Poilan(s) gets the boot

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : Okay and what about Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Edgerrin James and an offensive line that was consisently rated as one of the top pass blocking lines in the league in the early 2000's.  Didn't they have something to do with Manning's statistics and victories? You've already conceded that the Colts would have won more games if Orlovsky had started the entire season.  You stated previously the colts would have won 5-8 games.  Yet you continue to harp on Colt's record this year as "evidence" that Manning is the most valuable player ever since the 2008 Pats went 11-5 while ignoring the obvious context.  Matt Cassel /> Curtis Painter, Bill Belichick /> Jim Caldwell not to mention that the 2008 Patriots played one of the easiest schedules in recent memory. Manning is a great quarterback, but your arguments reek of the same "blind fandom" you criticize others for on this board.  You claim Patriots fans always default to TB's playoff record and SB victories as well as head to head matchups in the early 2000's when arguing about Manning.  Well Colt's fans always default to the Pat's defense while conveniently ignoring that Manning's supporting cast on offense was vastly superior at that time.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]

    All excellent players made better by Manning, just as Brady is making his excellent receiving corps of Welker, Branch, Gronkowski, and Hernandez better.  Brady is currently doing what Manning has always done, guiding HIS team to victory because HE can't fully count on the defense.  For that matter, neither can Belichick (for reference: see 4th and 2). 

    Great QB's make the weapons around them better, but you will note that the names I listed had nary to do with the offense.  They were all a part of a dominant defensive group (plus a kicker) that defined your team during your superbowl run. 

    I do think that the colts may have won 5-8 games with Orlovsky.  I said they would do that at the beginning of the year with Collins or Painter.  I was wrong, and am speculating now. 

    I'll accept that I suffer from fandom (although not nearly as blind as some here), but there's enough evidence to support my claims that are Manning specific to make the argument, while I again state that the pats fan will almost always trot out team wins and apply full credit to Brady as their argument.  

    Next someone will say, I'll bet Manning would prefer the SB's to all of the personal accolades he's received, and I'd agree, but that's not an argument against what Manning has done.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : This to me seems like a silly argument.  What executive/coach in the cap era has had success without good QB play?  Saying a team will not be good without good QB play in the modern NFL is besides the point.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]

    The reason that Babe may be wrong is that Belichick has proven himself to be smart about situational football and about building defenses.  As babe correctly points out, some of his personnel decisions haven't worked so he may not have the talent he desires on defense. 

    All of that said, I still happen to agree with Babe, that as currently constructed Tom Brady is the straw that stirs the Patriots drink.  When Brady goes, the org will have to hope for another unusual confluence of great defensive players like that which occurred early last decade to go along with a young effective game managing QB. 
     
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    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : LOL - the one comment pats fans always run to when they can't conjure up anything better - Tom Brady's record is better.  Tom Brady wasn't the NE Patriots which was proven in 2008 when the dominant defense was truly waning.  He is now.  Brady is finally carrying the team these past few years, like Manning has his entire career (as proven by this year's colts record).  I've always wondered what guys like Bruschi, Vrabel, Seymour, McGinest, Wilfork, Warren, Samuel, Harrison, Law, Milloy, Vinatieri think when they see people talking about Tom Brady's record.  Didn't they have something to do with those victories?
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    There you go again.

    You make some reasonable points but whenever it comes to Manning vs Brady you go off the deep end every time.

    Taking the nine years of SB appearances for either team, from 2001 to 2009, the Pats had the better D 5 times and the Colts 4 times. Yet you try to spin it as poor little Peyton having to make up for that bad D all those years. BS!

    Your phoney baloney has, yet again, utterly failed. F A I L
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : This to me seems like a silly argument.  What executive/coach in the cap era has had success without good QB play?  Saying a team will not be good without good QB play in the modern NFL is besides the point.
    Posted by pcmIV[/QUOTE]

    It's not an argument. It's the reality. Without the great players the coaches do squat. Some people around here lose sight of that axiom.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : There you go again. You make some reasonable points but whenever it comes to Manning vs Brady you go off the deep end every time. Taking the nine years of SB appearances for either team, from 2001 to 2009, the Pats had the better D 5 times and the Colts 4 times. Yet you try to spin it as poor little Peyton having to make up for that bad D all those years. BS! Your phoney baloney has, yet again, utterly failed. F A I L
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
    Sorry Babe, you can pull your yardage stats or points stats to prove your point, but if I am asking 10 knowledgeable unbiased people whether they would choose the colts defense of any year over the past decade vs. any of the Pats defenses from 2001-2008, I am more than willing to bet that 9 of 10 will take the pats each and every time.  I'll accept all of your harrumphs, for making an opinion based statement vs. your statistical facts, but I'll stand behind my belief based on the ever popular eye test.  And then, as I have done before, if you need the stats (beyond just reg season), I'll give those to you. 

    Fortunately for pats fans you had one of the most dominant defensive units of the decade.  Top 3. 
     
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    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : The reason that Babe may be wrong is that Belichick has proven himself to be smart about situational football and about building defenses.  As babe correctly points out, some of his personnel decisions haven't worked so he may not have the talent he desires on defense.  All of that said, I still happen to agree with Babe, that as currently constructed Tom Brady is the straw that stirs the Patriots drink.  When Brady goes, the org will have to hope for another unusual confluence of great defensive players like that which occurred early last decade to go along with a young effective game managing QB. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    The dynasty defenses were almost already built when BB got here. He did add a few key pieces to complete the process.

    Yet those defenses were not the key reason for the success as subsequent years had good defenses without the same success.

    Your incessant attempts to discount Brady to boost your hero Fetus Head are sickening. You have a one track mind.

    Manning was the game manager. He "managed" to throw away a SB in the waning minutes.

    Meanwhile, Brady "managed" to drive his team in the last minutes to go ahead scores four out of four times.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : Sorry Babe, you can pull your yardage stats or points stats to prove your point, but if I am asking 10 knowledgeable unbiased people whether they would choose the colts defense of any year over the past decade vs. any of the Pats defenses from 2001-2008, I am more than willing to bet that 9 of 10 will take the pats each and every time.  I'll accept all of your harrumphs, for making an opinion based statement vs. your statistical facts, but I'll stand behind my belief based on the ever popular eye test.  And then, as I have done before, if you need the stats (beyond just reg season), I'll give those to you.  Fortunately for pats fans you had one of the most dominant defensive units of the decade.  Top 3. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    Oh, the good old "eye test"; the bastion of the spin artist.

    Do you really think 9 out of 10 would take the Pats' #17 D in 2005 over the Colts' #2 D of that year?

    Over 9 years the Colts' D was better 44% of the time. Read it and weep.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In response to "Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot": [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : Sorry Babe, you can pull your yardage stats or points stats to prove your point, but if I am asking 10 knowledgeable unbiased people whether they would choose the colts defense of any year over the past decade vs. any of the Pats defenses from 2001-2008, I am more than willing to bet that 9 of 10 will take the pats each and every time.  I'll accept all of your harrumphs, for making an opinion based statement vs. your statistical facts, but I'll stand behind my belief based on the ever popular eye test.  And then, as I have done before, if you need the stats (beyond just reg season), I'll give those to you.  Fortunately for pats fans you had one of the most dominant defensive units of the decade.  Top 3.  Posted by UD6[/QUOTE] Pretty sure they weren't, and I loved those defenses but two of the best defenses of all time were the 2000 Ravens, and the 2002 Bucs. When looking at the top 10 defenses of all time 7 were in the 60s and 70s, since then just 3, the 85 bears and the two I just mentioned. I believe the Ravens were again higher in 06. Anyway, point is they had a real good unit, but historic it was not.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : It's not an argument. It's the reality. Without the great players the coaches do squat. Some people around here lose sight of that axiom.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]

    What I meant was saying that the Pats would be bad without Brady as a criticism of BB is silly.  All of the great coaches/GM's of the cap era (and many before) benefitted from good QB play.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    Shen - as far as maintaining excellence over a long period of time, the pats defense btn 01-08 will go down as one of the best - particularly in this cap era.  Likely the only peers with longevity to the pats is the Ravens and Steelers.  
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : Oh, the good old "eye test"; the bastion of the spin artist. Do you really think 9 out of 10 would take the Pats' #17 D in 2005 over the Colts' #2 D of that year? Over 9 years the Colts' D was better 44% of the time. Read it and weep.
    Posted by BabeParilli[/QUOTE]
    You could look at it that way, and yes, I think prior to that season, anyone would have taken the Pats - I am talking personnel. 

    Further, and this is the point - what the pats did was maintain sustained excellence on the defensive side of the ball during that entire period, and they shined specifically in the playoffs during that period giving up more than 21 points thru 17 playoff games only 4 times, getting 40 turnovers, and giving up more than 100 yds rushing only 4 times. 

    by contrast, in Manning's 19 playoff games, the colts d gave up more than 21 points 9 times, got 36 turnovers (more than a third of which happened in their SB winning year), and gave up more than 100 yds rushing 11 times (8 times more than 140 yds rushing).  Oh and the FG kicker missed twice to either win or extend games.  Never happened to Brady.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    Brady puts his kicker in range, and it's easier on the defense if you're QB isn't throwing INT's, like pick 6's in the SB.
     
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    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : You could look at it that way, and yes, I think prior to that season, anyone would have taken the Pats - I am talking personnel.  Further, and this is the point - what the pats did was maintain sustained excellence on the defensive side of the ball during that entire period, and they shined specifically in the playoffs during that period giving up more than 21 points thru 17 playoff games only 4 times, getting 40 turnovers, and giving up more than 100 yds rushing only 4 times.  by contrast, in Manning's 19 playoff games, the colts d gave up more than 21 points 9 times, got 36 turnovers (more than a third of which happened in their SB winning year), and gave up more than 100 yds rushing 11 times (8 times more than 140 yds rushing).  Oh and the FG kicker missed twice to either win or extend games.  Never happened to Brady.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    More points get scored in a dome.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from UD6. Show UD6's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    Shen - your points are well taken except that both of Vanderjagts kicks were well within his range. 

    The pick 6 - well, you'll always have that one play out of thousands of passing attempts to try to make your case. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : You could look at it that way, and yes, I think prior to that season, anyone would have taken the Pats - I am talking personnel.  Further, and this is the point - what the pats did was maintain sustained excellence on the defensive side of the ball during that entire period, and they shined specifically in the playoffs during that period giving up more than 21 points thru 17 playoff games only 4 times, getting 40 turnovers, and giving up more than 100 yds rushing only 4 times.  by contrast, in Manning's 19 playoff games, the colts d gave up more than 21 points 9 times, got 36 turnovers (more than a third of which happened in their SB winning year), and gave up more than 100 yds rushing 11 times (8 times more than 140 yds rushing).  Oh and the FG kicker missed twice to either win or extend games.  Never happened to Brady.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    In Manning's 10 playoff losses the Colt's offense averaged a hair over 14 points (assuming they were responsible for all the points as I didn't check for defensive or ST scores).  It is a bit much to put all of those losses on the defense.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]Shen - your points are well taken except that both of Vanderjagts kicks were well within his range.  The pick 6 - well, you'll always have that one play out of thousands of passing attempts to try to make your case. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]


    Thousands of passing attempts? Have you no shame? Manning has 83 passing attempts in SBs. He doesn't even have a thousand in all his playoff games combined.


    Spin attempt FAIL again.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from FenwayChuck. Show FenwayChuck's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot : Sorry Babe, you can pull your yardage stats or points stats to prove your point, but if I am asking 10 knowledgeable unbiased people whether they would choose the colts defense of any year over the past decade vs. any of the Pats defenses from 2001-2008, I am more than willing to bet that 9 of 10 will take the pats each and every time.  I'll accept all of your harrumphs, for making an opinion based statement vs. your statistical facts, but I'll stand behind my belief based on the ever popular eye test.  And then, as I have done before, if you need the stats (beyond just reg season), I'll give those to you.  Fortunately for pats fans you had one of the most dominant defensive units of the decade.  Top 3. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    But that is simply because 9 out of 10 people that are knowledgeable about football HATE the arrogance of the COLTS ( Polian and Peyton) More than they are disgusted by the Spygate crap!

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from LazarusintheSanatorium. Show LazarusintheSanatorium's posts

    Re: Poilan(s) gets the boot

    I always wondered to myself whether or not Brady coulda led NE to maybe 8 Superbowl Appearances, and perhaps 6 Lombardi trophies IF he played in Dome, Had Polian (and sometimes his head coach too) on The NFL Competition Committee, and had the barely serviceable weapons of: Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, Tony Gonzalez, Marvin Harrison, Dallas Clark, Bryan Fletcher, Marcus Pollard, Joseph Addai, Edgerrin James, Dominic Rhodes and a year with Marshall Faulk...And throughout his career, was protected by: Jeff Saturday, Tony Ugoh, Charlie Johnson, Mike Pollack, Ryan Diem & Ryan Lilja (last 2 guys certain starter nearly any year for NE in the past decade), oh-along with Steve Justice, Jake Scott, and Matt Ulrich...And finally had a Defense consisting of Dwight FreeneyRobert Mathis, Raheem Brock (A DT with over 40 sacks in 8 NFL years might not be much in your eyes, but I believe we've had years where our NE sack leader in that given season, never even managed 5 Sacks), Marcus Howard, Philip Wheeler, Cato June (500TTs & 12 Ints in 5 yrs), Gary Brackett (ILB with 6 starting years of 700+ TTs, 12 INTs, and 4 Sacks), Nick Harper (a DB w/ 625 TTs, 88 PDs), Kelvin Hayden, oh- Antoine Bethea and lastly, Bob Sanders as your All-Pro Safety (btw-I'm giving Brady the kicking services of Martin Grammatica, Mike Vanderjagt, and Adam Vinatieri)...      
     
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