Projecting Chandler Jones

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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

     

    Just trying to get a gauge on how others feel about his 1st year playing, his effectiveness andf his potential and ceiling going forward. Sadly the reason I am posting this is because Im starting to think we may not be getting much help in that department with the Pats stalling on Abraham. They will most likely draft a DT, but not a DE this year soooo, Maybe we have the CFL guys to look forward too.

    I thought C.J. was surprisingly good at the point of attack in stopping the run and held his own in setting the edge. Def. played stronger than I envisioned. IN terms of pass rush, I dont think he ever was the same after his ankle injury and I think without the injury, he easily puts up 12 sacks, maybe more. I like the fact that he isnt just an upfield speed guy but CAN beat his man with speed. He has these herky jerky, hesitation moves that allow them to be versatile and I thought he showed a lot of moves for a rookie. Usually guys have trouble early with counter moves but he has shown he cant be played one way. So im wondering if the Pats knowing this are thinking they will add someone but not gonna spend too much because they feel C.J. is ready to take that next step and I agree he is, but I just think he needs a better player opposite him so teams dont just start chipping him and make him ineffectve. Does anyone know if this Armstead guy can rush the passer and what are folks expectation of Jake Bequette? Busto or big jump 2nd year into playing time as sub rusher??  For a 3rd round pick, I would expect something this year or dare I say it....

    thoughts on this anyone?  Im starting to get a little concerned so should I feel better about it with CJ here?  I just dont see how the defense changing that much with the same secondary returning. I hope we get one of these nice CB  prospects and go ahead and sign a pass rusher already. Not sold on any draft prospects outside the 1st in terms of rushing. Any names out there as possible sleepers in the 6th round?

     




    he may turn out to be great but very few- if any -put up 12 sacks, maybe more, "easily"

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I would say this guy is not as gifted in the speed department as McGinnest was when he came out - Willie ran a 4.5 when he came out...he was a total freak. I also think that as gifted as Willie was, Jones looks like he will be a better pass rusher than Willie. I remember Willie doing nothing but bull rushing his first three years in the league...Chandler looks years ahead of him in flexibility and technique.

     



    Agree that Willie was a unique athlete, 6'5" 255 pounds out of college with that 4.5 forty is why he became the fourth overall pick. That being said we all benefited from Jones having a bad combine, the kid is kind of shy (youngest brother syndrome?) and maybe flinched at being put under the microscope, but his pro day was a lot more impressive.

     

    PCMIV, Jones can probable play standing up but it's not a prerequisite that he does, even in the 3/4 OVER the Pat's used to run, Willie would line up on the line like a defensive end and drop into a three point stance, it wasn't always a secret he would be rushing the QB.  It was very rare that he was asked to drop back into coverage but the same thing could be said about Vince Wilfork dropping back into zone coverage and grabbing a pick. 

    With 2 career picks Vince still needs three more to catch up to Willie's 5 but Willie also is credited with 29 career passes defensed.  Sometimes being tall with long arms is enough in pass coverage, especially in a shortened space like the short side of the field or end zone.

     




    True. And there was a play last year that I remember Chandler playing in a stand up outside roll - he moves pretty darn well - I could see him potentially being a pretty diverse weapon for us. When he was in college I thought he was going to add ten pounds as a pro and make a really good 43 defensive end someday (and that stil may be the plan) but I think he has shown he can do a lot of stuff.

    I'd love to see this front add another playmaker like him.

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Playing Chandler Jones primarily as a defensive end is a bad move, with a nasty D tackle next to Wilfork and Armstead, Jones should flourish.  Pete Carroll asking Willie McGinest to bulk up and play defensive end is how he injured his back.  Asking a 260 pound guy to wrestle with 320 pound offensive tackles is a bad move.  If we do the right thing in the draft Jones will have a breakout year.

     



         Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, DeMarcus Ware, John Abraham, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense. 

     

     

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    The dude disappeared completely after the first ¼ season.  Yes he got hurt (everyone does) but the fact he never regained the early production is a bit concerning.   Hopefully he rebounds next year or I’m sure the BUST threads will be starting by week 10.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Playing Chandler Jones primarily as a defensive end is a bad move, with a nasty D tackle next to Wilfork and Armstead, Jones should flourish.  Pete Carroll asking Willie McGinest to bulk up and play defensive end is how he injured his back.  Asking a 260 pound guy to wrestle with 320 pound offensive tackles is a bad move.  If we do the right thing in the draft Jones will have a breakout year.

     



         Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, John Abraham, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense. 

     

     




    I think he's a natural 43 end myself (with some atheltiscism) to do some more stuff if needed, but I do worry about this guy getting hurt as well. Jones has some unusually long limbs, I can't tell you how many times last season I thought he was done by the way the pile fell on him. His legs and arms are always getting stuck under someone...he's going to have to bulk up a little bit if he's going to stay a full time end.

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Playing Chandler Jones primarily as a defensive end is a bad move, with a nasty D tackle next to Wilfork and Armstead, Jones should flourish.  Pete Carroll asking Willie McGinest to bulk up and play defensive end is how he injured his back.  Asking a 260 pound guy to wrestle with 320 pound offensive tackles is a bad move.  If we do the right thing in the draft Jones will have a breakout year.

     



         Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, DeMarcus Ware, John Abraham, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense. 

     

     



    BB switched away from the 3-4 because more teams started to run it and the players needed to run a 3-4 became Harder and harder to get picking at the bottom of rounds. 

     
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  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, DeMarcus Ware, John Abraham, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense.  



    Ware and Suggs both play outside linebacker in a 3/4.  Harrison is a linebacker.  

    Dwight Freeny was a product of Tony Dungy's undersized but fast D line he became famous with on the Vikings. He had Randle and Thomas, two all pro defensive tackles who were very similar to Wilfork, low center of gravity, incredibly strong bull rushers.  The Colt's tried to recreate that with Larry Triplett and a host of others but didn't have the DT talent, that's why they were easy to ground and pound in the playoffs, not unlike us the past few years using the 4 man front.  Freeney is also a unique player in that he's barely 6 feet tall but weights nearly 270 pounds which gives him some serious leverage to play defensive end, he's nothing like Jones at 6'5."

    The Giants have had some mastodons inside with Paul and their ends, we don't.  I didn't say Jones couldn't pack on some pounds and exclusively play defensive end in a 4/3, just that it's more likely when Belichick has the defensive line personnel, he'll switch back to the 3/4 because it provides more versatility.  He stopped playing the 3/4 because Ty Warren's career ended prematurely, I'm sure they would have reconsidered keeping Seymour had they known, but how could they...?

     

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    Didn't they line him up on the weakside most of the time last year?  And isn't the elephant usually on the weakside too? 

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Playing Chandler Jones primarily as a defensive end is a bad move, with a nasty D tackle next to Wilfork and Armstead, Jones should flourish.  Pete Carroll asking Willie McGinest to bulk up and play defensive end is how he injured his back.  Asking a 260 pound guy to wrestle with 320 pound offensive tackles is a bad move.  If we do the right thing in the draft Jones will have a breakout year.

     



         Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, John Abraham, DeMarcus Ware, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense. 

     

    I think he's a natural 43 end myself (with some atheltiscism) to do some more stuff if needed, but I do worry about this guy getting hurt as well. Jones has some unusually long limbs, I can't tell you how many times last season I thought he was done by the way the pile fell on him. His legs and arms are always getting stuck under someone...he's going to have to bulk up a little bit if he's going to stay a full time end.



    RESPONSE: When BB drafted Jones, he saw him as the second coming of Jason Pierre Paul. He doesn't appear to be a McGinest type. BB is hoping that Hightower will be McGinest like. Though it's a bit too early to tell, Hightower appears to be a younger version of Roman Pfeifer. 

         As for injuries, so much success in the NFL is predicated by staying healthy. Last season, the Ravens got healthy at the right time. In the AFC title game, had Aqib Talib not gone down, it may have been a different game.  Had Gronk not gotten hurt last year, Tom Brady might have won that elusive 4th SB. Each year, it seems as if the Patriots are having too many problems with injuries...which has led me to question the quality of their training staff, medical staff, and training regiments.

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    RESPONSE: When BB drafted Jones, he saw him as the second coming of Jason Pierre Paul. He doesn't appear to be a McGinest type. BB is hoping that Hightower will be McGinest like. Though it's a bit too early to tell, Hightower appears to be a younger version of Roman Pfeifer.

         As for injuries, so much success in the NFL is predicated by staying healthy. Last season, the Ravens got healthy at the right time. In the AFC title game, had Aqib Talib not gone down, it may have been a different game.  Had Gronk not gotten hurt last year, Tom Brady might have won that elusive 4th SB. Each year, it seems as if the Patriots are having too many problems with injuries...which has led me to question the quality of their training staff, medical staff, and training regiments.



    There may no no definitive answer to the Chandler Jones question, we won't know unless BB spends a high pick on a DT and they make the obvious move back to the 3/4.  Either way he plays so many sub packages it's hard to tell sometimes.

    You might have a point with the injuries, TrueChamp brought up a good point some time back that the Pats lost their longtime strength and conditioning coach and since then have been snake bitten by injury.

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

     

    RESPONSE: When BB drafted Jones, he saw him as the second coming of Jason Pierre Paul. He doesn't appear to be a McGinest type. BB is hoping that Hightower will be McGinest like. Though it's a bit too early to tell, Hightower appears to be a younger version of Roman Pfeifer.

         As for injuries, so much success in the NFL is predicated by staying healthy. Last season, the Ravens got healthy at the right time. In the AFC title game, had Aqib Talib not gone down, it may have been a different game.  Had Gronk not gotten hurt last year, Tom Brady might have won that elusive 4th SB. Each year, it seems as if the Patriots are having too many problems with injuries...which has led me to question the quality of their training staff, medical staff, and training regiments.

     



    There may no no definitive answer to the Chandler Jones question, we won't know unless BB spends a high pick on a DT and they make the obvious move back to the 3/4.  Either way he plays so many sub packages it's hard to tell sometimes.

    You might have a point with the injuries, TrueChamp brought up a good point some time back that the Pats lost their longtime strength and conditioning coach and since then have been snake bitten by injury.



         I'm expecting BB to draft either a 4-3 style DE, a DT, or a DB...depending on whoever is available by the 29th overall pick. If no one particularly appetitzing is available, I expect that BB will trade down, with some QB hungry team.

         I have brought up the issue of the Pats medical staff, and strength and conditioning program, several times previously. Over the past two years in particular, injuries to key players late in the season may have cost the Patriots championships. It can be argued that the Pats would have beaten the Giants in SB 46, had they had a healthy Gronk...and would have beaten the Ravens last year, had they had a healthy Gronk, and Talib had not gone down in the AFC Title game, with a pulled hammie. Bad luck...or poor doctoring/conditioning? You be the judge.

     

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

         I'm expecting BB to draft either a 4-3 style DE, a DT, or a DB...depending on whoever is available by the 29th overall pick. If no one particularly appetitzing is available, I expect that BB will trade down, with some QB hungry team.

         I have brought up the issue of the Pats medical staff, and strength and conditioning program, several times previously. Over the past two years in particular, injuries to key players late in the season may have cost the Patriots championships. It can be argued that the Pats would have beaten the Giants in SB 46, had they had a healthy Gronk...and would have beaten the Ravens last year, had they had a healthy Gronk, and Talib had not gone down in the AFC Title game, with a pulled hammie. Bad luck...or poor doctoring/conditioning? You be the judge.

     



    I'm sure there are many team that would point to injury and say it cost them a championship, every season.  The Patriots aren't special in that regard.

    The Patriots defense has always let personnel dictate which defense they ran, in 2003 when Ted Johnson went down for the year they ran the 4/3 almost exclusively, but they still had beef on the interior so that it made Willie McGinest's job playing defensive end that much easier, they also played Bobby Hamilton and Anthony Pleasant at end situationally to wear down the offensive tackles on the end of the line. 

    I don't have anything against the 4/3, but the 3/4 has been our base defense for so long, Belichick is a big reason the 3/4 is en vogue.  I don't think he'll change to a less flexible defense that only asks his linemen to rush up field if he has a choice, he didn't last season even with the four man front, you'd still see Jones or Nincovich drop back into coverage like when Rob picked off the Texans in the playoffs.

    I don't know why you seem to be taking it so personally or acting like you have some inside info that the rest of us don't have, I make my predictions based on history, not because I know the inner working of Belichick's mind.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

         I'm expecting BB to draft either a 4-3 style DE, a DT, or a DB...depending on whoever is available by the 29th overall pick. If no one particularly appetitzing is available, I expect that BB will trade down, with some QB hungry team.

         I have brought up the issue of the Pats medical staff, and strength and conditioning program, several times previously. Over the past two years in particular, injuries to key players late in the season may have cost the Patriots championships. It can be argued that the Pats would have beaten the Giants in SB 46, had they had a healthy Gronk...and would have beaten the Ravens last year, had they had a healthy Gronk, and Talib had not gone down in the AFC Title game, with a pulled hammie. Bad luck...or poor doctoring/conditioning? You be the judge.

     

     



    I'm sure there are many team that would point to injury and say it cost them a championship, every season.  The Patriots aren't special in that regard.

     

    The Patriots defense has always let personnel dictate which defense they ran, in 2003 when Ted Johnson went down for the year they ran the 4/3 almost exclusively, but they still had beef on the interior so that it made Willie McGinest's job playing defensive end that much easier, they also played Bobby Hamilton and Anthony Pleasant at end situationally to wear down the offensive tackles on the end of the line. 

    I don't have anything against the 4/3, but the 3/4 has been our base defense for so long, Belichick is a big reason the 3/4 is en vogue.  I don't think he'll change to a less flexible defense that only asks his linemen to rush up field if he has a choice, he didn't last season even with the four man front, you'd still see Jones or Nincovich drop back into coverage like when Rob picked off the Texans in the playoffs.

    I don't know why you seem to be taking it so personally or acting like you have some inside info that the rest of us don't have, I make my predictions based on history, not because I know the inner working of Belichick's mind.

     [/QUOTE

         It is you who are obviously taking this personally. You have asked the question, "Why has BB gotten away from the 3-4?" All I have done is to supply a plausable explanation. A 3-4 is a good defense, if a team has the personnel to run it. The current Patriots' "D" personnel appears to be a bit of a hodge-podge of 4-3 and 3-4 players.       

     

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    In response to PatsEng's comment:

     

    I think Jones slowed down as the year progressed, which isn't uncommon for a rook. Teams started to get some film on him and take notice on him so they were game planning around him. If the Pats can add another pass rusher opposite him or interior help to push the pocket and prevent QB's from stepping up I think Jones is going to have a big year next year. The biggest thing is if the refs will start to call holds against him. Tons of times early last year T's were holding him and it wasn't being called. Hopefully he's gotten enough of a rep that Refs will start to call it.

     



    Agree. Plus the fact that he was hurt during the playoffs.

     

    As for the secondary - after Talib and Dennard became the starters it was pretty good. Why is it so many do not see that. I think we have a good set of starters IF we can cover TEs. So one or both Wilsons will need to step up in this way. We do NEED more quality depth in the secondary.

    And we NEED a better pass rush. Give this group back there a better pass rush and you will see a tough D to pass against.

    I also think the NEED fo upgrade at DT is a big one.

     



     

    Its not that I didnt realize the secondary played better with Dennard and Talib but a couple concerns are...  Is talib a guy you can count on in 16 games? Will he be there in the postseason. Is Dennard gonna have a setback or continue his strong play(a string of recent pats DBs have come back in year 2 and regressed) Will Dennard be in training camp. Both Dennard and Talib has hammy issues last year. Both of them play man/press which is what made our d better. Arrington is strictly a zone player outside so im sorrry If Im a little concerned. We are ONE injury away from being an atrocious secondary again so Im hoping there is a better pass rush to offset that this year. thats all



    You are right to be concerned about either Talib or Dennard being on the field when they are needed. But it is a problem everyone in the NFL has in terms of health. Injuries are more a part of the game than ever. That is why BB has had success through paying bucks for 53 players and not paying more for the top 14 players. And we have the added issues of Dennards possible jail time and Talib only signed for one year.

    I think we are on the same page on the D line and the secondary.

    I would add I would like to see the secondary coaches traded to the Jets. We give them a 2nd round pick and pay the coaches salaries but they have to use those coaches.

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    In response to TexasPat's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Playing Chandler Jones primarily as a defensive end is a bad move, with a nasty D tackle next to Wilfork and Armstead, Jones should flourish.  Pete Carroll asking Willie McGinest to bulk up and play defensive end is how he injured his back.  Asking a 260 pound guy to wrestle with 320 pound offensive tackles is a bad move.  If we do the right thing in the draft Jones will have a breakout year.

     



         Have you heard of Dwight Freeney, Elvis Dumervil, John Abraham, DeMarcus Ware, Terrell Suggs, James Harrison, and Jason Pierre Paul? They are much smaller guys weight-wise than the 320 lb. masterdons you mentioned, above. But, each were/are sensational pass-rushers. Jones doesn't appear to be OLB material. You may recall that McGinest was a bit of a late bloomer as an effective OLB...after being a somewhat mediocre 4-3 DE. I see Jones as a 4-3 DE...not a 3-4 OLB. So does BB...which explains why he's deviated away from the 3-4 defense. 

     

    I think he's a natural 43 end myself (with some atheltiscism) to do some more stuff if needed, but I do worry about this guy getting hurt as well. Jones has some unusually long limbs, I can't tell you how many times last season I thought he was done by the way the pile fell on him. His legs and arms are always getting stuck under someone...he's going to have to bulk up a little bit if he's going to stay a full time end.

     



    RESPONSE: When BB drafted Jones, he saw him as the second coming of Jason Pierre Paul. He doesn't appear to be a McGinest type. BB is hoping that Hightower will be McGinest like. Though it's a bit too early to tell, Hightower appears to be a younger version of Roman Pfeifer. 

     

         As for injuries, so much success in the NFL is predicated by staying healthy. Last season, the Ravens got healthy at the right time. In the AFC title game, had Aqib Talib not gone down, it may have been a different game.  Had Gronk not gotten hurt last year, Tom Brady might have won that elusive 4th SB. Each year, it seems as if the Patriots are having too many problems with injuries...which has led me to question the quality of their training staff, medical staff, and training regiments.




    Did BB tell you this on the bat phone?

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    Hey, it looks like Chandlers 1st season was as good as JPP's 1st season.....and his 3rd season for that matter.

     

     

     

     

     

    Defensive Stats   SEASON TEAM GP COMB TOTAL AST SACK FF FR YDS INT YDS AVG LNG TD PD STF STFYDS KB 2010 16 30 24 6 4.5 2 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 6 2 3 0 2011 16 86 65 21 16.5 2 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 7 8 15 1 2012 16 66 43 23 6.5 1 1 10 1 28 28 28 1 5 8 15 0 Career 48 182 132 50 27.5 5 3 0 1 28 28 28 1 18 18 33 1
     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    Weren't people thinking Jones was more of a "project" (using the term lightly here) when he was drafted? I'd give him another season or two, and then pass judgment.

     
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    Re: Projecting Chandler Jones

    In response to jri37's comment:

    In response to AyyyBoston's comment:

     

    Weren't people thinking Jones was more of a "project" (using the term lightly here) when he was drafted? I'd give him another season or two, and then pass judgment.

     



    I am not sure the Pat's can wait a couple of seasons. He needs to be an impact player next year. he needs to be a force in getting to the QB at a minimum.

     




    Sorry, I should have been more clear. I meant weren't people expecting him to peak in his 2nd or 3rd season? MY point is he did better than expected in his rookie year, and with another offseason to bulk up and get healthy, he should be better this year. 

     
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