Sebastian Vollmer

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

     

    no matter how many years he is here, 1 thru 4, the AAV of the contract is slightly over $4M...unless he is here only 1 year, then the AAV is $7.5M

    just admit it, will ya

     

     




    Again per my previous post I think it depends how you define the average value.  What you are doing is dividing the money paid out by the number of years he plays.  An alternative would be to divide the total salary cap hit by the number of years it is on the books.  If you do that and he is cut after year 3 he counts 12.5 million against the cap over 4 years which is  3.125 a year.  Sure from Arrington's perspective he got 12.5 million in cash over 3 years, but what is more relevant to NE is the cap hit.  Like I said previously you can make arguments for both definitions, but you and Rusty appear to be arguing about 2 separate things.

     




    I think what everyone is trying to agree upon or what everyone should be trying to agree upon is how much total cap dollar is the team going to be on the books for if Arrington is cut....  I don't care what the guy ends up pocketing... I want to know the total cap charge if he is cut....

    After season 1

    After season 2

    after season 3

    after season 4

     

     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rocky. Show Rocky's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    Some different #'s!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     

    Field Yates @FieldYates 1h

    Details on Vollmer's deal via @MikeGarafolo: 4-ys, $7M to sign, $7.75M in base salaries, $10M in roster bonuses/incentives. Max value=$27M.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Rocky. Show Rocky's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    Volmmer deal will have $8.25 million guaranteed

     

    Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2013, 5:23 PM EDT sebastian-vollmerGetty Images

    Some confusion has surfaced as to whether the Patriots and tackle Sebastian Vollmer have agreed to terms.  Per a source with knowledge of the situation, they have.

    The four-year contract will pay $8.25 million Vollmer guaranteed, and it will have a base value of $17 million.  Another $9 million will be available in playing-time incentives and roster bonuses, along with a $1 million Pro Bowl bonus.

    Vollmer, a German-born player who arrived via round two of the 2009 draft, didn’t draw a lot of interest in free agency, presumably because no one believed he wanted to leave New England.

    He didn’t.  And he won’t be.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to TFB12's comment:



    I think what everyone is trying to agree upon or what everyone should be trying to agree upon is how much total cap dollaris the team going to be on the books for if Arrington is cut....  I don't care what the guy ends up pocketing... I want to know the total cap charge if he is cut....

     

    After season 1

    After season 2

    after season 3

    after season 4 



    This is based on my understanding of the contract.  He received a 7.5 million signing bonus.  That hit is prorated over the life of the contract meaning it accounts for 1.625 million dollars of the cap in the years 2013-2016 regardless of what happens to him.

    In his first season he will count 2.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2013 it will create 4.875 million in dead money (the 1.625 portions of his prorated bonus over the remaining 3 years 2014, 2015 and 2016) meaning his total cap hit will be 7.5 million spread over 4 years (the 2.625 in the first year which he played and then the prorated portions of his bonus in the 3 seasons he doesn't)

    In his second season he will count 3.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2014 it will create 3.25 million in dead money (again the 2 remaining seasons worth of prorated bonus).  That would make his total cap hit 9.5 million over 4 years (2.625 in season 1, 3.625 in season 2 and then 1.625 is seasons 3 and 4 when he isn't on the team).

    In his third season he will count 4.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2015 it will creatae 1.625 million in dead money (the prorated portion of his bonus in 2016).  That would make his total cap hit 12.5 million over 4 years (2.625 in his first season, 3.625 in his second, 4.625 in his third and 1.625 in the 4th season when he isn't on the team.

    In his fourth season he will count 5.125 million against the cap.  If he plays out his contract the total cap hit is 16 million over 4 years (2.625, 3.625, 4.625, 5.625).  The cap hit in the 4th season is a bit high although the salary cap should go up by then.  My guess is after year 3 BB will either ask Kyle to renegotiate or cut him unless he becomes a much better corner meaning Arrington will only count 12.5 against the cap over 4 years as described in the scenario where I mentioned what happens if he is cut after the 3rd season.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to Rocky's comment:

    Volmmer deal will have $8.25 million guaranteed

     

    Posted by Mike Florio on March 25, 2013, 5:23 PM EDT sebastian-vollmerGetty Images

    Some confusion has surfaced as to whether the Patriots and tackle Sebastian Vollmer have agreed to terms.  Per a source with knowledge of the situation, they have.

    The four-year contract will pay $8.25 million Vollmer guaranteed, and it will have a base value of $17 million.  Another $9 million will be available in playing-time incentives and roster bonuses, along with a $1 million Pro Bowl bonus.

    Vollmer, a German-born player who arrived via round two of the 2009 draft, didn’t draw a lot of interest in free agency, presumably because no one believed he wanted to leave New England.

    He didn’t.  And he won’t be.




    So basically if he stays healthy and plays like a top tackle we still get him for 6.5 million a year (26/4).  If he doesn't we get him for as little as 4.25 a year (17/4).  Good deal imo.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    no matter how many years he is here, 1 thru 4, the AAV of the contract is slightly over $4M...unless he is here only 1 year, then the AAV is $7.5M

    just admit it, will ya

     




    Again per my previous post I think it depends how you define the average value.  What you are doing is dividing the money paid out by the number of years he plays.  An alternative would be to divide the total salary cap hit by the number of years it is on the books.  If you do that and he is cut after year 3 he counts 12.5 million against the cap over 4 years which is  3.125 a year.  Sure from Arrington's perspective he got 12.5 million over 3 years, but what is more relevant to NE is the cap hit.  Like I said previously you can make arguments for both definitions, but you and Rusty appear to be arguing about 2 separate things.

     

     




    Thank you. That's what RKarp and his minions don't get. They see things in black and white and black and white only.  They then pretend they have some kind of superior intellect, which makes it even funnier.

     

    Just because the report says "4 years, 16 million", they just assume the average is 4 million automatically and it just isn't true.  It could eventually realize full value, but it's unlikely.

    A closer look shows us that Arrington won't likely be here past 2015.

    There is a reason why RKarp is using the formula he does. He thinks every single move BB makes is awful and every single one any other AFC team/competitor makes is outstanding.

    lol

    Could it be any more obvious?

    The bottom line is, BB is not going to keep a known commodity here and overpay on the market. It just doesn't happen, save Logan Mankins.

     



    PCM is incorrect. If Arrington gets cut after 3 years, his AAV is based on those 3 years, so the $12.5 referenced is over $4.0 for those 3 years. You don't figure the AAV in his 4th year if he is cut after 3

    Rusty wrong again (he said $2.75) ....still oh for March

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to rkarp's comment:


    PCM is incorrect. If Arrington gets cut after 3 years, his AAV is based on those 3 years, so the $12.5 referenced is over $4.0 for those 3 years. You don't figure the AAV in his 4th year if he is cut after 3

     

    Rusty wrong again (he said $2.75) ....still oh for March



    The 12.5 is spread over 4 years though.  Sure Kyle is only on the team for 3, but his cap hit is over 4.  I just posted more about it based on my understanding of the contract.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:



    I think what everyone is trying to agree upon or what everyone should be trying to agree upon is how much total cap dollaris the team going to be on the books for if Arrington is cut....  I don't care what the guy ends up pocketing... I want to know the total cap charge if he is cut....

     

     

    After season 1

    After season 2

    after season 3

    after season 4 

     



    This is based on my understanding of the contract.  He received a 7.5 million signing bonus.  That hit is prorated over the life of the contract meaning it accounts for 1.625 million dollars of the cap in the years 2013-2016 regardless of what happens to him.

     

    In his first season he will count 2.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2013 it will create 4.875 million in dead money (the 1.625 portions of his prorated bonus over the remaining 3 years 2014, 2015 and 2016) meaning his total cap hit will be 7.5 million spread over 4 years (the 2.625 in the first year which he played and then the prorated portions of his bonus in the 3 seasons he doesn't)

    In his second season he will count 3.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2014 it will create 3.25 million in dead money (again the 2 remaining seasons worth of prorated bonus).  That would make his total cap hit 9.5 million over 4 years (2.625 in season 1, 3.625 in season 2 and then 1.625 is seasons 3 and 4 when he isn't on the team).

    In his third season he will count 4.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2015 it will creatae 1.625 million in dead money (the prorated portion of his bonus in 2016).  That would make his total cap hit 12.5 million over 4 years (2.625 in his first season, 3.625 in his second, 4.625 in his third and 1.625 in the 4th season when he isn't on the team.

    In his fourth season he will count 5.125 million against the cap.  If he plays out his contract the total cap hit is 16 million over 4 years (2.625, 3.625, 4.625, 5.625).  The cap hit in the 4th season is a bit high although the salary cap should go up by then.  My guess is after year 3 BB will either ask Kyle to renegotiate or cut him unless he becomes a much better corner meaning Arrington will only count 12.5 against the cap over 4 years as described in the scenario where I mentioned what happens if he is cut after the 3rd season.



    You can't spread cap hits in years a player is not on the team. The bonus money is accelerated to that so cap hit year 1 is $7.5

     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to rkarp's comment:


    You can't spread cap hits in years a player is not on the team. The bonus money is accelerated to that so cap hit year 1 is $7.5



    Then how does dead money ever stay on the books for more than a year?

     

     
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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from nomadfan. Show nomadfan's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

     




    So basically if he stays healthy and plays like a top tackle we still get him for 6.5 million a year (26/4).  If he doesn't we get him for as little as 4.25 a year (17/4).  Good deal imo.

    Wow, another great deal by BB, using his leverage and embarassing people like RKarp. Great move to keep him and not destroy the budget.

     

    Best RT in the NFL, right there, folks.

     




    Will BB himself take a team friendly contract and agree in his next contract to significantly less money than the average market rate for a head coach and GM in the NFL?  Will Robert Kraft cut ticket prices, rents for the spaces in the stadium and charges for parking, beer, soda and hot dogs ? Or do the low balling tactics only to be used on players?

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In his first season he will count 2.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2013 it will create 4.875 million in dead money (the 1.625 portions of his prorated bonus over the remaining 3 years 2014, 2015 and 2016) meaning his total cap hit will be 7.5 million spread over 4 years (the 2.625 in the first year which he played and then the prorated portions of his bonus in the 3 seasons he doesn't)


    This is incorrect.  If he is cut after 2013, the remainder of his signing bonus is accelerated onto the cap.  So, he would count 2.625 million against the cap in 2013, and he will count 4.875 million against the cap in 2014 when he's not here.  There will be no cap charge in 2015 or 2016.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:


    No, I am not. The cap hit average is around 2.75. ALl I care about is cap hit in 2013 and 2014. That's it.



    Which is either 2.625 (2013) and 4.875 (2014) if he is cut after Year 1.

    Or 2.625 (2013) and 3.625 (2014), with an additional 3.3 million in salary cap charges still due for 2015 and beyond.

    These are the only 2 salary cap possibilities for 2013/2014.  Neither one averages 2.75 million.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to MattC05's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In his first season he will count 2.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2013 it will create 4.875 million in dead money (the 1.625 portions of his prorated bonus over the remaining 3 years 2014, 2015 and 2016) meaning his total cap hit will be 7.5 million spread over 4 years (the 2.625 in the first year which he played and then the prorated portions of his bonus in the 3 seasons he doesn't)

     

     


    This is incorrect.  If he is cut after 2013, the remainder of his signing bonus is accelerated onto the cap.  So, he would count 2.625 million against the cap in 2013, and he will count 4.875 million against the cap in 2014 when he's not here.  There will be no cap charge in 2015 or 2016.



    Rkarp already said this but if that were true how does dead money ever last for more than a year. For example Fanene is still counting as dead money this season assuming we don't win that court case.  How is that possible if the bonus cannot be spread out?

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to MattC05's comment:

     

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In his first season he will count 2.625 million against the cap.  If he is cut after 2013 it will create 4.875 million in dead money (the 1.625 portions of his prorated bonus over the remaining 3 years 2014, 2015 and 2016) meaning his total cap hit will be 7.5 million spread over 4 years (the 2.625 in the first year which he played and then the prorated portions of his bonus in the 3 seasons he doesn't)

     

     


    This is incorrect.  If he is cut after 2013, the remainder of his signing bonus is accelerated onto the cap.  So, he would count 2.625 million against the cap in 2013, and he will count 4.875 million against the cap in 2014 when he's not here.  There will be no cap charge in 2015 or 2016.

     



    Rkarp already said this but if that were true how does dead money ever last for more than a year. For example Fanene is still counting as dead money this season assuming we don't win that court case.  How is that possible if the bonus cannot be spread out?

     




    Because Fanene was on the team last year.  He signed his contract during the 2012 league year; he was cut during the 2012 league year.  The bonus therefore is accelerated onto the 2013 cap.  He also had some funny deferred bonus language in his contract.

     
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  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    It's only a solid deal if he stays healthy....that's the risk

    He was never going to get top money with a suspect disk issue..

    For any team to take a risk it had to be for less than market value..

    Vollmer finally figured that out.........

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    Dude, I didn't pull out a calculator. THe cap hits in 2013 and 2014 are what?  Then average the hit in 2015.

     

    It's not a 4 million average cap hit.

    PCM's average is correct.  BB is putting on a clinic. Sit back and enjoy it instead of playing semantics with cap hits and total contract worth averages.



    This is why I'm not letting it go over what you think is minor differences:  Dead money is bad.  It's cap charges for somebody who's not playing for you.  You can't add in 2015 to average out the total cap charge over 3 years, because he only gave you 2.  That means you have to pay a replacement, which bumps that number up more.

    I frankly don't care how many years the total cap hit is spread over; I care about the actual cap dollars he cost, and the actual years he played for us.  This is how anyone who understands the salary cap views contracts.

     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    Here is how signing bonuses are treated:

    Payment:  The full amount is paid when the player signs.  Arrington gets all 6.5 of his signing bonus now.

    Salary cap accounting:  For salary cap purposes, the signing bonus amount is divided by the number of years in the contract (up to a maximum of 5), and the resulting amount is credited to the cap each year for the life of the contract or for five years, whichever is shorter.  So for Arrington, the 6.5 is divided by four and the resulting 1.625 is credited each year to the cap for the four years of the contract.

    If a player is cut: Any part of the signing bonus that has not yet been accounted for against the cap is "accelerated" and counts against the cap for the upcoming season (if the player is cut on or before June 1) or for the season afterwards (if the player is cut on or after June 2). If Arrington is cut after the 2014 season (after playing two years), the remaining two years of prorated bonus (1.625 x 2) still unaccounted for against the cap will count against the 2015 cap (if he's cut by June 1) or against the 2016 cap ( if he's cut June 2 or after).

     

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Sebastian Vollmer

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Here is how signing bonuses are treated:

    Payment:  The full amount is paid when the player signs.  Arrington gets all 6.5 of his signing bonus now.

    Salary cap accounting:  For salary cap purposes, the signing bonus amount is divided by the number of years in the contract (up to a maximum of 5), and the resulting amount is credited to the cap each year for the life of the contract or for five years, whichever is shorter.  So for Arrington, the 6.5 is divided by four and the resulting 1.625 is credited each year to the cap for the four years of the contract.

    If a player is cut: Any part of the signing bonus that has not yet been accounted for against the cap is "accelerated" and counts against the cap for the upcoming season (if the player is cut on or before June 1) or for the season afterwards (if the player is cut on or after June 2). If Arrington is cut after the 2014 season (after playing two years), the remaining two years of prorated bonus (1.625 x 2) still unaccounted for against the cap will count against the 2015 cap (if he's cut by June 1) or against the 2016 cap ( if he's cut June 2 or after).

     



    Ha so we were all wrong. I spread it out too much if he is cut early but correctly if he is cut later, but he can be cut in a way that spreads it out a bit. Thanks for the info.

     

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