Notice: All Boston.com forums will be retired as of May 31st, 2016 and will not be archived. Thank you for your participation in this community, and we hope you continue to enjoy other content at Boston.com.

Physical Beats Finesse

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

     

    The Pats O line is always a good one because it is so well coached and because some of the players are very talented.  But is has always had holes in talent that could be exploited.  It seems like every line the Pats put together has a weak link somewhere, and the best defensive fronts tend to find that weak link and break it.  Right tackle was a problem for many years, until Vollmer came along.  Now, the interior line (center and right guard) are lacking.  Brady is good at getting rid of the ball quickly, which hides some of the O line's weaknesses, and good TE play also helps protect the O line in both the passing and running games.  But I think the O line is a bit over-rated--it's not a bad line by any means, but it's not quite as good as the stats sometimes suggest.  Coaching, Brady's talents, and good TE play tend to make the O line look a bit better than it really is.  Again, I'm not saying the O line is a bad one--it isn't that--it's just that it's not quite as good as some people think and as the stats might suggest.  

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    Anyone else notice that the current Patriots don’t match up well against physical teams? More specifically, when opposing teams can get to Brady – the offensive performance  suffers.

    This has been going on since about 2007. BB himself has stated that they were also out-coached during many of these types of games.

    So, why hasn’t BB and McD figured out a solution? Haven’t they been learning from being outcoached?

     

     


    Yes, I have certainly noticed. I do believe that BB and staff have noticed if we have. I think they are absolutely working on the solution and it likely includes a more robust ground game, more diverse offensive "run" sets, and a sprinkling of the QB you would rather me not refer to, ANON....

     

    Wink

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to Inokea4coolaid's comment:

    Of course.  The Patriots are a great finesse team. The finesse team was built by  the great BB. Nothing wrong with it.  They will win their share of games over average and below average teams and a few good teams. Their Kryptonite are physical teams that can get to Brady in one fashion or other. Not Brady's fault - as that would be true for any QB who is getting manhandled and gets it up dabutt.




    completely true of course but don't tell ol Russ....I don't care who you are: Brady, Peyton, Unitas, Montana. Kelly-pick ur choice. If ur a Young or Tarkenton or Vick or one of the new breed that can escape and run away it's one thing but ur drop back and throw guys have no shot if they are constantly being sacked, hit after throwing and forced to flee. Even Tarkenton, the original scrambler, was overwhelmed against that Steelers D in that SB. In fact I know many fans who came out of SB42 with a helluva lot more respect for Brady because of the beating he took and still got back up and still kept standing in there and yes, Russ, left the filed after driving his team to a lead late. They saw he could take a beating and keep going.

    God forbid tho the opponent gets any credit from SOME people

     
  4. This post has been removed.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    Sorry guys...physical line play wins games...you have to be in better shape, quicker, but most of all, tougher than the guys playing opposite you...size of lines are the same on almost every team now....if you have the same relative athletic ability as your opponent, and they all do now, and your strength level is pretty much equal, and they are now with but a few exceptions, then it's the toughness and desire to smack the other guy harder that decides games...go ask the Pats front lines why the Ravens pounded them last year or why the Lions beat them this week.....it was pretty obvious....and the Giants beat the snot out of our O Line when it counted in both SB losses.....the tape don't lie...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    Anyone else notice that the current Patriots don’t match up well against physical teams? More specifically, when opposing teams can get to Brady – the offensive performance  suffers.

    This has been going on since about 2007. BB himself has stated that they were also out-coached during many of these types of games.

    So, why hasn’t BB and McD figured out a solution? Haven’t they been learning from being outcoached?

     

     


    Yes, I have certainly noticed. I do believe that BB and staff have noticed if we have. I think they are absolutely working on the solution and it likely includes a more robust ground game, more diverse offensive "run" sets, and a sprinkling of the QB you would rather me not refer to, ANON....

     

    Wink

     



    Haha Rally.  It's great to see a poster with a sense of humor.  What your implying in not so subtle a manner is that Tebow would get signficant play time in a game like the one just played vs. Detroit.

     

    So, here's a situation for you. The Patriots are playing in a conference championship or SB game against the Ravens or 49ers - and they're getting to Brady early in the game. Would BB seriously put in Tebow for the rest of the game? I hope not.....lol (especially since our defense is simply not a shut down defense - Noone fears this defense)

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from RallyC. Show RallyC's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    Anyone else notice that the current Patriots don’t match up well against physical teams? More specifically, when opposing teams can get to Brady – the offensive performance  suffers.

    This has been going on since about 2007. BB himself has stated that they were also out-coached during many of these types of games.

    So, why hasn’t BB and McD figured out a solution? Haven’t they been learning from being outcoached?

     

     


    Yes, I have certainly noticed. I do believe that BB and staff have noticed if we have. I think they are absolutely working on the solution and it likely includes a more robust ground game, more diverse offensive "run" sets, and a sprinkling of the QB you would rather me not refer to, ANON....

     

    Wink

     



    Haha Rally.  It's great to see a poster with a sense of humor.  What your implying in not so subtle a manner is that Tebow would get signficant play time in a game like the one just played vs. Detroit.

     

    So, here's a situation for you. The Patriots are playing in a conference championship or SB game against the Ravens or 49ers - and they're getting to Brady early in the game. Would BB seriously put in Tebow for the rest of the game? I hope not.....lol (especially since our defense is simply not a shut down defense - Noone fears this defense)

     


    Preferrably, we use him ONLYif we had a sizeable lead of say 14+ pts. But, REMEMBER, you said, "against the Ravens or 49ers - and they're getting to Brady early in the game". If you are saying that it looks like Tom is getting hit everyother play that he drops back and we've tried to slow them down with a conventional running attack, and we've exhausted the use of our screen packages and it isn't slowing them down, then SURE! I could see it as a counter to attempt to slow the D down. Then the intent would be to let TT grind the clock and shorten the game, wear down the very active D-line and LBs by running relentlessly at them, and keep the throws down to a minimum to reduce risk of losing the ball. Then rotate Tim in on a series here and there to take the energy/edge off of their rushers, keep them off balance, reduce the risk of hits on TB12. AGAIN, we only want to use Tim with a sizeable lead where it would make sense instead of Ryan handing it off to a RB into the line. Tim brings a realistic chance for us to add a legit runner to the backfield and power run the ball. WE WILL SEE IT! Assuming I am right that he makes the team! 

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

     


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     



    That's right. There's no such thing as finesse football. The teams I played on (in the Jurassic era) didn't sniff a state title, we were mostly about .500. Congrats to you nyjetssuc. But everybody pretty much played their tails off and hit as hard as they could and all of that. Some other teams were just bigger, stronger, better. Nobody was finessing anybody. It's blocking and tackling. How do you finesse that?

     

    I really don't think the Patriots lose games because they don't match up well with "physical" teams. If they're on their game, they match up well against everybody.  Are the Patriots more physical than Houston? Denver? All the other teams they've beaten the last few years with some regularity? 

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to RallyC's comment:

     


    Preferrably, we use him ONLYif we had a sizeable lead of say 14+ pts. But, REMEMBER, you said, "against the Ravens or 49ers - and they're getting to Brady early in the game". If you are saying that it looks like Tom is getting hit everyother play that he drops back and we've tried to slow them down with a conventional running attack, and we've exhausted the use of our screen packages and it isn't slowing them down, then SURE! I could see it as a counter to attempt to slow the D down. Then the intent would be to let TT grind the clock and shorten the game, wear down the very active D-line and LBs by running relentlessly at them, and keep the throws down to a minimum to reduce risk of losing the ball. Then rotate Tim in on a series here and there to take the energy/edge off of their rushers, keep them off balance, reduce the risk of hits on TB12. AGAIN, we only want to use Tim with a sizeable lead where it would make sense instead of Ryan handing it off to a RB into the line. Tim brings a realistic chance for us to add a legit runner to the backfield and power run the ball. WE WILL SEE IT! Assuming I am right that he makes the team! 

     



    that'd be great...except one problem.  Tebow is a one dimensional QB, he's an above average runner for a QB.  He can occasionally make a phenominal running play when a broken pass play occurs and he's flushed out of the pocket. But for every one of those kinds of plays - you get a whole bunch where he's tackled for a loss...sometimes as much as a 20 yard loss because he doesn't have the witheral of throwing out of bounds.

    I am assuming he makes this team too, but I'm pretty sure it's not because he's a good QB

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

     


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     



    That's right. There's no such thing as finesse football. The teams I played on (in the Jurassic era) didn't sniff a state title, we were mostly about .500. Congrats to you nyjetssuc. But everybody pretty much played their tails off and hit as hard as they could and all of that. Some other teams were just bigger, stronger, better. Nobody was finessing anybody. It's blocking and tackling. How do you finesse that?

     

    I really don't think the Patriots lose games because they don't match up well with "physical" teams. If they're on their game, they match up well against everybody.  Are the Patriots more physical than Houston? Denver? All the other teams they've beaten the last few years with some regularity? 

     



    okay, so what's with losing to teams like the Giants x2, Ravens, 49ers. Why have those teams been successful in getting to Brady/disrupting the QB?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

     


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     



    That's right. There's no such thing as finesse football. The teams I played on (in the Jurassic era) didn't sniff a state title, we were mostly about .500. Congrats to you nyjetssuc. But everybody pretty much played their tails off and hit as hard as they could and all of that. Some other teams were just bigger, stronger, better. Nobody was finessing anybody. It's blocking and tackling. How do you finesse that?

     

    I really don't think the Patriots lose games because they don't match up well with "physical" teams. If they're on their game, they match up well against everybody.  Are the Patriots more physical than Houston? Denver? All the other teams they've beaten the last few years with some regularity? 

     

     



    okay, so what's with losing to teams like the Giants x2, Ravens, 49ers. Why have those teams been successful in getting to Brady/disrupting the QB?

     




    I'd say it was better scheming and just plain poor matchups.....and wanting it more...last year the Ravens just plain wanted to kick our butts after their choke (their kickers choke) the year before...the Giants had precisely the right positions and schemes to beat us...2 times!... also bad secondary play killed us both times....and don't ever say that the two brothers don't compare notes...you know they do...whatever worked for the 49res vs. us would be used by the Ravens and vice versa.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

     


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     



    That's right. There's no such thing as finesse football. The teams I played on (in the Jurassic era) didn't sniff a state title, we were mostly about .500. Congrats to you nyjetssuc. But everybody pretty much played their tails off and hit as hard as they could and all of that. Some other teams were just bigger, stronger, better. Nobody was finessing anybody. It's blocking and tackling. How do you finesse that?

     

    I really don't think the Patriots lose games because they don't match up well with "physical" teams. If they're on their game, they match up well against everybody.  Are the Patriots more physical than Houston? Denver? All the other teams they've beaten the last few years with some regularity? 

     



    I am also a jurassic warrior...lol...I still smell the dirt from my first face full of grass drills every year about this time of year...it never goes away.....

    I think it's matchups and scheme...who disects the other team the best...who wants it more...and just plain weaknesses being exposed...like pizz poor def. backfield play (ahem)...

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

    I'd say it was better scheming and just plain poor matchups.....and wanting it more...last year the Ravens just plain wanted to kick our butts after their choke (their kickers choke) the year before...the Giants had precisely the right positions and schemes to beat us...2 times!... also bad secondary play killed us both times....and don't ever say that the two brothers don't compare notes...you know they do...whatever worked for the 49res vs. us would be used by the Ravens and vice versa.

    so, if part of it is schemes....did BB fail to learn from the regular season win vs. Giants in 2007, or the first SB loss vs. Giant....only to lose a second time in the SB vs. Giants in 2011?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Styles make fights. Was Ali more physical than Foreman? Was Leonard more physical than anybody?

    It's skill, speed, want to, motivation, discipline, hard work, youth, luck, favorable calls, weather, coaching decisions and a dozen other factors.

    They lost one game to the Giants by sheer fluke, the other because they failed to execute a relatively simple pass play. It's not as if they got shellacked.

    I know it's hard to believe, but their record against the Ravens is actually not bad, 1-2 in the PS unfortunately.

    Give them a healthy Gronk and maybe the results, at least against the NYG, are different.

    They played one game against SF in recent memory. And they reeled off 28 unanswered points, moved the ball at will against a "physical" defense (500+ yards as I recall), but fell a little short. Not sure what conclusions you can draw from that? 

    With a little more luck Brady would have 5 rings, and anybody complaining would look silly. I thnk they do now, but that's me.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Styles make fights. Was Ali more physical than Foreman? Was Leonard more physical than anybody?

    It's skill, speed, want to, motivation, discipline, hard work, youth, luck, favorable calls, weather, coaching decisions and a dozen other factors.

    They lost one game to the Giants by sheer fluke, the other because they failed to execute a relatively simple pass play. It's not as if they got shellacked.

    I know it's hard to believe, but their record against the Ravens is actually not bad, 1-2 in the PS unfortunately.

    Give them a healthy Gronk and maybe the results, at least against the NYG, are different.

    They played one game against SF in recent memory. And they reeled off 28 unanswered points, moved the ball at will against a "physical" defense (500+ yards as I recall), but fell a little short. Not sure what conclusions you can draw from that? 

    With a little more luck Brady would have 5 rings, and anybody complaining would look silly. I thnk they do now, but that's me.

     




    They lost one game to the Giants by sheer fluke

     

    nah they lost because Brady spent the whole game running or on his a** and ur def folded like a cheap suit when it counted

    and if the Rams had a real head coach not a glorified OC and jon kasey didn't forget how to kick off you might have 1 ring

    gotta be fair Woz

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Just checking in, it seemed like a good thread - of course rather large sections are tainted due to a  person that claims to know football, but doesn't realize Curtis Martin caught footballs...

    I'll say this about a big, physical offensive line...they are hard to build. You can spend years trying to do it...spend high picks on guys, etc, but what you may end up with is a middle of your line that can "smash mouth", but can't pass protect. Can't win like that. What I hope for is guys that can pass protect...that develop into serviceable run blockers. Don't get me wrong, I'd take a 90's Cowboys offensive line that blew holes open against everybody, but realistically that is not going to happen.

    Honestly I'm still surprised we spent as much as we did on a guard, in my opinion you can't do that unless the guy is so good he reinvents the position, but at least the guy is a good player. 

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

    In response to anonymis' comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

     

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:

     


    BTW...I played on both Off and Def lines in HS...two way player for Spoh, Jr. and Sr. years on a team that won the state title for our division 2 out of 3 years there...we were always the smallest team, and only lost 2 games in those 3 years...and I NEVER recall any team playing finesse football, whatever that really means.....it doesn't seem like finesse when your playing hard...it just feels like hard work...

     



    That's right. There's no such thing as finesse football. The teams I played on (in the Jurassic era) didn't sniff a state title, we were mostly about .500. Congrats to you nyjetssuc. But everybody pretty much played their tails off and hit as hard as they could and all of that. Some other teams were just bigger, stronger, better. Nobody was finessing anybody. It's blocking and tackling. How do you finesse that?

     

    I really don't think the Patriots lose games because they don't match up well with "physical" teams. If they're on their game, they match up well against everybody.  Are the Patriots more physical than Houston? Denver? All the other teams they've beaten the last few years with some regularity? 

     

     

     



    okay, so what's with losing to teams like the Giants x2, Ravens, 49ers. Why have those teams been successful in getting to Brady/disrupting the QB?

     

     

     




    I'd say it was better scheming and just plain poor matchups.....and wanting it more...last year the Ravens just plain wanted to kick our butts after their choke (their kickers choke) the year before...the Giants had precisely the right positions and schemes to beat us...2 times!... also bad secondary play killed us both times....and don't ever say that the two brothers don't compare notes...you know they do...whatever worked for the 49res vs. us would be used by the Ravens and vice versa.

     



    Same with Eli and PeytonPeyton

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:


    Sorry guys...physical line play wins games...you have to be in better shape, quicker, but most of all, tougher than the guys playing opposite you...size of lines are the same on almost every team now....if you have the same relative athletic ability as your opponent, and they all do now, and your strength level is pretty much equal, and they are now with but a few exceptions, then it's the toughness and desire to smack the other guy harder that decides games...go ask the Pats front lines why the Ravens pounded them last year or why the Lions beat them this week.....it was pretty obvious....and the Giants beat the snot out of our O Line when it counted in both SB losses.....the tape don't lie...



    I was thinkthis about this too, I don't know if I were on the sidelines of any nfl game would I think anything is finesse

     

    It cant be all size. , someone like Spikes seems to come hard and fast and maul players I think when we see TB get mauled, which we don't see too often it looks like the other team is more physical

    detroits line is big and seemed to fill holes just standing there

    Giantscame with such ferooicty

    in 42 they took RM out and beat up on ww, still, as I repeat myself , i blameAS for that loss, we would have then said how it was a war and our heroes were all terriffic, bb goes down as the clear best coach of all time and TB takes the mantel of the all time greates Qb from JM and Peyton is an after thought    and TB wasnt even on the field to lose this status and of course the helmet catch evened out all the breaks we got that year 

     

    Sorry to repeat myself, once the season starts I will only live in this season

     

     

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    It's more accurate to say that physical teams can beat the Patriots when the Patriots' linemen are injured and slowed.  This has happened several times in the last few years. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mississippipatfan. Show mississippipatfan's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    Same thing happen in 2010 preseason.  The ones that counts was regular season.  I think we beat them 45 -24.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    It's more accurate to say that physical teams can beat the Patriots when the Patriots' linemen are injured and slowed.  This has happened several times in the last few years. 



    I don't remember. Who was injured during 2007 and 2011 SBs, and last year's games vs. 49ers and Ravens?

     
Sections
Shortcuts