Brady neck and neck with Montana but I had to downgrade him in recent years. These things happen, no homer issues here. If I was a homer I'd be pushing Bledsoe.

In response to dapats1281's comment:

In response to 42AND46's comment:

In response to dapats1281's comment:

If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

First, with Brady and Peyton:

Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

Mannings last 4 one and done's:

Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

i hear you and i agree but as much as i love eli i cant put him with brady peyton brees or rogers - he is not that type of qb and i dont think anything he does here on out will change that so i do put him with those guys

and thats probably how it will end for  big ben probably too-i thinkhe and eli are on that 5--6 level and i do believe both will see a spot in canton and yes both have a legit shot i believe to get to and win another sb-but i still cant put either with the tope 4 guys u mention

and flacco is not on ben or eli's level yet even of he has an MVP sb-he's got to do it longer

You're right that Flacco is moving into that second tier if he plays well on Sunday, win or lose - especially win. 

You're wrong that quarterbacks aren't judged by Super Bowl wins. Marino is considered a less QB because he didn't win one. Manning (Peyton) helped to solidify his legacy when he did win one. I know you think it's simplistic but some things are simple. Elway's two Super Bowl wins late in his career did a lot for his legacy...

Peyton has exited the playoffs in the first round 9 out of 12 times. He's just not that great in the postseason, and I don't mean compared to Brady, I mean compared to anybody who has played a bunch of post season games. There is also the eye test. I have seen Peyton throw loss-clinching interceptions more than once, including this year. I have also seen Brady walk off the field in the Superbowl and all his team had to do was make a stop and the game is over, he wins. Can you imagine how silly your argument would be if Brady had won those two games and was 5-0 in Super Bowls? Obviously he could have played better in those two games but he did leave his team with a lead and that's something Peyton has not been able to do consisently. 

Look, Peyton is an all time great as well and his career isn't over. Neither is Brady's. 

Where it gets confusing is when you look at regular season....Manning is clearly one of the best, if not the best, regular season quarterback. Certainly of this generation. But I'd rather have his brother in a big game. 

I see Brady as a top five all time QB, in the modern era I have him about third myself but a major step below Montana and Elway. You can toss around Aikman and Bradshaw, I'd put Brady a bit ahead of them. However for me it's hard to see him overtaking Montana now, though I could see him overtaking Elway in my own subjective rankings if he can get to another Super Bowl....

(I don't take into account Starr, Unitas, Otto, Baugh....I just don't know how to assess them, seems to me they would all have been great in today's game but I don't know how to rank it). 

To me Peyton is top ten all time but maybe closer to ten than one. I have him right around Brett Favre but I could see him passing Favre by the time his career is over. I have Marino right around the same area, maybe Aikman, Bradshaw. That's fine company to be in, and Peyton isn't done yet. But he still has some things to prove to me in the postseason if he wants to climb higher. I have a hard time imagining him passing Brady in my rankings but if Brady never makes it back to the Super Bowl and Peyton makes it to two more and wins one then I'd have to take another look. On the other hand Big Ben, if he even gets to another Super Bowl he starts to get in that convo also. 

I don't have a problem with your opinion even though I differ strongly but I do have a problem with you dismissing anyone who puts Brady over Manning all time as a homer. C'mon, that's childish. Depends on their argument. For example I used to have Brady neck and neck with Montana but I had to downgrade him in recent years. These things happen, no homer issues here. If I was a homer I'd be pushing Bledsoe.

dont put favre and peyton in the same sentence thats how much better peyton manning is than brett favre-now thats is anti-manning bias from a pats fan

peyton manning is the greatest regular season qb who has possibly ever played

and brady a "major"step below montana and elway? no way-and i wouldnt put elway with montana either

If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

 I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

In my eyes, I have Montana and Elway pretty close,