Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from hardright. Show hardright's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    We could play this game all season long.

    Every team makes mistakes and passes on players that, in hindsight, EVERYONE should have drafted--that's how guys like Brady and Terrell Davis last until the sixth round, and how guys like John Randle (that's Hall-of-Famer John Randle to you) go undrafted.

    But just to contribute, I'll throw out this one, which has to be BB's biggest "mistake" during his entire decade-plus in New England: trading up to the 21st spot in the first round of the 2002 draft, with Ed Reed still on the board, and drafting Daniel Graham.

    Passing on Reed becomes even more puzzling when you consider that just a year later BB ended up with TWO new starting safeties after dealing away Tebucky Jones and cutting Lawyer Milloy. Fortunately, one of those new safeties was Rodney Harrison, whom San Diego thought was all done. Of course, having Harrison/Reed at safety would have made an already very good defense even more amazing, yes?

    Also, having Reed around would have helped a lot when the Colts and Giants were driving for GW touchdowns in the 2006 and 2007 post-seasons.

    Of course, because 198 selections went by before Tom Brady came off the board, the Pats ended up winning three Super Bowls, with the potential for more.

    So yeah, every team makes mistakes, and they make them almost every year.


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from CablesWyndBairn. Show CablesWyndBairn's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I think the draft, undrafted free agents and street free agents are all part of team building, and for every guy supposedly passed up there is another guy who emerged from nowhere. 

    I have yet to do an analysis of team rosters, but I'd guess that all teams have a core of players they get in the early rounds and the rest of the roster is rounded out with guys from all over the map.  To say that botched drafts can affect the on field product is true, but I think it ignores the fact that good personnel types can find guys in lots of places.  With the Pats, the sheer volume of picks and BB's ability to replenish his draft board yearly means that they have more ammo than most to take chances and not have it doom the team to mediocrity or worse.   
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Posts from McCheaters are hidden
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from HarryBallz. Show HarryBallz's posts

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    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]I think the draft, undrafted free agents and street free agents are all part of team building, and for every guy supposedly passed up there is another guy who emerged from nowhere.  I have yet to do an analysis of team rosters, but I'd guess that all teams have a core of players they get in the early rounds and the rest of the roster is rounded out with guys from all over the map.  To say that botched drafts can affect the on field product is true, but I think it ignores the fact that good personnel types can find guys in lots of places.  With the Pats, the sheer volume of picks and BB's ability to replenish his draft board yearly means that they have more ammo than most to take chances and not have it doom the team to mediocrity or worse.   
    Posted by CablesWyndBairn[/QUOTE]

    Haynesworth, Carter, Ellis etc will all play significant roles this year.  They are short term rentals but if managed properly can help you win a title.  Look at what they did in 2001 with core talented guys and smart pick ups.   What did Samuel do the the Beagles?  How about trading Seymour?  Did that really change anything here or in OAK?   But, think that Branch might have been the difference maker for them in 2007 vs the Colts?  Have to think he would have.  

    I will say though that BB has failed to adjust the schemes to fit the talent that he had available.  

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    1. Samuel wanted big money and a long term (5 years) contract.  I do believe that the Pats brass obviously missed on Wheatley and Wilhite, but it's hard to argue that Bodden and McCourty won't be a good tandem. Butler and Arrington on nickel and dime packages.

    2. Clay Mathews. It all depends on what type of defense you run (see Aaron Kampman). If you put a player in a defense that he is not used to or built for then he could easily struggle. That said, Mathews is obviously a good pass rusher and decent against the run, so-so in coverage.

    3. Chad Jackson. People always remember "bust", but they forget that Jackson had a great combine and was probably on alot of teams radars. The draft-do-over is just plain silly. It's like saying I really should've dated Jessica Alba back when she was an ugly duckling in high school. Hindsight is 20/20. 

    4. Maroney. Average player from an average pick. Anyone that thought he was going to be Walter Payton revisted is clearly a moron. He was an average player that had average seasons. The only argument I might offer is that we should have taken Barber, but he ain't exactly tearing up the league. I might argue that the Pats never should have wasted a pick that high on a running back. The flip side is that we got UDFA Green-Ellis and he rushed for over 1000 yrds when everyone either trades up to get a RB (Saints) or breaks the bank to sign overused aging RBs (Tomlinson).

    For me it boils down to replacing two players from a dynasty team: Ty Law (we may have him if McCourty continues to progress) and Willie Mac (good DE/OLBs are hard to find and generally get scooped up pretty quick in the draft). Those are the two players (Brady excluded) that really showed up in the playoffs.

    Every team has hits and misses in the draft (Vollmer, Gronk, Hernandez, Mayo Wilfork, and McCourty being hits). It's easier to miss when your team drafts low in the round. It is also usually extremely difficult to replace players from a dynasty team and all dynasties have had to endure a large amount of rebuilding (90s Cowboys). We had an aging offensive line, key defensive players retiring, and yet to some degree that Pats are still contenders. Hard to do in the cap era and in a league that tries very hard to maintain competitive balance.

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Hahah not even sure but TrueChamp caught someone and I just wanted to vent because Bodden is anything but a bust.
    Posted by apdynasty23[/QUOTE]

    "   1.) Decision Not to Sign Asante Samuel: To replace Samuel, the Patriots eventually spent free agent dollars on CBs Deltha O'Neal,and Leigh Bodden. They also spent two second round draft choices on Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler. The failure of these players led to the Patriots using their #1 draft choice in 2010 on CB Devin McCourty. "

       From the OP, Texas Pat using his typical spin to insinuate that Leigh Bodden is a failure. He probably thinks he is a failure because Bodden was injured. Its in the same line of thinking as when Tex said Brady's knee injury was due to his lack of focus, and that his lack of focus was due to his inability to get over the 07 SB.

    You can't make this stuff up!




     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    That Pioli was way overrated.

    2) Very good LB or Potential all time TE?  I'll take the TE. 

    I don't give any credit to Pro Bowl appearances, hell Mary has 2 which goes to show what a joke it is.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from lightningbrain. Show lightningbrain's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Great personnel moves by the Pats:

    Brady (drafting him and staying with him when Bledsoe came back)
    Stephen Neal
    Rodney Harrison
    Corey Dillon
    Randy Moss (acquiring him and cutting him)
    Wes Welker, Danny Woodhead, Aaron Hernandez, Albert Haynesworth (ok, I'm projecting this one)

    Anyway, I can see why a fan would want to make a thread to discuss regrettable moves the team has made.  It would be too lengthy to discuss the great ones.
    Troy Brown to cornerback!
    Since someone mentioned that Kraft isn't being discussed too much, I'll add that BB was a great personnel move by Kraft.
    Sorry, I'm getting carried away, there are simply too many!
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Samuel was on the 2007 team that lost the superbowl.  If he had caught the easy interception, the superbowl was won.

    RESPONSE: I don't recall it being an "easy interception". The ball he had a shot at was thrown very high...and it would have been an outstanding play, had he made it.

      Take a look at this organization as a whole.  Some great players have come through the doors.  Wilfork, Mayo, Harrison, etc.  have all been great.  If an organization only makes 5 mistakes in ten years, they are doing well.  Every organization has made decisions that have cost them in the long run.  The draft is a crapshoot.

    RESPONSE: I've already acknowledhed this, above. Again, the purpose of this thread was not to bash BB and the Pats, but to generate some good football talk. Every team makes mistakes. But, the team that makes the fewest, and less eggregious ones, is usually contending for the SB. 

    Good scouting can help but no one can predict how a player is going to pan out. Why does a 4th rounder like Samuel become an all start and many that were drafted ahead of him are out of football.  The Patriots are a great organization and have done well in the last ten years.  We are lucky to have a great organization that can gives us the hope of a Superbowl every season.

    RESPONSE: Agreed.
    Posted by msteven[/QUOTE]
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : "   1.) Decision Not to Sign Asante Samuel: To replace Samuel, the Patriots eventually spent free agent dollars on CBs Deltha O'Neal,and Leigh Bodden. They also spent two second round draft choices on Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler.  The failure of these players led to the Patriots using their #1 draft choice in 2010 on CB Devin McCourty. "    From the OP, Texas Pat using his typical spin to insinuate that Leigh Bodden is a failure. He probably thinks he is a failure because Bodden was injured. Its in the same line of thinking as when Tex said Brady's knee injury was due to his lack of focus, and that his lack of focus was due to his inability to get over the 07 SB. You can't make this stuff up!
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

         Will you and Rusty please stop gulping down the koolaid?

         Please enlighten us on how the Leigh Bodden signing was a success? He had a decent year in his first year with the Patriots, when hhe played on a one year deal. Though he led the Pats with 5 picks that year...but 3 came in one game, against rookie QB, Mark Sanchez.

         Thereafter, the Patriots, desperate for CB help, signed Bodden to a 4 year, $22mil. extension, with $10mil. guaranteed...and front loaded, so that he'd receive $14mil. of the $22mil. in the first two years. So, Bodden earned $7mil. in 2010, despite not playing. He's set to earn another $7mil. this year. That's a lot of money for a mediocre CB who never made the pro-bowl...don't you think? This was money that could have been used towards signing Asante Samuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Bodden 

         Sorry...but when judging whether a high dollar free agent signing was worth the money, you must look at the players' production. What has Bodden produced since signing his lucrative extension? Nothing (he missed all of last season with a shoulder injury). Call it bad luck, or whatever you like. But, it is what it is. 
         
     
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  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I don't see not signing Samuel as a mistake.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from auchhhhhhhhhhh. Show auchhhhhhhhhhh's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    This time Texas  missed badly
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Paul_K. Show Paul_K's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    1,2,3,4,5:  Mostly no way!

    1.  Re-signing Asante Samuel has questions.  He would have cost the team a fortune that was better spent on a cheap Randy Moss.  This team never re-signs anyone who isn't absolutely critical, usually a quarterback, a nose tackle or an offensive lineman.  For everyone else, the rest of the NFL shall always outbid any 16-0 team.  That's the nature of the business.

    2.  Woulda shoulda.  Just because BB might have passed on Gronk (and he's going to be a matchup nightmare this year starting with Miami) doesn't mean he'd pick Clay Matthews.  That's wishful.  The rest of the NFL wants a do-over on both Gronk and Hernandez.  No haunt, just see if Matthews can cover Gronk.

    3.  Again, woulda shoulda.  What if BB had taken the #85 pick instead of #84?  Tate at #83 was a genuine risk at #83 because of his rebuilt ACL, but he did automatically make the rookie PUP list like Cannon will this year.  Smart move, no dice.

    4. 

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from Davedsone. Show Davedsone's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Asante Samuel was a gambler who wanted to shine up his record with INT's at the cost of good coverage.  Watch his Superbowl footage and it's evident.  He left his man to gamble.  That's why he left.  And he certainly didn't turn the Eagles around, they remained about the same.  Just 60 million poorer.  I think what we got instead of Matthews is just fine.  Jackson was a total waste, but who remembers Moroney's first year, when Dillon was still here?  He ran JUST LIKE HIM.  Stiffarming people, running people over, the works.  He must have taken dancing lessons after that season, but he was crazy good then.  Sorry, you aren't going to throw strikes every time.  The team did pretty good, I think.  McCheaters forgets the Jests bad picks in the same span, or chooses to not discuss them.  Heck, their missed COACHING choices are about the size of this list.
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Salcon. Show Salcon's posts

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    Bodden also does something that Samuel won't- TACKLE!
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

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    In Response to Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]    
    TP... it is so easy to "Monday Morning Quarterback" these draft choices.  Do you think in the period leading up to these respective draft events BB and the Pats had information, plus their own opinions, these moves would have worked?  There is no guarantee that even a "stud" player being drafted will result in their becoming a star player.  I am certain the Pats aren't the only team to have this happen.  A Tom Brady coming along is a rarity.  Unless you personally know of something the Pats should have known about these drafted players, maybe you should head up to Foxboro and give them a piece of your mind!  You certainly make it look like they should have known all these moves would have been a bust.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      Will you and Rusty please stop gulping down the koolaid?      Please enlighten us on how the Leigh Bodden signing was a success? He had a decent year in his first year with the Patriots, when hhe played on a one year deal. Though he led the Pats with 5 picks that year...but 3 came in one game, against rookie QB, Mark Sanchez.      Thereafter, the Patriots, desperate for CB help, signed Bodden to a 4 year, $22mil. extension, with $10mil. guaranteed...and front loaded, so that he'd receive $14mil. of the $22mil. in the first two years. So, Bodden earned $7mil. in 2010, despite not playing. He's set to earn another $7mil. this year. That's a lot of money for a mediocre CB who never made the pro-bowl...don't you think? This was money that could have been used towards signing Asante Samuel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Bodden        Sorry...but when judging whether a high dollar free agent signing was worth the money, you must look at the players' production. What has Bodden produced since signing his lucrative extension? Nothing (he missed all of last season with a shoulder injury). Call it bad luck, or whatever you like. But, it is what it is.       
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Ask Oakland if Namde was a "failure" because he didn't catch a lot of  interceptions? If that is your criteria for what makes a good corner then you are further away from reality then I originally suspected.

    Oh wait, maybe making "the pro bowl" is what elevates a player to above mediocrity in your opinion.

    Bodden is a physical cb who is one of the few remaining whom can wrap up and tackle. He plays tight coverage and was a diamond in the rough for a 09 pats team with a depleted secondary.

    Guys get injured in the most physical sport in the world all the time. It doesn't mean they are failures and it doesn't mean they weren't focused as you say Brady wasn't in 08! lol

    Also 22 million(Bodden) is not 60 million(asante) I'm glad you weren't making personnel decisions for our team. You would have crippled us for years with your asante deal.

    BTW that ball went right through asante's hands as he jumped a foot and a half  off the ground. Pretty sure he had a vertical leap of over 18 inches at the combine so yes I say Samuel that choker should have caught eli's under pressure duck ball, especially with the Superbowl and undefeated season on the line.

    As mentioned above by several other posters, you can name things that went wrong for every team in the league but the fact remains that this team was rebuilding for the 2 years after Brady was hurt and still went 24-8.

    Enough with your "koolaid" b.s it's something your arch enemy underdog would say........you two sure have a lot in common!




     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from danemcmenamin. Show danemcmenamin's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Can't believe you guys are trying to justify the Maroney pick it was gawd awful. What a waste of a first rounder it does not matter how other players did like Reggie Bush or anyone else. It was such a dodgy pick so so unBelichick. He ran as part of a 2 back set in college with Marion Barber almost like a smash and dash combo. He was drafted to replace Corey Dillon even though since I assume high school he hasn't been a feature back. Why do you think since then we've done running back by commitee. That said it could have happened to anyone running backs in the first round are such a risk. The players we passed on though they realy break my heart some real quality talent even the running backs taken after. I don't know what BB was thinking that year taking that kind of player in the first round, taking a running back with a QB like Brady at the helm is crazy! Why do ever need to take a running back in the first round with him around. It makes no sense to me. In my opinion he's the definition of a bust and before anyone brings up his good games can I just remind everyone that even Ryan Leaf had 1 or 2 good games it does not let you avoid a bust status. 
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

     I don't see not signing Samuel as a mistake.


    Babe! I agree with you!  lol
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from danemcmenamin. Show danemcmenamin's posts

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    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE] I don't see not signing Samuel as a mistake. Babe! I agree with you!  lol
    Posted by Philskiw1[/QUOTE]

    Absolutely, what an ungrateful player the Patriots turned him from a nobody 4th rounder into one of the highest paid CBs in the league. He's largely a ball hawk who comes up with the interception at key times therefore making himself look alot better i.e. playoffs. 
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Interesting to see most Pats fans heee (minus 1) all pretty much say the same thing word for word. Maybe if McDaniels ran Maroney other than 6 total times in SB42, until Maroney's tongue was dragging, we wouldn't be so concered with pretending he was a "haunting" decision. What McDaniels did in the 2007 AFC Title game is what he needed to do in the SB and never did.   Also, if BB secures Moss, Welker and then Gaffney into the mix, for 2007, I fail to see how that cost that SB based on the development of a Chad Jackson. It makes no sense. And I don't recall anyone thinking Cassel was a lock to lead NE to a SB in 2008, either.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

    And how were the Patriots going to get any push when the Giants clearly had a superior defensive line in that game?  I don't see how the run blocking would have been any more successful than the pass blocking was.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Asante Samuel was a gambler who wanted to shine up his record with INT's at the cost of good coverage.  Watch his Superbowl footage and it's evident.  He left his man to gamble.  That's why he left.  And he certainly didn't turn the Eagles around, they remained about the same.  Just 60 million poorer.  I think what we got instead of Matthews is just fine.  Jackson was a total waste, but who remembers Moroney's first year, when Dillon was still here?  He ran JUST LIKE HIM.  Stiffarming people, running people over, the works.  He must have taken dancing lessons after that season, but he was crazy good then.  Sorry, you aren't going to throw strikes every time.  The team did pretty good, I think.  McCheaters forgets the Jests bad picks in the same span, or chooses to not discuss them.  Heck, their missed COACHING choices are about the size of this list.
    Posted by Davedsone[/QUOTE]

    He (Maroney) broke his shoulder trying to run over somebody and was never the same since. That is when he started dancing.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from FishTaco64. Show FishTaco64's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    One personnel erroe that should haunt them is thinking that Reche Caldwell was an adequate #1 target in the passing game. If BB had traded for Welker one year earlier, there would be another Lombardi in the case right now.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from LonelyGirl. Show LonelyGirl's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Is the biggest mistake haunting Pats fans is the writing of TexPat?
     

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