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Post Draft Blues

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to Brady2Welker47's comment:

    I will answer that question for you.


    BC most of us are tired of NE and BB trading down for solid players and not going for the can't miss type of player...We are all well aware of Brady's window closing and.we would prefer going all in..quality over Quantity...I love what BB has done and I understand that BC of him the Pats have continued excellence but the Brady window is closing and we would like impact players..just an opinion ..go Pats!!!

         Generally, I would agree. But, in this case, and with this particular draft class, BB absolutely did the right thing by trading down. I didn't see WR Cordarelle Patterson being a guy who can put the Patriots over the hump. We'll soon see.

         Thus, trading the 29 selection for the 52nd, 83rd, 102nd, and 217th or whatever it was choice to me made sense. It gave the Patriots 5 picks amongst the top 102 what was a deep draft. BB was going for the home run. But, taking Harmon at 91 deeply scarred this draft.


  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Brady2Moss07. Show Brady2Moss07's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to Brady2Moss07's comment:

    Texas pat, why not find a team who's draft you liked and root for them. It's hard not to trust in BB  given he will likely go down as the greatest coach in history.

    RESPONE: Greatest coach...YES. Greatest GM? NO!  

    The likes oF Kiper, McShay, etc... Don't build teams. They grade individual players. Do you go back and see how many times draft prognosticators where wrong?

    RESPONSE: Can you deny that BB has had some very poor drafts in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009, and wasted the top pick in the 2nd round in 2011 on a guy who was injury prone in college, and spent the 48th overall pick last year, reaching for Tavon Wilson? Judging from the fact that BB against reached for a safety wityh a high pick this year...does that seem like a ringing endorsement of the abilities of Wilson? 

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:


    I would answer your question with a question. Then I might have a better a better idea how to respond in an appropriate manner.

    Were you optimistic about last years draft?


         Yes! I loved the move-ups to grab Chandler Jones and Hightower. I thought that the Denard pick in round 7 was fantastic. BUT...just as is the case this year...there was a skunk in the woodpile. The horrible decision to use the 48th overall pick to reach for safety Tavon Wilson changed what could have been a great draft, into just a good one. I saw that as a major reach...just as I do with the Harmon pick at #91. 


    OK so are you dissappointed/NOT optimitic simply because of the Harmon pick or the dratf as a whole? 

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to mbear3915's comment:

    Here are a few positives:

    1. Two new receivers that are fast - and one that is even on the 'bigger side' ... with both being termed 'pretty smart' ... if so, AND if they can get on Brady's wavelength we now may have legitimate outside and/or deep threats .. in addition to an overwhelming presence short and middle with our TEs, out of the backfield pass catching and slot receiver capability. One of the receivers ran a 4.38 sec 40 on a broken toe! Not Randy Moss in his prime walking through the door just yet - but maybe the closest we've come in a while. (while not In Bill We Trust exactly, I am hoping for some of the Josh M magic in picking WRs to be there - eg. E Decker, D Thomas)

    2. The Rutgers defensive backfield comes north ... one hopes that what we pick up beyond skills is a jump start in better communication .. which takes a while to get right. Add a hopefully healthy Talib (with some more time in our system) --- and our defense should get better. In some configurations with DMC we may have 2 or even 3 of the other DBs operating at a higher level.

    3. Not sure on Collins, and the 7th rounders but I count the addition of both Armstead and Vega in what looks like a decent attempt to add more 'rush the passer' firepower to what we saw with C. Jones and Ninkovich ... plus we have Fletcher returning from injury to allow us to take more chances on blitzes.

    4. Do like adding Blount - if he can keep his head on straight we get serious short yardage running threat - a huge weakness last year, lost when Law Firm left.

    All in all ... feels like we addressed needs on both sides of the ball. Not flashy, but still with a decent chance at improvement. 


    RESPONSE: Thank you for your excellent post! But, I must say that if Collins is a bust, so is this draft. He must become the contributor that BB believes he can be.

         Love that picture of the dreaded Gorn!! LOL!!!


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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:


    In response to TexasPat's comment:


    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:


    I would answer your question with a question. Then I might have a better a better idea how to respond in an appropriate manner.

    Were you optimistic about last years draft?


         Yes! I loved the move-ups to grab Chandler Jones and Hightower. I thought that the Denard pick in round 7 was fantastic. BUT...just as is the case this year...there was a skunk in the woodpile. The horrible decision to use the 48th overall pick to reach for safety Tavon Wilson changed what could have been a great draft, into just a good one. I saw that as a major reach...just as I do with the Harmon pick at #91. 


    OK so are you dissappointed/NOT optimitic simply because of the Harmon pick or the dratf as a whole?

         Collins can either become a McGinest type, or another Shawn Crable. Dobson could be our answer at WR. Logan Ryan is a physical CB, but I question his coverage skills. That said, he's a junior he has some upside. Harmon at #91 was a joke. It also seems that his selection this early is an indictment of Tavon Wilson? Or, does BB see him as Adrian Wilson's eventual replacement? I don't hate Harmon as a player...but I do hate him being selected at #91.

          The point I'm trying to make above is that even though all the players that the ats' drafted may be busts, because of their play in college, and their physical attributes...each presents a reason for hope. But, that's not so with Harmon. His play and attributes have him listed by most as a priority FA.

         So, yes, I'm disappointed because what I thought could have been a very good draft was marred by the Harmon selection at #91. As I have stated above, if the Pats had gone in a different direction at #91, and taken one of the alternative players I named above, I'd be doing back-flips today (especially if the pick was used on QB Matt Barkley, or Ryan Nassib).

          No one knows whether a draft will pan out until the players taken start playing. Using a 3rd round pick on a guy who likely could have been had with one of their 7th round picks, doesn't make sense, or inspire optimism. Taking one of those QBs though...even if they both turn out to be busts...provides hope and optimism for the future, when Tom Brady retires. 

         The chances of getting an opportunity to gamble on a QB with potential usually requires the use of a first or second round pick...not a late third, or a 4th rounder. That's why see this as a wasted opportunity.  In the NFL, a team can't win consistently without a top QB...and Tom Brady can't go on forever.  




  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:


    It seems that some feel if you don't guzzle the kool-aide that BB craps gold bullion you should go cheer another team. That's un-American.

    RESPONSE: Unreal.     Hey...Kentucky Babe, what's your opinion of the Pats' draft?  



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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    Not sure if drafting Harmon means Wilson is a bust. We all saw that they could use an upgrade at that position and that Gregory wasn't anything special. I was hoping they'd grab Shamarko Thomas there, but they didn't (obviously).

    There will be competition at that position and it could well be that Gregory is the one on the street when it's all done.  

    My only second guess on this draft is the lack of a DT. I thought that was their biggest need or at least 1A with WR. 

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    So the new theme seems to be that they're a mediocre team without Brady. Maybe, maybe not, but what is any team in the NFL without their stud QB? Answer: Buffalo.

    Frankly, if you took the best QBs from their teams, Rodgers, Brees, Peyton, Eli, Flacco, etc. and made them go with their backups, I think the Pats would be better than any of them. They could run their offense better with Mallett than those other teams with their backups. They'd still go 10-6.

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    When looking at this draft, first I need to take a look at the starters. We'll go D first:

    CB: Talib, Dennard, Arrington - I went 3 deep because in today's NFL, your top 3 are basically starters. I am very comfortable with Talib and Dennard on the outside. Arrington working in the slot is ok with me as well. That being said, I was hoping for nothing better than a #4 CB, and the Pats seemed to get exactly that. If Dowling could ever stay healthy, the need lessens even unlikely as that may be.

    S: A Wilson, McCourty, Gregory, T Wilson - The addition of Wilson, another year for T Wilson, and another year of fitting in for Gregory and I see a unit that should be better with McCourty their from Day 1, and Talib helping out by association. Again, the NEED wasn't for a starter, but some depth and potential. They certainly got that in a guy that seems to be "boom or bust". There are a LOT of intriguing snippets to read about the kid. Nobody went to scout him specifically, and many came away with an impression he left. If he OR T Wilson work out over the next 2 seasons, that a win in my book.

    LB: Mayo, Spikes, Hightower, Ninkovich - Not a whole lot to complain about here, except they didn't cover TEs, or the middle of the field in general, very well. They needed only a coverage-type LB, or some depth. Again, they seemed to address exactly that.

    DLine - Wilfork, Jones, Deaderick, Kelly - Solid. Not spectacular. For me, this unit needs a year of seasoning more than anything else where Jones and deaderick (and Love) can hopefully blossom into more complete players. Jones seems like a stud in the making. They NEEDED little here (pass rushing specialist? I know, about 28 other teams would love the same thing, if they were so readily available, more teams would have them), and they got a decent talent late in the draft.

    For the D, I didn't feel like they needed any starter upgrades. Ideally, sure, I could point out 5/6 positions. But realistically, I can't expect 7 Pro Bowl caliber'd be nice to have, but silly to expect.

    The O needed ONE outside WR. They drafted 3. 1 of them is likely to be at least serviceable, and that's as much as I can hope for. Do I wish they found a Greg Jnnings type? Obviously, but who knows! I'm very curious to watch Dobson get out there. And considering Ds will have to watch Gronk, Hern, Amendola and the RBs first, there is potential there for him to find some very soft coverages. That size, speed and hands, and likely looking at a LOT of single converages, and TB as his QB...well, he doesn't have to be great...he just needs to be a legit NFL player.

    The Pats are drafting from a position of strength in that most of their starters were already in place. Now either these guys add depth, or outplay a current starter, and raise the level of the team.


  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    BB is a rare coach.  BB runs a team based on philosophies of the game.  His teams are built with players who best fits this and he molds the team around this instead of molding his team around players.  There are two flaws to this... Depth and less over all talent.  At the end of the day they couldn't win the big games due to not having quality depth in key positions, therefore losing to more talented teams.

    He isn't going to change his approach.  He's does things differently then any other coach out there.  He is the smartest coach in football and I wouldn't want any other coach.  Every time I watch a Pats game I'm excitied, not only to watch the game and the players but to watch BB coach and watch what he has put together.  It's very amazing, year in and year out, no other coach has a team in a position to win it all every single year for such a long time.  But, in the end they have the same problem.  Injury, lack of quality depth and losing to a more talented team on the field that day.

    Based on the moves the Pats have made this off season and in the draft I don't see a SB winning team.  But by the time this team takes the field everything will be in place to make another run at the Championship and they will be there in the playoffs once again.  Will this year be the year they can escape the injuries to key players and be able to play in the playoffs and the SB with the most talented players on the team on the field?  We shall see, and once again I can't wait for the season to start.

    With regards to football... This is Bill Belichicks world and we are just living in it. 


  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from qball369. Show qball369's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    I think the first thing to realize is that this draft was widely viewed as being a depth building draft, with play makers being in short supply - only 5 skill position players were taken in the 1st round - this fact tends to support the premise - it is clear that the Patriots viewed the draft as a depth building draft

    For all of you pooping all over this draft - can you name for me the players that either the Ravens or 49ers drafted last year that were they key to getting them into the SB?

    I have been as disappointed as anyone in the Pats losing the SB 2 seasons ago and losing in the AFC title last year - but to be honest, these losses were due to flaws the Pats were known to have going in:

    1. The Patriots have lacked the ability to legitimately threaten the outside and deep parts of the field since Randy Moss left

    2. The Patriots pass D has struggled for several seasons in getting off the field in key situations

    IMO  - the Patriots lost the Jets Playoff game in 2011 and the AFC title game in January due largely to the Patriots inability to threaten the outside of the field - those teams had D's that could bottle up middle of the field - the Patriots failed to or were unable to adjust - they lost

    The Patriots lost the SB to the Giants due to their porous pass D - they simply couldn't get the stops they needed to win the game

    So - how do they address in this draft? - They draft a linebacker who projects as being very effective in pass coverage(the biggest weakness in the otherwise solid Patriots LB corps), they draft a big, fast, smart WR, they draft a solid 2-3 CB prospect, a safety who likes to hit(something the Pats lack now that Chung is gone), they draft another WR - one who can create matchup challenges due to his potential to play outside due to his size, and the slot due to his feet - they trade a 7th and a dead asset to get a RB 2 seasons removed from a 1000 yd season, and 2 7th round picks, one of whom has real upside ( Michael Buchanan)

    So, whether you are excited about the particular players that the Patriots drafted, it seems impossible to criticize their attempts to address areas of clear need

    I think it is also worth mentioning that the Patriots started the draft with significant money left under the cap, and will not be saddled with any very expensive contracts from the draft - this should leave them in a positon to continue to address areas of need(pass rush, OL depth) post draft - when the 2nd round of team cuts start happening as other teams have to trim payroll to sign THEIR picks  - The Patriots have had success in the past picking up good players in situations like this 

    So TP - there is some reason for optimism - the Pats as contructed last year were good enough to be in AFC title game last year, and were clearly the better team in the 1st half without the best current player on their roster not named Brady ( Gronk) - they did this with a largely re-tooled D who should get better this year with experience - I personally felt the Pats looked better on D after they acquired Talib then they had since 2008 

    Count me as a fan who wasn't looking for a savior from the draft  - and its a long way til training camp in the summer - and the have lots of roster spots - let's see how they fill the team out before training camping before taking a schizz on this season

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to rameakap's comment:

    How I see it:

    LOVE Ryan (top 60 value at 83, tough, fits scheme, GREAT #4 CB), Boyce (SMART, fast and tough in the 4th rd) and Beauharnais (4th-5th rd talent in rd 7, a leader, hitter and tackle machine) and the Blount trade (better than Bolden, adds nastiness)

    LIKE Dobson (is he smart enough?), Collins (does he have the motor and desire?) and Buchanan (will he revert to 2011 form? although gotta love 7th rd value)

    HATE Harmon

    The Pats could have traded down from 91 into the 100-115 range and picked up Barrett Jones or Alex Okafor as well as a 6th rd pick. A pass rush specialist or interior O-line depth was much more important than a 5th safety.

    Harmon would have been available in rd 6 around pick 175.

    same thing with Tavon Wilson last year. Nobody cares that he looked ok, or BB had him rated thatb high. He 99.99% would have been there in rd 4. you take Kendell Reyes and pick Wilson later on every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

    This is where I respectfully disagree. Strongly.

    There may very well be a team, or mroe than one that went "damn" when the Pats made that pick. Unfortunately, we'll never know. Yes, the widely agreed upon view was he was a 6th-ish rounder. All it takes in one other team...correction...all it takes is ONE team, in this case the Pats, to view him differently. Every team does it...some do it in the 1st (Buffalo, others do it in the 4th, some do it in the 7th taking a guy they don't really feel is worth a pick, but doubt they'll be able to sign as an UDFA and they want him, so they 'overspend' to get the guy they want.

    I'm happy the Pats trust their board. You need people at the top who believe in what they are doing. Over time, it either works or it doesn't. If it doesn't work, they get replaced. It will never ALWAYS work. I routinely point to Vollmer who was a 4th rounder at best by grade when the Pats "reached" into the 2nd to grab him.

    They liked Harmon. They wanted him on the team. They did what they thought they needed to do to get him on their team. I say - good for them.

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tanbass. Show tanbass's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    Hey TP...sounds like you are tired of all the "In Bill We Trust" folks.....just like most of us are tired of the "The sky is Falling" types. It's a wash really.

    Some of us choose to be somewhat rational knowing you can't possibly judge the new talent for at least a year or two. Then folks like your self who get their panties in a wad because BB didn't draft your favorite names.

    You whined for months over the draft last year because of one pick (YOU) didn't like....and here we are again. Just because we don't cry like you over a pick doesn't mean we are swinging from BB's nutsack. Enjoy your misery dude!!

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

         Good morning, my friends! Judging from the posts I've read in the wake of the 2013 draft, most Pats fans are very unhappy with the results. There appears to be a lack of optimism and enthusiasm on this forum. I have an idea why many of you feel that way. My personal thoughts on the draft are pretty well known.

         What I'm looking for in this thread is some optimism. I want somebody to explain to me why the Patriots did much better than most of us apparently feel. BUT PLEASE...spare me the "In Bill We Trust" montras. I'm looking for your own gut opinions, and football reasons, backed by common sense and to why you feel that the players taken were good selections, and why you feel that the Patriots gained on their top opposition...the Denver Broncos, Bengals, Texans, Ravens, and the free spending Miami Dolphins.

         I look forward to reading your responses. 


    hey u grade my beloved Jints TP?

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    When your own gut opinions tell you that you can draft better than Belichick, it's time to stop listening to your gut.

  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from SANPAT. Show SANPAT's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In bill I trust

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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from garytx. Show garytx's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    First off this wasn't a good draft pool to start with.  A couple of blue chippers but that's it.  Any time you have a bandwidth of 60 players grading out almost the same it's going to be pretty blah.  My impression of the draft is BB did the right thing in trading out of the 1st round.  I wished it was to a team that was selecting higher though.  But the Pats got a lot of picks in return.   

    Collins is the kind of pick that should have been the theme for this draft.  Instead it will probably go down as the Rutgers draft. Very atheletic.  This was a solid pick.  Margus Hunt was there and was on a lot of folks radar here.  Collins was on a very bad So. Miss. team and that probably hurt his recognition.

    Dobson should make you very happy.  Great hands.

    Logan fills a need and should be a sound CB.  Depth pick for sure and it was one of the things that I was looking for this draft. He'll have a chance to play and learn the game.

    Duron Harmon.  Geez.  Just when my arguement was going well.

    Boyce.  Some say one of the steals of the draft.

    Buchanan.  He dropped a lot and not at all sure why.  Perhaps another steal?  This is a wait and see.

    Beauharnals.  Go Rutgers!  Special teams player?  I would have thought an OL here for depth.  So this pick surprises me.

    I am one of the few who isn't happy with the Blount trade.  The guy is a bonehead.  Lots of talent with a pea sized brain.

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TampaPete. Show TampaPete's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    The Pats needed a couple of WRs and they got them.  They needed a coverage linebacker and they got one.  They needed some more DBs and they got them.  It would have been nice if they could have traded up, but by being aggressive last year BB didn't have the ammunition.  The Pats went into the draft with five picks.  Everybody who has been paying attention knew that BB was going to trade down unless there was a must-have available at 29.  Getting 4 picks for one was amazing.  The players picked have potential.  I am looking forward to seeing what they can do.


    We can argue about the picks for the next 8 years; that it the fun of being a fan.  The fact is that the guys you get your heart set on are rarely going to get picked.  A couple of years ago, I had my eyes on Demarco Murray and BB picked Vereen and Ridley.  It turned out that Murray was good, but so are the Pat's RBs. 


    I was a little disappointed that the Pats didn't take Patterson, but if Dobson, Boyce, and Collins turn out to be keepers, I'll be happy.

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTS. Show BostonTS's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    Pat, well, you're a respected poster here though your constant Tavon Wilson trolling after last year's draft cost you a lot of credibility. 

    It's really not that hard to understand why this year's draft looks like a good one for the team: 

    - What Pats fans who are belly aching are overlooking is that our last several drafts have been overall solid. BB has made some personnel mistakes IMO outside of the draft, but the draft overall has been much better in recent years. There is no reason to believe this year won't be another good draft. 

    - Even draft experts admitted this was a talent-weak draft. The Pats lacked picks they could bundle up for an impact player anyhow. 

    - Instead of his maddening habit of trading down and then using those picks on baffling "best player available" options, this year BB drafted direclty according to greatest team need. With BB's trouble drafting a good wide receiver who fits in on the Pats, it makes far more sense to take a flyer on two decent ones. 

    It's really not that hard to understand Pat. 

    Beyond that, I don't really have much respect for peeps who get worked up high or low on draft selections. It takes two years minimum to fully judge a draft, so go outside and grab a cold one. 

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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    Probably the best thread in terms of actually analyzing needs and picks on the forum. Some great posts - too many to call out individually. I really like this draft. I really liked last years draft.

    What I find so funny is this: The Pats make 8 or so picks each year. And quite often there is one pick between the second and fourth round that is termed 'a real head scratcher' by the pundits and the draft graders.

    And the classic comment on this board from the doom and gloomers is:

    I really liked the draft (or the draft was just fine) and then they used pick # ___ on [head scratcher] who could have been picked up x rounds later or as a free agent! Now this draft really s@cks! BB is the worst GM! etc.

    Now I could understand that attitude if it was a first round pick and especially if it was a top 10 pick. [The GMs in Oakland were fired for just those moves year after year] But last year we were talking about a middle of the second round pick, after making two picks in the first round that were generally considered 'brilliant', and this year we are talking about an end of the third round pick. And a single pick out of around 8 picks made. I understand everyone has their 'Binkies' as does BB, but only BB actually has to defend his prior to 20/20 hind sight. And the reality of mid 2nd rounders is that only 1 in 4 picks made in that range ever contribute significantly to their team. For end of the third round it is more like 1 in 7. SO even if BB made the pick on the consensus perfectly valued player in round 2 he would only get it 'right' 25% of the time. For the #91 pick this year he would get it 'right' 17% of the time.

    And so getting freaked about one pick in a middle round that was unexpected or a monstrous stretch is totally irrational. (I guess that could be termed as a proper definition of being a 'fan') And to call the whole draft a disaster because of a single mid-round pick is crazy. (another classic definition for 'fan')

    Think of it this way - the difference between a player taken between 90 and 100 and one taken at 160-190 in terms of being a starter for a team is about 5% (17% to 12% sucess rate on draftees.) So even if BB totally blew his evaluation of Harmon he only gave up a 5% chance of making a better choice. And you are going to grade all 8 picks on a 5% error rate on a single one of them?