Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

    Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.

     



    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round.

     

     

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.




    Well I think when you say there is a big gap between Brady and Manning perceived by fans, I'd say that for the most part that is not true. People around some parts of the country consider Manning to be better than Brady. Some parts consider them equal...around here Manning is considered a choke artist. I'll tell you I didn't really consider Manning to be a choke artist until I heard how many one and dones he had and after watching him throw that awful interception across his body in overtime that last game - that was some real choke quality stuff right there. Never mind the fact that he threw another pick earlier in the game and had a fumble (that was called back, but should of been a fumble).

    The other thing that kind of shocked me is the way Manning looked on the field that day - it was a very cold game - and he walks out to center field for the coin toss looking like he was freezing to death. He had on what looked like a child's snow hood...he had his hands buried in his pockets...his shoulders were raised up towards his neck to gather extra warmth. I know it was cold, but at least look like it doesn't bother you - Ray Lewis looked like he was ready to take his shirt off and lay on the ground and start sunning himself. When I saw that I immediately thought...wow the Ravens have a chance in this game.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I'll tell you I didn't really consider Manning to be a choke artist until I heard how many one and dones he had and after watching him throw that awful interception across his body in overtime that last game - that was some real choke quality stuff right there. Never mind the fact that he threw another pick earlier in the game and had a fumble (that was called back, but should of been a fumble).

     

     

     

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    His SB pick six is legend as well.

     

    Can you imagine the deafening whine around here if Brady ever did something like that in a SB? He had a 100 PR going into the hail mary drive with 2 TD and 1 INT plus 275 yards in the last one and some oblivious "fans" still freaked out about that.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    Why would Flucko be in any debate?

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hetchinspete. Show Hetchinspete's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I don't know if I can agree with saying Manning and Brady are essentially the same in the playoffs. For one thing in Mannings earlier years he had more talent to work with on offense....receivers, running game. He also was playing in a dome. Brady did more with less in his early years compared to Manning and he did it in the freezing cold, snow and winds. I really can't think of any game changing picks that Brady threw in the playoffs - Manning has several - I'm not saying Brady didn't throw any picks, I'm just saying they weren't the type that made the game end right there and then. I will agree that Brady had the better coach and defense in his earlier years, but Manning had the allstars surrounding him on offense (that has to count for something).

    As for Flacco, there is no way I'm putting him into an elite category to be mentioned with Manning or Brady (Or the second tier). I don't care that he beat our pathetically average defense last week, or that he should of beaten our even worse defense last year...in the grand scheme of things that is no accomplishment. If Flacco goes out and beats San Fran Sunday things may be different, but I'm getting tired of people putting average quarterbacks into elite company based off a couple of games. What the heck has Flacco done in his career that warrants that lofty category? In a quarterback driven league he has yet to throw for more than 4k yards in a season. He has never thrown for more than 25 touchdowns in a season - the guy has only gone over 90 in QB rating once in his career and his completion percentage is barely 60%. His offensive coordinator got fired this year....how many elite quarterbacks get their offensive coordinators fired in November? And it's not like he doesn't have an offensive line to play behind, or running game, or receivers....or a tight end. He's got a strong arm and he's not totally stupid...that's about it...above average at best.

    Well that's my opinion, maybe I'm being too harsh on Flacco?



    The point I'll disagree on is that Flacco didn't get his offensive coordinator fired. The offense wasn't producing and maybe Flacco being in a slump had something to do with it but more of it goes to an unimaginative coordinator who couldn't get the offense to function well and score points. 

    As for Flacco, it's too early in his career to call him great. He's obviously a very good QB but not one of the elite but a SB win and more good seasons and he could be in the upper echelon of the NFL but not on of the all-time greats. 

    Hetch

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In the end there's little to debate...

    Brady and Manning are both locks for the Hall of Fame...

    Flaco isn't even the best QB in his own division...It's not enough to get to the Super Bowl to alter one's perception of greatness...Once there you have to lead your team to victory and play well. On Sunday he'll have a shot at getting his name in the conversation for the best in his division, but he's a long ways from first ballot consideration.

    Eli Manning has won twice, and in the process when the game was on the line. Led his team not once but twice on game winning 4th quarter drives. Eli, Rothlesberger and Brees are all in the conversation for hall of fame consideration. Flaco has the chance on Sunday to write the next chapter in his career and what he does in the next 4 or 5 years will go a long ways in determining if indeed he's worthy of "elite" status. IMHO it starts with kissing the shiny football...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

     

     

     



    Yeah genius, because somebody has to be a homer and completely lack objectivity to think a 9-12 vs a 17-7 record in the playoffs has any bearing on the worth of a guy who plays by far the most important role on a football team.

     



    Hey Babe, 

    Everyone knows you're the biggest Brady homer of all time. Any loss on his record is the fault of one of the other 52 players or the headcoaches. He's done nothing wrong.

    Here's the problem with looking at just the playoff records:

    Tuck rule game. Tuck rule call was correct, but it's almost a dumb as rule as challenges not being reviewable if you throw the flag on a turnover. And then Vinatieri had to make 45 yarder in those conditions. Had that been someone like Eli Manning, most people on the boards would have said the QB was lucky.

    AFC Championship game, Bledsoe finished the game. Troy Brown was the hero.

    Brady hasn't been completely dominant in the playoffs. He's been the QB of some really good teams. He's been good, not saying he hasn't, but he's not 17-7 without that defense early on his career.

    In the prime of their careers, both have led offense heavy teams that had bad defenses. Both have had similar success under that situation.

     

    Brees took the Saints to 7-9 and Schaub took the Texans to 12-4. If you think Schaub was a better regular season QB than Brees this season just because of his record then you're blind.

    QB records mean something, but they don't tell the whole story.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

    Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.

     



    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round.

     

     

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

     




    Well I think when you say there is a big gap between Brady and Manning perceived by fans, I'd say that for the most part that is not true. People around some parts of the country consider Manning to be better than Brady. Some parts consider them equal...around here Manning is considered a choke artist. I'll tell you I didn't really consider Manning to be a choke artist until I heard how many one and dones he had and after watching him throw that awful interception across his body in overtime that last game - that was some real choke quality stuff right there. Never mind the fact that he threw another pick earlier in the game and had a fumble (that was called back, but should of been a fumble).

     

    The other thing that kind of shocked me is the way Manning looked on the field that day - it was a very cold game - and he walks out to center field for the coin toss looking like he was freezing to death. He had on what looked like a child's snow hood...he had his hands buried in his pockets...his shoulders were raised up towards his neck to gather extra warmth. I know it was cold, but at least look like it doesn't bother you - Ray Lewis looked like he was ready to take his shirt off and lay on the ground and start sunning himself. When I saw that I immediately thought...wow the Ravens have a chance in this game.



    In the playoffs, there is a perception of a big gap.

     

    That throw across his body was horrendous, I agree. Manning has 8 one and done's which is an astoundingly high number. Brady has played a team in the playoffs the week after that team played Manning 3 times(This year, 2010 and 2007). Brady played poorly in all three games. Statistically, Manning has played better in those games than Brady. Other than a garbage TD with 24 seconds left in 2010, Manning led his team to more points than Brady in all three of those meetings.

    Pats have had easier first round matchups and slightly stronger defensive play than those Manning teams.

     

    Yeah, I also noticed Manning's body language during the coin toss. Didn't look like he wanted to be there. Look at the forum though, some people were saying the same about Brady

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from oklahomapatriot. Show oklahomapatriot's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    There is no debate. TB outshines them by a long shot

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hetchinspete's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I don't know if I can agree with saying Manning and Brady are essentially the same in the playoffs. For one thing in Mannings earlier years he had more talent to work with on offense....receivers, running game. He also was playing in a dome. Brady did more with less in his early years compared to Manning and he did it in the freezing cold, snow and winds. I really can't think of any game changing picks that Brady threw in the playoffs - Manning has several - I'm not saying Brady didn't throw any picks, I'm just saying they weren't the type that made the game end right there and then. I will agree that Brady had the better coach and defense in his earlier years, but Manning had the allstars surrounding him on offense (that has to count for something).

    As for Flacco, there is no way I'm putting him into an elite category to be mentioned with Manning or Brady (Or the second tier). I don't care that he beat our pathetically average defense last week, or that he should of beaten our even worse defense last year...in the grand scheme of things that is no accomplishment. If Flacco goes out and beats San Fran Sunday things may be different, but I'm getting tired of people putting average quarterbacks into elite company based off a couple of games. What the heck has Flacco done in his career that warrants that lofty category? In a quarterback driven league he has yet to throw for more than 4k yards in a season. He has never thrown for more than 25 touchdowns in a season - the guy has only gone over 90 in QB rating once in his career and his completion percentage is barely 60%. His offensive coordinator got fired this year....how many elite quarterbacks get their offensive coordinators fired in November? And it's not like he doesn't have an offensive line to play behind, or running game, or receivers....or a tight end. He's got a strong arm and he's not totally stupid...that's about it...above average at best.

    Well that's my opinion, maybe I'm being too harsh on Flacco?

     



    The point I'll disagree on is that Flacco didn't get his offensive coordinator fired. The offense wasn't producing and maybe Flacco being in a slump had something to do with it but more of it goes to an unimaginative coordinator who couldn't get the offense to function well and score points. 

     

    As for Flacco, it's too early in his career to call him great. He's obviously a very good QB but not one of the elite but a SB win and more good seasons and he could be in the upper echelon of the NFL but not on of the all-time greats. 

    Hetch




    I didn't mean it in the sense that he walked up the backroom stairs to the owner and complained about the coordinator, I meant it more along the lines if you're the quarterback then the exucution of the offense lies on your shoulders - you are responsible how it goes. Brady has never had an offensive coordinator get fired in the middle of a season while he was the starter...in fact he's never had a coordinator get fired at the END of the season. What usually ends up happening is the coordinator that is working with Brady ends up getting a head coaching job somewhere else and becomes filthy and undeservidly rich. I'm not saying it's all on the QB, but a large chunk has got to be.  

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    peyton has stunk in the playoffs his whole career and brady has just recently started to stink in the playoffs. brady's three rings and 5 super bowl appearances speak for themself. do i wish brady had performed better in the playoffs the last few years? absolutely, no doubt in my mind he has underperformed. but he is not even close to the playoff choker peyton is. as far as flacco goes, he knows how to win.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.




    or will he pull an eli and completely suck the year after he makes it to the super bowl?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

     

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.

    or will he pull an eli and completely suck the year after he makes it to the super bowl?

     



    ...or after he gets "paid" his $20M a year.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     

     



    I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

     

    These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

     




    i hear you and i agree but as much as i love eli i cant put him with brady peyton brees or rogers - he is not that type of qb and i dont think anything he does here on out will change that so i do put him with those guys

     

    and thats probably how it will end for  big ben probably too-i thinkhe and eli are on that 5--6 level and i do believe both will see a spot in canton and yes both have a legit shot i believe to get to and win another sb-but i still cant put either with the tope 4 guys u mention

    and flacco is not on ben or eli's level yet even of he has an MVP sb-he's got to do it longer

     



    I never said Eli was in their class. Eli is a "tier 2 guys to me"

     

    This isn't necessarily a lifetime achievement award. It's more of a, what I think theyre capable of doing. Do I think Flacco is the type of guy who can take over a team for a complete season ala Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers...no. But I think he's capable of doing just enough to get through a regular season and has the capabilities to take his game to the next level, like Big Ben or Eli. He's won at least one post season game a season and has played well in two straight post seasons. I can understand if you're not ready to put him in that class, maybe I'm just a bit looser with the first criteria.




    i know u didnt say that i acknowledged that in my op

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

     

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.

     




    or will he pull an eli and completely suck the year after he makes it to the super bowl?

     



    completely suck? ok....

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from redsoxfan94. Show redsoxfan94's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

     

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.

     




    or will he pull an eli and completely suck the year after he makes it to the super bowl?

     

     



    completely suck? ok....

     




    eli wasnt good this year, maybe not sanchez-esque, but certainly not very good. not nearly as good as he is capable of playing.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

     

    In response to agcsbill's comment:

     

    Flacco is in the debate because the media puts him there and due to recent playoff successes.  Would be interesting if he plays elite throughout a regular season.

     




    or will he pull an eli and completely suck the year after he makes it to the super bowl?

     

     



    completely suck? ok....

     

     




    eli wasnt good this year, maybe not sanchez-esque, but certainly not very good. not nearly as good as he is capable of playing.

     




    i agree but completely suck was silly

    that i expect from the queenies et al here not you

     

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