Questioning Belichick's Moves

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In Mike Reiss's mailbag today, someone said Belichick has been dreadful at drafting and Reiss came back with a fair and reasonable response.  This was geared towards Belichick's poor drafting of DBs, which I agree with.

     

    "I think dreadful is too strong a word. Dreadful is trading up to the No. 5 spot in the 2009 first round to select quarterback Mark Sanchez (Jets). Dreadful is taking linebacker Rolando McClain eighth overall in 2010 (Raiders). Dreadful is taking offensive tackle Jason Smith No. 2 overall in 2009 (Rams). Dreadful is selecting linebacker Aaron Curry No. 4 overall in the 2009 draft (Seahawks). I could go on, but here's what I'd say about Belichick's draft record: He doesn't miss too often on the first-rounders that often make up the core of a team, but the second and third rounds have been trouble spots for him. I don't think that's dreadful. That probably puts him in the same category as most of his competitors, and then when considering what he's done with some later-round picks and undrafted players, he's still doing well."


    No GM hits on all their draft picks.  Hell, the 49ers had to trade their first round pick from last year to Kansas City because he contributed nothing as a wide receiver.  The Eagles just cut their first round pick from last year, Danny Watkins because they reached on a 28 year old guard who didn't start playing football until he was 22.  But man, does this forum produce a ton of complainers about Belichick's drafting acumen.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    If he's going to be "in the same category as most of his competitors" when it comes to the middle round picks, can people take a step away from the "greatest GM of all time" talk? 

    If he's average at it, I'm fine with that.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    A rather helpful perspective and, one would hope, without much of an agenda.  Thanks for posting the piece.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    are the late round draft choices and UDFA making the team BECAUSE the 2nd round draft choices are not panning out? Doesn't one lead to the other? I agree with Mike, BB is about middle of the pack, maybe slightly higher, but he had that 3 year slump that has been hurting

    I actually have a bigger issue with the free agent signings...

    It is hard to criticize, when we are not really sure what the team is looking for personel wise...I truly believe that Clay Mathews would be cut from this team because he cannot set the edge.

     

     
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  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to DoNotSleepOnThePats' comment:

    In Mike Reiss's mailbag today, someone said Belichick has been dreadful at drafting and Reiss came back with a fair and reasonable response.  This was geared towards Belichick's poor drafting of DBs, which I agree with.

     

    "I think dreadful is too strong a word. Dreadful is trading up to the No. 5 spot in the 2009 first round to select quarterback Mark Sanchez (Jets). Dreadful is taking linebacker Rolando McClain eighth overall in 2010 (Raiders). Dreadful is taking offensive tackle Jason Smith No. 2 overall in 2009 (Rams). Dreadful is selecting linebacker Aaron Curry No. 4 overall in the 2009 draft (Seahawks). I could go on, but here's what I'd say about Belichick's draft record: He doesn't miss too often on the first-rounders that often make up the core of a team, but the second and third rounds have been trouble spots for him. I don't think that's dreadful. That probably puts him in the same category as most of his competitors, and then when considering what he's done with some later-round picks and undrafted players, he's still doing well."


    No GM hits on all their draft picks.  Hell, the 49ers had to trade their first round pick from last year to Kansas City because he contributed nothing as a wide receiver.  The Eagles just cut their first round pick from last year, Danny Watkins because they reached on a 28 year old guard who didn't start playing football until he was 22.  But man, does this forum produce a ton of complainers about Belichick's drafting acumen.



         Sorry...no sale. Reiss is just trying to temper his criticisms. Sure, there are teams that have done worse...and it's reflected in their years of futility. But, BB's drafting recod since 2006 is terrible, no matter how you slice it.  Again, here's the list of BB draft busts, since 2006:

     

    1.) 2006: RB Laurence Maroney, the 21st overall pick in 2006, WR Chad Jackson, the 36th player selected overall, TE David Thomas, the 86th overall player taken, and TE Garrett Mills, the Pats' 106th overall pick;

    2.) 2007: FS Brandon Meriweather, the 24th overall pick; 

    3.) 2008: CB Terrence Wheatley, the 62nd overall pick, OLB Shawn Crable, the 78th overall pick, and QB Kevin O'Connell, the 94th overall selection in 2008;

    4.) 2009: SS Patrick Chung, the 34th overall player selected, DT Ron Brace, the 40th player selected, CB Darius Butler, the 41st overall selection, WR Brandon Tate, the 83rd overall selection, and LB Tyrone McKenzie, the 97th overall pick;

    5.) 2010: DE Jermaine Cunningham with their 53rd overall pick, WR Taylor Price, 90th overall pick;

    6.) 2011: CB Ras-I Dowling, 33rd overall;

    7.) 2012:  S Tavon Wilson, 48th overall, DE Jake Bequette, 90th overall;

    8.) 2013: It's very early, but does anybody from this draft class appear to be an impact player?

         So...since 2006, BB has had two (2) busts with #1 picks, in 2006 and 2007, busts with three super high second rounders in 2006, 2009 and 2011, along with five (5) other 2nd round misses - EIGHT (8) overall, and six (6) third round misses (not counting Mills, who was a high 4th round pick)....thats' 16 misses on picks in the first through third round in seven years. Horrible. Time to bring in a draft consultant for BB, and/or  completely revamp the scouting process, and methods of player selection.   

     

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to DontQuestionBB's comment:

    Poor draft choices and FA signings have been covered up with the best QB in history.  Without Brady, things in foxboro would have been very ugly.

     



         Amen, brother.

     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ghostofjri37. Show ghostofjri37's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to Not-A-Shot's comment:

    If he's going to be "in the same category as most of his competitors" when it comes to the middle round picks, can people take a step away from the "greatest GM of all time" talk? 

    If he's average at it, I'm fine with that.




    I don't think anyone here says he is the "greatest Gm of all time" err well maybe one person. I think a few of us think he is in the top group of GM's... just remember he might not be the best at drafting but he certainly isn't the worse. Being a GM consists of building a 53 man roster within the cap restrictions and trying to get the best 53 that fit your offensive and defensive philosophy not necessarily the best 53 players.

    IMO he is much better than "average" perhaps not the best but better than most.

     

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    Not A Shot, I think it's fair to say Belichick isn't the greatest GM of all time.  I think with the draft picks he's accumulated over the years through trades and what not, he's been able to take on more risks with his picks as opposed to other GMs.  Granted, it would be awesome if he nailed all those picks because that would have been a dearth of talent in terms of depth.  The 49ers had a ton of picks this past draft and took on guys like Marcus Lattimore, coming off a bad knee injury, but with tremendous upside and talent at running back.  Seemed like something BB would have done had he possessed more draft picks.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from stan17. Show stan17's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    It's laughable that people here question BB as a GM or coach. 

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    TexasPat, you basically cherry picked your draft picks to showcase the bad ones.  That's fine if you're just pointing out the picks that didn't pan out but you're ignoring the ones that did.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    So, you end up with morons like"Don'tQuestionBB" who is probably 20 years old and never left the suburbs before.

    Never sat on those bleachers at the old stadium, never saw a 2-14 team, doesn't know who Hart Lee Dykes or Eugene Chung are, etc, etc.



    He may, however, live in New England, which you haven't done in many years.

     

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to DoNotSleepOnThePats' comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    Not A Shot, I think it's fair to say Belichick isn't the greatest GM of all time.  I think with the draft picks he's accumulated over the years through trades and what not, he's been able to take on more risks with his picks as opposed to other GMs.  Granted, it would be awesome if he nailed all those picks because that would have been a dearth of talent in terms of depth.  The 49ers had a ton of picks this past draft and took on guys like Marcus Lattimore, coming off a bad knee injury, but with tremendous upside and talent at running back.  Seemed like something BB would have done had he possessed more draft picks.

     



    Who do you think is then?

     

    We've been to 5 SBs in 10 years!  Barring literally 2 plays, it's 5 rings vs 3.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    I think it's a combination of things but I don't point to draft pick busts being the reason this team lost 2 Super Bowls in the past 6 years.  Brady made some good plays and poor plays in both games.  I personally believe luck was on the Giants side the first go around especially with the helmet catch.  The o-line got manhandled by the Giants front four and Brady still connected with Moss for the go ahead TD with a little over two minutes left.  The poorly underthrown duck in Super Bowl XLVI to Gronk that was picked off by a linebacker who was substitute teaching just 3 months earlier was awful but we can't forget that earlier in that game, Brady set the record for most consecutive passes completed in a Super Bowl so it wasn't all his fault.  He made a bad play.  Wish the defense could have stopped Manningham from making that ridiculous catch but it happened.  They lost as a team in that game in a tough, close contest.

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    Russ V,

    why does it always revert back to Brady when someone calls bb mortal? 

    Cant you have one discussion on draft selections without bringing Brady into it?

    okay, so here is a question for the board and you Russ...how do you rate the performance of a GM objectively? You can't do so by merely looking at wins/losses as a coach, and in this case one of the best, has control on how the personnel get used, in game decisions and game strategy. 

    lets put this puppy to bed once and for all. name 3-5 criteria that a GM can be measured by that separate him from the coach? Anyone, buehler?

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves


    I think he is about where most of them are...they all know what a good player looks like, however none of them can predict injuries, heart, etc. I will say we supossedly had some sort of business model to measure or calculate just how much these guys love football (how much it means to them), but that is a crap shoot too.

    I think what has hurt Bill (and still does), is the never ending quest for value...getting the best of the deal instead of taking or paying the best player. I know you can't pay them all, but I've got a real problem with us walking into the season 14 million under the cap (this is now the third season in a row we didn't spend to the cap, with holes to be filled on the roster). That I got a problem with - Kraft said they would be spending to the cap this year, it never happened. The free agent signings this team has made over the last 3 seasons have been beyond poor - we literally are getting next to nothing from that section of team building...that's not good enough. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    Russ,

     

    I agree about Brady seeing ghosts.  As much as I hate that dirtball Ryan Clark on the Steelers, he said on ESPN earlier this offseason that Brady sees ghosts.  I've seen him flinch like crazy when there's no pressure.  The Jets playoff loss comes to mind when Rex Ryan deployed 6 defensive backs on several plays and Brady acted as if Pollard was bearing down.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    It is just a matter of opinion and not fact.

    You have a guy like TP who obviously has a very high threshold or set of expectations for any player to NOT be considered a bust. That is just his opinion and not a fact.

    Same for others on the ooposite side of the coin. No ones opinion is more valid than the next persons on the subject since the opinion only really matters to that person.

    I certainly have a vastly different opinion and reasons why I would disagree with TP but to each their own and his opinion makes sense to him and makes him happy.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    "He doesn't miss too often on the first-rounders that often make up the core of a team, but the second and third rounds have been trouble spots for him. I don't think that's dreadful. "

    I think it's a fair defense/argument by Reese. 

    Belichick in my view is a good to very good GM year by year, but his consistency elevates him even higher. 

    Given his success in the first round he should never trade out of that round however.

    I actually have more issues with Belichick's rigid negotiations on resigning and his apparent unwilligness to sign top free agents even when there is cap room. I think he's pretty solid in the draft and in terms of drafting late round and undrafted guys, he may be the best in the league and maybe all time. 

    Also, he knows when to let people go. He's only been wrong on letting people go only a couple of times, it's a pretty amazing track record. Adam Viniateri comes to mind but then again we never lost a Super Bowl because of Ghost instead of Adam. Even cutting his losses on his own mistakes, he's unsentimenal in the best say possible. 

    Where i get irritated is when he is elevated to a God or "best of all time." That's absolutely debatable at this time. Once you say someone is the best of all time you have almost always lost perspective in the NFL - with the possible exceptions of Jerry Rice, Lawrence Taylor, Jim Brown and maybe Joe Montana.

     

         
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Not-A-Shot. Show Not-A-Shot's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    You want them to spend right to the penny so you can sleep better at night knowing your Tommy is being supported as best as possible? lmao



    Yes.  Why not?

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

     

    Russ V,

    why does it always revert back to Brady when someone calls bb mortal? 

    Cant you have one discussion on draft selections without bringing Brady into it?

    okay, so here is a question for the board and you Russ...how do you rate the performance of a GM objectively? You can't do so by merely looking at wins/losses as a coach, and in this case one of the best, has control on how the personnel get used, in game decisions and game strategy. 

    lets put this puppy to bed once and for all. name 3-5 criteria that a GM can be measured by that separate him from the coach? Anyone, buehler?

     



    Because that is the root of WHY they do this every year. That's why. Can't you see that? What I laid out above is exactly what's happened.

     

    Brady could throw 4 INTs in the AFC Title game this year, with a direct B Line to a loss, and people would still try to pin BB's balls to the wall as GM for that stuff.

    As for your question, I gave you two examples above:

    1. UDFA development.

    2. Salary allocation.

    3. Not overpaying a player or players to hurt other parts of the roster.

    4. Draft picks themselves. Quality of your yields in conjunction with FA moves (or trades).

    5. KNowing the market and its shifts, which positions might spike or be reduced due to trends, etc. For example, BB just walked from Mesko. Why? Colquitt got 18 million over 5 years in KC back in March.

    All he'd be doing is renting Mesko for a year and maybe Allen, a two time Ray Guy winner is the best punting prospect they can see in the next 2-3 years at the NCAA level?

    That's the criteria I use and flat out, no one has captured the art better than BB. We win 12 games every year for these above reasons.



    Okay. But the criteria you gave below are again subjective unless you can put some tangibles to them. Udfa development? What does that mean? Udfa starting, contributing? Why should UDFAs be viewEd any differently in terms of contribution than 2nd round picks? logic would say that a GM  gets more of a bad grade for a 2nd round bust vs a contributing udfa? 

    Salary allocation? Do you mean by position or the spend to cap vs winning percentage? What does this mean?

    not overpaying? Is this by position as well? So not overpaying for position vs how that player,is ranked amongst his peers? 

    How do,you judge quality of yields in drafting? Is it by snaps played? Do you weight UDFAs differently than 2nd rounders? 

    The point,I am trying to make is that its very difficult to rank a GM and compare him amongst his peers,unless you have an objective system to do so that seperAtes performance from that of the coach. Until then, all this talk about bb being a good, bad,or average GM is just subjective. 

    In the case of the pats it's even more difficult because he is the GM and coach. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from Low-FB-IQ. Show Low-FB-IQ's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Russ V,

    why does it always revert back to Brady when someone calls bb mortal? 

    Cant you have one discussion on draft selections without bringing Brady into it?

    okay, so here is a question for the board and you Russ...how do you rate the performance of a GM objectively? You can't do so by merely looking at wins/losses as a coach, and in this case one of the best, has control on how the personnel get used, in game decisions and game strategy. 

    lets put this puppy to bed once and for all. name 3-5 criteria that a GM can be measured by that separate him from the coach? Anyone, buehler?



    For me it is simple.

    1) Is your team competitive year in and year out with a chance to enter the post season. Once in the post season anything can happen so it only matters if you have a chance to get in and compete.

    2) Can or does your roster routinely survive the attrition of injuries to support the #1 objective listed above.

    3) Do you provide your coach with the players he is looking for, that support his definitions of what he wants in a player for that players very clearly defined specific role.

    4) Can you do #3 while also maintaining a strick payscale structure so as not to create disgruntled and disrespected players and keep your team mostly out of roster/cap induced decisions.

    5) How many players that entered into the league through your organization are still active in the league (including PS's). Even if on another team now. That speaks to your overall evaluation of the total football player.

     

    If I really sat down and thought about it more I might have more or just expand on it but those were the 5 that came quickly to mind.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Cyberknot. Show Cyberknot's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves


     As fans we want EVERY pick to be great, every personnel move to be genius. Ain't gonna happen. Not for BB, not for anyone else.

     I don't think it's even fair to judge it that way. What has been the team's overall success? That is the measure of the GM, and the organization. Has the team consistantly competed for championships? Won their division? Who has been better?

     I won't deny that TB is a hugh part of it, but we were 11-5 in a season without him. With a QB that could not succeed elsewhere.

     I have been a Pats fan for 40 years, and it was never as much fun as it's been since Bill arrived, and isn't that what you watch for?

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to Low-FB-IQ's comment:


    For me it is simple.

     

    1) Is your team competitive year in and year out with a chance to enter the post season. Once in the post season anything can happen so it only matters if you have a chance to get in and compete.

    2) Can or does your roster routinely survive the attrition of injuries to support the #1 objective listed above.

    3) Do you provide your coach with the players he is looking for, that support his definitions of what he wants in a player for that players very clearly defined specific role.

    4) Can you do #3 while also maintaining a strick payscale structure so as not to create disgruntled and disrespected players and keep your team mostly out of roster/cap induced decisions.

    5) How many players that entered into the league through your organization are still active in the league (including PS's). Even if on another team now. That speaks to your overall evaluation of the total football player.

    If I really sat down and thought about it more I might have more or just expand on it but those were the 5 that came quickly to mind.

    [/QUOTE]

    This^^. 

    But you know the retort: "It's all Brady...." That he drafted and developed Brady gets dismissed by the handwringers, of course.

    It's always going to be the case that those folks will judge BB as GM based on his drafting and not on the overall composition of the roster, the W-L record, etc. That's just dumb luck, they say. That his coaching ability causes him to look passable as a GM.

    Personally, I couldn't care less about draft grades. I'd like the safety play to be better and for the pass rush to improve, but I don't care if they draft a guy or get him off the street or whatever. I rooted for Andre Carter and Mike Vrabel as much as for Vince Wilfork or Richard Seymour, as much for Randy Moss and Antowain Smith as for Deion Branch or Logan Mankins. 

    I truly don't understand the laser focus on the draft as the hallmark of a great GM. But, for many that's how it is. 

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    Reiss is right, BB is JAG as a drafter, and that's all most of those criticized for trashing him have been saying. The problem is that if you say he's average the homers then ask "why do you hate him?". LMAO

    Like I have been saying.... average drafter = mediocre team.

    Add Brady and a great HC = good team.

    I'm glad Reiss shares my view. It is an objective and pragmatic one.

     

     

    ____________________________________________________________

    When asked after the war why he had seized the machine gun and taken on an entire company of German infantry, Audie Murphy replied simply, "They were killing my friends."

    http://theconservativetreehouse.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/audie-murphy-2-1.jpg

     

     

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Questioning Belichick's Moves

    In response to Cyberknot's comment:

     

     I won't deny that TB is a hugh part of it, but we were 11-5 in a season without him. With a QB that could not succeed elsewhere.

     



    Again, joke schedule. Fish won the division after a 1-15 season, then went on to another losing season the year after that.

     
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