Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

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    Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    I don't know if I can agree with saying Manning and Brady are essentially the same in the playoffs. For one thing in Mannings earlier years he had more talent to work with on offense....receivers, running game. He also was playing in a dome. Brady did more with less in his early years compared to Manning and he did it in the freezing cold, snow and winds. I really can't think of any game changing picks that Brady threw in the playoffs - Manning has several - I'm not saying Brady didn't throw any picks, I'm just saying they weren't the type that made the game end right there and then. I will agree that Brady had the better coach and defense in his earlier years, but Manning had the allstars surrounding him on offense (that has to count for something).

    As for Flacco, there is no way I'm putting him into an elite category to be mentioned with Manning or Brady (Or the second tier). I don't care that he beat our pathetically average defense last week, or that he should of beaten our even worse defense last year...in the grand scheme of things that is no accomplishment. If Flacco goes out and beats San Fran Sunday things may be different, but I'm getting tired of people putting average quarterbacks into elite company based off a couple of games. What the heck has Flacco done in his career that warrants that lofty category? In a quarterback driven league he has yet to throw for more than 4k yards in a season. He has never thrown for more than 25 touchdowns in a season - the guy has only gone over 90 in QB rating once in his career and his completion percentage is barely 60%. His offensive coordinator got fired this year....how many elite quarterbacks get their offensive coordinators fired in November? And it's not like he doesn't have an offensive line to play behind, or running game, or receivers....or a tight end. He's got a strong arm and he's not totally stupid...that's about it...above average at best.

    Well that's my opinion, maybe I'm being too harsh on Flacco?

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I don't know if I can agree with saying Manning and Brady are essentially the same in the playoffs. For one thing in Mannings earlier years he had more talent to work with on offense....receivers, running game. He also was playing in a dome. Brady did more with less in his early years compared to Manning and he did it in the freezing cold, snow and winds. I really can't think of any game changing picks that Brady threw in the playoffs - Manning has several - I'm not saying Brady didn't throw any picks, I'm just saying they weren't the type that made the game end right there and then. I will agree that Brady had the better coach and defense in his earlier years, but Manning had the allstars surrounding him on offense (that has to count for something).

    As for Flacco, there is no way I'm putting him into an elite category to be mentioned with Manning or Brady (Or the second tier). I don't care that he beat our pathetically average defense last week, or that he should of beaten our even worse defense last year...in the grand scheme of things that is no accomplishment. If Flacco goes out and beats San Fran Sunday things may be different, but I'm getting tired of people putting average quarterbacks into elite company based off a couple of games. What the heck has Flacco done in his career that warrants that lofty category? In a quarterback driven league he has yet to throw for more than 4k yards in a season. He has never thrown for more than 25 touchdowns in a season - the guy has only gone over 90 in QB rating once in his career and his completion percentage is barely 60%. His offensive coordinator got fired this year....how many elite quarterbacks get their offensive coordinators fired in November? And it's not like he doesn't have an offensive line to play behind, or running game, or receivers....or a tight end. He's got a strong arm and he's not totally stupid...that's about it...above average at best.

    Well that's my opinion, maybe I'm being too harsh on Flacco?



    Nah, it's your opinion. I was a huge critic of his coming into the playoffs. I haven't put him on tier 2 yet, and I made it clear that he wasn't on the same tier as Brady. He's playing a real defense in the Super Bowl, which is why I said I'd put him in that second tier if he played well. Brady was considered elite before he put up gaudy numbers by virtue of his post season success. Don't see why the same can't be said about Flacco.

    And on the Manning thing. He was stacked with receivers and a poor defense...essentially what Brady has now. Brady hasn't won the big game with that type of set up yet.

    As for the dome factor, I've mentioned this before. I have no statistical evidence to back it up, but there can be an argument made that playing at a dome can be harmful for a team. Brady having more cold regular season games better prepares him for the cold post season games. By not having those games during the playoffs, maybe Manning is less equipped to adjust for those games during the playoffs.

    As for the game ending pick, yeah, it was bad. Brady hasn't had game changing picks. But in the end of the game, sometimes a punt can be as bad as a pick. And throwing a pick at the end of the game that costs a team a chance to win means that the team had a chance to win. In the case of this seasons playoffs, at least Manning put his team with an opportunity to win the game in the 4th quarter. Brady essentially couldn't throw a game losing pick because the team was never in a position to win. And I can't remember the situation, but I do believe Brady had a very costly pick in the '06 divisional game in which Troy Brown saved the team.

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    And maybe this post season could be too early with Flacco.

    But I've always considered Cam Cameron and incompetent coach, even before he went to Baltimore. I thought Caldwell was too, but he's done a nice job. Baltimore's oline was just okay until they realigned it.

    I agree, he's extremely inconsistent in the regular season. But he's played well in back to back post seasons. I'm willing to call him a good QB with those avg regular seasons and great postseasons just as much as I'm willing to call a QB who has great regular seasons and average post seasons good.

    He's by no means in the upper echelon. But I didn't have him in my top 15 throughout the season. He'll be in my top 10 at the end of the season barring an epic fail in the Super Bowl

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    Whether it's fair or not, most QB's are rated by their Super Bowl records.  Brady has 5 appearances and 3 wins.  Manning has only 2 and 1, so Brady is clearly far ahead of him.  5 trips to the Super Bowl and 3 wins puts Brady among the alltime best.

     
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    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    Whether it's fair or not, most QB's are rated by their Super Bowl records.  Brady has 5 appearances and 3 wins.  Manning has only 2 and 1, so Brady is clearly far ahead of him.  5 trips to the Super Bowl and 3 wins puts Brady among the alltime best.



    Well, yes. But that's a very loose way of judging QBs. Common counter argument to that is comparing Marino and Dilfer.

    When looking back, the context of the game will be loss and people will just judge by the result. For example, 20 years from now, Brady's second super bowl loss will be remembered as him failing for the second time against the Giants. In some minds, he choked that game. Contextually speaking, he went into that game with arguably the worst defense in the league.

     

    Same thing with Elway. He lost 3 Super Bowls. But he carried some bad teams. In my mind, what Brady and Elway did carrying those teams to even be in the Super Bowl was more impressive than Dilfer being carried to a Super Bowl victory. However, history will remember Dilfer as a victor in that game and Brady and Elway as losers.

     

    I'm not here to debate how they'll be looked at just by a quick glance at the results. 

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

    Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

    Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.



    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round.

     

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     



    I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

    These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Hfxsoxnut. Show Hfxsoxnut's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.



    Manning is a great QB, I'm not arguing that.  But the gap between 17 playoff wins and 9 playoff wins is pretty big.  I think Manning has defintely underachieved in the playoffs.  He's probably got more physical talent than Brady but he has failed in some big moments.

     

     
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    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

     



    Manning is a great QB, I'm not arguing that.  But the gap between 17 playoff wins and 9 playoff wins is pretty big.  I think Manning has defintely underachieved in the playoffs.  He's probably got more physical talent than Brady but he has failed in some big moments.

     

     



    Well like I mentioned earlier, I'm looking at playoff records as team success, not QB success. You can play well and get a L, and you can play horribly and get a W. Basing a QB's legacy just based off of record without taking the games into context is a poor way to compare. There's no perfect way because all the situations are different, but you can do more than just say this guy went 17-7 and that guy went 9-12. In '07, when Brady finally happened to have weapons comparable to Manning, he throws 2 TDs and 3 INTs and wins. On the otherhand, Manning throws 3 TDs and 2 INTs. He also finished with a higher Y/A and completion percentage, but he lost the game.

    I know the ultimate goal is to win the game. But this is purely about QB play. When it comes to winning a game, there are 2 other phases that a QB really has no control over.

     
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    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    I never said Brady wasn't great. He's a top 5 QB of all time. My point is that Manning isn't a big a choke as people make him out to be. He's had 8 one and dones. Yeah. 3 came in the fetal stages of his career. Michael Jordan lost in the first round in his first 3 trips to the playoffs. 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady eventually lost to. Unlucky draws that he got them in the first round. 

    Both are all time great QBs, top 10 definitely, top 5 is worthy of a debate. Just saying the gap between Brady and Manning in the playoffs isn't as significant as people make it out to be.

     



    Manning is a great QB, I'm not arguing that.  But the gap between 17 playoff wins and 9 playoff wins is pretty big.  I think Manning has defintely underachieved in the playoffs.  He's probably got more physical talent than Brady but he has failed in some big moments.

     

     



    Also, Mark Sanchez is 4-2 in the playoffs and Peyton Manning is 2-3 in that same stretch. I don't know where you would rank Manning, but you can't possibly believe Sanchez has been a better playoff QB from 09-12

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

    I would argue that you can't get to 5 Super Bowls without being a great QB.  A lot of the other stuff evens out.  Look at how the team around Brady has changed from his first SB to this year.  Look at the all the different receivers he's thrown to.  Look at the great running game he usually hasn't had.  Look at his regular season W-L record and his TD to INT numbers.  I'm not even a big Pats fan, but I've watched a lot of Pats games and I think Brady is clearly one of the great ones.  I was actually hoping the Pats would win it all this year so any arguments about him would be over. 

    Needless to say the fact the Pats haven't won it all for 8 years detracts from his record.  But 5 trips puts him with Elway and is more than even Montana.




    even if they won the arguments wouldn't be over...montana and bradshaw won 4 and montana's numbers in the SB are untouchable 4-0  11 tds  0 ints

    pats win this year means the argument is "all over"? not hardly

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to Hfxsoxnut's comment:

     

    Whether it's fair or not, most QB's are rated by their Super Bowl records.  Brady has 5 appearances and 3 wins.  Manning has only 2 and 1, so Brady is clearly far ahead of him.  5 trips to the Super Bowl and 3 wins puts Brady among the alltime best.

     



    Well, yes. But that's a very loose way of judging QBs. Common counter argument to that is comparing Marino and Dilfer.

     

    When looking back, the context of the game will be loss and people will just judge by the result. For example, 20 years from now, Brady's second super bowl loss will be remembered as him failing for the second time against the Giants. In some minds, he choked that game. Contextually speaking, he went into that game with arguably the worst defense in the league.

     

    Same thing with Elway. He lost 3 Super Bowls. But he carried some bad teams. In my mind, what Brady and Elway did carrying those teams to even be in the Super Bowl was more impressive than Dilfer being carried to a Super Bowl victory. However, history will remember Dilfer as a victor in that game and Brady and Elway as losers.

     

    I'm not here to debate how they'll be looked at just by a quick glance at the results. 

     



    ur point involving dilfer is ridiculous-no one but no one will ever put dilfer in the same universe as elway and brady concerning anything, including the sb...everybody knows dilfer got there one time and really because of an incredibe D one of the 3-4 best ever

     

    u will not find one rational football fan to say "dilfer won his sb and brady and elway lost some of theirs" - no way and that goes for staubach and tarkenton and kelly who all lost more than one-no one would put dilfer in the same breath with those guys

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     

     



    I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

     

    These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

     



    i dont fully buy that goodell era/inflated numbers thing to a great extent-to be honest this idea that D's were so tough and the smashed the QB around and hit, etc...back when and  werre allowed so much more freedom etc than today is really overstated and very much a soundbyte it wasn;t the wild west peopleand old timers like to carp about-as a collector of old games on dvd regular season and post season-i just watched the 1946 NFLCG last week and a regular season Dallas-Oakland game from 1974 last night i can tell you the idea of how much rougher and tougher the game was and all the big hitting and how they let guys mug the receivers and how they went after the QB  blah blah  blah is a helluva lot more myth than reality-a lot-there was a PI in the 1974 game on Jack Tatum of the raiders that looked just like one of today's-just reached out and did a tuck and grab and flag comes out

     

    and while the rules clearly favor the Offense today by far-far too much i agree-it's also true that the schemes and types of D's QBs face the last 10+ years are a lot more complex and numerous than back when

    Johnny U once admitted back a few years that when he played he might see 3-4 different D's a game and that QB's now might see that in one quarter, maybe less

    the point is while i dont compare eras as much as possible and that things evolve it all seems to even out

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     

     



    I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

     

    These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that




    i hear you and i agree but as much as i love eli i cant put him with brady peyton brees or rogers - he is not that type of qb and i dont think anything he does here on out will change that so i do put him with those guys

    and thats probably how it will end for  big ben probably too-i thinkhe and eli are on that 5--6 level and i do believe both will see a spot in canton and yes both have a legit shot i believe to get to and win another sb-but i still cant put either with the tope 4 guys u mention

    and flacco is not on ben or eli's level yet even of he has an MVP sb-he's got to do it longer

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    You're right that Flacco is moving into that second tier if he plays well on Sunday, win or lose - especially win. 

    You're wrong that quarterbacks aren't judged by Super Bowl wins. Marino is considered a less QB because he didn't win one. Manning (Peyton) helped to solidify his legacy when he did win one. I know you think it's simplistic but some things are simple. Elway's two Super Bowl wins late in his career did a lot for his legacy...

    Peyton has exited the playoffs in the first round 9 out of 12 times. He's just not that great in the postseason, and I don't mean compared to Brady, I mean compared to anybody who has played a bunch of post season games. There is also the eye test. I have seen Peyton throw loss-clinching interceptions more than once, including this year. I have also seen Brady walk off the field in the Superbowl and all his team had to do was make a stop and the game is over, he wins. Can you imagine how silly your argument would be if Brady had won those two games and was 5-0 in Super Bowls? Obviously he could have played better in those two games but he did leave his team with a lead and that's something Peyton has not been able to do consisently. 

    Look, Peyton is an all time great as well and his career isn't over. Neither is Brady's. 

    Where it gets confusing is when you look at regular season....Manning is clearly one of the best, if not the best, regular season quarterback. Certainly of this generation. But I'd rather have his brother in a big game. 

    I see Brady as a top five all time QB, in the modern era I have him about third myself but a major step below Montana and Elway. You can toss around Aikman and Bradshaw, I'd put Brady a bit ahead of them. However for me it's hard to see him overtaking Montana now, though I could see him overtaking Elway in my own subjective rankings if he can get to another Super Bowl....

    (I don't take into account Starr, Unitas, Otto, Baugh....I just don't know how to assess them, seems to me they would all have been great in today's game but I don't know how to rank it). 

    To me Peyton is top ten all time but maybe closer to ten than one. I have him right around Brett Favre but I could see him passing Favre by the time his career is over. I have Marino right around the same area, maybe Aikman, Bradshaw. That's fine company to be in, and Peyton isn't done yet. But he still has some things to prove to me in the postseason if he wants to climb higher. I have a hard time imagining him passing Brady in my rankings but if Brady never makes it back to the Super Bowl and Peyton makes it to two more and wins one then I'd have to take another look. On the other hand Big Ben, if he even gets to another Super Bowl he starts to get in that convo also. 

    I don't have a problem with your opinion even though I differ strongly but I do have a problem with you dismissing anyone who puts Brady over Manning all time as a homer. C'mon, that's childish. Depends on their argument. For example I used to have Brady neck and neck with Montana but I had to downgrade him in recent years. These things happen, no homer issues here. If I was a homer I'd be pushing Bledsoe.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    You're right that Flacco is moving into that second tier if he plays well on Sunday, win or lose - especially win. 

    You're wrong that quarterbacks aren't judged by Super Bowl wins. Marino is considered a less QB because he didn't win one. Manning (Peyton) helped to solidify his legacy when he did win one. I know you think it's simplistic but some things are simple. Elway's two Super Bowl wins late in his career did a lot for his legacy...

    Peyton has exited the playoffs in the first round 9 out of 12 times. He's just not that great in the postseason, and I don't mean compared to Brady, I mean compared to anybody who has played a bunch of post season games. There is also the eye test. I have seen Peyton throw loss-clinching interceptions more than once, including this year. I have also seen Brady walk off the field in the Superbowl and all his team had to do was make a stop and the game is over, he wins. Can you imagine how silly your argument would be if Brady had won those two games and was 5-0 in Super Bowls? Obviously he could have played better in those two games but he did leave his team with a lead and that's something Peyton has not been able to do consisently. 

    Look, Peyton is an all time great as well and his career isn't over. Neither is Brady's. 

    Where it gets confusing is when you look at regular season....Manning is clearly one of the best, if not the best, regular season quarterback. Certainly of this generation. But I'd rather have his brother in a big game. 

    I see Brady as a top five all time QB, in the modern era I have him about third myself but a major step below Montana and Elway. You can toss around Aikman and Bradshaw, I'd put Brady a bit ahead of them. However for me it's hard to see him overtaking Montana now, though I could see him overtaking Elway in my own subjective rankings if he can get to another Super Bowl....

    (I don't take into account Starr, Unitas, Otto, Baugh....I just don't know how to assess them, seems to me they would all have been great in today's game but I don't know how to rank it). 

    To me Peyton is top ten all time but maybe closer to ten than one. I have him right around Brett Favre but I could see him passing Favre by the time his career is over. I have Marino right around the same area, maybe Aikman, Bradshaw. That's fine company to be in, and Peyton isn't done yet. But he still has some things to prove to me in the postseason if he wants to climb higher. I have a hard time imagining him passing Brady in my rankings but if Brady never makes it back to the Super Bowl and Peyton makes it to two more and wins one then I'd have to take another look. On the other hand Big Ben, if he even gets to another Super Bowl he starts to get in that convo also. 

    I don't have a problem with your opinion even though I differ strongly but I do have a problem with you dismissing anyone who puts Brady over Manning all time as a homer. C'mon, that's childish. Depends on their argument. For example I used to have Brady neck and neck with Montana but I had to downgrade him in recent years. These things happen, no homer issues here. If I was a homer I'd be pushing Bledsoe.



    dont put favre and peyton in the same sentence thats how much better peyton manning is than brett favre-now thats is anti-manning bias from a pats fan

    peyton manning is the greatest regular season qb who has possibly ever played

    and brady a "major"step below montana and elway? no way-and i wouldnt put elway with montana either

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

     

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     

    In my opinion, Brady and Peyton aren't that different in the playoffs and Flacco is a good QB.

    First, with Brady and Peyton:

    Both are great QBs. But for some reason, everytime Peyton loses in the playoffs he's labeled as a choke, and every time Brady loses, people always take things into context (Well this guy dropped this pass, or that defense couldn't get stops, etc). I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

    Mannings last 4 one and done's:

    Ravens, well they went on to beat the Patriots. Manning through the game losing pick, but at least he put the position in a great chance to win the game in the 4th quarter. Can't say the same about Brady.

    Jets, Brady ended up losing to them too. Can argue who played better. Manning had a higher rating and QBR (Brady had an 9.8), take that how you want. Neither played great

    Chargers, Brady actually won the game, but Manning played better and scored more points. Volek finished the game to beat the Colts while the Pats beat Rivers who was playing on a torn ACL.

    Steelers, Brady didn't play them in the playoffs but he beat them in the regular season. Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl (even if there was some health from the refs). But they were a legitimate team.

    Chargers in '08 was bad as they were an 8-8 team.

    The early parts of their playoff careers is what will largely define them. I'm not going to say Manning would have won three Super Bowls with the Pats, because that may not be true, but Brady did drop into a better situation. Entire careers are important to judge. Players are most critically judged not by their play when they're first coming into the league or when they're old and on their way out but during their prime years. Brady and Peyton's playoff success during their prime years is largely similar. Manning has thrown a game losing INT in the Super Bowl which is super unclutch. But in last years Super Bowl, Brady had the lead in the fourth quarter and had two drives to win the game. One ended in an INT, the other in a punt (I won't count the desperation drive). Brady has 3 rings to Mannings 1 and that's what you play for. But Super Bowls are team achievements, not just QB. I still like Brady more than Manning, but I wouldn't say he's out of his league.

     

     

    As with Flacco. I think he's good, I have to admit. For those who haven't seen my other posts, Flacco is my least QB in the league. He's played very well in his last two post seasons. Has he outplayed Brady? Contextually speaking, they play against different defenses, one is pretty good with veteran leadership and the other one is made of swiss cheese. However, if you believe Brady outplayed Manning in the '03 and '04 playoffs, then you have to argue Flacco outplayed Brady. If Flacco plays well Sun (win or lose) then I think he deserves a spot in the same tier of QBs as Eli Manning and Big Ben. IMO. He's inconsistent, but he makes up for that by coming up big in big moments.

    Tier 1: Brady, Brees, Rodgers, P. Manning

    Tier 2: Big Ben, Eli

     

     

    I'm open to hearing counter arguments! But please, be as objective as you can. I'm sure I'll get bashed by some people but whatever. I'm willing to change my stances if I hear valid arguments. I'm not the type of person that ignores arguments that prove me wrong.

     

    Also, before people starting sarcastically saying, "Yeah, let's totally trade Brady for Alex Smith". I never said Brady sucks, I said he's a top 3 QB. Just saying he doesn't play significantly better than Manning in the playoffs.

     

     



    all fair an ur tier rankings are about how i have it too but to be fair when the other greats-bradshaw, staubach, aikman, griese, elway (later) even montana, etc...had bad/off days in the post season or during the season they had better, more clutch defenses that bailed them out, something that tom brady has not had in a while and i am not sure peyton ever really had either

     

     



    I'm not going to bother ranking all timers just because it's extremely difficult ranking across eras.

     

    These rankings are purely based off of right now. Brady, Manning and Brees are at the ends of their careers while guys like Eli, Rodgers and Flacco are entering/in their primes. Only way you can truly rank is when their careers are over and you look at their body of work. Even then, the Goodell era has inflated numbers for QBs...might not even be fair to rank career achievement because of that

     




    i hear you and i agree but as much as i love eli i cant put him with brady peyton brees or rogers - he is not that type of qb and i dont think anything he does here on out will change that so i do put him with those guys

     

    and thats probably how it will end for  big ben probably too-i thinkhe and eli are on that 5--6 level and i do believe both will see a spot in canton and yes both have a legit shot i believe to get to and win another sb-but i still cant put either with the tope 4 guys u mention

    and flacco is not on ben or eli's level yet even of he has an MVP sb-he's got to do it longer



    I never said Eli was in their class. Eli is a "tier 2 guys to me"

    This isn't necessarily a lifetime achievement award. It's more of a, what I think theyre capable of doing. Do I think Flacco is the type of guy who can take over a team for a complete season ala Brady, Manning, Brees and Rodgers...no. But I think he's capable of doing just enough to get through a regular season and has the capabilities to take his game to the next level, like Big Ben or Eli. He's won at least one post season game a season and has played well in two straight post seasons. I can understand if you're not ready to put him in that class, maybe I'm just a bit looser with the first criteria.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

    You're right that Flacco is moving into that second tier if he plays well on Sunday, win or lose - especially win. 

    You're wrong that quarterbacks aren't judged by Super Bowl wins. Marino is considered a less QB because he didn't win one. Manning (Peyton) helped to solidify his legacy when he did win one. I know you think it's simplistic but some things are simple. Elway's two Super Bowl wins late in his career did a lot for his legacy...

    Peyton has exited the playoffs in the first round 9 out of 12 times. He's just not that great in the postseason, and I don't mean compared to Brady, I mean compared to anybody who has played a bunch of post season games. There is also the eye test. I have seen Peyton throw loss-clinching interceptions more than once, including this year. I have also seen Brady walk off the field in the Superbowl and all his team had to do was make a stop and the game is over, he wins. Can you imagine how silly your argument would be if Brady had won those two games and was 5-0 in Super Bowls? Obviously he could have played better in those two games but he did leave his team with a lead and that's something Peyton has not been able to do consisently. 

    Look, Peyton is an all time great as well and his career isn't over. Neither is Brady's. 

    Where it gets confusing is when you look at regular season....Manning is clearly one of the best, if not the best, regular season quarterback. Certainly of this generation. But I'd rather have his brother in a big game. 

    I see Brady as a top five all time QB, in the modern era I have him about third myself but a major step below Montana and Elway. You can toss around Aikman and Bradshaw, I'd put Brady a bit ahead of them. However for me it's hard to see him overtaking Montana now, though I could see him overtaking Elway in my own subjective rankings if he can get to another Super Bowl....

    (I don't take into account Starr, Unitas, Otto, Baugh....I just don't know how to assess them, seems to me they would all have been great in today's game but I don't know how to rank it). 

    To me Peyton is top ten all time but maybe closer to ten than one. I have him right around Brett Favre but I could see him passing Favre by the time his career is over. I have Marino right around the same area, maybe Aikman, Bradshaw. That's fine company to be in, and Peyton isn't done yet. But he still has some things to prove to me in the postseason if he wants to climb higher. I have a hard time imagining him passing Brady in my rankings but if Brady never makes it back to the Super Bowl and Peyton makes it to two more and wins one then I'd have to take another look. On the other hand Big Ben, if he even gets to another Super Bowl he starts to get in that convo also. 

    I don't have a problem with your opinion even though I differ strongly but I do have a problem with you dismissing anyone who puts Brady over Manning all time as a homer. C'mon, that's childish. Depends on their argument. For example I used to have Brady neck and neck with Montana but I had to downgrade him in recent years. These things happen, no homer issues here. If I was a homer I'd be pushing Bledsoe.



    1. I said I thought Brady was better than Manning. I just said playoffwise, the gap isn't as large as its perceived.

    2. Peyton has kept his team within a touchdown, going into the fourth quarter in every game since 2004. In that same span, Brady-led teams have been blown out by the Ravens twice and the Jets in 2010 (I know what the final score was but I remember that game and the last TD was in garbage time)

    3. There is also such a thin line between winning and losing. I've seen Brady throw a game-losing interception only for Troy Brown to save him with a strip. I would argue, that one of Manning's worst post season runs, happened to be the one he won a Super Bowl in. (3TDs : 7 INTs). So obviously, just saying he went 4-0 in that run isn't telling the whole story.

    4. My point is this. Outside of the '06 run, an average game from Manning resulted in a loss. Brady has won plenty of playoff games having an average to below average game. I think the last 5 years, the Patriots have resembled what Manning's colts were (High powered offense with a suspect defense). And the results have largely been similar.

     

    My comment on homerism is mainly about this. People's explanation for some of Brady's post season struggles as of late is because there's too much pressure for him to be perfect. But when Manning is in that same situation, it's, "Oh he just chokes". Manning has arguably had a smaller margin for error throughout his whole career. Vanderjagt misses an easy field goal indoors in '05. Vinatieri makes the greatest kick of all time in '01. Brady goes down against the Steelers, but luckily for us we had Bledsoe at backup and Troy Brown had one of his best games. Manning struggled with a great offense against the Pats in '03 and '04 in the same way Brady struggles against the Ravens. However, in those games, Manning struggled on the road while Brady struggled at home. Brady was 1-1 in those games, but he was a half second of Evans holding onto that ball from being 0-2.

    Not all playoff records are considered equal. They played against different teams. As I pointed out earlier, 3 of Mannings last 4 one and dones came against teams that Brady played terribly against. You can talk about how Manning threw a game-clinching INT against the Ravens, but I don't think you can argue Brady played better than Manning. Manning accounted for 21 points where as Brady had 13.

     

    I also don't believe I ever said people don't judge QB's by Super Bowls. I said it shouldn't be an end all be all. A great team will beat a great QB almost every time. That and a little bit of luck.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

     


    dont put favre and peyton in the same sentence thats how much better peyton manning is than brett favre-now thats is anti-manning bias from a pats fan

     

    peyton manning is the greatest regular season qb who has possibly ever played

    and brady a "major"step below montana and elway? no way-and i wouldnt put elway with montana either



    In my eyes, I have Montana and Elway pretty close, with Montana getting the edge because of his Super Bowl play. And this is where I feel like the pre-Free Agency hurt some players. If I remember correctly, Denver had a pretty bad defense in those years. Hard to fix a defense other than drafting well or pulling off trades...Whereas Montana was able to play with one of the greatest rosters of all time throughout his career.

    It would be like this:

    Imagine if Rodgers was placed on this SF team and Brady was stuck with the 2011 Patriots team. You have them play 10 seasons and I can almost guarantee you Rodgers will win at least 3 more rings than Brady. Not because Rodgers is so much better, but because he's on a far superior team. In fact, I don't even know if the 2011 Pats would be a fair. I honestly don't remember too many of his offensive skill players during those Super Bowl losses

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    If you're a homer fan who is to bias to be objective, this probably won't be an effective debate for you to partake in.

     I get one is 9-12 in the playoffs and the other is 17-7...but those are team records, not solely QB records.

     



    Yeah genius, because somebody has to be a homer and completely lack objectivity to think a 9-12 vs a 17-7 record in the playoffs has any bearing on the worth of a guy who plays by far the most important role on a football team.

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Peyton, Brady, Flacco Debate

    In response to dapats1281's comment:



    In my eyes, I have Montana and Elway pretty close,

     


    Get your eyes checked.

    Better yet, just start checking the box that says "blind" on your Income Tax forms.

     
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