Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    The drafting of Brady is not the lucky part guys it was obviously planned as is every BB move. What Brady has become is the real lucky part, rolling with 4 QB's on the roster does show that they thought he would be a good player but in all honesty can anyone ever say that they meant to draft a HOF player in the 6th round. Again I reiterate the drafting of Brady is not the lucky part, the player he has become is just blind luck i'm sure BB would admit that even if they assumed he'd be good there's no way they could assume he'd be this good
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I didn't know Manning was better than Leaf.  I wanted Leaf.  Glad I wasn't GM. 

    Teams don't bet on their late round draft picks.  They do however bet on their high round draft picks. 

    That said, teams may target players for late round picks, but there is no guarantee that those players will be around when their time to pick comes.  Nor can they know whether or not the player will be any good.  They pick people that they think have potential, and then they bring these players to camp and find out whether or not they were right. 

    From 2000 to 2008 there have been 345 players drafted in the 6th round.  Of those, 251 were NEVER a primary started in ANY season in which they played.  That is 73%.  And that doesn't even consider the players who may have started 1 or 2 years (likely because of injury to the primary starter). 

    The point is very few great players emerge from the 6th round and given the statistics, I am sure teams don't expect it.  Target or not, waiting until the 6th to take a player is pure luck, because given all of that time you can't expect another team not to take that player.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]I didn't know Manning was better than Leaf.  I wanted Leaf.  Glad I wasn't GM.  Teams don't bet on their late round draft picks.  They do however bet on their high round draft picks.  That said, teams may target players for late round picks, but there is no guarantee that those players will be around when their time to pick comes.  Nor can they know whether or not the player will be any good.  They pick people that they think have potential, and then they bring these players to camp and find out whether or not they were right.  From 2000 to 2008 there have been 345 players drafted in the 6th round.  Of those, 251 were NEVER a primary started in ANY season in which they played.  That is 73%.  And that doesn't even consider the players who may have started 1 or 2 years (likely because of injury to the primary starter).  The point is very few great players emerge from the 6th round and given the statistics, I am sure teams don't expect it.  Target or not, waiting until the 6th to take a player is pure luck, because given all of that time you can't expect another team not to take that player.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    You're getting your point across wrong man, as i've just said and I feel your trying to say is that the player Brady has become is really lucky. But the drafting of him you can't call lucky because he was on the pats draft board and they drafted him. It dosn't matter about the chances of him being there in round 6 or not, they planned to draft him and got him. You could even say that him being there in the 6th round is lucky you can't say the Patriots drafting him is lucky though because it was planned. I think the player the colts got in Peyton Manning is lucky but I can't say that the colts drafting Manning is lucky because they planned to take him and they got him!
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE] I don't see not signing Samuel as a mistake. Babe! I agree with you!  lol
    Posted by Philskiw1[/QUOTE]

         Initially, I didn't see it as a mistake, either. But, when I took into account the resources in money and draft picks which the Pats' used up, attempting to replace him...and the problems they've had from 2008-10 with their secondary...it's evident that they would have been better off if they spent the money to keep him.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Tex really seems to be hoping to win a job at the Globe (or maybe ESPN).  Hindsight is always 20-20.  The only way to really determine whether the Pats drafted well or poorly would be to do a comprehensive statistical analysis of the drafts of all teams over the past decade or so and then compare.  These "in hindsight" opinions (not based on any rigourous data) are the stock-and-trade of sportswriters . . . but they are absolutely meaningless since they have no statistical rigour. 
    Posted by prolate0spheroid[/QUOTE]

         Wins and loses is the way to determine whether a team is doing a good job drafting...not a ridiculous statistical analysis...LOL!!!

         AGAIN....for at least the 3rd time, koolaid drinkers...the purpose of this thread was to generate some good Patriots' football talk, in order to occupy the dwindling days of the boring pre-season. It was not meant to serve as a criticism of BB's job as a GM. Obviously, his successes far out-weigh his mistakes.

     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : You're getting your point across wrong man, as i've just said and I feel your trying to say is that the player Brady has become is really lucky. But the drafting of him you can't call lucky because he was on the pats draft board and they drafted him. It dosn't matter about the chances of him being there in round 6 or not, they planned to draft him and got him. You could even say that him being there in the 6th round is lucky you can't say the Patriots drafting him is lucky though because it was planned. I think the player the colts got in Peyton Manning is lucky but I can't say that the colts drafting Manning is lucky because they planned to take him and they got him!
    Posted by danemcmenamin[/QUOTE]
    nope - the player Brady has become is a result of Brady's own hard work.  On the other hand, the player Brady has become is far more than the Patriots ever expected him to become.  If they expected him to become so much more then I suggest to you that they would have picked him higher in order to guarantee that no other team got him.  I don't believe that the pats have cornered the market on finding "diamonds in the rough". 

    And I did say that Brady being around in the 6th is lucky, but to suggest that the pats expected to take Brady in the 6th (even if they had targeted him), is a fallacy.  That suggests that they knew no other team was going to take Brady in the top 200 picks, and I don't believe that nor do I think Nostradomus was sitting in the Pats War Room that day. 
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      Wins and loses is the way to determine whether a team is doing a good job drafting...not a ridiculous statistical analysis...LOL!!!      AGAIN....for at least the 3rd time, koolaid drinkers...the purpose of this thread was to generate some good Patriots' football talk, in order to occupy the dwindling days of the boring pre-season. It was not meant to serve as a criticism of BB's job as a GM. Obviously, his successes far out-weigh his mistakes.
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    I get it bro haha. Hopefully I wasn't over-critical of you. I guess it's how you phrased the thread. 'Errors' that 'haunt'. To say that any team has erred in the draft would be a gross understatement. They've all done it, I'd say we've done it less than others. And 'haunt' is a strong word too because we were expected to take a dip somewhere down the road (2009-2011) as we replaced the valuable pieces that left at once almost. We played VERY competitive football in our rebuilding years so if that's what you'd categorize as 'haunt', I would take issue with that. Not to say I didn't EXPECT a Super Bowl in those years because with this team of Brady/Kraft/Belichick, I've been spoiled to expect titles. At the same time, I know this is the year it's all supposed to come together for a title run since the rebuilding process is basically complete in my eyes. We have a great mix of talented youth and seasoned veterans.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I would add the decion to trade Deion Branch instead of re-signing him in 2006.  The Patriots making it all the way to the AFCCG in '06, which was really the SB that year IMO, was a testament to Brady.  If Brady had Branch in that game they go on to the SB and smoke the Bears.  Instead, he has to depend on the likes of Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, Jabar Gaffney and Chad Jackson.  Then we use the '07 1st round pick we got in the trade to take Merriweather, who's been a huge disappointment.   
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]I would add the decion to trade Deion Branch instead of re-signing him in 2006.  The Patriots making it all the way to the AFCCG in '06, which was really the SB that year IMO, was a testament to Brady.  If Brady had Branch in that game they go on to the SB and smoke the Bears.  Instead, he has to depend on the likes of Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel, Jabar Gaffney and Chad Jackson.  Then we use the '07 1st round pick we got in the trade to take Merriweather, who's been a huge disappointment.   
    Posted by ShiningWizard[/QUOTE]

         Branch wouldn't have mattered. The referees made sure that Indy went to the SB that year. But for the refs, that game would have been a Patriots' blow-out.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    1. In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
      [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : No kidding, right.  What's with Sanchez waiting until he played to prove that he's winner(24 games in 2 years).  Why couldn't he have done that before he was drafted? If the pick of Brady shows "intelligent scouting and drafting" do the picks of O'Connell, Davies, and Kingsbury show the lack of?  It's just so hard to look at both side of things, isn't it?
      Posted by McCheaters[/QUOTE]

           Rex Ryan gets too much credit for the Jets' success over the past two years. Aside from the Vernon Gholston fiasco in 2008, Mike Tannenbaum has done a fabulous job with the Jets. Some of his outstanding personnel moves were:

      1.) Stealing Santonio Holmes from the Steelers for just a 6th round pick was truly grand larceny;

      2.) Moving up to draft CB Darrelle Revis in 2007 (The New York Jets traded their first-round selection, the first of their second-round selections, and their fifth-round selection (25th, 59th, and 164th overall, used to select Jon Beason, Ryan Kalil, and Tim Shaw, respectively), to Carolina for Carolina's first- and sixth-round selections (14th and 191st overall, used to select Darrelle Revis and Korey Hall, respectively).Allen, Eric (2007-04-28). http://nyjets.com/news/articles/show_permalink/jets-move-up-and-select-pitt-cb-revis" class="external text">"Jets Move Up and Select Pitt CB Revis". Nyjets.com. Archived from the original on 2007-05-02. http://nyjets.com/news/articles/show_permalink/jets-move-up-and-select-pitt-cb-revis" class="external free">http://web.archive.org/web/20070502015156/http://nyjets.com/news/articles/show_permalink/jets-move-up-and-select-pitt-cb-revis. Retrieved 2007-04-28.) arguably the top defender in the NFL;

      3.) Trading up to the 5th overall selection, without giving away the farm ( #5: Cleveland → New York Jets (D). Cleveland traded its first-round selection (5th overall, used to select Mark Sanchez) to the Jets for the Jets' first- and second-round selections (17th overall, traded to Tampa Bay, who selected Josh Freeman; and 52nd overall, used to select David Veikune), Kenyon Coleman, Brett Ratliff, and Abram Elam.[source 1])...to select QB Mark Sanchez;

      4.) Selection of pro-bowl center, Nick Mangold, with the 29th overall pick in the 2009 draft;

            5.) Drafting all-pro ILB David Harris with the 52nd overall in 2007.

            6.) Firing Mangini and hiring Rex Ryan;          


            7.) Acquiring CB Antonio Cromartie for a conditional 2nd rounder;

            8.) Signing UFAs Jim Leonard and Bart Scott from Baltimore.

     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Hard to argue with the list, but hindsight is 20/20 (Matthews pick aside).

    I have vivid memories of being on this board during the drafting of Maroney and Jackson, and EVERYONE here was downright GIDDY...and the following day on WEEI, Brady could barely control himself talking about the new "toys" Uncle Bill had bought for him.

    Sometimes, sh!t just doesn't work out as planned.To BB's credit, he doesn't dwell on mistakes of the past; he usually (Maroney aside) cuts his losses and runs.

    More importantly, we should remember that some other team failed to draft Logan Mankins or Devin McCourty or Jerod Mayo, et cetera, in a move that, for them, turned out to be a bust. It happens to everyone.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Not really a fan of "hindsighting" the draft.

    Tell me exactly what's going to happen in the next five years and I'll get it right every time.



     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : nope - the player Brady has become is a result of Brady's own hard work.  On the other hand, the player Brady has become is far more than the Patriots ever expected him to become.  If they expected him to become so much more then I suggest to you that they would have picked him higher in order to guarantee that no other team got him.  I don't believe that the pats have cornered the market on finding "diamonds in the rough".  And I did say that Brady being around in the 6th is lucky, but to suggest that the pats expected to take Brady in the 6th (even if they had targeted him), is a fallacy.  That suggests that they knew no other team was going to take Brady in the top 200 picks, and I don't believe that nor do I think Nostradomus was sitting in the Pats War Room that day. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    Gawd man i'm almost agreeing with what your saying and you still jump straight down my throat. Me saying that Brady being available in the 6th was lucky was me agreeing with you saying that. I was stating all the things that were lucky in the development of Brady i.e. him being there in the 6th and him becoming a HOF QB out of the 6th round. I'm merely stating that the drafting of Brady was planned he was obviously on their draft chart and they drafted him therefore it was planned therefore that part is not luck that's just common sense man. I agree the other factors are amazing luck. When did I ever say they expected to take Brady in the 6th round that's just you making up things in my head. I didn't think you were as bad as McCheaters but it's now quite clear that you are i.e. your main intention is not to discuss football on this forum it is to annoy pats fans and be a general troll

     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    They know that they planned to draft him that day, they just really can't admit it. It's so pathetic even when you agree with some of the guys points he still comes after you for nothing. It'll be the last time I give a troll a chance anyway. The green eyed monster is a terrible thing man if only UD was born in new england we might have been able to have some good converstion with him but instead of that he's spent the day calling a fact lies. Underdog the Patriots planned for Brady that day they got a good college QB in the 6th round, the fact it was the 6th round and the hard work of Brady are 2 different factors but they wanted to draft Brady and they drafted him there is no argument there!!
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : A certain kind of QB like O'Connell, Kingsbury or Davies?  Is that the kind of QB he wanted?
    Posted by McCheaters[/QUOTE]

    Sometimes you hit and sometimes you miss man it happens it's only human can you not admit that, O' Connell, Kingsbury and Davies are 3 QB's the patriots drafted here are another 3 Brady, Cassel and Hoyer......and Mallett for good measure if you like

     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]I couldn't understand a word of that..mumbling. Try again, but this time get Hoodie's unit out of your mouth.
    Posted by McCheaters[/QUOTE]
    Here's what I don't get -

    If, as Rusty said, Belichick was SO far ahead of everyone else in identifying talent that he could KNOWINGLY target one of the next all-time great QB's while also KNOWING that he could do it without spending more than a 6th rd pick on him, then how in the world could he have possibly missed on the likes of Adrian Klemm, JR Redmond, Brock Williams, Guss Scott, Chad Jackson, KEVIN O'CONNELL, and Tyrone McKenzie?  

    All of the guys were drafted AT LEAST 3 rounds above Brady and none of them sniffed a career.    And if Belichick's talent isn't for all positions but is specific to QB's, then how come O'Connell was a bust?  I mean even if he didn't make it with the Pats, surely he would have made it somewhere else, right? 
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Gawd man i'm almost agreeing with what your saying and you still jump straight down my throat. Me saying that Brady being available in the 6th was lucky was me agreeing with you saying that. I was stating all the things that were lucky in the development of Brady i.e. him being there in the 6th and him becoming a HOF QB out of the 6th round. I'm merely stating that the drafting of Brady was planned he was obviously on their draft chart and they drafted him therefore it was planned therefore that part is not luck that's just common sense man. I agree the other factors are amazing luck. When did I ever say they expected to take Brady in the 6th round that's just you making up things in my head. I didn't think you were as bad as McCheaters but it's now quite clear that you are i.e. your main intention is not to discuss football on this forum it is to annoy pats fans and be a general troll
    Posted by danemcmenamin[/QUOTE]

    dance - Sorry - I didn't read your post that way.  If we see eye to eye, cheers. 

    I'll agree that Brady was likely on the pats board and may have at the top of their board when they made the pick. 

    What I won't accept, and what Rusty constantly tries to sell, is that Belichick knew he was picking the next great QB when he took Brady in the 6th and was uniquely aware of this.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I think the only error that one can reasonably argue is letting Richard Seymore go. If we'd had a pass rush last year, we must likely would have made it further into the playoffs. We wouldn't have been just about the worst team in the league on 3rd downs. 

    The original five that began this thread are conjecture. 
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I still think about that 2006 draft - when we took Laurence Maroney over Maurice Jones Drew and DeAngelo Williams, and we took Chad Jackson over Greg Jennings and Brandon Marshall, four HUGE oversights, I wouldnt call them mistakes, but major major oversights...  Reading this list makes me depressed.  When are the Patriots going to start using their 1st and 2nd round picks instead of trading down for a bunch of crap 3rd rounders that dont make the team... BB thinks he's the god of the draft, and in my mind, he tinkers too much, just make the dang picks where you're at and get some "quality" players!  I love the Patriots but HATE Bill Belichick come draft time!
     
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