1. You have chosen to ignore posts from wwsf4ever. Show wwsf4ever's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 9:51 AM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    ...unless of course you aren't an avid Pat fans, in which case the replay doesn't show anything clearly.  He definitely bobbles the ball, but it doesn't seem to show exactly where he gains control...
    Posted by JulesWinfield


    Julie,
    Actually I live in a Colts town, and went online to NFL.COM ran the highlight through for the colts fans that I work with.  When you get to 57 seconds on said tape (of that play) you can see clearly that Mr Faulk is in complete possession of the ball.. with one foot on the ground between the 30, and 31... and the other foot about to come down just inside the 30....  I have two pwoplw who are season tix holders where I work (COLTS).... and I have three others who have their cars adorned with Colts stickers....  OF the 5 three of them said- "Yeah he had it- but the refs decision is what counts..... the other two said- well.... BBB blew it by not having a timeout so that he could challenge.

    I believe he had it.... I also believe that INDY gets calls in Lucas stadium unlike any I have ever seen.  IF you want to beat indy in indy you need to beat 18 players on the field at a time.....  YOU cannot throw an interception in the endzone... nor fumble into the endzone against them when they are at home.
    They will get every call going their way.... How about the phantom Pass Interferrence for 31 yards given to COLLIE.....   The defender was PLAYING THE BALL.... and the offensive player came back and ran into him...... LOL

    What a joke- POUTIN is the leagues annointed star and they will do what they have to that allows them to keep up his "INVINCIBLE" appearance....
     

  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from wwsf4ever. Show wwsf4ever's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 9:59 AM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Replay clearly shows .............. Welker was open 2 yards farther downfield.
    Posted by jbolted

    jbolted....

    I AGREE.. but I think that Brady lost Welker behind the umpire during his route running.

    IF you watch the highlight on NFL.COM you can see that Welker starts on the left side of the formation and crosses.  As he comes across the middle he passes behind the umpire as Brady is loking to the center of the field.  Therefore he looks covered (if he is even spotted)... SO Brady looks far right sees Faulk and throws the ball.  Just after Brady throws the ball it is obvious that Welker is open a couple yards past Faulk, but the decision and action on brady's part are over.

    There were a bunch of ways this game could have turned out different..... more than one mistake was made... and well I still do not believe making the attempt was a mistake.
    I DON'T CARE what a bunch of HAS BEENS say....
    Look at the pats statisticew going for it on 4th down... for the last few years... realize that Brady, Welker, Moss and Faulk are the "Stars" of the team (Not the defense)... realize they have come through numerous times... and compare that to how easily Poutin can have phantom PI's called for his team...... It was an informed decision, and one twhere BB put the game in the hands of his best players when they asked him to.  They forgot that they were in Lucas Oil Stadium.... Hey didn;t Donahy get out of jail recently (the crooked NBA ref?)

     

  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 10:32 AM EST

    Okay, I watched the Youtube link.  It seems you could say he had control about the time his feet hit the ground.  So, looking at the angle from the sideline, that looked to be somewhere around the 30.  But the camera angle still has a little paralax to it - it was being shot from down the field a little bit.  That means that from the angle shown the ball is going to appear a little farther down the field than it was.  It's the same principle that makes the spedometer appear to have a different reading from the passenger seat than from driver's seat.  We'd have to see the view from straight on at the 30 yard line to really know, and it sounds like that view does not exist...

     

  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 10:43 AM EST

    It seems to me that Belichick still had a challenge available for just this instance.  How come he did not use it?  I need answers from Pats fans. 
     

  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from antibody. Show antibody's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 11:17 AM EST

    PARALLAX???
    We're really reaching now!
    Do you know what it is? You sure can't spell it.
     

  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from NickC1188. Show NickC1188's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 11:24 AM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Youtube "Deion Sanders fourth down".  They all say he had the first.
    Posted by themightypatriotz


    Thanks for the video search terms

    After seeing the breakdown, I don't know whether to feel better or feel worse...
     

  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from qball369. Show qball369's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 11:50 AM EST

    I am wondering if anyone thought about the spot this way: I watch quite a bit of football and I have rarely( practically never) scene a player not awarded full forward progress, regardless of the actual cotrol of ball issues.....

    That's what I was thinking when they made the spot, that this type of play happens all the time in every game I see and the refs always award forward progress.....except this time.......

    The refs explanation sounded to me alot like the SEC ref who called the PF on the Arkanasas player vs Florida without actually seeing what happened.........very suspect, especially considering the team involved
     

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    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 12:49 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Okay, I watched the Youtube link.  It seems you could say he had control about the time his feet hit the ground.  So, looking at the angle from the sideline, that looked to be somewhere around the 30.  But the camera angle still has a little paralax to it - it was being shot from down the field a little bit.  That means that from the angle shown the ball is going to appear a little farther down the field than it was.  It's the same principle that makes the spedometer appear to have a different reading from the passenger seat than from driver's seat.  We'd have to see the view from straight on at the 30 yard line to really know, and it sounds like that view does not exist...
    Posted by JulesWinfield


    As you said his feet hit the ground.  The thirty yard line is clearly drawn on the ground. 

    Camera angle doesn't matter here; his feet are clearly touching the ground and he has possession beyound the thirty.

     

  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from PATMAN81. Show PATMAN81's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:01 PM EST

    The result was "turnover on downs".  Like or leave it.  Our own da*n decisions put us in that situation.  Stop bit*hin about Herm (or any other dissenter for that matter), the officials or whatever other excuses we in the "myopic nation" want to dream up.  I'm sick of it.  Man up... Everything leading up to and during 4th & 2 don't mask the fact that someone's NEURONS failed to fire up after 4th & 2.  Deal with it.  In the end, we lost because our coaching staff didn't give Tom Brady the last 1:30+ to try to win.  Maybe we still lose, but at least we would've had an opportunity to go down swinging.
     

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    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:09 PM EST

    Did I really get blasted for spelling "parallax" wrong?  What a great catch that must mean I'm full of dookie, huh? 

    I still say that none of the replays show anything clearly.  His feet are on or around the 30 when they come down, which is where he seems to get control of the ball.  However, he seems to be coming back a little for the ball and it would make sense that the ball is not quite where his feet are.  Someone here asserted with certainty that he was leaning forward so the ball was probably around the 31, but it seems the opposite to me.  I think we're all seeing what we want to see...
     

  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Diesel12. Show Diesel12's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:12 PM EST

    Chris Mortenson from ESPN actually said that he thinks they got the first down as well and showed a slow motion replay that clearly showed he was bobbling the ball past the first down line and got control of the ball before falling back. He said "the refs claim it was because of a bobble but if you look closely, he was not bobbling behind the line" He also stated that according to league sources, the league probably would not have overturned it regardless because it was not 100 percent irrefutable. The sad part is, the NFL is becoming like the WWE especially in regards to the Mannings. I remember in 2005 when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl this decade they played Indy and Indy and every call was going against the Steelers. The Steelers still found a way to win given Peyton's tendency to choke in the playoffs. the next year was the AFC Championship game in which the league successfully fixed the outcome of the game. If we remember the year after, Super Bowl XLII in which the other NFL glory boy Eli was clearly wrapped up and the play was allowed to continue leading to the David Tyree helmet catch. This has been a 6 year trend starting with the league changing the pass interference rules following the 2004 Colts loss, to the 2005 Steelers playoff game in Indy, the 2006 AFC Championship game, the 2007 Super Bowl and on and on. Just like when Hulk Hogan was in the WWF, no matter how bad he was getting beat you knew he would win in the end. The Mannings are the NFL's Hulk Hogan and the Patriots are their Iron Sheik.
     

  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:33 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Chris Mortenson from ESPN actually said that he thinks they got the first down as well and showed a slow motion replay that clearly showed he was bobbling the ball past the first down line and got control of the ball before falling back. He said "the refs claim it was because of a bobble but if you look closely, he was not bobbling behind the line" He also stated that according to league sources, the league probably would not have overturned it regardless because it was not 100 percent irrefutable. The sad part is, the NFL is becoming like the WWE especially in regards to the Mannings. I remember in 2005 when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl this decade they played Indy and Indy and every call was going against the Steelers. The Steelers still found a way to win given Peyton's tendency to choke in the playoffs. the next year was the AFC Championship game in which the league successfully fixed the outcome of the game. If we remember the year after, Super Bowl XLII in which the other NFL glory boy Eli was clearly wrapped up and the play was allowed to continue leading to the David Tyree helmet catch. This has been a 6 year trend starting with the league changing the pass interference rules following the 2004 Colts loss, to the 2005 Steelers playoff game in Indy, the 2006 AFC Championship game, the 2007 Super Bowl and on and on. Just like when Hulk Hogan was in the WWF, no matter how bad he was getting beat you knew he would win in the end. The Mannings are the NFL's Hulk Hogan and the Patriots are their Iron Sheik.
    Posted by Diesel12


    Jeez, you guys are really taking on the clinical paranoia characteristics of your head coach!  Everyone's out to get the Pats and there must be a memo distributed to every ref in the league to make sure all calls are in the favor of the Manning brothers!  lol.
     

  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:36 PM EST

    No Sh It was a first down game over.
     

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    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:42 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Did I really get blasted for spelling "parallax" wrong?  What a great catch that must mean I'm full of dookie, huh?  I still say that none of the replays show anything clearly.  His feet are on or around the 30 when they come down, which is where he seems to get control of the ball.  However, he seems to be coming back a little for the ball and it would make sense that the ball is not quite where his feet are.  Someone here asserted with certainty that he was leaning forward so the ball was probably around the 31, but it seems the opposite to me.  I think we're all seeing what we want to see...
    Posted by JulesWinfield


    everything except the "truth"
     

  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:46 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    ...unless of course you aren't an avid Pat fans, in which case the replay doesn't show anything clearly.  He definitely bobbles the ball, but it doesn't seem to show exactly where he gains control...
    Posted by JulesWinfield


    "He definitely bobbles the ball"?  NOT.

    The "bobble" only occurs in the imaginations of pats' haters.

    Not to mention, when was the last time you ever saw yardage deducted from any spot to adjust for a "bobble"? You either have a completion or you have an incompletion. You don't allow officials to deduct yardage for style points.

    Was there any yardage deduction in the 2007 superbowl when whats-his-name juggled the the ball that ended up balanced on top of his helmet? No. Was that full control? I don't think so. It was at least bobbled between the time it hit his hands and it ended up on top of his helmet. I don't remember a yardage penalty for that particular bobble. 
     
    If you have control of the ball when you're tackled, its a completion and forward progress is forward progress! period.

    I agree we have to move on but let's not make believe that this was a legitimately officiated decision. Its yet another example of the "indianapolis brain cramp" that affects NFL officials whenever they work in polian's house.
     

  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 1:48 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down : Jeez, you guys are really taking on the clinical paranoia characteristics of your head coach!  Everyone's out to get the Pats and there must be a memo distributed to every ref in the league to make sure all calls are in the favor of the Manning brothers!  lol.
    Posted by JulesWinfield


    Hey, if you don't like the posts get the f*ck our board, troll.
     

  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from unclealfie. Show unclealfie's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:02 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Chris Mortenson from ESPN actually said that he thinks they got the first down as well and showed a slow motion replay that clearly showed he was bobbling the ball past the first down line and got control of the ball before falling back. He said "the refs claim it was because of a bobble but if you look closely, he was not bobbling behind the line" He also stated that according to league sources, the league probably would not have overturned it regardless because it was not 100 percent irrefutable. The sad part is, the NFL is becoming like the WWE especially in regards to the Mannings. I remember in 2005 when the Steelers won their first Super Bowl this decade they played Indy and Indy and every call was going against the Steelers. The Steelers still found a way to win given Peyton's tendency to choke in the playoffs. the next year was the AFC Championship game in which the league successfully fixed the outcome of the game. If we remember the year after, Super Bowl XLII in which the other NFL glory boy Eli was clearly wrapped up and the play was allowed to continue leading to the David Tyree helmet catch. This has been a 6 year trend starting with the league changing the pass interference rules following the 2004 Colts loss, to the 2005 Steelers playoff game in Indy, the 2006 AFC Championship game, the 2007 Super Bowl and on and on. Just like when Hulk Hogan was in the WWF, no matter how bad he was getting beat you knew he would win in the end. The Mannings are the NFL's Hulk Hogan and the Patriots are their Iron Sheik.
    Posted by Diesel12


    That's a great summary of the past few seasons' trends, diesel.

    I've never been one to believe that the NFL is somehow rigged or games would be unfairly unfluenced to NFL sanctioned officials' actions but given the trend that you've summarized, I'm starting to think its not impossible.

    At some point, continual coincidences become an invalid explanation.

    I remember the SI that came out right after the SB, clearly showing a giant's Olineman with his arm fully around seymour's throat as he was reaching out for manning lite. And that whole bit about completing a pass, when you have the ball balanced on top of your helmet. Not what I'd call "under control" and where was the "bobbling" penalty on that play?

    Every recent game we've played in indy has been accompanied by numerous "odd calls", virtually all in favor of the colts.Topped off by the phantom PI call in the 2006 AFC championship game against ellis hobbs that handed yet another tainted win to the colts and led to manning's only SB win. Great that ellis got an official apology the following spring after jughead was already wearing his ring.

    I can only hope that the pattern ends  this year and we get a level playing field when we play the colts in foxboro for the next three years. Unless polian finds a way to change the NFL scheduling system this winter. 

     

  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:03 PM EST

    "The "bobble" only occurs in the imaginations of pats' haters.  Not to mention, when was the last time you ever saw yardage deducted from any spot to adjust for a "bobble"? You either have a completion or you have an incompletion. You don't allow officials to deduct yardage for style points."

    Sounds like you believe your team should get forward progress for instances in which you don't have the ball.  Very bold stance.  Most of us believe that forward progress should only be awarded when you gain possession of the ball.  Don't change your stance, though, it would be boring if we ALL understood the rules!
     

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    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:04 PM EST

    Every angle I've seen is inconclusive at best, which means the play as called on the field would've stood in the absence of irrefutable evidence that Faulk made the 1st down.  No smoking guns here.
     

  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:09 PM EST

    I think it is a call that could have gone either way.  Certainly the use of video and replay and slow motion etc creates a compelling arguement. 

    Now can we understand why Belichick used video to capture opposing coaches signals instead of someone writing it down with pen and paper?

    At any rate, reconsider the real time decision that the ref made and it is understandable how he made the decision he made.  He saw the bobble. 

    The good news is that the NFL, FOR EXACTLY THIS REASON, has given teams an opportunity to challenge calls.  The pats lost that opportunity with their mistake filled second half by using them all up. 

    That call could have gone either way and if pats fans don't see that then you are not thinking rationally.  Blame both your coach and your team for their failure to have the ability to challenge the call, not the refs.
     

  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from underdogg. Show underdogg's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:10 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    Every angle I've seen is inconclusive at best, which means the play as called on the field would've stood in the absence of irrefutable evidence that Faulk made the 1st down.  No smoking guns here.
    Posted by BrooklineRob


    Mike Pereira, head of officiating, has already said exactly that. 
     

  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Harleyroadking99. Show Harleyroadking99's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:12 PM EST

    In the replay WW is open over the middle. He scrapes past the ref and is in front of the defender....OH Well not to be ....on the the Jets




     

  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from PATMAN81. Show PATMAN81's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:45 PM EST

    In Response to Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down:
    In the replay WW is open over the middle. He scrapes past the ref and is in front of the defender....OH Well not to be ....on the the Jets
    Posted by Harleyroadking99


    Look at the video again, although Wes is open, Brady can't see him because of the official obscuring the view.
     

  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 2:57 PM EST

    "You're not going to believe this but pats fans are actually talking smack about the Jets after the Jets beat the living snot out of the pats in week # 2! I know I can't believe it either-I always thought your team was supposed to Win not Lose before opening your traps???"

    That's the way it is around here.  These guys talked trash about the Colts losing to the Chargers in the playoffs last year, and not only did the Colts beat the Pats last year but the Pats failed to even make the playoffs!  What's more, the last time the Colts and Pats met in the playoff, the Colts won!  And these guys are somehow certain that their team is vastly superior to the Colts...reality is not recognized on these matters.
     

  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rodimus77. Show Rodimus77's posts

    Re: Replay clearly shows Faulk made first down

    posted at 11/18/2009 3:01 PM EST

    Stevie Wonder even saw that Faulk made that first down.
    Oh well, its over and done. On to Cryan Ryan and his New York Jets.
    Go Pats! Crush the Jets!