Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

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    Anyone proclaiming Samuel is better than McCourty is blind.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


         What?? McCourty need several more Pro-Bowl caliber seasons before you can mention him in the same sentence with Samuel. 
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      Grasping at straws...LOL!!!
    Posted by TexasPat3



    You are, but we forgive you.

    You must have joined the underdog schoool of football analysis with this pro-bowl fetish TP.
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Their contracts weren't off by light years. If you take away all of Samuel's funny money, he was making less than the advertised $9.5 (or whatever) million. He only makes that if the team doesn't restructure his deal. And $9.5 million, these days, is a rock solid rate for a very good corner (sadly). The franchise value is $14 million for this season. That is enormous. It will likely come down next season, but will still be higher than what Samuel makes, and not as high as what Law would be making right now, in his prime. 
    Posted by zbellino

    Fair enough, but at the time the Eagles made Samuel the highest paid CB in the league and the fact that the market rate for CB increased a ton benefits a bit from hindsight.  Also a lot of these arguments ignore the fact that paying out that type of money would have salary cap implications.  With Brady signing an extension there was not a lot of room for maneuvering.  Who would you have jettisoned to make room for Asante?

     
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    Also comparing the Bodden and Samuel deals is a bit of a non sequitor.  We did not let go of Asante so we could sign Bodden even if the Bodden deal turned out poorly.
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : You are, but we forgive you. You must have joined the underdog schoool of football analysis with this pro-bowl fetish TP.
    Posted by BabeParilli


         The "underdog school of football anaylysis"....LOL!!!! 

         Hey Babe, is that school located on the same campus as the Peyton Passing Academy??
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : You said yourself that Samuel was a top five guy earlier in this thread, so wouldn't that make you mistaken as well? Furthermore, give TP some credit dude. Bashing a guy on the way out the door, and talking about hindisght is NOT what happened here.  In this thread he was questioning Bodden earlier. That is not hindsight ... it's called seeing things for how they are. Then having something in line with your insights come true.  That is how football analysis works.  Samuel was never top five IMO. But top ten really ... and the bottom half for sure of the bottom five. He has holes in his game. However, just as I said after he went elsewhere, his salary would be a 'going rate' in a few years because of the price-premium on good corners and the proliferation of spread offenses and consquential proliferation of nickel-dime defenses.  And $60 million may be the 'total' value, but the guaranteed value is much, much less. $20 million guaranteed with the last two season's salaries eating up $18million. Add another 4.5 million in incentives tied to those two seasons, and you end up with a contract that was more like 4 years at $8.45 million. The "Franchise Tag" value on a corner in 2007, his contract season, was $7.79 million. In 2011 it is a whopping  $14 million. If he was a top-five corner coming into 2011 as you said, he was woefully underpaid, considering they top five average  a 70% increase over his average salary in that period.  He may have shot his mouth off in Philly, but the guy has delivered on the field there, and the team's ownership should be questioned (though not in the media by players). He was wrong to say something, but right in his assessment that the team did treat the offseason like a 'fantasy football' draft. They didn't need  Asomugha, and needed offensive lineman. They could have had two quality OL players, and Asomugha looks like a wierdly placed luxury at this point.  Meanwhile he lead the NFL in interceptions 2009 and 2010. He has made the pro-bowl in 2008-9 & 10. An at a salary that is close to half what top five corners are making now.  Bodden, on the other hand, has made $12 million in the new contract, $4.3 in year one salary, $6 in guaranteed bonuses, and just under half of his $3.9 million for this season. He started zero games. He made zero interceptions. And he is now out the door. I will  admit I thought they should have resigned him. But the worst case scenario occured. His resigning (in admitted hindsight ) was a big mistake.  I won't say whether he or Bodden 'haunt' NE, because it's a long discussion that involves basically restructuring all the roster moves in that time around signing him, which would radically change the picture. But it's evident that Samuel is A.) a better player than anyone currently playing corner for NE, and B.) a bargain compared to Bodden's 4 year deal. So, 1:1, it's not even conversation. Since Bodden was re-upped Philly's paid Samuel (pro-rated so far this season as well) in that 1.5 seasons about the same at a rough $12 million.  I think it's too hard to reconstruct what the rest of the roster would look like, but from a performance vs financials standpoint ...  the Samuel deal looks sparkling compared to the Bodden deal.  And that is really a shame. 
    Posted by zbellino



    Posts: 6553
    First: 12/29/2008
    Last: 10/28/2011
         If a team wants to seriously contend every year for a championship, it's imperative that the team avoid personnel mistakes...which can damage or destroy SB dreams.

         From what we've seen of the 2011 Patriots, questions linger about the ability of their defense to pressure the opposing passer, pass coverage, and at WR. Here are five(5) mistakes which have haunted the Patriots over the past several years:  

         1.) Decision Not to Sign Asante Samuel: To replace Samuel, the Patriots eventually spent free agent dollars on CBs Deltha O'Neal,and Leigh Bodden. They also spent two second round draft choices on Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler. The failure of these players led to the Patriots using their #1 draft choice in 2010 on CB Devin McCourty.
         In McCourty, BB appears to have finally found Samuel's replacement. But, the cost to replace Samuel was free agent dollars...which could have been allocated to sign Samuel, two second round draft choices, and one first rounder

          2.) Clay Matthews:
    The inability to rush the opposing passer has been a problem ever since Willie McGinest and Mike Vrabel aged. The Pats have done little in the draft to solve this problem...spending a 3rd round draft choice in 2008 on the worthless Shaun Crable, and a second rounder on DE/OLB Jermaine Cunningham. 
         In the 2009 draft, BB passed on the opportunity to select OLB Clay Mathews with his 26th overall pick, opting instead to trade down with the Green Bay Packers, for the rather steep price of the 41st pick overall, and two third rounders. These picks netted them CB Darius Butler, WR Brandon Tate, and, eventually, promising TE, Rob Gronkowski. With each passing day, Butler and Tate look like busts. Gronk has the potential to become a pro-bowl caliber TE. 
         As a result of this draft trade, the Pats have spent millions in free agency to bring in several veterans, who they hope can generate a pass rush. Meanwhile, the Packers won the SB last year, as Matthews earned pro-bowl honors. But, to be fair, it must be pointed out that Matthews has benefited from playing with one of the better secondaries in the game, the past two years;

         3.) Passing on WR Mike Wallace: One of the things that led to that embarrassing playoff loss to the Jets was that the Patriots lacked a deep threat at WR. The Pats could have solved this problem in the third round of the 2009 draft, if only they had selected Mike Wallace over WR Brandon Tate. Tate was chosen with the 83rd overall selection...and Pittsburgh took Wallace at #84. Though the jury is still out on Tate, it's becoming increasingly clear that he's the second coming of Bethel Johnson...while Wallace has evolved into one of the most feared deep threats in the game.

         4.) Chad Jackson: Prior to the Tate mistake discussed above, there was the trade up in the 2006 draft, to acquire WR Chad Jackson. The Pats parted with the 52nd and 75th picks that season to move up to #36, and land this monumental bust. 
         Curiously enough, the Jackson deal was also made with the Packers, who used the 52nd overall selection to take WR Greg Jennings...who has averaged 80 receptions for around 1200 yards (16 yards per catch), over the past three seasons. This, along with the failure to draft Wallace, has left the Patriots with a weakness at WR, heading into this season.

          5.) Laurence Maroney: Though Maroney had his moments with the Pats, he never evolved into the stud RB that the Pats hoped they acquired with the 21st overall pick in the 2006 draft. His short-comings led to the acquisition of failed free agent Fred Taylor, and the Pats spending second and third round choices on RBs last April. 

          6.) Brandon Meriweather: Former first round pick from the 2007 draft was released by the Pats after four inconsistent years of play with the team. Like Maroney above, he wasn't a total disaster...but he never developed into the Ed Reed type of FS that the Patriots hoped he would become. The fact that the Patriots could not find a taker for him in a trade, yet still chose to release him...speaks volumes.  
     





    Z, this is the original topic, and this is what Pat and I went back and forth on. Read his post and tell me that his crystal clear hindsight has nothing to do with the conversation.

    He is saying BB(who makes personnel decisions for the Patriots) is haunted by the decision to not sign Samuel(which would have made him the highest paid CB in the league at the time) If you agree then I say you are wrong as well.

     The rest of the haunting personnel decisions Belichick made are all draft picks, (in Texas Pats eyes) so yes I think he is being completely over the top.

    Are you trying to say that Asante was not made the highest paid cb in the league? Are you trying to say BB should have signed Asante to whatever his demands were? I don't understand your view point here.
     
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    Posted by TexasPat3



    I guess after Bodden gets released you assumed you had a point, thus taking me off ignore? I congratulate you for over coming your fears.

    You claimed Bodden was a, "FAILURE" after the 09 season. I say he was a good CB in 09 and most realistic people would agree.

    You say BB should have given into Asante's demands and made him the highest paid cb in the league. You said the decision to not sign Samuel, "Haunts" the Patriots. I say your a ninny.

    You list a bunch of people BB should have drafted and say the decisions "haunt" him. I say only with hindsight could anybody possibly know that.

    You also said Tom Brady's knee injury was his own fault, you said you could tell by watching him(in his 7 minutes of action) that he was not focused LMAO. Go ahead and call me a liar.   I can dig up old threads too.

     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Fair enough, but at the time the Eagles made Samuel the highest paid CB in the league and the fact that the market rate for CB increased a ton benefits a bit from hindsight.  Also a lot of these arguments ignore the fact that paying out that type of money would have salary cap implications.  With Brady signing an extension there was not a lot of room for maneuvering.  Who would you have jettisoned to make room for Asante?
    Posted by 423206852231dc13f5b2e36577a3bcfa


    He was not the highest paid at the time. That would have been Nate Clements, and then Nnamdi Asomugha at the time. And by the next season (2009), I don't think he was even in the top five. 

    Right. I said that you would have to basically reconstruct the team, and that saying any move of that size 'haunts' NE would involve that long conversation. None of us really know everything about how a team can structure within the cap, because the rules aren't transparent and available to fans (only the sketches). 

    Again, I never said the thing you are saying. 

    And really, you should review what non-sequitur means, because it isn't does logically follow that all of the players at corner could be compared to Samuel contract for contract on some level. 

    IF DMC improves from his terrible start this season and picks another bunch of passes makes a few more pro-bowls on his rookie deal ... people will jump at the chance to 'compare' the contracts.

     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : TexasPat3 Posts: 6553 First: 12/29/2008 Last: 10/28/2011 f02988d056c92be32d684bfa082c7d7d      If a team wants to seriously contend every year for a championship, it's imperative that the team avoid personnel mistakes...which can damage or destroy SB dreams.      From what we've seen of the 2011 Patriots, questions linger about the ability of their defense to pressure the opposing passer, pass coverage, and at WR. Here are five(5) mistakes which have haunted the Patriots over the past several years:        1.) Decision Not to Sign Asante Samuel: To replace Samuel, the Patriots eventually spent free agent dollars on CBs Deltha O'Neal,and Leigh Bodden. They also spent two second round draft choices on Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler. The failure of these players led to the Patriots using their #1 draft choice in 2010 on CB Devin McCourty.      In McCourty, BB appears to have finally found Samuel's replacement. But, the cost to replace Samuel was free agent dollars...which could have been allocated to sign Samuel, two second round draft choices, and one first rounder .        2.) Clay Matthews: The inability to rush the opposing passer has been a problem ever since Willie McGinest and Mike Vrabel aged. The Pats have done little in the draft to solve this problem...spending a 3rd round draft choice in 2008 on the worthless Shaun Crable, and a second rounder on DE/OLB Jermaine Cunningham.       In the 2009 draft, BB passed on the opportunity to select OLB Clay Mathews with his 26th overall pick, opting instead to trade down with the Green Bay Packers, for the rather steep price of the 41st pick overall, and two third rounders. These picks netted them CB Darius Butler, WR Brandon Tate, and, eventually, promising TE, Rob Gronkowski. With each passing day, Butler and Tate look like busts. Gronk has the potential to become a pro-bowl caliber TE.       As a result of this draft trade, the Pats have spent millions in free agency to bring in several veterans, who they hope can generate a pass rush. Meanwhile, the Packers won the SB last year, as Matthews earned pro-bowl honors. But, to be fair, it must be pointed out that Matthews has benefited from playing with one of the better secondaries in the game, the past two years;       3.) Passing on WR Mike Wallace:  One of the things that led to that embarrassing playoff loss to the Jets was that the Patriots lacked a deep threat at WR. The Pats could have solved this problem in the third round of the 2009 draft, if only they had selected Mike Wallace over WR Brandon Tate. Tate was chosen with the 83rd overall selection...and Pittsburgh took Wallace at #84. Though the jury is still out on Tate, it's becoming increasingly clear that he's the second coming of Bethel Johnson...while Wallace has evolved into one of the most feared deep threats in the game.      4.) Chad Jackson: Prior to the Tate mistake discussed above, there was the trade up in the 2006 draft, to acquire WR Chad Jackson. The Pats parted with the 52nd and 75th picks that season to move up to #36, and land this monumental bust.       Curiously enough, the Jackson deal was also made with the Packers, who used the 52nd overall selection to take WR Greg Jennings...who has averaged 80 receptions for around 1200 yards (16 yards per catch), over the past three seasons. This, along with the failure to draft Wallace, has left the Patriots with a weakness at WR, heading into this season.        5.) Laurence Maroney: Though Maroney had his moments with the Pats, he never evolved into the stud RB that the Pats hoped they acquired with the 21st overall pick in the 2006 draft. His short-comings led to the acquisition of failed free agent Fred Taylor, and the Pats spending second and third round choices on RBs last April.         6.) Brandon Meriweather: Former first round pick from the 2007 draft was released by the Pats after four inconsistent years of play with the team. Like Maroney above, he wasn't a total disaster...but he never developed into the Ed Reed type of FS that the Patriots hoped he would become. The fact that the Patriots could not find a taker for him in a trade, yet still chose to release him...speaks volumes.     Z, this is the original topic, and this is what Pat and I went back and forth on. Read his post and tell me that his crystal clear hindsight has nothing to do with the conversation. He is saying BB(who makes personnel decisions for the Patriots) is haunted by the decision to not sign Samuel(which would have made him the highest paid CB in the league at the time) If you agree then I say you are wrong as well.  The rest of the haunting personnel decisions Belichick made are all draft picks, (in Texas Pats eyes) so yes I think he is being completely over the top. Are you trying to say that Asante was not made the highest paid cb in the league? Are you trying to say BB should have signed Asante to whatever his demands were? I don't understand your view point here.
    Posted by TrueChamp



    He wasn't the highest paid, and has never been the highest paid. In 2008 there were a few CBs making more than he was making. 

    Haunt is a strong word. To say it 'haunts' NE you would have to restructure the moves (all of them) that happened after that. 

    As far as whether NE has missed a good corner over that time ... you would have to be bat-sh!t crazy to not see that. The pass defense has been abyssmal at times and mediocre at others the last few seasons. 
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : I guess after Bodden gets released you assumed you had a point, thus taking me off ignore? I congratulate you for over coming your fears.
     
    RESPONSE: Bodden getting released completely vindicates my position, Glass Joe. Even you should be able to understand that. Fear had nothing to do with me putting you on ignore. I just realized that trying to have an intelligent discussion with someone like you was on parr with talking to a fence post.

    You claimed Bodden was a, "FAILURE" after the 09 season. I say he was a good CB in 09 and most realistic people would agree. You say BB should have given into Asante's demands and made him the highest paid cb in the league. You said the decision to not sign Samuel, "Haunts" the Patriots. I say your a ninny.
     
    RESPONSE: "A ninny????" LOL!!!

    You list a bunch of people BB should have drafted and say the decisions "haunt" him. I say only with hindsight could anybody possibly know that. You also said Tom Brady's knee injury was his own fault, you said you could tell by watching him(in his 7 minutes of action) that he was not focused LMAO. Go ahead and call me a liar.   I can dig up old threads too.

    RESPONSE: Dig away, Glass Joe. Just tap yourself on your glass jaw, and knock yourself out.  
    Posted by TrueChamp

     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : He wasn't the highest paid, and has never been the highest paid. In 2008 there were a few CBs making more than he was making.  Haunt is a strong word. To say it 'haunts' NE you would have to restructure the moves (all of them) that happened after that.  As far as whether NE has missed a good corner over that time ... you would have to be bat-sh!t crazy to not see that. The pass defense has been abyssmal at times and mediocre at others the last few seasons. 
    Posted by zbellino


    One thing has nothing to do with the other. I am not saying we didn't need a cb. Samuel was a good Cb for us. He fulfilled his contract and got more money elsewhere. He was not worth 56 million. BB felt he was not worth that type of money, the Eagles did and now they have attained 2 highly coveted players at the same position. Apparently they are starting to doubt his impact? Now he rips into the front office and causes a serious distraction.

    Z, would you agree with Texas Pats statement that Leigh Bodden is a failure? Keep in mind this statement was made in 2010 when he was put on injured reserve. I think his 09 performance was about B+. Which certainly does not make him a failure because he got injured, imo.

    Also I remember Samuel  being the highest paid cb at the time the Eagles signed him. Are you sure about this?


     
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    Not so sure you can say passing on any player is "haunting" brady was a 6th round ..  it's just the nature of the draft.  The bad personell decisions were Adalius Tomas That cornerback we got from the Raven maybe, he was great came here sucked The white LB from KC we got, he sucked too. Still for everyone there's 3 Moss, welker, roman phifer, rodney harrison, corey dillion, tedy brushi, troy brown UDFA etc...   We won 3 SB last decade, had an undefeated season, that was pretty awesome.  Lets be real if you a NE sports fan you shouldn't be complaing about a dam thing except how the woman in NE have attidutes and beer bellys.   Not that it stops me...
    Posted by Michael02127


    Dude, your last paragraph is hilarious! Thanks for the chukle.
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : One thing has nothing to do with the other. I am not saying we didn't need a cb. Samuel was a good Cb for us. He fulfilled his contract and got more money elsewhere. He was not worth 56 million. BB felt he was not worth that type of money, the Eagles did and now they have attained 2 highly coveted players at the same position. Apparently they are starting to doubt his impact? Now he rips into the front office and causes a serious distraction. Z, would you agree with Texas Pats statement that Leigh Bodden is a failure? Keep in mind this statement was made in 2010 when he was put on injured reserve. I think his 09 performance was about B+. Which certainly does not make him a failure because he got injured, imo. Also I remember Samuel  being the highest paid cb at the time the Eagles signed him. Are you sure about this?
    Posted by TrueChamp

    Yes, Leigh Bodden has been an abject failure. He was very good in 2009. I think B+ is about right, TC. 

    But the 're-signing' was one of the worst moves NE has made in that span. As of this moment, NE has spent just over $12 million on the guy the last two seasons, and once he clears waivers that will jump to $14 million. He was injured last season ... this season he flat out stinks. He was a one year wonder here. 

    If Asante isn't worth ~$9 million per, the way he has played, how can Bodden be worth ~$7 million per, not playing? 

    And I am man enough to admit that I thought it was smart to resign him. I was afraid that the same thing might happen as happened when they let Asante go ... that the rate he was asking for would be a bargain in a couple seasons. I was wrong in resigning Bodden, right about the bargain rate. 

    Do argue that the move blew up in their face? 

     
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    Also, TC ... total double take here. 

    How the he-c-k do NE missing a good corner and letting Asante walk have nothing to with each other?

    Rethink that sentence man. 

    You can argue a lot of things about his replacement, and a lot of things about 'value,' but really, the conversation about letting him go actually logically follows the conversation about how the CBs have performed since that time. 

    In short, it has everything to do with it. 
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : TexasPat3 Posts: 6553 First: 12/29/2008 Last: 10/28/2011 f02988d056c92be32d684bfa082c7d7d      If a team wants to seriously contend every year for a championship, it's imperative that the team avoid personnel mistakes...which can damage or destroy SB dreams.      From what we've seen of the 2011 Patriots, questions linger about the ability of their defense to pressure the opposing passer, pass coverage, and at WR. Here are five(5) mistakes which have haunted the Patriots over the past several years:        1.) Decision Not to Sign Asante Samuel: To replace Samuel, the Patriots eventually spent free agent dollars on CBs Deltha O'Neal,and Leigh Bodden. They also spent two second round draft choices on Terrence Wheatley and Darius Butler. The failure of these players led to the Patriots using their #1 draft choice in 2010 on CB Devin McCourty.      In McCourty, BB appears to have finally found Samuel's replacement. But, the cost to replace Samuel was free agent dollars...which could have been allocated to sign Samuel, two second round draft choices, and one first rounder .        2.) Clay Matthews: The inability to rush the opposing passer has been a problem ever since Willie McGinest and Mike Vrabel aged. The Pats have done little in the draft to solve this problem...spending a 3rd round draft choice in 2008 on the worthless Shaun Crable, and a second rounder on DE/OLB Jermaine Cunningham.       In the 2009 draft, BB passed on the opportunity to select OLB Clay Mathews with his 26th overall pick, opting instead to trade down with the Green Bay Packers, for the rather steep price of the 41st pick overall, and two third rounders. These picks netted them CB Darius Butler, WR Brandon Tate, and, eventually, promising TE, Rob Gronkowski. With each passing day, Butler and Tate look like busts. Gronk has the potential to become a pro-bowl caliber TE.       As a result of this draft trade, the Pats have spent millions in free agency to bring in several veterans, who they hope can generate a pass rush. Meanwhile, the Packers won the SB last year, as Matthews earned pro-bowl honors. But, to be fair, it must be pointed out that Matthews has benefited from playing with one of the better secondaries in the game, the past two years;       3.) Passing on WR Mike Wallace:  One of the things that led to that embarrassing playoff loss to the Jets was that the Patriots lacked a deep threat at WR. The Pats could have solved this problem in the third round of the 2009 draft, if only they had selected Mike Wallace over WR Brandon Tate. Tate was chosen with the 83rd overall selection...and Pittsburgh took Wallace at #84. Though the jury is still out on Tate, it's becoming increasingly clear that he's the second coming of Bethel Johnson...while Wallace has evolved into one of the most feared deep threats in the game.      4.) Chad Jackson: Prior to the Tate mistake discussed above, there was the trade up in the 2006 draft, to acquire WR Chad Jackson. The Pats parted with the 52nd and 75th picks that season to move up to #36, and land this monumental bust.       Curiously enough, the Jackson deal was also made with the Packers, who used the 52nd overall selection to take WR Greg Jennings...who has averaged 80 receptions for around 1200 yards (16 yards per catch), over the past three seasons. This, along with the failure to draft Wallace, has left the Patriots with a weakness at WR, heading into this season.        5.) Laurence Maroney: Though Maroney had his moments with the Pats, he never evolved into the stud RB that the Pats hoped they acquired with the 21st overall pick in the 2006 draft. His short-comings led to the acquisition of failed free agent Fred Taylor, and the Pats spending second and third round choices on RBs last April.         6.) Brandon Meriweather: Former first round pick from the 2007 draft was released by the Pats after four inconsistent years of play with the team. Like Maroney above, he wasn't a total disaster...but he never developed into the Ed Reed type of FS that the Patriots hoped he would become. The fact that the Patriots could not find a taker for him in a trade, yet still chose to release him...speaks volumes.     Z, this is the original topic, and this is what Pat and I went back and forth on. Read his post and tell me that his crystal clear hindsight has nothing to do with the conversation. He is saying BB(who makes personnel decisions for the Patriots) is haunted (*NO, JOE...I said that the PATRIOTS were haunted by these decisions...not BB personally!)  by the decision to not sign Samuel(which would have made him the highest paid CB in the league at the time) If you agree then I say you are wrong as well. (*THIS SAYS IT ALL ABOUT YOU, JOE...LOL!!!)   The rest of the haunting personnel decisions Belichick made are all draft picks, (in Texas Pats eyes) so yes I think he is being completely over the top. Are you trying to say that Asante was not made the highest paid cb in the league? Are you trying to say BB should have signed Asante to whatever his demands were? I don't understand your view point here.
    Posted by TrueChamp


         Again, Joe, you show your ignorance. Have these moves "helped" the Patriots? Or have these moves "hurt", and have they "hurt" the team over a number of years? If the Pats' have been hurt by these moves over a number of years, isn't it fair to say that these moves "haunt"  the Patriots? Read the definition of haunt, Glass Joe: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/haunt

         Certainly, the team has suffered over a number of years in the secondary, for the lack of a pass-rusher, from the lack of a deep threat, from lack of depth at WR, from the failure to have an all-purpose RB who can close out games in the 4th quarter, and from lack of talent at the safety position. 

         It is you, Glass Joe, that implied from this that BB personally is haunted by these moves. He may in fact be. You'd have to ask him. 

         The above points were thoroughly discussed previously. But, mindless koolaiders, such as yourself, don't see a post like this as a vehicle to promote discussion. Instead, you see it as trollish, dire criticism of BB. No one is a bigger supporter of he, than me.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    @ Zbellino.....See, now your using your perfectly clear hindsight as well. You agree with me that Bodden was a B+ player but then say it was a failure to re-sign him? How does that work? If we had known the future and known he would separate his shoulder missing a full season I am positive we would not have re-signed him. You and I both though that was a good move at the time and we were correct, and still are.


    To your 2nd point, yes we needed a cb, but we were not going to break the Patriot way and give a guy more then he was worth. So yes of course we agree we needed a cb but not at the expense of breaking the bank. Bodden's performance was worth the 22 mill(14 I think guaranteed) Asante was not worth the 56(29 or whatever it was guaranteed)

    I can concede(and did so earlier in this thread) that BB should have a had a better plan to replace Samuel knowing he was a coveted player, much as I think he should have had a better plan to replace Branch back in 06. However that is still nitpicking. Not having Asante Samuel was not the reason we have not won a SB since he left, otherwise we would have won in 07.

    No haunting there.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    @ Zbellino.....See, now your using your perfectly clear hindsight as well. You agree with me that Bodden was a B+ player but then say it was a failure to re-sign him? How does that work? If we had known the future and known he would separate his shoulder missing a full season I am positive we would not have re-signed him. You and I both though that was a good move at the time and we were correct, and still are. To your 2nd point, yes we needed a cb, but we were not going to break the Patriot way and give a guy more then he was worth. So yes of course we agree we needed a cb but not at the expense of breaking the bank. Bodden's performance was worth the 22 mill(14 I think guaranteed) Asante was not worth the 56(29 or whatever it was guaranteed) I can concede(and did so earlier in this thread) that BB should have a had a better plan to replace Samuel knowing he was a coveted player, much as I think he should have had a better plan to replace Branch back in 06. However that is still nitpicking. Not having Asante Samuel was not the reason we have not won a SB since he left, otherwise we would have won in 07. No haunting there.
    Posted by TrueChamp


    Huh? No. We were wrong. It wasn't a good move. It was a bad move. 

    How the h-e-c-k is it a good move? It's a bad move when your guy doesn't work out. A good move is when it works out.

    And yes, he separated his shoulder LAST season. He has flat out stunk this season. 

    Repeat, he hada B+ season. One. They gambled on a one-year wonder. They lost. Bad move. 

    And how do you figure Bodden was worth $14 million. He played in five games, one as a starter, had zero picks, and was burned repeatedly.

    You would pay for that?

    And finally, no I do not now, nor did I then think the Eagles overpaid for Asante Samuel. They paid market price. 

    None of us can speak for BB but I tend to agree with Mike Reiss (so I'll borrow his language) that it is one move that BB would likely want back given what transpired after it. 

    I would add the Bodden move to that list as well.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    Not so sure you can say passing on any player is "haunting" brady was a 6th round ..  it's just the nature of the draft.  The bad personell decisions were Adalius Tomas That cornerback we got from the Raven maybe, he was great came here sucked The white LB from KC we got, he sucked too. Still for everyone there's 3 Moss, welker, roman phifer, rodney harrison, corey dillion, tedy brushi, troy brown UDFA etc...   We won 3 SB last decade, had an undefeated season, that was pretty awesome.  Lets be real if you a NE sports fan you shouldn't be complaing about a dam thing except how the woman in NE have attidutes and beer bellys.   Not that it stops me...
    Posted by Michael02127

    "Lets be real if you a NE sports fan you shouldn't be complaing about a dam thing except how the woman in NE have attidutes and beer bellys.   Not that it stops me...
    Posted by Michael02127

    "

    in my opinion you cant really call yourself a sports fan (with a brain that works anyway) and not be able to make a critique of your teams actions (favorable and unfavorable).
 
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    Again, Z caught in lies.  Please list these times he was "burned" repeatedly.  Twice in Buffalo, once against SD?  Name another. Name the TD he allowed. He shut down Davon Bess. Helped shut down Keller and Witten. I love how ZBellino continues to dance around here acting like he has true statments, ignoring McCourty's poor start and then continues, absolutely continues, to be flat out incorrect. "Flat out stunk"? If he stunk what was McCourty with missed tackles, constantly getting beaten, etc? You're such a homer and need the name on the jersey type pink hat fan. Hey Z, do you know who Stevan Ridley is yet?  Do you like it when our spread shotgun base scores 13 points at home against Dallas until a last second drive is needed? Still can't figure out why NE lost in Buffalo after BRady tossed 4 INTs, huh? Do you still think unions somehow are a great idea for millionaire athletes? LMAO
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing


         Rusty and All:

         Bodden has stunk this season..."He has allowed 12 receptions and a touchdown while being thrown at 22 times. He played in five games with one start and no interceptions this year, deflecting four passes."
    http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=2&cid=1122326&nid=5775686&fhn=1
     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    If Bodden is healthy we're not even having this conversation and this thread sinks back where it belongs, on the trash heap... the winningest team of the decade isn't "haunted" by anything.  Bodden when healthy is one of the better "big" corners in the league.

    Find me a better talent evaluator than Belichick, better yet find me a team that doesn't have injuries, post draft regret or free agent buyers remorse.  

    You all make great evaluators in hindsight; 2/3rds of you would have drafted Vernon Gholston if I remember correctly.  

    Get real...
     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    The NFL draft and decision making is a game of skill just like poker, you play with the cards dealt - position and cards off the board. Like wozzy says Gholtson? Who would have known the Jets? I do'nt know how much each NFL Team invests for scouting but I would think that paid College scouts that depend on thier recommendations and reports would be the gating entity for information fed back to the Team with bonafide results and recommendations, a background check etc. An NFL coach can not rely on personal friendships with College coaches for player recommendations. Eg: U of Florida and the few busts that came out of there recently.

    The better Intel you have the better your chances of victory, thats a basics in any business.
     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Huh? No. We were wrong. It wasn't a good move. It was a bad move.  How the h-e-c-k is it a good move? It's a bad move when your guy doesn't work out. A good move is when it works out. And yes, he separated his shoulder LAST  season. He has flat out stunk this season.  Repeat, he hada B+ season. One. They gambled on a one-year wonder. They lost. Bad move.  And how do you figure Bodden was worth $14 million. He played in five games, one as a starter, had zero picks, and was burned repeatedly. You would pay for that? And finally, no I do not now, nor did I then think the Eagles overpaid for Asante Samuel. They paid market price.  None of us can speak for BB but I tend to agree with Mike Reiss (so I'll borrow his language) that it is one move that BB would likely want back given what transpired after it.  I would add the Bodden move to that list as well.
    Posted by zbellino


    Again, all of this is hindsight. Bodden was not a gamble after one year. He was a 6 year vet who had a history of playing well against big wr's. He came in and proved himself a very good cb and we rewarded him with a contract.

    To say as Texas Pat did back in 2010 that he was a failure was him grasping at straws in an attempt to back up another one of his outrageous statements.

    I think you, Texas Pat AND Mike Reiss are all 100% wrong if you think BB and the Patriots are wishing they had paid Asante the 56 million to keep in N.E. I also think right now the Eagles are realizing what the Patriots did back in 2007. He wasn't worth the money.

    It was not then and it never will be, "The Patriot Way"


     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    If Bodden is healthy we're not even having this conversation and this thread sinks back where it belongs, on the trash heap...

    RESPONSE: This thread isn't about Leigh Bodden. But, since you insist on making it about him, let's examine the facts, shall we? Bodden is healthy. Bodden was vastly overrated, on the strength his solid, but no where near great first year with the Pats, in 2009. That year, he had 5 picks. But, three of them can in one game, against then greener than grass rookie, Mark Sanchez. On the basis of this one year, the Patriots rewarded him with a 4 year, $22mil. deal, of which $10mil. was guaranteed, and $14mil. was to be paid to him over the initial two years of the deal. But, once he got his money, what has he done? In 2010, he missed the entire season with a shoulder injury. In 2011, BB eventually decided to go with CBs McCourty, Dowling, and Arrington on the outside, and to use Bodden inside, covering the slot receiver. When Bodden didn't embrace his new role, he was released. Checking on his stats for 2011, he's been terrible:  Bodden...has allowed 12 receptions and a touchdown while being thrown at 22 times. He played in five games with one start and no interceptions this year, deflecting four passes."
    http://profootball.scout.com/a.z?s=127&p=9&c=2&cid=1122326&nid=5775686&fhn=1   

    the winningest team of the decade isn't "haunted" by anything.
     
    RESPONSE: Really? Last time I checked, the "winningest team of the decade" hasn't won a championship since 2004.

    Bodden when healthy is one of the better "big" corners in the league.
     
    RESPONSE: Where's your evidence to support this statement? Besides, this year, he supposedly was healthy:
         "Patriots RCB Leigh Bodden says his surgically repaired shoulder is 100 percent healthy.
         "Yeah, physically, I’m firing on all cylinders. I can’t wait to get out there," Bodden said. Bodden will turn 30 this September, and saw his potential replacement in Ras-I Dowling drafted last month. However, he should still start opposite Devin McCourty this season. May 29 - 8:58 AM
     http://www.rotoworld.com/stats/nfl/2614/leigh-bodden


    Find me a better talent evaluator than Belichick, better yet find me a team that doesn't have injuries, post draft regret or free agent buyers remorse.
     
    RESPONSE: BB is a good evaluator of talent...and he, not I, made the decision to release Bodden. If Bodden is, as you claim, "one of the better "big" corners in the league", why did a great evaluator of talent like BB first demote him, and cut him?: 
         "The Patriots have "demoted" Leigh Bodden to nickel back, though he still played 66-of-77 snaps in Monday night's opener.
    Rookie Ras-I Dowling is now the first-team right cornerback. The Pats were in their nickel package for virtually the entire game, so Bodden spent the night mostly covering Davone Bess in the slot. Dowling held up well on the outside. Bodden was at least partially to blame for Bess' 92 yards on five catches. Sep 14 - 1:53 PM
    http://www.rotoworld.com/stats/nfl/2614/leigh-bodden


    You all make great evaluations in hindsight

    RESPONSE: This thread is based on facts, not hindsight. The rare mistakes that BB has made are focused upon. Why do koolaiders such as yourself get so worked up when anyone dares to bring up for discussion obvious personnel mistakes made?

    2/3 of you would have drafted Vernon Gholston if I remember correctly. Get real...

    RESPONSE: What difference does it make what some fans might have thought, or done? It's what BB does that counts. Many here have  criticized the Jets for taking Gholston. Those criticisms are based on fact. All this whining about "hindsight" is ridiculous. GMs are paid top dollar not to follow the consensus of fans, Mel Kiper, or the ESPN talking heads. They're paid to form their own opinions, and to get it right. If they don't, their decisions are fair game for criticism.   
    Posted by wozzy
     
  • You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

         Bodden wasn't released due to injury, or even money. He was released because he wasn't cutting it. 

        
     
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