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Post Draft Blues

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to IrishMob7's comment:

     

    In response to rameakap's comment:

    Good post but I really disagree with your Harmon assessment.  I think it's rather silly for fans, who have no inside connections whatsoever, to lecture and say that we could have traded down and still got the player BB wanted.  You do not know that.  Nobody here knows how other team's draft boards are ordered.  For all we know, Harmon could have been taken at the 92nd pick.  Same thing with Tavon last year.  Just because Moron Kiper and McShay had him listed as a lower round choice doesn't mean other NFL GM's and coaches had him pegged there as well.

     

     

     

         Yeah...Harmon could have been taken at #92 by someone...and someone might have taken Tavon Wilson at #49. Too bad that it didn't go down that way. Sorry...but BB has had too many misses over the past few years to be given a pass when he does things like use the 33rd and 62nd overall picks in 2011 and 2008, respectively, on injury prone CBs, who never see the field...or reaches for two strong safeties in back to back years, in 2012 and 2013, squandering two other high picks in the process. Whether it's the scouting department, or poor judgment on Bill's part...things need to change.

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    In response to rtuinila's comment:

     

    By my count, your original premise is totally untrue. Most do not feel disappointed in this draft. How do you respond to that TexasPat

     



         By your count??? I recommend that you go back and review the last 2-3 pages on the forum. You'll find many posters questioning BB's draft selections. You'll also observe zero threads from exubberant posters, crowing in delight about how the Pats improved as a result of their draft choices. 

     

         This forum is the place for Pats fans to give their opinions on the team. But homers like yourself wish to muzzle complaints about BB and the team by resorting to personal attacks.  All I can tell you is that I sincerely hope that you homers are right. I'll be more than happy to admit to being wrong...should guys like Harmon and Tavon Wilson pan out. Unfortunately...  

     

     

     

    I think the issue with us the fans is the drafting philosophy and the talent evaluation. 

    I don't understand why we can't look at each pick on its own objectively?

    Trading out of 29 based on what most people thought of the high end talent in the draft and the value of the trade presented to them it seems to me that they made a good decision.

    Drafting Collins @ 52 could be open to criticism if you think that DT was more important. As far as the pick itself was concerned I think Collins will be a versitile player in the Pat's D scheme.

    Dobson @ 59 seems to be a fit pick. They needed a WR who has toughness and playmaking ability. The kid seems to have a great attitude and I think finally they may have hit at this position... time will tell.

    Logan Ryan @ 83 looks to be a tough hard nosed kid who will not shy away from a challenge. The criticism is his technique as it translates to man to man coverage. Based on the coaching the corners have been getting lately this could be an issue.

    Duron harmon @ 91... objectively i just don't know what to make of this pick. As Mike Reiss said this was a head scratcher.

    Josh Boyce @ 102... Well based on the number of bodies they brought in as FA's and this pick the team is admitting they have an issue at WR. As far as the pick itself goes the kid has speed an intelligence let's hope this translates in the Pat's O.

    Michael Buchanan @ 226 is a typical Patriot value pick in the 7th round. They identified a player who they felt was a lower round talent but because of an unrelated football issue the player dropped. If this kid can mature physically this pick might be this years Dennard.

    Steve Beauharnais @ 235... typical 7th round NFL pick. Seems like the Pat's identified a possible need and took a player that could possibly make the practice squad or like most 7th rounders will be looking for a job in late August. Tough to be overlly critical on this pick.

     




         Thanks for your reasoned objectivity. Good post! 

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seymonster. Show seymonster's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    In response to seymonster's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    In response to digger0862's comment:

     

    When your own gut opinions tell you that you can draft better than Belichick, it's time to stop listening to your gut.

     




    Really, could a blindfolded monkey holding a dart and tossing it at a board with names pinned to it do much worse?

     

     




     

    maybe the other 31 teams are using the monkey method, because they have all done worse.

     

     

     




    I doubt the Giants, Steelers, Ravens, Packers, Saints or Colts would swap their last 8 years for our last 8 years.

     

    And.... not many teams are all that eager to be either losing a SB or a Conference Championship every other year.

    So much for your claim that they all have done worse.

     



    I am sure most of them would.   If a team can grab one or two solid starters out of each draft, they are either a terrible team with many holes to fill, or the drafting is superb.  

    heres a little rundown of the impact players drafted since BB come on board.... and this doesn't even include draft picks traded for players like Welker, Moss, Dillon, Vrabel, Cox, Phifer, Washington, etc etc..

    Jones

    Dennard

    Solder

    Vereen

    Ridley

    Gronk

    Spikes

    Hernandez

    Zoltan

    Vollmer

    Mayo

    Slater

    Ghost

    Mankins

    Kaczur

    Cassel

    Wilfork

    Watson

    Warren

    Wilson

    Samuel

    Koppen

    Graham

    Branch

    Green

    Givens

    Seymour

    Light

    and the reach Brady

    ...

    this is an unprecedented period of sustained excellence.  much better than two impact starters drafted per year, a fantastic track record if you view it from earth, and not crazyland.

    ...

    most teams would give their eyeteeth to have the opportunity to lose a superbowl or conference championship game every other year.  if you really want to whine like an old woman about something, go and be a Panther fan.  Your complaints hold no water here because they are crock.

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to JohnHannahrulz's comment:

    As I stated in the draft thread (go and look) my guess was that BB targeted three or four players in the 1st (Trufant, Rhodes, Reid, good DT with depth at position) and when those players were gone (and they were) I knew BB was going to trade down. I wanted DE, but frankly there may have been depth  at the position but I don't think there was a single DE with as much upside as Chandler last year so why not trade down. Also I said the Bills trade back into 1st to get a QB. Ideally the Bills 2nd was higher than the Vikes, but no way is a divisional opponent going to trade with BB (even though Manuel would have been there at 29). Part of trading down is finding value later in the draft and not wasting a 1st on a marginal player you can get late in the 2nd or 3rd.

    RESPONSE: How was the selection of Harmon with the 91st overall pick a "value" pick?

    The media circus that surrounds the draft is always ready to annoint a draft winner(s) and a draft day loser(s). The simple truth is you can't properly evaluate a draft until approxiamately three years later. The media also plays a large role in determining the "impact" players. I like Kiper as much as the next guy, but do you rate his knowledge ahead of people like Ted Thompson, Belichick, Jerry Reese, and Ozzie (eg; people that have won SBs). I hope not.

    RESPONSE: My criticisms of the Pats' 2013 draft have little to do with Mel Kiper. My opionions are my own...after reading various draft publications and scouting reports available to fans...and based on what  saw of various players in college. By the way, I'm not hearing Mel Kiper or others criticize what Ozzie Newsome Jerry Reese, or Ted Thompson did. All had better drafts than the Patriots.  

    Now the Pats draft. People complained incessantly last year about the secondary and how the whole NFL was racking up yardage against the Pats pass D; and all belichick did was re-sign Talib, sign Adrian Wilson (2 yrs), sign Armstead (pass rush?), drafted LB/S hybrid (Collins) and draft 3 DBs in the first 5 rounds. It's pretty clear that BB is doing all he can to improve the secondary;

    RESPONSE: Using high draft choices to reach for players based on need is a recipe for disaster.

    if you thought he was going to sign Ronnie Lott and draft Deion, well, that was never going to happen and when the Pats trade down there is almost always a chorus jeers on this board. Even though some trades down have netted decent players.  For me the acquistions on D were about improving the pass rush and improving the 3rd down, nickel and dime defenses. BB is about situational football and a sub package coverage LB who can cover TEs or RBs is valuable even if he doesn't get 10+ sacks or 4+ INTs. Ryan might be the only DB drafted who can start in the near future, but that does not mean that you can't still acquire/draft players who are capable of playing well in certain situations (3rd and long). I want to reiterate that the higher the pick the greater the impact is  a concept often posited by draftniks and the media; the Pats (with their record) are seldom in a position to draft a top 5 impact player; that obviously does not preclude a player from being great all it does is slightly increase the expectation; high pick=high expectations (see Vikings this year). Belichick tried to improve his secondary and only time well tell if he did. Personally I see Ryan and Collins as potential starters and the other defensive players as sub-package or ST players. If BB wants to trade up for player he will (Jones, Mayo), if he doesn't then he can't find a partner or believes the value is in the later rounds.

    RESPONSE: Apparently, BB, after spending money on Adrian Wilson, and using the 48th overall pick last year to reach for Tavon Wilson, was still concerned about the safety position enough that he reached yet again for another prayer of a player, with his 91st overall pick. Why not just bite the bullet...stay at #29, and FIX the problem by taking a quality prospect like Matt Elam?

    If the secondary was complaint #1 then WR depth (loss of Welker) was board complaint #2 or 3 (see pass rush). Dobson with sub 4.5 and great hands looks like he could be good, but good in this offense could mean catching 40-50 balls (is he going to take touches away from Amendola, healthy Gronk, and Hernandez I doubt it). If anything WR depth means Brady could easily have more options or at least different options in the pass game. In this respect you can complain that Belichick did not draft the WR you wanted, but he did draft and acquire WRs to improve the team. Calvin Johnson (or his caliber) was not in this draft and the Pats don't usually draft so high that they can grab the best WR (also high bust rate). It's a copycat league and now more teams are trying to grab a speed TE (Hern) and power TE (Gronk) to alter their sets. BB often makes the playoffs; he does not necessarily need impact players, but players he can use in different roles (spread, 3WR sets etc....).

    RESPONSE: I have no complaints about the WRs taken...or the point where they were taken in the draft.

    The 7th round guys often end up on the practice squad. Dennard appears is the exception rather than the norm.

    RESPONSE: The Pats got lucky that Dennard slid, because of character concerns.

    Overall I see this a depth draft. Depth for the secondary and depth at WR with good LB. I would have liked to see a OLineman, but BB has done an okay job, and ,as aforementioned, this draft will withstand better evaluation in two or three years. At best could yeild three starters; at worst some solid contributers, but no superstars.

    Sorry about the length guys.



    RESPONSE: Thanks for the interesting post, Hogg.

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    Quite frankly the problem is BB's incessant stubborness in refusing to defer to the unquestionably higher football intellect that is TexasPat.  I mean what is BB's problem?  He continues to squander picks on choices that the observational intelligentsia like Mel Kiper know without question will produce nothing but mediocrity on the field. 

    Just makes you shake your head, doesn't it?

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Quite frankly the problem is BB's incessant stubborness in refusing to defer to the unquestionably higher football intellect that is TexasPat.  I mean what is BB's problem?  He continues to squander picks on choices that the observational intelligentsia like Mel Kiper know without question will produce nothing but mediocrity on the field. 

    Just makes you shake your head, doesn't it?



         Yet another brilliant, well reasoned response, from a hopeless homer...LOL!!! 

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to tanbass' comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    In response to tanass's comment:

    So not freaking out and crying about one questionable pick makes me a hopeless homer huh?

    RESPONSE: You continue to freak out and cry about my opinion...you quack!




     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from seattlepat70. Show seattlepat70's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to ATJ's comment:

    Quite frankly the problem is BB's incessant stubborness in refusing to defer to the unquestionably higher football intellect that is TexasPat.  I mean what is BB's problem?  He continues to squander picks on choices that the observational intelligentsia like Mel Kiper know without question will produce nothing but mediocrity on the field. 

    Just makes you shake your head, doesn't it?



    Actually TP is not completely off. The crowd is not that dumb. It actually has a pretty good record, especially in the early rounds.

    It would be great if PE could supply the chart again. That chart showed the likelihood of success depending on where the player was picked in the draft. 1st rounders had 70-80% likelihood of success. Most of the picks in the draft, tend to mirror the assessments of the draft "gurus". So by transitivity (I believe that's what it's called), the "gurus" have about 70-80% success in the first round. Lower in the second of course. 

    You can't use NEP's success at getting to the playoffs as the ultimate proof that they draft well. Teamwork and execution are big factors that good coaching can bring to elevate the performance of a collection of lesser talents.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to seattlepat70's comment:

    You can't use NEP's success at getting to the playoffs as the ultimate proof that they draft well. Teamwork and execution are big factors that good coaching can bring to elevate the performance of a collection of lesser talents.




         What these idiot homers refuse to understand is that the brilliance of BB as a coach, and of Brady as a QB, have camoflagued the many drafting errors that BB has made. As Brady continues to age, the cracks caused by so many wasted high picks will begin to show.   

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

     

    .....

    You have NEVER won an argument with me here. NEVER. Not a single one. I own you. I always have. I always will. And your goofy little fake accounts can't change that.

     

     

     

    You're starting to sound like a Taylor Swift song.

     




    didnt know u were a fan muzz

     



    I have daughters.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

         Here's an article which argues that Duron Harmon was actually well worth the 91st overall pick: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1624721-new-england-patriots-in-defense-of-duron-harmon

         Folks...this just goes to show how a skilled writer can find discover and mold a set of stats and numbers, to formulate any position. It also shows the great lengths that the esteemed members of the Ostrich Society, manned by tanass and his hopeless homer buds, will go to back BB in all things. A reliable source has indeed confirmed that the Society shelled out some big bucks to get this article written!

         LOL!!!    

         Seriously, I agree with most deverything in the article, except the part about "there be no guarantees that Harmon would be around in the 6th or 7th round". BS. Folks...sometimes strategic gambles have to be made. The odds were in the Pats' favor that Harmon would have been around much, much later. Sorry you homers...but BB had better options available to him at pick #91 than Harmon. Nor am I buying that BB could not find a trade partner with whom to trade down.   

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

           1

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

         What these idiot homers refuse to understand is that the brilliance of BB as a coach, and of Brady as a QB, have camoflagued the many drafting errors that BB has made. As Brady continues to age, the cracks caused by so many wasted high picks will begin to show.    



    Spare me.  You have been saying this for practically forever and it has yet to happen.  The team will eventually struggle by definition and then I am sure you will dance around here telling us you saw it all coming.  Literally every metric ranging from the team's record, to starters drafted, to all pros drafted, to pro bowlers drafted, to the overall value of players drafted per some sort of statistic like CarAV on profootballreference says that BB has been one of the better GMs in the league since he came to NE.  You have literally no evidence (except harping on a few picks you didn't like) to support your claim.  Guess what genius?  Every GM has bad drafts.  Does Ozzie Newsome suck because of his drafts in 2004 and 2005.  Does Kevin Colbert suck because of his drafts in 2008 and 2011?  Does Ted Thompson suck because of his drafts in 2007 and 2010?  I could go on all day.  Good personnel men have bad drafts.  It happens.  Learn to deal with it instead of playing a dam drama queen and screaming till you are blue in the face about how BB is ruining the team.

     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

     

         What these idiot homers refuse to understand is that the brilliance of BB as a coach, and of Brady as a QB, have camoflagued the many drafting errors that BB has made. As Brady continues to age, the cracks caused by so many wasted high picks will begin to show.    

     



     

    Spare me.  You have been saying this for practically forever and it has yet to happen.

    RESPONSE: What a croc...LOL!!! Has Tom Brady turned 36 before? But, that's okay homer...go ahead and keep that head of your firmly planted in the sand.

     The team will eventually struggle by definition and then I am sure you will dance around here telling us you saw it all coming.

    RESPONSE: LOL!!! That's why I was hoping so much that BB would use that 91st pick to take a flier on Matt Barkley or Ryan Nassib. Can't win in this league without a top flight QB. Whewn Brady goes...who takes over? If the Pats aren't prepared for that day, the team will struggle. Unlike you, who see this as inevitable, I prefer to have my team take steps to prevent it. Drafting a special teamer and a back-up safety won't do it.  

     Literally every metric ranging from the team's record, to starters drafted, to all pros drafted, to pro bowlers drafted, to the overall value of players drafted per some sort of statistic like CarAV on profootballreference says that BB has been one of the better GMs in the league since he came to NE.

    RESPONSE: You homers continue to trot this out. But, how many studs has BB drafted since 2005?

     You have literally no evidence (except harping on a few picks you didn't like) to support your claim.

    RESPONSE: NO EVIDENCE?? Go ahead, Einstein...name the studs BB has drafted since 2005. Now, compare and contrast that, with graveyard of high draft picks: RB Laurence Maroney (21st overall, 2006), WR Chad Jackson (36th overall 2006), TE David Thomas (86th overall 2006), S Brandon Meriweather (24th overall 2007), CB Terrence Wheatley (62nd overall, 2008), LB Shawn Crable (78th overall, 2008), QB Kevin O'Connell (94th overall, 2008), SS Patrick Chung (34th overall, 2009), DT Ron Brace (40th overall, 2009), CB Darius Butler (41st overall, 2009), WR Brandon Tate (83rd overall, 2009), LB Tyrone McKenzie (97th overall [pick, 2009), DE/LB Jermaine Cunningham (53rd overall pick, 2010), WR Taylor Price (90th overall pick, 2010), CB Ras-I Dowling (33rd overall pick, 2011), SS Tavon Wilson 48th overall pick, 2012), and DE Jake Bequette (90th overall pick, 2012).  

     Guess what genius?  Every GM has bad drafts.

    RESPONSE: Every GM has the above listed track record? Any G/M with this kind or record would be uncerimoniously canned.

     Does Ozzie Newsome suck because of his drafts in 2004 and 2005.

    RESPONSE: What does Ozzie's drafts in 2004 and 2005 have to do with now In 2004, he moved up to draft QB Kyle Boller...because his team had no QB. Ozzie was smart enough to realize that he had to fond one. He took another chance on a QB from little known Delaware in 2008. How did that turn out?

     Does Kevin Colbert suck because of his drafts in 2008 and 2011?  Does Ted Thompson suck because of his drafts in 2007 and 2010?  I could go on all day.

    RESPONSE: Colbert has done wonders in Pittsburgh. He's won two championshions SBs since 2005. How many have the Patriots won? Ted Thompson took a chance in 2005 on a sliding QB named Aaron Rodgers...even though he had a greaty, but aging QB at the time. How bout how he swindled BB to move up, to draft Clay Matthews? How bout how he swindled BB again in 2006, ending up with WR Greg Jennings? The Packers have won a championship since 2005.    

     Good personnel men have bad drafts.  It happens.

    RESPONSE: Whatever!! That drafting tale of woe costs the Patriots several more championships. Again...any other G/M with that kind of record would have been fired.

     Learn to deal with it instead of playing a dam drama queen and screaming till you are blue in the face about how BB is ruining the team.

    RESPONSE: You learn to deal with it! I'm sick and tired of seeing the Pats crumble in the play-offs. Brady and coach BB need to have better talent to surround themselves with, Unfortunately, their great coach and horrid G/M are one in the same.




     
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  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Post Draft Blues

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    Does anyone ever really read his convoluted retorts?  It's always so cluttered.   Has he ever said where he's from, originally?

    He literally just called BB's last 3 A rated drafts "horrid" when it's beyond clear BB is the greatest GM of all time to be able to have such highly competitive teams, even if they aren't annual juggernauts.

    I think he's a 20-25 year old bandwagon teenie bopper type who started watching this team in 2007 because he wanted to chose a team that was better than the Cowboys.

    That's what I think.

     




         Why am I not surprised...LOL!!!

     

     

     

     
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