Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to dustcover's comment:
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    Looking at middle linebackers and what they contributed, don't overlook Sam Huff.  Just ask Jim Brown!

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    Sam Huff was not even in the top tier of MLB's of his own decade. He was a shadow compared to Butkus or Nitschke. Or even to the next tier of greats from back then like Lanier. Or slightly later with guys like Curtis or Bergy or Lambert. Saying Huff is like saying Santonio Holmes 40 years from now. He isnt even in the discussion now for his own years! Is he pretty good? Yes. SO what?

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to RockScully's comment:
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    In response to PatsLifer's comment:
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    In response to sporter81's comment:
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    i dont like to compare guys from the 60's to guys today. Butkis wouldnt even make an nfl roster if he was in his prime today. whats he run a 6 second 40? The Packers had a guard that was 178 pounds. People here don't like Ray Lewis and most think he killed someone but I think he may be the best to  every play MLB. I also am not convinced he killed anyone. OJ yes but Ray I'm not so sure of. I'll get slammed for this but its my honest opinion.

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    I don't think we can compare players of different eras to one another. Only to similar players in era, and based on the specifics of the day. I think Lewis was equally as feared and productive as Butkus. I can't think off another MLB I would want in their prime more than Lewis. He changes games and influences his team as much as any player in history . Yrs, there are different leadership styles, but there is no denying that his mental impact on his team is tangible when he is on the field 

    agree on Deion, white, reed and Woodson..all special players...there isn't anyone in my mind that has come close to LT. 

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    I agree. I think you break it down into early era (1920s-1950s), the forward passing 1960s-1980s, and then the cap era (1993-present).

    I think that's best way to break it down.  Prior to Sammy Baugh (a rarity for the era) and someone like Otto Graham in the 1950s, the passing element was not that common.

    It's also clearly much harder to play D today, which actually helps support Lewis as a an all time great, which as much as I hate to admit it, it's true.   He's better than Nitzschke, Butkus, Singletary, etc, you name it.

    It's still completely bizarre that people act like he didn't help kill/kill two people, though. I suppose if he goes into the HOF, OJ needs to start getting invites again.

     

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    Break it down yes but I dont think you lump the 50s in with earlier. GUys like Graham and Van Brocklin and Waterfield and Unitas (remember he QBd the COlts in the 58 championship game) and Title all were forces in the 50s. You might have to break it down a little further if not by decade or some such periods.

     

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    He possibly had one of the best DEFENSE attorneys ever.  Hahahaha!

     

    All kidding aside, he has been a beast, one of the best.  WHere he ranks stat wise he is probably up at the top area, but there have been defenders over the years that put the fear of god in players.... just look back at those old Steelers, Raiders guys.  They put just as much fear and caused just as much problems as Ray Lewis has.  It will be interesting how history ranks him.

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    maybe:

    1.  20s through the 40s

    2. 1950 through 1967 (NFL v AFL wars for players ends in 1965 and SB era begins following year... bringing the more open AFL offenses into mainstream within the next few years; GB dominated in 60s more than any one other teamn and their run ended in 1967)

    3. 1968 through 1979 (last 14 game season was 1977; Steelers dominated in 70s more than any one other team and their run ended in 1979)

    4. 1980 through 1995 (FA begins in its first form in 1989 or so and in a different form in about 1993; Cowboys dominated in early 1990s along with the Steve Young version of SF. Cowboys 3rd SB win after 1995 season... Salary cap first used in 1994 or so... FA becoming more significant in how teams built)

    5. 1996 through present.... along with the other changes there have been rule changes making the passing game EASIER for QBs and receivers. Stats become bloated. Comparisions harder. Skills somewhat different. Receivers dont have to be able to deal with as much physical play as in earlier eras.

     

    So perhaps this is one cut at a breakdown of eras across which it is hard to compare. And of course with the improvement of developing bodies from youth to adult, in nutrition, conditioning, medical improvements and of course PEDs it makes it even more difficult the further apart you get in eras.

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    No

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    I reject the notion that the old time players don't deserve to be ranked with the modern guys. Sure the game has changed. So has hockey, does that mean we can't rank Orr or Howe any more, or for that matter Gretzky? Ted Williams played against almost exclusively white players, never faced left handed relief specialists or set up guys throwing in the high 90s or split fingered fastballs. Does that mean he can't be ranked against modern players? Babe Ruth, DiMaggio, no good? Bill Russell, could he have made it in today's NBA, the game was way different then you know?

    If you want to get picky, LT was dominant in an era when 300 lb players were a rariity. Maybe he wouldn't have been so good now?  

    In my opinion, you compare everybody against the guys they played against in their era and base your rankings on how much better they were than their contemporaries, not how big they were or their 40 time. Anyway, that's my soap box.

    As for Lewis, great player, really great wehn he had Siragusa and Sam Adams keeping him clean so he could do his sideline to sideline thing. No way do I consider him the greatest defensive player ever, but he'd be a top 3 or 4 MLB, which is pretty darn good. I'd rate Butkus and Willie Lanier equal to or better, didn't see Nietzchke play. Personally, I don't think he's that far ahead of Urlacher or Zach Thomas or Lambert. I'm a Mike Curtis fan as well, but probably because I liked his style more than anything.

    TPat's list as good as any, I'd probably have Bob Lilly and Joe Greene somewhere in there and Ted Hendricks would get an honorable mention along with Darrell Green, Bruce Smith, Warren Sapp and Derrick Brooks. Ed Reed, Ronnie Lott and Alan Page too.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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    Good point. But what if Lewis played for a lousy team, with no Reed or Woodson or Siragusa or Ngata, Suggs, etc. Butkus stood out despite his crappy teammates, who knows what would have happened to Lewis?  

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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    Good point. But what if Lewis played for a lousy team, with no Reed or Woodson or Siragusa or Ngata, Suggs, etc. Butkus stood out despite his crappy teammates, who knows what would have happened to Lewis?  

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    I don't dispute Butkus is a hall of famer but to rate a player one of the 5 greatest defenders of all time he should play on good defenses repeatedly. He should make the playoffs at least once.  It's not like the Raven's Qb situation has been impressive during Lewis' time in Baltimore yet before this year they always had an above average defense, often a great defense.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great. Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness. Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly. What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever. There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great. His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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         Spare me! I've already chucked up lunch twice over the Ray Lewis love feast, now that the big slop has announced his retirement. This is, of course, a strategically planned motivational ploy by him, hoping to elevate himself and his dirty bird teammates to a SB. Hopefully, he and his Buzzards will be eliminated sooner than later, to spare us having to listen to endless hours of talking head discussions about how wonderful, lovable ol' Ray Ray is...and how he is the greatest defender and leader in NFL history: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/62536/ray-lewis-greatest-defensive-player-ever

         The above article by Jamison Hemsley shows that he knows as much about football as the late Sherman Hemsley, a/k/a George Jefferson. Really...Ray Lewis...the greatest defensive player ever? Let me set my own personal dislike aside for this overrated thug, who portrays himself as a cross between the Reverend Ike and Mike Singletary...and try to be objective. Here are my top 5 defenders:

    1.) OLB Lawrence Taylor: No one else is even close. You may hate what he's done off the field, but on the field, he was an absolute terror. Revolutionized the LB position...and has influenced defensive skemes, to this day. Everyone looks for "the next LT"...that fierce blind-side pass-rusher who could totally ruin any offensive attack. He was the real deal...the original "LT"...not that cry-baby RB, who finished his championship-less career with the Jests;

    2.) DE Reggie White: The "Minister of Defense". Unstoppable force as a DE.

    3.) MLB Dick Butkus: Not only is Ray Lewis not the greatest defender of all-time, but he wasn't even the greatest MLB of all-time. For those of you who never got to see him play, watch the two minute highlight film that the NFL has on him. You'll see all you need to know. Imagine a bigger, faster, full tilt/full time Tedy Bruschi...with a junk yard dog mean steak...and you have Butkus;

    4.) DE David "Deacon" Jones: Grossly underrated player. A bigger version of Dwight Freeney, with a mile wide mean streak. If sack stats were kept when The Deacon played, he might have the all-time sack record;

    5a.) DE Doug Atkins: Going back a few years...but this guy was both dominant, and feared. A menace, at 6'8", 275 lbs. Played most of his career with the Chicago Bears. Imagine J.J. Watt stringing together 10 straight seasons, like the one he's had this season. That describes Atkins' career: http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/bears-in-the-hall/doug-atkins.html

    5b.) CB Deion Sanders: Look up the definition of a shut-down CB, and you'll see Deion's photo. Teams simply could not, and would not, throw to his side of the field. Though his critics would say that he couldn't tackle...he could cover, like white on rice. Was also the greatest punt returner, and most dangerous man on an interception return that I've ever seen.           

        

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    he is a top 5 LB ever

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Bruce Smith, Reggie White, Deion Sanders, Ronnie Lott, Charles Haley, Ty Law, Willie McGinest... I don't go in for lists, they're the domain of list takers but I can reel off a list of defenders who were at least equal to or better than Ray Lewis.  Don't take anything away from him, he was probably the best open field tackler at LB of his generation, the closest thing to him now is Mayo.  I've always respected Lewis except when his entourage stabbed that guy and ran but that's Dade County for you...

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to 42AND46's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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         Spare me! I've already chucked up lunch twice over the Ray Lewis love feast, now that the big slop has announced his retirement. This is, of course, a strategically planned motivational ploy by him, hoping to elevate himself and his dirty bird teammates to a SB. Hopefully, he and his Buzzards will be eliminated sooner than later, to spare us having to listen to endless hours of talking head discussions about how wonderful, lovable ol' Ray Ray is...and how he is the greatest defender and leader in NFL history: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/62536/ray-lewis-greatest-defensive-player-ever

         The above article by Jamison Hemsley shows that he knows as much about football as the late Sherman Hemsley, a/k/a George Jefferson. Really...Ray Lewis...the greatest defensive player ever? Let me set my own personal dislike aside for this overrated thug, who portrays himself as a cross between the Reverend Ike and Mike Singletary...and try to be objective. Here are my top 5 defenders:

    1.) OLB Lawrence Taylor: No one else is even close. You may hate what he's done off the field, but on the field, he was an absolute terror. Revolutionized the LB position...and has influenced defensive skemes, to this day. Everyone looks for "the next LT"...that fierce blind-side pass-rusher who could totally ruin any offensive attack. He was the real deal...the original "LT"...not that cry-baby RB, who finished his championship-less career with the Jests;

    2.) DE Reggie White: The "Minister of Defense". Unstoppable force as a DE.

    3.) MLB Dick Butkus: Not only is Ray Lewis not the greatest defender of all-time, but he wasn't even the greatest MLB of all-time. For those of you who never got to see him play, watch the two minute highlight film that the NFL has on him. You'll see all you need to know. Imagine a bigger, faster, full tilt/full time Tedy Bruschi...with a junk yard dog mean steak...and you have Butkus;

    4.) DE David "Deacon" Jones: Grossly underrated player. A bigger version of Dwight Freeney, with a mile wide mean streak. If sack stats were kept when The Deacon played, he might have the all-time sack record;

    5a.) DE Doug Atkins: Going back a few years...but this guy was both dominant, and feared. A menace, at 6'8", 275 lbs. Played most of his career with the Chicago Bears. Imagine J.J. Watt stringing together 10 straight seasons, like the one he's had this season. That describes Atkins' career: http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/bears-in-the-hall/doug-atkins.html

    5b.) CB Deion Sanders: Look up the definition of a shut-down CB, and you'll see Deion's photo. Teams simply could not, and would not, throw to his side of the field. Though his critics would say that he couldn't tackle...he could cover, like white on rice. Was also the greatest punt returner, and most dangerous man on an interception return that I've ever seen.           

        

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    he is a top 5 LB ever

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         I'll agree that he's a top five MLB...but he's certainly not in the top five among the greatest defensive players of all-time. 

     

     

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Setting aside Lewis' off-field issues (if you can) the guy is/was an exceptional leader.  As far as where he ranks as a defender I agree that he is not top 5.  Dick Butkus and Ray Nitschke were both exceptional defenders and MLBs and I have to say if we do cross-compare from a generational standpoint I would have to rank each of them ahead of Lewis.

    My only disagreement with TPs top 5 is Deion Sanders.  He's a top 5 mouth and self-promoter and a HOF CB but he's not top 5 in my book.  Excellent cover corner who avoided tackling unless he absolutely had to.  That's not top 5 IMO.  Full disclosure:  I didn't like the guy as a player and I think he's a pathetic analyst.

    My 2 cents.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from GEAUX-TIGRES. Show GEAUX-TIGRES's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Of course he will. Seems the term 'innocent untile proven guilty' doesn't apply in this case. Would you say that the former Pat's team mate was exonerated on what should have been  vehicular homicide in Miami? Was that Stallworth (spelling)? What was his retribution? I believe he returned to play for the Pats. I guess you don't live in a glass house. My 2 sense.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    In response to TexasPat's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to GEAUX-TIGRES' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Of course he will. Seems the term 'innocent untile proven guilty' doesn't apply in this case. Would you say that the former Pat's team mate was exonerated on what should have been  vehicular homicide in Miami? Was that Stallworth (spelling)? What was his retribution? I believe he returned to play for the Pats. I guess you don't live in a glass house. My 2 sense.

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    Actually Stallworth pled guilty to a felony, DUI manslaughter and did jail time. He was also suspended for a year and lost his driver's license for life.

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break....

     

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    It's all opinion, nobody's right, nobody's wrong. I say Willie Lanier was as good as any of them, and Urlacher and Zach Thomas were just as good as Lewis at their peak. Most probably won't agree. Lewis had a longer run, so I give him the edge for that. He also played with some great players, Ed Reed is his equal, Ngata, Suggs and Woodson are/were great, but I don't downgrade him for that.  

    I say Darrell Green and Mike Haynes were as good as any other DBs that I've seen, but they don't get that type of recognition, whereas guys like Sanders and Lewis get too much credit, that's just the way it is. Haynes was the opposite of Sanders, quiet and avoided the limelight. Green, same way. 

    In my view Singletary is overrated, terrific player but not an all-time great. Not as good as Zach Thomas, but you may disagree. Neither one of us is right.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to Muzwell's comment:
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    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break....

     

    [/QUOTE]

    It's all opinion, nobody's right, nobody's wrong. I say Willie Lanier was as good as any of them, and Urlacher and Zach Thomas were just as good as Lewis at their peak. Most probably won't agree. Lewis had a longer run, so I give him the edge for that. He also played with some great players, Ed Reed is his equal, Ngata, Suggs and Woodson are/were great, but I don't downgrade him for that.  

    I say Darrell Green and Mike Haynes were as good as any other DBs that I've seen, but they don't get that type of recognition, whereas guys like Sanders and Lewis get too much credit, that's just the way it is. Haynes was the opposite of Sanders, quiet and avoided the limelight. Green, same way. 

    In my view Singletary is overrated, terrific player but not an all-time great. Not as good as Zach Thomas, but you may disagree. Neither one of us is right.

    [/QUOTE]


    I'm not arguing that Singletary is better than anyone. I'm only pointing out that Butkus can only be considered great because of his pro bowls and his postseasen all nfl teams. Other players who played the same position had more of each and won championships and played in more dificult eras. Saying Butkus is great because you saw him play as a kid and because of a highlight reel is weak. Butkus never went to the playoffs ever! I agree he is a hall of famer but he should never be ranked amongst the top 5 defenders of all, time. Maybe top 5 mlbs (maybe) but nowhere else. If he played for the Cardinals he would not have made the list but he played for a national team and he is a funny guy, therefore he gets overrated.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Always tough to compile the all time any list...Personally I've never been a fan of Lewis's. mostly due to the gangster stuff off the field when he was younger..That said, the guy does deserve to be in the conversation and is a lock for the HOF. hopefully his career ends in Foxboro in two weeks...

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from Beantowne. Show Beantowne's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Always tough to compile the all time any list...Personally I've never been a fan of Lewis's. mostly due to the gangster stuff off the field when he was younger..That said, the guy does deserve to be in the conversation and is a lock for the HOF. hopefully his career ends in Foxboro in two weeks...

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to ccnsd's comment:
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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    RESPONSE: Look at who wins in the NFL now. It's the teams with the top QBs. The same was also true when Butkus played. You had Bart Starr in Green Bay, Johnny Unitas in Baltimore, Joe Namath in NY, Don Meredith in Dallas, and Bob Griese in Miami. That's four Hall of Famers, and two other good QBs, who were pro-bowlers. Meanwhile, who ran the show for Butkus' team? Rudy Bukich...Jack Concannon? That's like putting Tom Brady up against a team  quarterbacked by John Beck. Quite the mis-match. But, according to you, that has no bearing on how well the Bears' performed, right? LOL!!!     

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

    RESPONSE: See above! Maybe that will help you "understand better". Look what happened with Wes Welker, after he joined the Patriots. He's set all kinds of records, playing with Tom Brady, and coached by BB. What kind of a career might he have had, had Miami decided to keep him...and he got to play with John Beck, Chad Pennington, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore...and was coached by Cam "Mr. Fail Fast First" Cameron, and Tony Sporano?

        Green Bay was coached by Vince Lombardi, Baltimore and Miami had Don Shula, Dallas had Tom Landry, and the Jets had Weeb Ewbank. Butkus and his Bears were coached by 70-73 year old George Halas, who was winding down his career. Thereafter, Butkus played for such "greats" as Jim Dooley, and Abe Gibron.

         Maybe this will help you understand better. DE Jason Taylor had a great career in Miami, yet won nothing. Still, he is potentially a Hall of Famer. How much better would Taylor's stats and credentials have been if he had played his entire career with the Pats, and for BB?             

    [/QUOTE]


     
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