In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

and yes, i know the pats offense scores 41 on the texans, so its not like they were shut down all playoffs. but the fact that they scored 41, makes it even more frustrating they they could only manage 13 points the next week.

Well the rest of the team other than Brady didn't play like scared rabbits against the Texans.

brady himself was playing like a scared rabbit....how about the high kick into ed reed's groin? or him running into the ref 5 yards away from the first down? or how about him throwing the ball away when he had enough room to walk for a first down?

Just stop clone. You're not really trying to portray his high leg slide as having some sort of deep dark meaning are you? How Rustylike of you. LMAO@U

Now you're going to blame him for a dufus ref that couldn't get out of the way? Like I said. Just stop. You're getting desperate and looking like even more of a fool for it, Rusty Clone.

first off, no i didnt say there was a deep dark meaning....i just think it was a stupid play and its a bush league thing to do. you cant defend something like that....as far as the ref goes, yea he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but brady just ran into him, he had plenty of open field.

What is wrong with you? Have you received repeated blows to the head? If that is the case... then we all can understand.

Whether Brady's leg lift was intentional or bush league or whatever is MOOT to the point at hand. Really the only reason I can see for any Pats' fan to bring it up is to vent a perverse Brady bashing agenda against the greatest player this team has ever had; shame on you Rusty Clone.

Same goes for the running into the ref. He probably thought the fool was going to get out of the way in the split second and the fool crossed him up and zigged instead of zagged. Again, only a Brady bashing agenda would even bring this quirky play up as some kind of knock on Brady. Rusty Clone.

all those things happened, im not making them up.

im thinking you've taken some hits to the head considering all of your ridiculous excuses. you said some players played like "scared rabbits", but brady didnt. im just saying that that is incorrect because brady played like a little b.itch.

One thing I've noticed is the excuses change from postseason to postseason via the Ballwashers.

So, even if we concede the excuses as fair and legit arguments, they go to the next choices down the excuse Rolodex.

SB 42? Fine, the O Line was bad and the D could have made 1 play out of gas at the end. Pin it on the D, fine, even though the lack of scoring was pitiful beyond belief for an all word, season setting offense.

Ravens playoff loss?  Ok, no Welker, bad day all around for all, but Brady still threw 4 INTs.

Jets playoff loss.   11 points scored through 3 qtrs, 2 of those a Safety by the Pats D. This is where we start to get into the phase where the offense was truly WORSE than the Pats D, but because the aftereffect is the Pats D not bailing out the offense, everyone thinks the root cause is the D.

SB 46.  17 points scored, total, zero in the last 1.5 qtrs on 4+ drives.   Now, because of how the game ended, the D is blamed again, but Brady and offense get off scot free, after the D was the one that bailed out the offense just to even get to the SB.

Playoff loss in title game to Ravens. 13 points scored in the first half, many plays and points left on the field, yet somehow the fact the offense didn't do anything at all for an entire half, that didn't afffect our D allowing 21 points in the half, after 2 turnovers by the offense.

Gee, it sure seems to me that as more time goes by, the evidence lays more so within the offense underperforming more so than the D.

I know it's hard for some to swallow the truth that the "greatest GM of all-time" has saddled Brady with a MEDIOCRE supporting cast.

Now, with a healthy Gronk, Brady does have a top tier talent to work with and is usually able to offset the poor defense and the general mediocrity of the offense. But Gronk hasn't been available in the last two playoff fails. When the going gets tough and his co-great player Gronk isn't healthy, he just can't overcome the mediocrity to downright bad BB has given him.

I'm not sure it was Flacco's passing that was better than Brady's.  Seemed to me his receivers were better.  Boldin caught a ball on the sideline that no Patriot receiver would have come down with (except maybe Gronk, though Gronk would never have run that route).  And Jones's TD catch was grossly underthrown.  It's just that Jones had beaten the defense by half a mile and had time to stop and get a cup of coffee while he waited for the ball (and the defense) to catch up to him.

I had posted this in another thread but figured I would copy it here

Nothing else needs to be said than this.

Only one time since 1974, unless I missed one, has any team won any superbowl while scoring 17 points or fewer.

The Giants in 2007

Pats #1 scoring offense in NFL History in 2007 and still reinging, scored 14 points

EPIC FAILURE

Also in 2011 the Pats had the #3 scoring offense in the league, scored just 17 points

FAILURE (compounded by the offense turning the ball over multiple times AND spotting the other team points!)

Only one team since 1999, unless I missed one, has won the AFC title game while scoring 17 points or fewer.

The 2000 Ravens

Pats #1 scoring offense in league in 2012, #3 scoring offense in NFL history by a mere 3 points behind Greenbay @ #2, scored 13 points in AFCCG

EPIC FAILURE

Brady is not "the" offense. He might be the most important part but it's the unit as a whole that has Epic failed. That includes the OC's and BB as well(because "everything" ultimately is his responsibility, fair or not).

History clearly shows you are not going to fair very well, hardley ever, if your offense can't even score more than 17 points in a game.

In response to RockScully's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

and yes, i know the pats offense scores 41 on the texans, so its not like they were shut down all playoffs. but the fact that they scored 41, makes it even more frustrating they they could only manage 13 points the next week.

Well the rest of the team other than Brady didn't play like scared rabbits against the Texans.

brady himself was playing like a scared rabbit....how about the high kick into ed reed's groin? or him running into the ref 5 yards away from the first down? or how about him throwing the ball away when he had enough room to walk for a first down?

Just stop clone. You're not really trying to portray his high leg slide as having some sort of deep dark meaning are you? How Rustylike of you. LMAO@U

Now you're going to blame him for a dufus ref that couldn't get out of the way? Like I said. Just stop. You're getting desperate and looking like even more of a fool for it, Rusty Clone.

first off, no i didnt say there was a deep dark meaning....i just think it was a stupid play and its a bush league thing to do. you cant defend something like that....as far as the ref goes, yea he was in the wrong place at the wrong time, but brady just ran into him, he had plenty of open field.

What is wrong with you? Have you received repeated blows to the head? If that is the case... then we all can understand.

Whether Brady's leg lift was intentional or bush league or whatever is MOOT to the point at hand. Really the only reason I can see for any Pats' fan to bring it up is to vent a perverse Brady bashing agenda against the greatest player this team has ever had; shame on you Rusty Clone.

Same goes for the running into the ref. He probably thought the fool was going to get out of the way in the split second and the fool crossed him up and zigged instead of zagged. Again, only a Brady bashing agenda would even bring this quirky play up as some kind of knock on Brady. Rusty Clone.

all those things happened, im not making them up.

im thinking you've taken some hits to the head considering all of your ridiculous excuses. you said some players played like "scared rabbits", but brady didnt. im just saying that that is incorrect because brady played like a little b.itch.

One thing I've noticed is the excuses change from postseason to postseason via the Ballwashers.

So, even if we concede the excuses as fair and legit arguments, they go to the next choices down the excuse Rolodex.

SB 42? Fine, the O Line was bad and the D could have made 1 play out of gas at the end. Pin it on the D, fine, even though the lack of scoring was pitiful beyond belief for an all word, season setting offense.

Ravens playoff loss?  Ok, no Welker, bad day all around for all, but Brady still threw 4 INTs.

Jets playoff loss.   11 points scored through 3 qtrs, 2 of those a Safety by the Pats D. This is where we start to get into the phase where the offense was truly WORSE than the Pats D, but because the aftereffect is the Pats D not bailing out the offense, everyone thinks the root cause is the D.

SB 46.  17 points scored, total, zero in the last 1.5 qtrs on 4+ drives.   Now, because of how the game ended, the D is blamed again, but Brady and offense get off scot free, after the D was the one that bailed out the offense just to even get to the SB.

Playoff loss in title game to Ravens. 13 points scored in the first half, many plays and points left on the field, yet somehow the fact the offense didn't do anything at all for an entire half, that didn't afffect our D allowing 21 points in the half, after 2 turnovers by the offense.

Gee, it sure seems to me that as more time goes by, the evidence lays more so within the offense underperforming more so than the D.

The only excuses are the ones from you for the MEDIOCRE team BB has built in recent years around Brady. And they are legion junior. Learn the game dumbkoff.

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

I know it's hard for some to swallow the truth that the "greatest GM of all-time" has saddled Brady with a MEDIOCRE supporting cast.

Now, with a healthy Gronk, Brady does have a top tier talent to work with and is usually able to offset the poor defense and the general mediocrity of the offense. But Gronk hasn't been available in the last two playoff fails. When the going gets tough and his co-great player Gronk isn't healthy, he just can't overcome the mediocrity to downright bad BB has given him.

brady won super bowls with troy brown, deion branch, and david givens as his best options....and he put up more points then too....enough with the excuses that tom doesnt have a good team around him. if he didnt, they wouldnt have had the #1 ranked offense during the regular season, and they wouldnt have had the top scoring rushing offense. they also scored 41 on the texans the week before while gronk was out for 99% of the game. didnt see you saying the pats offense had no weapons then.

One thing I will add: there's no doubt that there's one area of offense that we do lack that would impact that is not easily done: a mobile quarterback. It's tricky as mobile QBs can also get hurt ala RG3, but in general, Brady had a few plays he could have made against the Ravens if he could move a bit better. Kap made some of those plays against them, and while Flacco didn't run for first downs really he did scramble really well and kept plays alive till the defense broke down. We are definitely at a disadvantage in that regard but it's not easily fixed either.

David Patten? Umm, Givens was a what, 7th rd pick and did nothing after leaving? The system helped people like Patten, Givens and even a guy like Branch.   There is no way the talent, including TEs, was better back then.  The way the offense was run was with Weis dictating to Brady, yes.

Troy Brown was great, but Welker is clearly a more lethal threat out of the slot that teams literally gameplan around.

The fact is, a guy like Edelman could be every bit as effective as what Givens was on the flank.  Givens was a good blocker.  He was a good receiver, but you act like he was a star? Please. What about even Hernandez being more of a flanker easily on Given's talent level?  What's the problem?

Gronk and Welker alone command double teams. Not one receiving option for Brady did back in the Weis years and that uncertainty with Brady spreading it around ( which almost suggests that Brady was MORE effective without knowing who would break open, instead of him not waiting for just 2 maybe 3 options to break open), was more effficient and actually helped his INT rate, too.

We also never threw the ball 40 times per game at same rate as we have since 2007 which means there was less commitment to a run game as compared to Weis's way.

I remember in 2002 when Brady coming out gunning, having his worst year of his career because they thought he could throw a lot. Nope. What happened? He wasn't ready for it, Donald Hayes didn't fit, Givens was just a rookie and then needed a another guy to go with their TEs in Graham and Fauria. That guy was Branch, but they still found a way to run plenty in 2003, not allowing Brady to pass more so than he should have been. Brady's worst TD/INT ratio season was 2002, his second year starting. 

Weis and BB reined Brady in.

Learn the game. Whether it's  Gomer Manning trying to do too much or Tom Brady, neither is a good approach.

In response to RockScully's comment:

David Patten? Umm, Givens was a what, 7th rd pick and did nothing after leaving? The system helped people like Patten, Givens and even a guy like Branch.   There is no way the talent, including TEs, was better back then.  The way the offense was run was with Weis dictating to Brady, yes.

Troy Brown was great, but Welker is clearly a more lethal threat out of the slot that teams literally gameplan around.

The fact is, a guy like Edelman could be every bit as effective as what Givens was on the flank.  Givens was a good blocker.  He was a good receiver, but you act like he was a star? Please. What about even Hernandez being more of a flanker easily on Given's talent level?  What's the problem?

Gronk and Welker alone command double teams. Not one receiving option for Brady did back in the Weis years and that uncertainty with Brady spreading it around ( which almost suggests that Brady was MORE effective without knowing who would break open, instead of him not waiting for just 2 maybe 3 options to break open), was more effficient and actually helped his INT rate, too.

We also never threw the ball 40 times per game at same rate as we have since 2007 which means there was less commitment to a run game as compared to Weis's way.

I remember in 2002 when Brady coming out gunning, having his worst year of his career because they thought he could throw a lot. Nope. What happened? He wasn't ready for it, Donald Hayes didn't fit, Givens was just a rookie and then needed a another guy to go with their TEs in Graham and Fauria. That guy was Branch, but they still found a way to run plenty in 2003, not allowing Brady to pass more so than he should have been. Brady's worst TD/INT ratio season was 2002, his second year starting. 

Weis and BB reined Brady in.

Learn the game. Whether it's  Gomer Manning trying to do too much or Tom Brady, neither is a good approach.

Im gonna start a thread and see who really knows football. Thats fine if you think Edleman and Slater are better than Brown, Patten, I mean u can choose ANY 2 and there is NO way the Pats current recieving corp outside of Gronk is even close. YOU NEED TO LEARN THE GAME! You like to ignore facts JUST to support your warped Brady agenda and thats why you get NO Love here....   Lets see how much $$ Edleman commands......LMAO!

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

I know it's hard for some to swallow the truth that the "greatest GM of all-time" has saddled Brady with a MEDIOCRE supporting cast.

Now, with a healthy Gronk, Brady does have a top tier talent to work with and is usually able to offset the poor defense and the general mediocrity of the offense. But Gronk hasn't been available in the last two playoff fails. When the going gets tough and his co-great player Gronk isn't healthy, he just can't overcome the mediocrity to downright bad BB has given him.

brady won super bowls with troy brown, deion branch, and david givens as his best options....and he put up more points then too....enough with the excuses that tom doesnt have a good team around him. if he didnt, they wouldnt have had the #1 ranked offense during the regular season, and they wouldnt have had the top scoring rushing offense. they also scored 41 on the texans the week before while gronk was out for 99% of the game. didnt see you saying the pats offense had no weapons then.

Im sorry but  you dont think Branch(2003), Brown(2003), and Givens were not better than Wes, Branch(2012), Llloyd??

I dont get how people keep saying we are loaded. Gronk is the ONLY guy who can be talked about as best at his position. Brown, Patten, Givens, Branch, Graham,. We still havent come close to that.  Our 3rd and 4th recievers this year were Slater, Aiken after Edleman went down.

Let me also remind you that Branch, Givens, Patten ALL recieved Mulit million dollar deals to leave here. let me know when someone offers money to Edleman, Slater or Aiken...??

Im sorry, but you DO need to learn the game more. People think the Defense did everything back then, when they didnt. They just got the same turnovers in postseason that they got in reg. season and these teams dont. Brady has never come close to having that talent again. Dont mistake Wes' bloated numbers as example he is better than Troy Brown. Brown was a GAMER! I bet Wes would have droppped that pass Brown made in 01' to get us in FG range because he had to reach up and grab with his HANDS and Wes has SUSPECT hands in the clutch. Needs to catch with his body. 07' team, take out Moss and Wes AND what do you have?? Not nearly the clutch players we had in 03'

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

I know it's hard for some to swallow the truth that the "greatest GM of all-time" has saddled Brady with a MEDIOCRE supporting cast.

Now, with a healthy Gronk, Brady does have a top tier talent to work with and is usually able to offset the poor defense and the general mediocrity of the offense. But Gronk hasn't been available in the last two playoff fails. When the going gets tough and his co-great player Gronk isn't healthy, he just can't overcome the mediocrity to downright bad BB has given him.

brady won super bowls with troy brown, deion branch, and david givens as his best options....and he put up more points then too....enough with the excuses that tom doesnt have a good team around him. if he didnt, they wouldnt have had the #1 ranked offense during the regular season, and they wouldnt have had the top scoring rushing offense. they also scored 41 on the texans the week before while gronk was out for 99% of the game. didnt see you saying the pats offense had no weapons then.

One thing I will add: there's no doubt that there's one area of offense that we do lack that would impact that is not easily done: a mobile quarterback. It's tricky as mobile QBs can also get hurt ala RG3, but in general, Brady had a few plays he could have made against the Ravens if he could move a bit better. Kap made some of those plays against them, and while Flacco didn't run for first downs really he did scramble really well and kept plays alive till the defense broke down. We are definitely at a disadvantage in that regard but it's not easily fixed either.

In response to redsoxfan94's comment:

In response to BabeParilli's comment:

I know it's hard for some to swallow the truth that the "greatest GM of all-time" has saddled Brady with a MEDIOCRE supporting cast.

Now, with a healthy Gronk, Brady does have a top tier talent to work with and is usually able to offset the poor defense and the general mediocrity of the offense. But Gronk hasn't been available in the last two playoff fails. When the going gets tough and his co-great player Gronk isn't healthy, he just can't overcome the mediocrity to downright bad BB has given him.

brady won super bowls with troy brown, deion branch, and david givens as his best options....and he put up more points then too....enough with the excuses that tom doesnt have a good team around him. if he didnt, they wouldnt have had the #1 ranked offense during the regular season, and they wouldnt have had the top scoring rushing offense. they also scored 41 on the texans the week before while gronk was out for 99% of the game. didnt see you saying the pats offense had no weapons then.

The 2003 team had the #1 D in the league and the 2004 was #4. That 2004 team had a super running game with Dillon as well. None of the receivers you mention had huge drops like some of our current guys do.

As far as your point about the offense against the Texans, the mediocre team around Brady didn't run away like scared rabbits and managed to play well in that one.

Face the reality that these teams BB has built just aren't as good as the ones with the great players he inherited were. Learn the game Rusty.

David Patten? Umm, Givens was a what, 7th rd pick and did nothing after leaving? The system helped people like Patten, Givens and even a guy like Branch.

In response to BostonTrollSpanker's comment:

One thing I will add: there's no doubt that there's one area of offense that we do lack that would impact that is not easily done: a mobile quarterback. It's tricky as mobile QBs can also get hurt ala RG3, but in general, Brady had a few plays he could have made against the Ravens if he could move a bit better. Kap made some of those plays against them, and while Flacco didn't run for first downs really he did scramble really well and kept plays alive till the defense broke down. We are definitely at a disadvantage in that regard but it's not easily fixed either.

Few QBs who run a lot pay no price for that added dimension. Montana had back problems later in his career. Young and Rodgers have/had multiple concussions. Vick has become a constant injury issue.

The extra threat a good running QB brings is enticing. But that is going to have to be paid for somehow. And that somehow is the much greater likelihood of a season being derailed with an injury and the real prospects of a truncated career.

Baltimore won the game on a defensive goal line stand that we were unable to accomplish when they scored at will on us two weeks ago. They made the stop when it mattered most. Something the Pats were NOT able to do during our two Super Bowl losses. 

I love how you have established this narrative and now that you have your narrative facts don't matter, well except facts that support your narrative. 

Yes the game has shifted towards offenses - particulary in the regular season. In the postseason defense and the physicality of the game has an impact. Yes offense still matters, Dilfer or Johnson probably wouldn't win a Super Bowl anymore, so you're right to a point, things have shifted. But there's no question that in the playoffs, the great offenses largely cancel each other out and it comes down to turnovers (defense) and big stops (defense). 

Here's a tip: watch the games. Or better yet watch the games with someone who doesn't have an agenda that colors everything they see.