Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Jack Lambert

    Dont Mess With Jack Splat...........

     

     

     

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    Jack Lambert

    Dont Mess With Jack Splat...........

     [/QUOTE]

         Lambert was a great MLB. Yet, look at who he played with on defense. He was well protected by the Steel Curtain front 4, that kept OGs off of him...allowing him to roam, seek, and destroy, unabated. Butkus never was in that situation. I shutter to think how effective he would have been, had he been surrounded with that type of talent. 

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    RESPONSE: Look at who wins in the NFL now. It's the teams with the top QBs. The same was also true when Butkus played. You had Bart Starr in Green Bay, Johnny Unitas in Baltimore, Joe Namath in NY, Don Meredith in Dallas, and Bob Griese in Miami. That's four Hall of Famers, and two other good QBs, who were pro-bowlers. Meanwhile, who ran the show for Butkus' team? Rudy Bukich...Jack Concannon? That's like putting Tom Brady up against a team  quarterbacked by John Beck. Quite the mis-match. But, according to you, that has no bearing on how well the Bears' performed, right? LOL!!!     

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

    RESPONSE: See above! Maybe that will help you "understand better". Look what happened with Wes Welker, after he joined the Patriots. He's set all kinds of records, playing with Tom Brady, and coached by BB. What kind of a career might he have had, had Miami decided to keep him...and he got to play with John Beck, Chad Pennington, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore...and was coached by Cam "Mr. Fail Fast First" Cameron, and Tony Sporano?

        Green Bay was coached by Vince Lombardi, Baltimore and Miami had Don Shula, Dallas had Tom Landry, and the Jets had Weeb Ewbank. Butkus and his Bears were coached by 70-73 year old George Halas, who was winding down his career. Thereafter, Butkus played for such "greats" as Jim Dooley, and Abe Gibron.

         Maybe this will help you understand better. DE Jason Taylor had a great career in Miami, yet won nothing. Still, he is potentially a Hall of Famer. How much better would Taylor's stats and credentials have been if he had played his entire career with the Pats, and for BB?             

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    Even Jason Taylor played on winning teams and went to the playoffs. I'm agreeing Butkus is a hall of famer but there is nothing in his record that puts him top 5 of all time. Be rational on this. I agree QB's are the most important players in the nfl but other great LBs like Lewis and Singletary played with crappy ones too but went to the playoffs. You can have a bad QB and still be a top 5 defense. The Ravens have been doing it for years. It's like arguing Brady is better then Manning simply because you are a Pats fan and you have seen him play a lot. That won't cut it. Brady is better because of the stats, not despite them. No rational person could argue player B is better than player A in my example above. No one except for a Bears fan.

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    RESPONSE: Look at who wins in the NFL now. It's the teams with the top QBs. The same was also true when Butkus played. You had Bart Starr in Green Bay, Johnny Unitas in Baltimore, Joe Namath in NY, Don Meredith in Dallas, and Bob Griese in Miami. That's four Hall of Famers, and two other good QBs, who were pro-bowlers. Meanwhile, who ran the show for Butkus' team? Rudy Bukich...Jack Concannon? That's like putting Tom Brady up against a team  quarterbacked by John Beck. Quite the mis-match. But, according to you, that has no bearing on how well the Bears' performed, right? LOL!!!     

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

    RESPONSE: See above! Maybe that will help you "understand better". Look what happened with Wes Welker, after he joined the Patriots. He's set all kinds of records, playing with Tom Brady, and coached by BB. What kind of a career might he have had, had Miami decided to keep him...and he got to play with John Beck, Chad Pennington, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore...and was coached by Cam "Mr. Fail Fast First" Cameron, and Tony Sporano?

        Green Bay was coached by Vince Lombardi, Baltimore and Miami had Don Shula, Dallas had Tom Landry, and the Jets had Weeb Ewbank. Butkus and his Bears were coached by 70-73 year old George Halas, who was winding down his career. Thereafter, Butkus played for such "greats" as Jim Dooley, and Abe Gibron.

         Maybe this will help you understand better. DE Jason Taylor had a great career in Miami, yet won nothing. Still, he is potentially a Hall of Famer. How much better would Taylor's stats and credentials have been if he had played his entire career with the Pats, and for BB?             

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    Even Jason Taylor played on winning teams and went to the playoffs. I'm agreeing Butkus is a hall of famer but there is nothing in his record that puts him top 5 of all time. Be rational on this.

    RESPONSE: I have...did you ignore my previous post? Big deal...Taylpor went to the play-offs for a couple of seasons. What did he win? There were no expanded play-offs or wild-card teams allowed, when Butkus played.

     I agree QB's are the most important players in the nfl but other great LBs like Lewis and Singletary played with crappy ones too but went to the playoffs.

    RESPONSE: Time for you to be rational. That defense he played on in 2000 is in the running, along with the "85 Bears, as the greatest defensive team of all-time. There were no expanded play-offs when Butkus played. Joe Flacco is a pretty good QB. Again, even though you continue to fail to consider it...Lewis played with much better personnel, in a better run organization, led by one of the best GMs in the game, in Ozzie Newsome...and played for better coaches. Finally, the medical advances allowed Lewis to play, and or recover fully and quickly from injuries...whereby sports medicine was still in the Stone Age when Butkus played.  

    You can have a bad QB and still be a top 5 defense. The Ravens have been doing it for years.

    RESPONSE: Yes...if you have great playerS on the defensive unit. But, when you have merely a great player, it can't be done!

    It's like arguing Brady is better then Manning simply because you are a Pats fan and you have seen him play a lot. That won't cut it. Brady is better because of the stats, not despite them. No rational person could argue player B is better than player A in my example above. No one except for a Bears fan.

    RESPONSE: I assure that I'm quite rational, and I'm not a Bears' fan...LOL!! The  Brady/Manning comparison has nothing to do with Butkus/Lewis. Brady is the better player because he accomplished more with less. With the exception of 2007, 2011 and 2012, Tom has never had the weapons surrounding him that Manning has had. Lewis has always been surrounded by top defensive talent...such as perrenial pro-bowlers Ed Reed, Haloti Nagata, and Terrell Suggs...while Butkus had bupkis.     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

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    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    RESPONSE: Look at who wins in the NFL now. It's the teams with the top QBs. The same was also true when Butkus played. You had Bart Starr in Green Bay, Johnny Unitas in Baltimore, Joe Namath in NY, Don Meredith in Dallas, and Bob Griese in Miami. That's four Hall of Famers, and two other good QBs, who were pro-bowlers. Meanwhile, who ran the show for Butkus' team? Rudy Bukich...Jack Concannon? That's like putting Tom Brady up against a team  quarterbacked by John Beck. Quite the mis-match. But, according to you, that has no bearing on how well the Bears' performed, right? LOL!!!     

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

    RESPONSE: See above! Maybe that will help you "understand better". Look what happened with Wes Welker, after he joined the Patriots. He's set all kinds of records, playing with Tom Brady, and coached by BB. What kind of a career might he have had, had Miami decided to keep him...and he got to play with John Beck, Chad Pennington, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore...and was coached by Cam "Mr. Fail Fast First" Cameron, and Tony Sporano?

        Green Bay was coached by Vince Lombardi, Baltimore and Miami had Don Shula, Dallas had Tom Landry, and the Jets had Weeb Ewbank. Butkus and his Bears were coached by 70-73 year old George Halas, who was winding down his career. Thereafter, Butkus played for such "greats" as Jim Dooley, and Abe Gibron.

         Maybe this will help you understand better. DE Jason Taylor had a great career in Miami, yet won nothing. Still, he is potentially a Hall of Famer. How much better would Taylor's stats and credentials have been if he had played his entire career with the Pats, and for BB?             

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    Even Jason Taylor played on winning teams and went to the playoffs. I'm agreeing Butkus is a hall of famer but there is nothing in his record that puts him top 5 of all time. Be rational on this.

    RESPONSE: I have...did you ignore my previous post? Big deal...Taylpor went to the play-offs for a couple of seasons. What did he win? There were no expanded play-offs or wild-card teams allowed, when Butkus played.

     I agree QB's are the most important players in the nfl but other great LBs like Lewis and Singletary played with crappy ones too but went to the playoffs.

    RESPONSE: Time for you to be rational. That defense he played on in 2000 is in the running, along with the "85 Bears, as the greatest defensive team of all-time. There were no expanded play-offs when Butkus played. Joe Flacco is a pretty good QB. Again, even though you continue to fail to consider it...Lewis played with much better personnel, in a better run organization, led by one of the best GMs in the game, in Ozzie Newsome...and played for better coaches. Finally, the medical advances allowed Lewis to play, and or recover fully and quickly from injuries...whereby sports medicine was still in the Stone Age when Butkus played.  

    You can have a bad QB and still be a top 5 defense. The Ravens have been doing it for years.

    RESPONSE: Yes...if you have great playerS on the defensive unit. But, when you have merely a great player, it can't be done!

    It's like arguing Brady is better then Manning simply because you are a Pats fan and you have seen him play a lot. That won't cut it. Brady is better because of the stats, not despite them. No rational person could argue player B is better than player A in my example above. No one except for a Bears fan.

    RESPONSE: I assure that I'm quite rational, and I'm not a Bears' fan...LOL!! The  Brady/Manning comparison has nothing to do with Butkus/Lewis. Brady is the better player because he accomplished more with less. With the exception of 2007, 2011 and 2012, Tom has never had the weapons surrounding him that Manning has had. Lewis has always been surrounded by top defensive talent...such as perrenial pro-bowlers Ed Reed, Haloti Nagata, and Terrell Suggs...while Butkus had bupkis.     
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     The playoffs were expanded for most of Butkus's career. In Buttkus's 3rd season the playoffs in the NFL went from 2 to 4 teams (25% of the league). Who cares about playoffs anyways, he only played for 2 winning teams period. He probably played with more hall of famers than john Hannah did by the way. Butkus is a legitimate Hall of Famer, but thats it. There is nothing you can say that shows any more than that. Maybe he looks better than he is because his teammates were so bad (according to you). I do not judge Butkus negatively for not winning defensive player of the year ever since the award did not start until 1971, but Mike Singletary did win the award twice. 

     
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    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

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    I believe Butkus is overrated quite frankly. He is a worthy hall of famer but how can he be the greatest when he played for only two winning teams and he never played in the playoffs. The Bears defense was mostly average when he played. Other than his first couple of seasons the Bears defense was not that good. He is not as good as Singletary in my opinion or anywhere near Ray Lewis in my opinion.

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         Butkus never was surrounded by the caliber of players that Singletary was. If anyone was overrated, it was Singletary. Ditto the case with Ray Lewis. Butkus was the Bears' defense in those years. They had little else.

     

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    Does not matter that his teammates were not all great.

    RESPONSE: Not all great? They were terrible! What do you mean, that doesn't matter? Every opponent he faced keyed on him.

     Other than his funny beer commercials and his wit there is nothing that makes him the greatest MLB ever. His bears defenses were generally average and the teams usually lost. There is nothing to quantify his greatness.

    RESPONSE: Obviously, you've never seen him play...or heard what his contemporaries had to say about him. Yes, the Bears' defenses with him were "average"...but were that good because of him. In addition, his defense was constantly on the field, because the Bears' offense during that time was offensive. The primary reason that they had nothing at QB. The starting QBs for the Bears during his career, from '65-73, were the "great" Rudy Bukich ('65 & '66), Boston College's favorite son Jack Concannon ('67, '69, & '70), Virgil Carter in '68, and Bobby Douglas ('71-'73).  

    Singletary and Lewis played on historically great defenses with bad QB play yet were in the playoffs constantly.

    RESPONSE: Yes!! They were both surrounded with talented players. The '85 Bears were the greatest defensive team of all-time...and the 2000 Ravens were close to it. Opposing offenses could not key on Singletary and Lewis, because of the talent surrounding them.  As for bad QB play...Jim McMahon was not a bad QB. Both the Ravens and Singletary's Bears were also under better management at the time they played, which translated into greater team success. When Butkus played, an aging George Halas was winding it down. 

    What makes Butkus so great? All pro teams, fine, I agree he is a hall of famer but without the media love he would never be considered one of the greatest ever.

    RESPONSE: LOL!! As I said above, you've obviously never saw him play. He was the most feared defensive player in the game, during his era. 

    There is nothing else you can point at that shows he is better, nothing. Under the logic of bad team mates you could argue almost any mediocre player is secretly great.

    RESPONSE: How is that logical?? LOL!!  

     His teammates could not have been that bad, they were NFL Champions just two years before his rookie season which by the way was the best defense he ever played on.

    RESPONSE: The "63 were a veteran team, that went downhill fast with age. George Halas believed in playing veterans, kind of like George Allen, but not as extreme. Are you trying to argue that the team got worse because they added Butkus? LOL!!!   

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    My point continues which you are still unable to disprove. I never saw  Mickey Mantle play but I can quantify his greatness. i only saw Willie Mays play with the Mets but i can quantify his greatness. With Lewis, Singletary, Lambert and Nitschke there are mote then pro bowls and all nfl honors. There are high defensive rankings and wins. There is nothing about Butkus but pro bowls and all pro teams that show how good he was and many MLB's had more of both. He was a great player on mostly bad teams and average defenses. He belongs in the hall of fame but the purpose of the NFL is to win, not to accumulate dirty hits and funny beer commercials. You can't base rankings on what you saw as a kid. i thought joe Namath was the best when i was a kid, I as a rational adult know that he wasn't. The NFL was mostly blacked out when Butkus played so you could not have seen Butkus play that much. You watch a 2 minute highlight reel and thats what proves it. Give me a break.

    RESPONSE: Look at who wins in the NFL now. It's the teams with the top QBs. The same was also true when Butkus played. You had Bart Starr in Green Bay, Johnny Unitas in Baltimore, Joe Namath in NY, Don Meredith in Dallas, and Bob Griese in Miami. That's four Hall of Famers, and two other good QBs, who were pro-bowlers. Meanwhile, who ran the show for Butkus' team? Rudy Bukich...Jack Concannon? That's like putting Tom Brady up against a team  quarterbacked by John Beck. Quite the mis-match. But, according to you, that has no bearing on how well the Bears' performed, right? LOL!!!     

    This may help you understand better. Player A goes to 9 pro bowls and is on 6 All NFL teams and wins 4 super bowls and is defensive player of the year once. His team wins 4 championships and he is on one of the top 5 ranked scoring defenses 5 times. Player B has 8 pro bowls  and 5 all nfl teams and never wins defensive player of the year. Never wins a chmpionship and only plays on 2 winning teams. His defenses are top five only twice. Both players are in the hall of fame of course. Both players played before sacks were counted but player A has 28 interceptions compared to player B's 22.  Yet you rate player B one of the 5 greatest of all time but not player A, why?

    RESPONSE: See above! Maybe that will help you "understand better". Look what happened with Wes Welker, after he joined the Patriots. He's set all kinds of records, playing with Tom Brady, and coached by BB. What kind of a career might he have had, had Miami decided to keep him...and he got to play with John Beck, Chad Pennington, Chad Henne, and Matt Moore...and was coached by Cam "Mr. Fail Fast First" Cameron, and Tony Sporano?

        Green Bay was coached by Vince Lombardi, Baltimore and Miami had Don Shula, Dallas had Tom Landry, and the Jets had Weeb Ewbank. Butkus and his Bears were coached by 70-73 year old George Halas, who was winding down his career. Thereafter, Butkus played for such "greats" as Jim Dooley, and Abe Gibron.

         Maybe this will help you understand better. DE Jason Taylor had a great career in Miami, yet won nothing. Still, he is potentially a Hall of Famer. How much better would Taylor's stats and credentials have been if he had played his entire career with the Pats, and for BB?             

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Even Jason Taylor played on winning teams and went to the playoffs. I'm agreeing Butkus is a hall of famer but there is nothing in his record that puts him top 5 of all time. Be rational on this.

    RESPONSE: I have...did you ignore my previous post? Big deal...Taylpor went to the play-offs for a couple of seasons. What did he win? There were no expanded play-offs or wild-card teams allowed, when Butkus played.

     I agree QB's are the most important players in the nfl but other great LBs like Lewis and Singletary played with crappy ones too but went to the playoffs.

    RESPONSE: Time for you to be rational. That defense he played on in 2000 is in the running, along with the "85 Bears, as the greatest defensive team of all-time. There were no expanded play-offs when Butkus played. Joe Flacco is a pretty good QB. Again, even though you continue to fail to consider it...Lewis played with much better personnel, in a better run organization, led by one of the best GMs in the game, in Ozzie Newsome...and played for better coaches. Finally, the medical advances allowed Lewis to play, and or recover fully and quickly from injuries...whereby sports medicine was still in the Stone Age when Butkus played.  

    You can have a bad QB and still be a top 5 defense. The Ravens have been doing it for years.

    RESPONSE: Yes...if you have great playerS on the defensive unit. But, when you have merely a great player, it can't be done!

    It's like arguing Brady is better then Manning simply because you are a Pats fan and you have seen him play a lot. That won't cut it. Brady is better because of the stats, not despite them. No rational person could argue player B is better than player A in my example above. No one except for a Bears fan.

    RESPONSE: I assure that I'm quite rational, and I'm not a Bears' fan...LOL!! The  Brady/Manning comparison has nothing to do with Butkus/Lewis. Brady is the better player because he accomplished more with less. With the exception of 2007, 2011 and 2012, Tom has never had the weapons surrounding him that Manning has had. Lewis has always been surrounded by top defensive talent...such as perrenial pro-bowlers Ed Reed, Haloti Nagata, and Terrell Suggs...while Butkus had bupkis.     
    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

     The playoffs were expanded for most of Butkus's career. In Buttkus's 3rd season the playoffs in the NFL went from 2 to 4 teams (25% of the league). Who cares about playoffs anyways, he only played for 2 winning teams period. He probably played with more hall of famers than john Hannah did by the way.

    RESPONSE: Interesting that you mentioned Hanna. He is considered by many as being the greatest offensive lineman of all-time...even though he played primarily on putrid Patriots' teams.

    Butkus is a legitimate Hall of Famer, but thats it. There is nothing you can say that shows any more than that. Maybe he looks better than he is because his teammates were so bad (according to you). I do not judge Butkus negatively for not winning defensive player of the year ever since the award did not start until 1971, but Mike Singletary did win the award twice.

    RESPONSE: You're never going to convince me that Ray Lewis was better than Dick Butkus. To me, it borders on blastpheme...LOL!!! We're just going to have to agree to disagree, and move on.  

    [/QUOTE]


     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??




     

    [/QUOTE]

     The playoffs were expanded for most of Butkus's career. In Buttkus's 3rd season the playoffs in the NFL went from 2 to 4 teams (25% of the league). Who cares about playoffs anyways, he only played for 2 winning teams period. He probably played with more hall of famers than john Hannah did by the way.

    RESPONSE: Interesting that you mentioned Hanna. He is considered by many as being the greatest offensive lineman of all-time...even though he played primarily on putrid Patriots' teams.

    Butkus is a legitimate Hall of Famer, but thats it. There is nothing you can say that shows any more than that. Maybe he looks better than he is because his teammates were so bad (according to you). I do not judge Butkus negatively for not winning defensive player of the year ever since the award did not start until 1971, but Mike Singletary did win the award twice.

    RESPONSE: You're never going to convince me that Ray Lewis was better than Dick Butkus. To me, it borders on blastpheme...LOL!!! We're just going to have to agree to disagree, and move on.  

    [/QUOTE]


    [/QUOTE]

    Fair enough. We will call it a draw and agree to disagree. About Hannah though. The Fairbanks Patriots were similar to the Norv Turner  Chargers though. They were constantly being called one of the most talented teams in the NFL but they could never put it together when it mattered. Fairbanks was a much better coach than Turner is but neither team ever reached their potentiel. The final proof of Hannah's greatness came in 1986 after he retired when the Pats went from rushing for 2331 yards at a 4.1 clip in 1985 to rushing for 1373 yards at a 2.9 clip in 1986. Craig James would never have gotten his 1000 yard season if Hannah had retired one year earlier.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from susan250. Show susan250's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to sporter81's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    i dont like to compare guys from the 60's to guys today. Butkis wouldnt even make an nfl roster if he was in his prime today. whats he run a 6 second 40? The Packers had a guard that was 178 pounds. People here don't like Ray Lewis and most think he killed someone but I think he may be the best to  every play MLB. I also am not convinced he killed anyone. OJ yes but Ray I'm not so sure of. I'll get slammed for this but its my honest opinion.

    [/QUOTE]
    Definitely agree with you about Ray Lewis.  I don't believe that he was guilty of killing anyone.  I always  liked him and enjoyed the story on the NFL station about him, a football life, which I watched sometime this year.   Many Patriots fans don't like successful players on other teams and they have a right to their opinion. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to susan250's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to sporter81's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    i dont like to compare guys from the 60's to guys today. Butkis wouldnt even make an nfl roster if he was in his prime today. whats he run a 6 second 40? The Packers had a guard that was 178 pounds. People here don't like Ray Lewis and most think he killed someone but I think he may be the best to  every play MLB. I also am not convinced he killed anyone. OJ yes but Ray I'm not so sure of. I'll get slammed for this but its my honest opinion.

    [/QUOTE]
    Definitely agree with you about Ray Lewis.  I don't believe that he was guilty of killing anyone.  I always  liked him and enjoyed the story on the NFL station about him, a football life, which I watched sometime this year.   Many Patriots fans don't like successful players on other teams and they have a right to their opinion. 

    [/QUOTE]

         No...I don't think that Patriot's fans "don't like successful players on other teams". What they don't like are cry-babys, like LaDainian Tomlinson, and the Ravens' team, including their leader, Lewis. Every time the Patriots beat the Ravens, the Raven players always whine, and make excuses. It's never that the Patriots are the better team...even though the Pats have owned the Buzzards over the past decade. Plus...the Ravens hold the well deserved reputation for being the dirtiest team in the NFL. 

     

     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from IrishMob7. Show IrishMob7's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to Jets' comment:
    [QUOTE]

    STOP REPOSTING TO REPLY TO A THREAD!IT IS NOT REQUIRED!

    Ray Lewis is NOT the best defender ever. He's the best whitewasher in the League. he got away with murder and now he's trying to act like a Saint. F Ray lewis!

    Remember there is no reason to repost my original post when responsding. Thanks from everybody!

    [/QUOTE]

    Whoops.  Sorry Leon!!  Don't have a conniption!

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

     

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Spare me! I've already chucked up lunch twice over the Ray Lewis love feast, now that the big slop has announced his retirement. This is, of course, a strategically planned motivational ploy by him, hoping to elevate himself and his dirty bird teammates to a SB. Hopefully, he and his Buzzards will be eliminated sooner than later, to spare us having to listen to endless hours of talking head discussions about how wonderful, lovable ol' Ray Ray is...and how he is the greatest defender and leader in NFL history: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/62536/ray-lewis-greatest-defensive-player-ever

         The above article by Jamison Hemsley shows that he knows as much about football as the late Sherman Hemsley, a/k/a George Jefferson. Really...Ray Lewis...the greatest defensive player ever? Let me set my own personal dislike aside for this overrated thug, who portrays himself as a cross between the Reverend Ike and Mike Singletary...and try to be objective. Here are my top 5 defenders:

    1.) OLB Lawrence Taylor: No one else is even close. You may hate what he's done off the field, but on the field, he was an absolute terror. Revolutionized the LB position...and has influenced defensive skemes, to this day. Everyone looks for "the next LT"...that fierce blind-side pass-rusher who could totally ruin any offensive attack. He was the real deal...the original "LT"...not that cry-baby RB, who finished his championship-less career with the Jests;

    2.) DE Reggie White: The "Minister of Defense". Unstoppable force as a DE.

    3.) MLB Dick Butkus: Not only is Ray Lewis not the greatest defender of all-time, but he wasn't even the greatest MLB of all-time. For those of you who never got to see him play, watch the two minute highlight film that the NFL has on him. You'll see all you need to know. Imagine a bigger, faster, full tilt/full time Tedy Bruschi...with a junk yard dog mean steak...and you have Butkus;

    4.) DE David "Deacon" Jones: Grossly underrated player. A bigger version of Dwight Freeney, with a mile wide mean streak. If sack stats were kept when The Deacon played, he might have the all-time sack record;

    5a.) DE Doug Atkins: Going back a few years...but this guy was both dominant, and feared. A menace, at 6'8", 275 lbs. Played most of his career with the Chicago Bears. Imagine J.J. Watt stringing together 10 straight seasons, like the one he's had this season. That describes Atkins' career: http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/bears-in-the-hall/doug-atkins.html

    5b.) CB Deion Sanders: Look up the definition of a shut-down CB, and you'll see Deion's photo. Teams simply could not, and would not, throw to his side of the field. Though his critics would say that he couldn't tackle...he could cover, like white on rice. Was also the greatest punt returner, and most dangerous man on an interception return that I've ever seen.           

        

    [/QUOTE]


     

    2 things i will add to this.

     

    1.) Better to be like me and just watch the game and be entertained. if you dug up the personal lives of every football player you would find lots of disturbing things and obviously when players get caught we will single them out and thats not fair. There are many different kinds of players in this league but none of them are perfect and I watch them play sports, Its not my job to judge them outside of football nor yours.

     

    2.) The fact that you can judge Ray Lewis and then put L.T. as your top defender with out disclaimer and is laughable and kind of makes your original point mute.

     

    Lets just stick to football. In my era, there was noone better. I caught the tail end of L.T's career and its hard to gauge him against anyone else when that defense was stacked with all pro linebackers.

     
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  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from JBonesky. Show JBonesky's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Surely the best defendant.

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to Quagmire3's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    The only thing Ray 'the murderer" Lewis is #1 in is trying to hog the spotlight with his dang dirty bird dance before any big game. He is a selfish, murdering individualist and not a team player.

    [/QUOTE]

    are u serious!?  selfish and not a team player??

     

    This is why this board is a joke! We praise thuggish players when they come here and chastise the ones that dont. First of all he was not convicted of murder and in this country thats kind of important. Secondly, most of you hypocrites probably voted for one politician or president at one time and they are all murderers. Only diff. is there is proof(maybe not in plain sight) of theirs and none for Lewis. I dont get involved in players off field issues because its dumb but like I said, dont act like you dont watch, get entertained, be subserviant to many murderers and once again football players are FAR from Thugs or Gangbangers. You would be happy to run into Ray lewis in an alley as opposed to  a blood or crip....lol   Phony Fake Ucks in this forum I tell ya and Quag dont get me started with the military and why they are killing themselves more than the enemy...  I wonder why

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Not going to bother reading the thread. I'll just say that if you're out sailing and you run into a dead calm, you'd be lucky to have Lewis along.

    Beyond his value as a windbag, I have no use for this guy.

     

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat. Show TexasPat's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    In response to TripleOG's comment:
    [QUOTE]

     

    In response to TexasPat's comment:
    [QUOTE]

         Spare me! I've already chucked up lunch twice over the Ray Lewis love feast, now that the big slop has announced his retirement. This is, of course, a strategically planned motivational ploy by him, hoping to elevate himself and his dirty bird teammates to a SB. Hopefully, he and his Buzzards will be eliminated sooner than later, to spare us having to listen to endless hours of talking head discussions about how wonderful, lovable ol' Ray Ray is...and how he is the greatest defender and leader in NFL history: http://espn.go.com/blog/afcnorth/post/_/id/62536/ray-lewis-greatest-defensive-player-ever

         The above article by Jamison Hemsley shows that he knows as much about football as the late Sherman Hemsley, a/k/a George Jefferson. Really...Ray Lewis...the greatest defensive player ever? Let me set my own personal dislike aside for this overrated thug, who portrays himself as a cross between the Reverend Ike and Mike Singletary...and try to be objective. Here are my top 5 defenders:

    1.) OLB Lawrence Taylor: No one else is even close. You may hate what he's done off the field, but on the field, he was an absolute terror. Revolutionized the LB position...and has influenced defensive skemes, to this day. Everyone looks for "the next LT"...that fierce blind-side pass-rusher who could totally ruin any offensive attack. He was the real deal...the original "LT"...not that cry-baby RB, who finished his championship-less career with the Jests;

    2.) DE Reggie White: The "Minister of Defense". Unstoppable force as a DE.

    3.) MLB Dick Butkus: Not only is Ray Lewis not the greatest defender of all-time, but he wasn't even the greatest MLB of all-time. For those of you who never got to see him play, watch the two minute highlight film that the NFL has on him. You'll see all you need to know. Imagine a bigger, faster, full tilt/full time Tedy Bruschi...with a junk yard dog mean steak...and you have Butkus;

    4.) DE David "Deacon" Jones: Grossly underrated player. A bigger version of Dwight Freeney, with a mile wide mean streak. If sack stats were kept when The Deacon played, he might have the all-time sack record;

    5a.) DE Doug Atkins: Going back a few years...but this guy was both dominant, and feared. A menace, at 6'8", 275 lbs. Played most of his career with the Chicago Bears. Imagine J.J. Watt stringing together 10 straight seasons, like the one he's had this season. That describes Atkins' career: http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/bears-in-the-hall/doug-atkins.html

    5b.) CB Deion Sanders: Look up the definition of a shut-down CB, and you'll see Deion's photo. Teams simply could not, and would not, throw to his side of the field. Though his critics would say that he couldn't tackle...he could cover, like white on rice. Was also the greatest punt returner, and most dangerous man on an interception return that I've ever seen.           

        

    [/QUOTE]


     

    2 things i will add to this.

     

    1.) Better to be like me and just watch the game and be entertained. if you dug up the personal lives of every football player you would find lots of disturbing things and obviously when players get caught we will single them out and thats not fair. There are many different kinds of players in this league but none of them are perfect and I watch them play sports, Its not my job to judge them outside of football nor yours.

    RESPONSE: Ummm...we're not talking about drug use, hanging out in strip clubs, or even robbery here. We're talking about murder. Murder is a big deal...and is not merely some skeleton in a player's closet.

    2.) The fact that you can judge Ray Lewis and then put L.T. as your top defender with out disclaimer and is laughable and kind of makes your original point mute.

    RESPONSE: Again, with Lewis, we're dealing with murder. But, that had nothing to do with me not rating him as one of the top 5 defenders of all-time. I just don't think that he was that good a player. He had lots of help, as he played with a lot of talented players (Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Haloti Ngata, and Lardarius Webb).

     Lets just stick to football. In my era, there was noone better. I caught the tail end of L.T's career and its hard to gauge him against anyone else when that defense was stacked with all pro linebackers.

    RESPONSE: Even limiting the discussion to your era, there were more disruptive players than Ray-ray. For example, Troy Polamalu, James Harrison, Ed Reed, Terrell Suggs, Jason Taylor, Richard Seymour, Willie McGinest, Dwight Freeney, Derrick Thomas, and Champ Bailey.  

    [/QUOTE]


     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from nhsteven. Show nhsteven's posts

    Re: Ray Lewis the Greatest Defender Ever??

    Overlooked:

     

    Herb Adderley, Emlen Tunnel, Dick LeBeau, Johnny Robinson, Merlin Olsen, Nigh Train Lane, Chuck Bednarik, Gino Marchetti, Mel Blount, Randy White, Willie Brown, Bobby Bell, Joe Schmidt, Willie Davis, Michael Strahan, LeRoy Selmon, Roger Werhli, Junior Seau, Richard Dent, L.C. Greenwood, Jack Youngblood, Paul Krause,  Lester "Stick 'em" Hayes

     

    I apologize for repeats

     
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