In response to zbellino's comment:
My last post:
RESPONSE: You're really selling Mickey Loomis short. He tranformed the Aints to the Saints...and won a SB in the process. For openers, you're omitting his role in out-hustling the Dolphins in signing QB Drew Brees. That move alone turned the franchise around...from a joke to a repectable team. He also hired coach Sean Payton...one of the best in the game...Bountygate notwithstanding.
Yes...there were some draft misses. But there were also the followng hits, since 2006:
1.) 2006: SS Roman Harper (43rd overall pick), OG Jahri Evans (108th overall pick), DE Rob Ninkovich (135th overall), WR Marques Colston (252nd overall);
2.) 2007: LT Jermon Bushrod (125th overall);
3.) 2008: CB Tracy Porter (40th overall), OT Carl Nicks (164th overall);
4.) 2009: P Thomas Morstead (164th overall);
5.) 2010: CB Patrick Robinson (32nd overall); TE Jimmy Graham (95th overall);
6.) 2011: DE Cameron Jordan (24th overall);
7.) 2012: Busted out.
You have Ninkovich, Porter, and Robinson as "hits"?
Really, I live here. Those are what you call busts.
RESPONSE: First off...my intention in saying that you were selling Loomis short was not to compare him with BB...but just to say that I thought you were selling him short. But, you've turned this into a Loomis/BB comparison.
That said...the Saints got Nink with the 135th overall in 2006...and he's turned in a very good player...only not with them. He is similar to what the Pats got out of Mike Vrabel, when they picked him up after the Steelers released him. The fault in the Saints not taking advantage of his skills lies with the Saints' coaching staff...not with Loomis...who certainly got value with this pick.
As for Porter, you're conveniently leaving out his SB clinching interception which prevented the hated Horseface from winning a second SB. Yet...you want to say that Porter is a complete bust? Robinson was drafted in 2010, and has started for them. He started every game as a rookie...and has been an intermittent starter since.
A 2nd and 1st round corner with 15 picks in 8 seasons between them, no Pro-Bowls? By your logic, then, Patrick Chung wasn't a bust. He's got as many turnovers created as Porter in one less season, and one less than Robinson in his first three. Not to mention Robinson was actually a much higher draft selection.
RESPONSE: Perhaps you need to reaccess your logic. I don't recall Patrick Chung making any big plays in 2011 that won the Pats that SB, like Porter did in 2009. Do you?
Patrick Robinson was a much higher pick than Chung?? Robinson was the 32nd overall pick in the 2010 draft. Chung was the 34th overall pick in the 2009 draft. Plus, Robinson hasn't been injury prone to the same degree as the fragile Chung.
And people will always love the play Porter made in the SB, but no one was sad to see him go, because he wasn't very good as a player. He was essentially an average nickel corner, but had for a high second. He now plays for another team on an average contract. Chung = those guys.
RESPONSE: For the reasons listed above, Chung does not = those guys.
And trust me, Harper is what Meriweather was in NE. He is a player that makes big plays but frustrates the bejeesus out of half the fans. Yeha, he is on ESPN but he isn't disciplined.
RESPONSE: Harper and Darren Sharper were both huge in 2009, and were instrumental in leading the Saints to their lone title. Want some logic? To refer to any player drafted who makes big plays contributing to winning a championship as a bust is absurd. Even if that players' career falls short of expectations, if he stepped up in a big way and was a major contributor to his team winning a title...then that team certainly got a return on that player.
And if Ninkovich, a role player for another team, isn't a bust, then neither is David Thomas for BB, who plays a good deal for New Orleans.
RESPONSE: Really Z...Thomas was a third round pick, who went 86th overall in 2006. Nink was a 5th rounder, the 135th player selected in the 2006 draft. Nink is a "role player" for the Patriots? I thought he was a starting DE last year with the Pats...and is one of their better defenders from a standpoint of making big plays (fumble recoveries, sacks, and picks). Thomas is nothing more than Graham's caddie.
Not to mention you left out 2005 where the Saints also "busted out."
RESPONSE: My criticisms of the Patriots' drafts run from 2006-present. Therefore, it is not relevant what the Saints did in 2005.
3 good offensive lineman, an awesome TE and a good WR and a solid, but over-rated safety. If I am selling Loomis short, you are selling BB waaaay short.
RESPONSE: Again...you are conveniently refusing to credit Loomis for hiring head coach Sean Payton, and outhustling Miami to sign Drew Brees. Can we agree that finding a top flight coach and a franchise QB are the most important tasks that an NFL general manager is asked to perform? Why no credit for Loomis here? As for BB, he didn't hire himself...and, let's face it, he was given a gift from high above with the 199th overall pick in the 2000 NFL draft.
As for the draft picks, since 2006, what team has drafted more pro-bowlers, the Saints or the Patriots? I'll look it up later, but, if I'm not mistaken, Harper, Evans, Nicks, Morstead, Bushrod, and Graham have been pro-bowlers...while the Pats boast Gronk, McCourty, Gostkowski, and Meriweather. Futhermore, since 2006-12, BB has had 28 shots at the top 100 players (20 of those selections came from 2009-12), from 2006-12. Loomis has had just 16, during the same time period. BB has done a great job of stockpiling high picks...but a lousy job in selecting the right guys. Loomis, by my analysis, has hit on 9 of his 16 high picks...while BB has hit on just 10 of these 28 (and I credited him for Meriweather and Vereen, among those 10). NOT GOOD.
He's been quite a bit better than Loomis. Criminy, what the New Orleans fans would do to have something as simple as Ridley ...they've said as much watching Pats games with me, after being tortured with ridiulously high busts like Ingram and Bush, neither of whom eclipsed 602 yards for the Saints as runners.
RESPONSE: Ingram was a horrible pick, But Bush, though overdrafted, contributed. Are you seriously claiming that Shane Vereen's contributions to the Pats are equal to or greater to what Reggie Bush provided the Saints?
And that is a hjuge part of the key. Loomis has had so many high selections over that span, and missed with many. The team is constantly trying to jetison useless first round contracts.
RESPONSE: Sorry my friend...but you're badly mistaken. Loomis has had just 16 top 100 picks to work with, from 2006-12...while BB has had 28.
Solder, Vollmer, Mankins, Ridley, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Jones, Dennard, DMC, Spikes, Mayo, Ghostowski, Mesko, Slater, Meriweather (+ I guess I can count Chung and Thomas as "hits" because they are more or less equivalent to players you are calling "hits" for NOLA).
RESPONSE: Mankins was drafted in 2005. Thus, he's not part of this discussion, which centers from 2006-12. Overall, the Pats have added more contributors...but the Saints appear to have added more pro-bowl players. Furthermore, the Pats had far more chances to succeed in the draft, having a total of 66 overall selections, to the Saints 42 overall selections, from 2006-12.
Loomis hasn't been terrible, but he's been average. BB's been above what Loomis has been. So he has been above average.
RESPONSE: Sorry...but the stats don't bear you out...and...again, you have completely failed to credit Loomis for the great moves he made in hiring Sean Payton and signing of Drew Brees. But...if you're tyalking strictly the draft...he's been slightly above average. Selecting Graham, Jahri Evans, Colston, and Nicks were great, great picks.
The only haul over that span that I would take over BB's haul is the Giants' and possibly Steelers.
RESPONSE: Really? Can you back this up? What about the Ravens? What about Green Bay?
No, BB isn't the unquestioned greatest drafter in NFL history like some people here say. I don't even think he is the best over the last 8. I reserve that for a couple other guys who have had amazing draft runs over that period. I will personally contend that his failures drafting to the defensive side of the ball have really hindered this team, making it one dimensional. But he also isn't "average" or "terrible" as some people here say as well.
RESPONSE: Sorry...but take away that 2010 draft, and BB has been pretty awful at picking players.
He's one of the best in the league. If he weren't NE wouldn't be this good so consistently.
RESPONSE: Wrongo! The brilliance of Tom Brady as a QB and the greatness of BB as the greatest coach in the history of the game have done much to camoflague BB's failings in the war room, on draft days.
NE has a great offense, if that doesn't work, their defense can't pick them up. But the thesis that a SB win makes a better drafter, is not true at all.
RESPONSE: What are you talking about? Whose thesis? Yours??
The pure symmetry of this is amazing and it really begs a question before this season: I would love an answer to the question.
In 2009 the Saints grabbed vet FA Darren Sharper, a 34 year old 5 time Pro-bowl safety who saw limited time and diminished results in Minnesota. He exploded for 9 picks, three for TDs in the regular season. He made their mediocre defense "good enough" for one season. They haven't been remotely as good since he left. With him calling signals, they forced 9 turnovers that post-season alone, (New England has created a grand total of 7[!!!!!] since 2007 in the playoffs over three times as many games) and won three games in a row despite committing 4 turnovers themselves. Before Sharper they didn't even make the playoffs, and since he's left they've missed it once and made it twice, and basically lost games they should have won because their defense doesn't create turnovers anymore in big games (3 in three games, on the strength of 2 against the Lions).
Along comes a 34 year old vet FA safety, with 5 Probowls, but who also saw less success and playing time in his team last season. His name is Adrian Wilson. If Adrian Wilson has a rennaissance season like Sharper did, actually gathering MVP votes, and basically dominating the backfield, and all of a sudden NE's defense has one magical season, they actually close a couple playoff games out, maybe grab 8 or 9 playoff turnovers (essentially doubling their total from the last five years combined) Superbowl Parade and all that .... would that make BB a better drafter all of a sudden?
RESPONSE: If Adrian Wilson pulls a Sharper with the Pats (and I hope he does), how does that make BB "a better drafter"??? If that happens...it will serve to camoflague the squandered 48th overall pick last year on Tavon Wilson, and the 91st this year spent on Harmon.
Z and guys...I hope that I'm proven to be dead wrong in my accessments of BB's drafts. I'd like nothing better than to see each guy BB selected become a pro-bowler, and have you guys spend the entire season having the homers feed me crow. But...sorry. I don't see this draft as being a good one for the Pats. I see more wasted opportunities. This is based on what I read, seen, heard, past history, and my own deductions. In other words, it's simply my opinion...which I have put out here for discussion. The fact that BB is now blantantly disregarding his own scouts is cause for concern.
ONE LAST THING, Z. Please don't take our difference of opinion above personal. After all, we're just two guys talking football. You and I are among the few long time regulars here...going back 7-10 years. I've always enjoyed reading your posts...and have found you to be one of the most knowledgable posters on this board. I wish I could say the same about Rusty, Tanass, and my own personal punching bag on this forum, UD6, a/k/a "The Dog(ggggg)". But, oh well!