Physical Beats Finesse

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    Physical Beats Finesse

    Anyone else notice that the current Patriots don’t match up well against physical teams? More specifically, when opposing teams can get to Brady – the offensive performance  suffers.

    This has been going on since about 2007. BB himself has stated that they were also out-coached during many of these types of games.

    So, why hasn’t BB and McD figured out a solution? Haven’t they been learning from being outcoached?

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    I dont think it is being outcoached...this is a top 3 OL so they are doing something right!

    Only a truly elite OL can handle both finesse and power. Wendell and Connolly are not elite. ALso, Vollmer did not have his best game last night...

    I do think that the coaching staff sees the same thing we all see, and Cannon may be the answer against teams such as the Lions.

    I also think that the decision on Devlin may come down to what we saw last night...QB protection against a physical line, and Blount top toeing at the goal line.

    The nxt 7-10 days are going to be interesting 

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to rkarp's comment:


    I dont think it is being outcoached...this is a top 3 OL so they are doing something right!

    Only a truly elite OL can handle both finesse and power. Wendell and Connolly are not elite. ALso, Vollmer did not have his best game last night...

    I do think that the coaching staff sees the same thing we all see, and Cannon may be the answer against teams such as the Lions.

    I also think that the decision on Devlin may come down to what we saw last night...QB protection against a physical line, and Blount top toeing at the goal line.

    The nxt 7-10 days are going to be interesting 



    I dunno.  Losses to the Giants, Ravens, 49ers...and the Lions in a meaningless game. Why are we losing in these physical games? What are the coaches learning? What are the coaches changing to prepare the team for the next time they play a physical team.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_4160947. Show user_4160947's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Whoa Nellie!  That was brutal.  I am seeing something I don't like at all and it is the O line.  We seem to be trying to move to power football and a balanced attack.  What I see is the OL getting slaughtered on just about every power play.  They get pushed back very easily, right into TB's lap.  That makes exchanges to the back a problem and it shrinks the hole.  I thought all our RBs looked average at best, but now I thinking it was because there was nowhere to run.

    What can they do going forward?  For years, folks on this board have extolled the virtues of Scar.  Huh?  Am I missing something?  Personally, I think both Vollmer and Solder are too leggy.  They are tall, with a high center of gravity, and lack an "anchor", which is a big butt and tree trunks for legs.  They are easily overpowered by a bullrush.  Perhaps their body shape is good for pass blocking?  This might be at the core of our problems as we don't have the beef for a power run game.  Logan M has been coasting for 2 years now.  Or he has lost it completely.  They run through him like a turnstile.  In disgust, he'll typically cheap shot somebody and get a flag.  Brian Winters was the best O lineman we've had in years.  He had good feet, was patient in screen/trap plays, and stood his man up.  Connolly is a JAG and I think Cannon is too, notwithstanding his inspirational story.  So where is the beef?  Football is blocking and tackling and we're kinda bad at both at the moment.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    O-line was pathetic last night.  St. Scar should be embarassed

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Yes it's only pre-season, and who the heck wants to get into a knife fight in a meaningless game, but if someone keeps pushing you around and punching you in the face do you take it of curl up in the fetal position....pre-season or not?

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to user_4160947's comment:

    Whoa Nellie!  That was brutal.  I am seeing something I don't like at all and it is the O line.  We seem to be trying to move to power football and a balanced attack.  What I see is the OL getting slaughtered on just about every power play.  They get pushed back very easily, right into TB's lap.  That makes exchanges to the back a problem and it shrinks the hole.  I thought all our RBs looked average at best, but now I thinking it was because there was nowhere to run.

    What can they do going forward?  For years, folks on this board have extolled the virtues of Scar.  Huh?  Am I missing something?  Personally, I think both Vollmer and Solder are too leggy.  They are tall, with a high center of gravity, and lack an "anchor", which is a big butt and tree trunks for legs.  They are easily overpowered by a bullrush.  Perhaps their body shape is good for pass blocking?  This might be at the core of our problems as we don't have the beef for a power run game.  Logan M has been coasting for 2 years now.  Or he has lost it completely.  They run through him like a turnstile.  In disgust, he'll typically cheap shot somebody and get a flag.  Brian Winters was the best O lineman we've had in years.  He had good feet, was patient in screen/trap plays, and stood his man up.  Connolly is a JAG and I think Cannon is too, notwithstanding his inspirational story.  So where is the beef?  Football is blocking and tackling and we're kinda bad at both at the moment.




    This is starting to get old from our  highest paid lineman who is a guard. The money should be in both tackles. Nate is gonna need to get paid. We should have traded Logan 3 years ago when he was B*tching and maybe another part of our team would be solidified. (D tackle, S, CB)

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to user_4160947's comment:

    Whoa Nellie!  That was brutal.  I am seeing something I don't like at all and it is the O line.  We seem to be trying to move to power football and a balanced attack.  What I see is the OL getting slaughtered on just about every power play.  They get pushed back very easily, right into TB's lap.  That makes exchanges to the back a problem and it shrinks the hole.  I thought all our RBs looked average at best, but now I thinking it was because there was nowhere to run.

    What can they do going forward?  For years, folks on this board have extolled the virtues of Scar.  Huh?  Am I missing something?  Personally, I think both Vollmer and Solder are too leggy.  They are tall, with a high center of gravity, and lack an "anchor", which is a big butt and tree trunks for legs.  They are easily overpowered by a bullrush.  Perhaps their body shape is good for pass blocking?  This might be at the core of our problems as we don't have the beef for a power run game.  Logan M has been coasting for 2 years now.  Or he has lost it completely.  They run through him like a turnstile.  In disgust, he'll typically cheap shot somebody and get a flag.  Brian Winters was the best O lineman we've had in years.  He had good feet, was patient in screen/trap plays, and stood his man up.  Connolly is a JAG and I think Cannon is too, notwithstanding his inspirational story.  So where is the beef?  Football is blocking and tackling and we're kinda bad at both at the moment.



    I've been saying this for years, how the OL was built for protecting Brady and passing, not for a power rushing game. TEs were used to help w/ the run game.  The last time we saw good success/improvement was with Crumpler.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:


    O-line was pathetic last night.  St. Scar should be embarassed



    i guess that's only one level down from god...lol

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Generally a teams Oline is great at one or the other, but not both

    I think the observation on which teams gives our oline problems is well stated here.

    When any Qb doesnt get time or holes are not openned, the QB and RB's don't look to good

    The first line of Defense is the Oline, the next is the Dline - it s staying on and getting off the field

    the Pats have won 10 or more games for 10 years - hard to get HoF talent when choosing that late in the draft. And i cannot get on BB for this - does anyone think that we would be talking about our deficiencies if not for - the dropped INT by an All Pro CB?  a helmet catch? and the perfect pass by Eli ? or losing Gronk- the superman of blocking and receiving for us? Not a chance!

    Believe me - eli and coughlin would have been run out on a rail if not for the lucky bounces in 42 and they wouldnt have been there in 46

    Everyone of the recent  SB winners has had more than a few holes on their team - and the breaks went their way - and not ours - or we just had a bad game

    There is a TwilightZone epsiode about a guy who thought he went to Heaven coz  the "Angel" gave him everything he asked for, and was letting him win everything". The guy eventually got really, really bored and complained to the "Angel" maybe I should have gone to the other place? - and the "Angel said to him - why do you think that this isn't the other place?"

    If the Pats won every game - every year - i wouldn't watch - it is all about the journey - and the Pats give me a great journey every year - (although it took me 9 mths after the 18-1 season to get over it)

    I cannot get on TB for losing SB's and PO games, or BB going to a passing attack in a passing era ( I am trying to think of what QB has won everything everytime - there isn't one- even Montana) or not getting All Pros at every position. it is a Rubix cube and it is seldom a team can get all the colors in the right plane.

    So as Bb says - the players got to play better and the coaches have to coach better-

    This team has a chance to win it all - I think TB is still HoF, we have to have a healthy Gronk, healthy VW and  Kelly, with great schemes from the coaches to utilize the athletism of the rest of the O and D,

    I like reading this thread cause I have no one to talk to about Patriots football here in NJ-I I see all of the battles between some of the Posters here - oh well - But I do believe that we all want the same thing - - another SB win - I just don't agree with everyone here all the time - but you all make me think

     


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from stillgridlocked. Show stillgridlocked's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    ...this is a top 3 OL so they are doing something right!




    So Brady getting sacked twice and hit twice in one half of a game makes them a top three OL?

     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

    Generally a teams Oline is great at one or the other, but not both

    I think the observation on which teams gives our oline problems is well stated here.

    When any Qb doesnt get time or holes are not openned, the QB and RB's don't look to good

    The first line of Defense is the Oline, the next is the Dline - it s staying on and getting off the field

    the Pats have won 10 or more games for 10 years - hard to get HoF talent when choosing that late in the draft. And i cannot get on BB for this - does anyone think that we would be talking about our deficiencies if not for - the dropped INT by an All Pro CB?  a helmet catch? and the perfect pass by Eli ? or losing Gronk- the superman of blocking and receiving for us? Not a chance!

    Believe me - eli and coughlin would have been run out on a rail if not for the lucky bounces in 42 and they wouldnt have been there in 46

    Everyone of the recent  SB winners has had more than a few holes on their team - and the breaks went their way - and not ours - or we just had a bad game

    There is a TwilightZone epsiode about a guy who thought he went to Heaven coz  the "Angel" gave him everything he asked for, and was letting him win everything". The guy eventually got really, really bored and complained to the "Angel" maybe I should have gone to the other place? - and the "Angel said to him - why do you think that this isn't the other place?"

    If the Pats won every game - every year - i wouldn't watch - it is all about the journey - and the Pats give me a great journey every year - (although it took me 9 mths after the 18-1 season to get over it)

    I cannot get on TB for losing SB's and PO games, or BB going to a passing attack in a passing era ( I am trying to think of what QB has won everything everytime - there isn't one- even Montana) or not getting All Pros at every position. it is a Rubix cube and it is seldom a team can get all the colors in the right plane.

    So as Bb says - the players got to play better and the coaches have to coach better-

    This team has a chance to win it all - I think TB is still HoF, we have to have a healthy Gronk, healthy VW and  Kelly, with great schemes from the coaches to utilize the athletism of the rest of the O and D,

    I like reading this thread cause I have no one to talk to about Patriots football here in NJ-I I see all of the battles between some of the Posters here - oh well - But I do believe that we all want the same thing - - another SB win - I just don't agree with everyone here all the time - but you all make me think

     


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land



    yep, we are going to win our share of games for sure.

    Sure, the Giants had a little bit of luck.  However, IMO, in 2007 - the Patriots barely beat the Giants during regular season. I knew we were going to have problems in the SB even though the pundits were predicting an easy win. Not only did the Giants beat them once in a SB, they repeated the effort in similar style the second go around. Coughlin clearly outcoached BB. BB and the coaches did not appear to learn from their previous games with the same team.

    If the patriots went 19-0...I'd still watch Laughing LOL

    Altho TB certainly was part of the reason for the two SB losses - he was NOT the only reason - as one delusional poster claims.

    Feel free to post anytime, fellow fan.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to stillgridlocked's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

     

     

    ...this is a top 3 OL so they are doing something right!

     

     




     

     

    So Brady getting sacked twice and hit twice in one half of a game makes them a top three OL?

     

     



    well...it's true most of the time. The only time the water doesn't hold is when they face an uber physical opponent

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to anonymis' comment:

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

     

    Generally a teams Oline is great at one or the other, but not both

    I think the observation on which teams gives our oline problems is well stated here.

    When any Qb doesnt get time or holes are not openned, the QB and RB's don't look to good

    The first line of Defense is the Oline, the next is the Dline - it s staying on and getting off the field

    the Pats have won 10 or more games for 10 years - hard to get HoF talent when choosing that late in the draft. And i cannot get on BB for this - does anyone think that we would be talking about our deficiencies if not for - the dropped INT by an All Pro CB?  a helmet catch? and the perfect pass by Eli ? or losing Gronk- the superman of blocking and receiving for us? Not a chance!

    Believe me - eli and coughlin would have been run out on a rail if not for the lucky bounces in 42 and they wouldnt have been there in 46

    Everyone of the recent  SB winners has had more than a few holes on their team - and the breaks went their way - and not ours - or we just had a bad game

    There is a TwilightZone epsiode about a guy who thought he went to Heaven coz  the "Angel" gave him everything he asked for, and was letting him win everything". The guy eventually got really, really bored and complained to the "Angel" maybe I should have gone to the other place? - and the "Angel said to him - why do you think that this isn't the other place?"

    If the Pats won every game - every year - i wouldn't watch - it is all about the journey - and the Pats give me a great journey every year - (although it took me 9 mths after the 18-1 season to get over it)

    I cannot get on TB for losing SB's and PO games, or BB going to a passing attack in a passing era ( I am trying to think of what QB has won everything everytime - there isn't one- even Montana) or not getting All Pros at every position. it is a Rubix cube and it is seldom a team can get all the colors in the right plane.

    So as Bb says - the players got to play better and the coaches have to coach better-

    This team has a chance to win it all - I think TB is still HoF, we have to have a healthy Gronk, healthy VW and  Kelly, with great schemes from the coaches to utilize the athletism of the rest of the O and D,

    I like reading this thread cause I have no one to talk to about Patriots football here in NJ-I I see all of the battles between some of the Posters here - oh well - But I do believe that we all want the same thing - - another SB win - I just don't agree with everyone here all the time - but you all make me think

     


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     



    yep, we are going to win our share of games for sure.

     

    Sure, the Giants had a little bit of luck.  However, IMO, in 2007 - the Patriots barely beat the Giants during regular season. I knew we were going to have problems in the SB even though the pundits were predicting an easy win. Not only did the Giants beat them once in a SB, they repeated the effort in similar style the second go around. Coughlin clearly outcoached BB. BB and the coaches did not appear to learn from their previous games with the same team.

    If the patriots went 19-0...I'd still watch Laughing LOL

    Altho TB certainly was part of the reason for the two SB losses - he was NOT the only reason - as one delusional poster claims.

    Feel free to post anytime, fellow fan.



    Yes  on the reg season giant game and also the Baltimore game, i think if they had lost theft would have won the sb

    I could take another 19 &0 but not 18&1lol

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from nyjetssuc. Show nyjetssuc's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse


    It's very simple...last year the Ravens beat a team that should have beaten the Ravens...a much more talented team lost...why?...the Ravens out hit them, pure and simple...they wanted it more....that's why we won the 3 SB's we won, because we wanted it more, because we out hit the losers...if we don't become a team that loves to play smashmouth on both sides of the ball 24/7, we won't win anything worth winning, and certainly won't get close to another SB, let alone win it...

    It's football, not tiddly winks!

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to nyjetssuc's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    It's very simple...last year the Ravens beat a team that should have beaten the Ravens...a much more talented team lost...why?...the Ravens out hit them, pure and simple...they wanted it more....that's why we won the 3 SB's we won, because we wanted it more, because we out hit the losers...if we don't become a team that loves to play smashmouth on both sides of the ball 24/7, we won't win anything worth winning, and certainly won't get close to another SB, let alone win it...

    It's football, not tiddly winks!

     I believe u r correct

    losing gronk who  was our toughest player cost us

    i waNt. him back at full speed

    we do have Spikes band he is nasty

    i think vow and Kelly as a team helps a llotion 

    if a Wilson has anything left that also helps

      tough up the middle 

    i do not see that in the afc but I do in the NFC in sf and seattle

    there problem is that both r running qbs grittedgritted hurt, and both r young 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:

    Yes  on the reg season giant game and also the Baltimore game, i think if they had lost theft would have won the sb

     

    I could take another 19 &0 but not 18&1lol

     



    that was a brutal off season.  I don't think I looked as any sporting news at all for 3 months.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonIrishGuy. Show BostonIrishGuy's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    This PATS team can win it all, TomTerrific and Genius BB are the best all time at what they do. No one denies this

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to BostonIrishGuy's comment:

    This PATS team can win it all, TomTerrific and Genius BB are the best all time at what they do. No one denies this



    yes, they can. They just haven't done so since 2004. No one denies this.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    This physical vs finesse talk is overly simplistic and really misleading. The Giants aren't a big, physical defense. They're smaller than the Patriots defense and smaller than the Patriot O-line. Guys like Strahan and Tuck and Pierre-Paul aren't that big size wise, but they're fast, smart and athletic.  Is that physical or finesse? They use athleticism more than brute strength. 

    Big, powerful O-linemen have more trouble containing quick twitch guys like those Giant players or a Von Miller, a Jason Taylor and Aldon Smith than they do with bigger, stronger guys who aren't as athletic. Are those guys physical or finesse? I'm not even sure what that means.

    Who remembers when the Miami Hurricanes used to play teams like Nebraska back in the 80s. Nebraska was more physical, bigger, stronger. But Miami was better, faster, way more athletic. Were they the finesse team? Whatever, they were better football players. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

     

     Our O line is well coached and plays smart, but not all the players are that athletic, and the unit sometimes just loses battles with more athletic defensive fronts. 

     

    It's not a playcalling problem.  Blaming everything on "finesse" playcalling is getting kind of lame.  

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    I think this year we will see more run.

    physical usually means run and

    finesse means pass

    size doesn't always matter but point is made on quick vs big

    Spikes is Physical, Gronk is physical we need more

    I think Calvin Murphy destroyed Sydney Wickes one night he was physical and quick

    Btw Detroit  dline  looks a lot bigger than our Oline and the running lanes were shut down

     

     

     

     

     

    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     Our O line is well coached and plays smart, but not all the players are that athletic, and the unit sometimes just loses battles with more athletic defensive fronts. 

     

    It's not a playcalling problem.  Blaming everything on "finesse" playcalling is getting kind of lame.  

     



    No, it's not lame. It's called seeing a pattern. If it happened once in while, you'd be correct, but our finesse pass first, stats heavy shotgun offense has been exposed so many times now, you can't hide behind this "aw shucks, it's a coincidece" routine.

     

    You;re too intelligent to not be past this at this point.

    Dude, it's over. The days of Brady bouncing up and down in a perfectly clean pocket for 7 seconds because Ds took out Moss with two bodies deep or Welker underneath with two players, is all over. All over.

    It was a flawed proactive offense against the superior front 7s because it wasn't something that could sustain without immaculate execution, which is too much to ask from an O Line or an offense for 3 straight postseason games.

    It's an attitude or ideological problem.  Stop making a fool of yourself becaue you have been personally entertaind at home games becaue most the defenses we see at home in the regular season aren't that good.

    We play in the AFCE.  

    I want to know that Logie Mankins is interested in earning his money in January instead of playing off this tough guy image for years and then crapping his pants in the postseason along with our other higher paid offensive players.

    Welkie wanted a piece late, but BB said no.  Bye bye.

    PS Our O Line is VERY atheltic, arguably the most athletic in the NFL!  You can't run zone blocking schemes without athletic O Lineman. Jesus, dude.

    Enough with the desperate excuses.

     



    ur such an idiot with all this blather

    bb's "rebuilt" D of the past 6 yrs can't stop a cold when it counts

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Inokea4coolaid. Show Inokea4coolaid's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Of course.  The Patriots are a great finesse team. The finesse team was built by  the great BB. Nothing wrong with it.  They will win their share of games over average and below average teams and a few good teams. Their Kryptonite are physical teams that can get to Brady in one fashion or other. Not Brady's fault - as that would be true for any QB who is getting manhandled and gets it up dabutt.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Physical Beats Finesse

    Whoa horsie!  Get the peeper scooper. 

    The Patriots are one of the heaviest teams in the NFL.  That's mostly muscle, except at nose tackle where they add a bit of sumo wrestler fat to Big Vince. 

    Worse, occasionally BB drafts the genuine article nasty guy who has to be let go because he's going to spend his life in jail.  Mostly BB drafts good kids who just grew up on the wrong side of town.  BB doesn't draft a lot of finesse players.  He drafts players (Ebner, Dennard, Duron Harmon, KT) who hit like a truck. 

    Calling the Patriots a "finesse" team, to insult them, is a ploy that other teams choose to try.  Neither BB or his players are going to respond to insults, but the insult has no legs. 

     

     
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