Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Hey wait a second Tex, did we lose to the Jets because we have "the worst pass defense" or because they "pressured Brady up the middle" ?
     
    RESPONSE: Both...go back and watch the game, if you can stomach it. The pass defense was awful...and Brady was sacked and harassed the entire game...resulting in his worst performance of the season.

    Is our offensive line your major concern or not having Asante Samuel?
     
    RESPONSE: The OL was horrible in the pre-season. But, go ahead...keep guzzling the koolaid, Glass Joe...LOL!!

    Is it Leigh Boddens fault that our secondary is so bad?

    RESPONSE: Oh no...Leigh Bodden's a superstar...right, Glass Joe? LOL!!!    

    Or maybe you still think that "Brady can't get over the 07 SB" as you suggested to me last year? Forgive me if I sound aggressive, I'm just trying to get some clarity on your past statements.

    RESPONSE: I think that Brady's confidence has been shaken by the losses to the Giants and Jets...yes. So now, lets see where you stand, Glass Joe. So...you think Bodden is a star? You think that the Pats' OL is just fine the way they're playing...and you think that the Patriots' secondary is fine, too. Yes...I understand exactly where you're coming from, Glass Joe. Now, go sip on some warm koolaid, and go to bed, son.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :       Fans of the Jets were also laughing, as they watched the worst pass defense in the NFL make Mark Sanchez look like Peyton Manning on steroids. 
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Devin McCourty is better than Asante Samuel is or ever has been, D Mac actually brings it in run support.  The "worst pass defense" in the NFL led the league in interceptions last season.  Just because the front couldn't stop anyone from converting 3rd downs or create any pass rush how does that reflect on our missing Asante Samuel?  The Jets physically manhandled our O line, not likely to happen this year unless O'Brien decides to play run and shoot offense again. I think this thread is beginning to haunt you...
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Hey wait a second Tex, did we lose to the Jets because we have "the worst pass defense" or because they "pressured Brady up the middle" ?
     
    RESPONSE: Both...go back and watch the game, if you can stomach it. The pass defense was awful...and Brady was sacked and harassed the entire game...resulting in his worst performance of the season.

    Is our offensive line your major concern or not having Asante Samuel?
     
    RESPONSE: The OL was horrible in the pre-season. But, go ahead...keep guzzling the koolaid, Glass Joe...LOL!!

    Is it Leigh Boddens fault that our secondary is so bad?

    RESPONSE: Oh no...Leigh Bodden's a superstar...right, Glass Joe? LOL!!!    

    Or maybe you still think that "Brady can't get over the 07 SB" as you suggested to me last year? Forgive me if I sound aggressive, I'm just trying to get some clarity on your past statements.

    RESPONSE: I think that Brady's confidence has been shaken by the losses to the Giants and Jets...yes. So now, lets see where you stand, Glass Joe. So...you think Bodden is a star? You think that the Pats' OL is just fine the way they're playing...and you think that the Patriots' secondary is fine, too. Yes...I understand exactly where you're coming from, Glass Joe. Now, go sip on some warm koolaid, and go to bed, son.


    I stand by my team there negative nancy. You think Brady's confidence has been shaken by the Jets? What the hell has Brady done since the Jets playoff loss last year to lead you to this conclusion?

    Lets go over things.

    I am a koolaider because I say Leigh Bodden is not a failure and you say he is?

    I am a koolaider because you make a RIDICULOUS  statement like Bradys confidence is shaken  from last years Jets game when you haven't even seen him play a NFL regular season game yet?

    Do you realize how absurd that last statement is? You have absolutely no reason to come up with that opinion. Sounds like troll talk to me.

    I am a koolaider because you think our offensive line is horrible and I don't agree?

    You sound bitter for getting called out on a few things.

    I think our young defense made up of early round draft picks and a veteran d-line will improve this year and showed improvement last year.

    I think Brady is confident because that's how he has always been and I expect him to be as good or better then last year(if that's even possible)

    I also believe you represent the typical negative Pats fan who thinks anything less then a SB victory is a monumental failure.

    Now I would tell you to go to bed, but you probably already passed out in the arm chair from the bourbon your using to wash away the miserable Patriot memories from your childhood.

    Night Night!
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Oh if only the great Texaspat could manage our roster, we would never have any personnel errors!  We'd be just like the 31 other teams in the league that do everything perfect and win every game every year.   Oh why are we cursed with such a wretched franchise???
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    You kool-aide drinking clowns should give TexasPat a break. This Hoodie is an infallible genius BS is tired and stupid, and the less you know about the NFL the more you buy into that simpleton hype. Hoodie screws up plenty.

    TP and I have locked horns a few times, so I'm not on his Christmas card list - but I will still say he understands the game better than most of you ever will.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    There's two sides to every coin. Tex loves a good debate!
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    This is a very thorough and accurate post.
    Every year, the Pats can "control the draft" and manuever to get the impact player(s) they need; howver, BB likes to collect bonus picks late.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :       Fans of the Jets were also laughing, as they watched the worst pass defense in the NFL make Mark Sanchez look like Peyton Manning on steroids. 
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]


    I know. People live on 'paper.' Tell me one Patriots' team that had two solid corners at any point since he left. 

    2008 Hobbs/Deltha O'Neal/Wilhite
    2009 Bodden/Wilhite/Butler
    2010 McCourty/Butler/Arrington

    All of those units desperately needed a player like Samuel. Heck. I thought they would miss him them ... as it was clear that Hobbs wasn't good enough, but people went off about how they could start anyone back there. A few years later, Samuel has what like 20+ more picks tow or three more probowls, and now his 'inflated' contract isn't even in the top five for corners. 

    You could even argue that another great corner has NE beating the Jets. All of the Jets' biggest offensive plays were against Arrington ... a long gainer to Edwards that set up a TD and the TD to Holmes. 

    Here is hoping that Bodden is healthy and/or that Dowling is ready to conribute ... because the backup depth isn't so hot, and if Bodden is out ... there will be another long (as in worst 3rd and long percentage) season in store.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : I know. People live on 'paper.' Tell me one Patriots' team that had two solid corners at any point since he left.  2008 Hobbs/Deltha O'Neal/Wilhite 2009 Bodden/Wilhite/Butler 2010 McCourty/Butler/Arrington All of those units desperately needed a player like Samuel. Heck. I thought they would miss him them ... as it was clear that Hobbs wasn't good enough, but people went off about how they could start anyone back there. A few years later, Samuel has what like 20+ more picks tow or three more probowls, and now his 'inflated' contract isn't even in the top five for corners.  You could even argue that another great corner has NE beating the Jets. All of the Jets' biggest offensive plays were against Arrington ... a long gainer to Edwards that set up a TD and the TD to Holmes.  Here is hoping that Bodden is healthy and/or that Dowling is ready to conribute ... because the backup depth isn't so hot, and if Bodden is out ... there will be another long (as in worst 3rd and long percentage) season in store.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    I don't think they should of made an effort to keep Asante. To me Asante was an undersized guy that struggled with bigger receivers and (although tried) to play physical...couldn't. He had good hands and could jump a route, but he also would miss on some and it would hurt us. I never thought of this guy as a lock down corner and he's taken a lot of heat in Philly over the last two years. At one point this offseason there was speculation that he'd be traded, and Asante has claimed that he doesn't get any love from the coaching staff.

    Did we do a good job replacing him? Nope, the worst part is all the resources we've used to replace him - cap space - draft picks. I hate to think of all the players they've brought in over the years to fill that secondary...Springs, O'Neil, Bodden, Wheatly, Whilite, Butler, Marshal, Hobbs. There was many "other" spots that got neglected because of our many failed attempts in the secondary, but I still don't think not signing Asante was a bad idea. We still would of spent some picks and money on that spot, it was our fault we picked the wrong guys.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from shenanigan. Show shenanigan's posts

    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]cunningham over dunlap was a major miscue. i called for a change to the 43 before the past two drafts. dunlap is a 21 year old monster coming off a rookie season with more sacks than Suh. the pats doibled down on the 34 in the 2010 draft by selecting spikes, who had and has little 43 flexibility. plenty of rangy 43 linebackers available in this past draft, and de romeus or lb herzlich could have been had in the seventh round, along with quality running backs. instead we took two rbs early instead of just one, in a rb class with an abundance of depth. Oh, and that seventh rounder was wasted on a backup safety who has since been cut to nobody's surprise.
    Posted by arodrambone[/QUOTE]
    Dunlap didn't have more sacks than Suh, but comparing an interior lineman with a DE in sacks makes no sense.  10 is an extremely high number for a DT but he was still 20th in the NFL, he was the only DT in the top 25 in sacks.  Dunlap's 9.5 sacks is decent but it's myopic to look at sacks as an indicator of production.  Cunningham had almost twice as many tackles and 2 forced fumbles.  You could argue that any player who is just asked to rush the passer should be able to get 8-10 sacks in a season (TBC did it).  Both played OK as rookies but thus far neither are great and I wouldn't base any judgement off one year.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE] Nope, the worst part is all the resources we've used to replace him - cap space - draft picks. I hate to think of all the players they've brought in over the years to fill that secondary...Springs, O'Neil, Bodden, Wheatly, Whilite, Butler, Marshal, Hobbs. There was many "other" spots that got neglected because of our many failed attempts in the secondary, but I still don't think not signing Asante was a bad idea. We still would of spent some picks and money on that spot, it was our fault we picked the wrong guys.
    Posted by mthurl[/QUOTE]

    NE wouldn't have had to devote so many resources if they just hung on to Samuel ... that is the point. But this was/is EXACTLY the point I was making when they let him go. And I will repeat it again (and again in the future at some point):

    Corners don't grow on trees in the modern, post-Mungy-rule NFL. That is why they are the second highest paid roster position spot after QBs. Great corners, even ones who aren't perfect like Samuel, certainly don't grow on trees either. In a league where elite corners get $12-18 million per season, $9 million per is going rate for a guy who is just below that stature. NE will/has had a terrible time trying to replace him. 

    In the end, Mike Reiss wrote a column that agreed with my basic premise mid off-season last year once Bodden went down ... for a guy who makes very few mistakes, BB misjudged the market on this one. Samuel's contract looks like a bargain right now given NEs shaky (to say the least) 3rd down defense the last three seasons. 

    I would even use the Jets, who make personnel mistakes daily, as exhibit 'A' ...  they greatly improved their defense, even amid ghastly personnel mistakes such as Gholston, Pace, Wilson, and a few others simply by investing hard in the CB position. They are always hanging in there in games against great QBs becaus they can take away their targets making the mediocre NJ pass rush seem a lot better. 
    Addendum: here is hoping Bodden is healthy and still has 'it.'
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]There's two sides to every coin. Tex loves a good debate!
    Posted by digger0862[/QUOTE]

    You're right. Have at him!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Oh if only the great Texaspat could manage our roster, we would never have any personnel errors!  We'd be just like the 31 other teams in the league that do everything perfect and win every game every year.   Oh why are we cursed with such a wretched franchise???
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

         LOL!!!
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Oh if only the great Texaspat could manage our roster, we would never have any personnel errors!  We'd be just like the 31 other teams in the league that do everything perfect and win every game every year.   Oh why are we cursed with such a wretched franchise???
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]
    TP, with all respect to your apparent football knowledge and willingness to sling it with the folks here, it is VERY EASY to Monday-Morning Quarterback, which you seem to be doing here.  You haves made lots of assumptions about past trades and draft, implying BB and the Pats brass were all wrong with their thinking.  I guess you were a fly on the wall in BB's office or somehow have a better idea what they should have been thinking?  How can anyone, let alone yourself, believe the team knowingly made bad decisions?  Everything they did was with information and opinions it would work.  If they all could have the 20/20 hindsight you imply the Pats should have had, we'd have many more SB trophies in the trophy case.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Samuel is a strictly finesse cover corner who brings nothing in run coverage, if he is so amazing why is Philly paying megabucks to Ashimonga Adhsdfhuvhsdvhuvubsvd all of a sudden?  Did I spell that right?

    Our defense has been "rebuilding" since the Super Bowl loss to the Giants, you point to corners being the problem but we haven't had three healthy D Linemen to field a legitimate 3/4 front since Seymour left.  IMO offensive play calling has been the biggest detriment to this team and why we make an early exit from the playoffs yearly.

    You make moves that keep your team competitive and rebuild through the draft, what you don't do is overpay.  Asante is soft, he couldn't beat out Eugene Wilson at free safety, it took him 2 seasons before he was even starting, McCourty is a cornerstone defensive back that you build around who went to the Pro Bowl as a rookie, Asante is good when he is surrounded by talent and doesn't have to make a tackle.

    Only a New England fan could complain about Bill Belichick, an outsider looking in would say we're spoiled...

     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : NE wouldn't have had to devote so many resources if they just hung on to Samuel ... that is the point. But this was/is EXACTLY the point I was making when they let him go. And I will repeat it again (and again in the future at some point): Corners don't grow on trees in the modern, post-Mungy-rule NFL. That is why they are the second highest paid roster position spot after QBs. Great corners, even ones who aren't perfect like Samuel, certainly don't grow on trees either. In a league where elite corners get $12-18 million per season, $9 million per is going rate for a guy who is just below that stature. NE will/has had a terrible time trying to replace him.  In the end, Mike Reiss wrote a column that agreed with my basic premise mid off-season last year once Bodden went down ... for a guy who makes very few mistakes, BB misjudged the market on this one. Samuel's contract looks like a bargain right now given NEs shaky (to say the least) 3rd down defense the last three seasons.  I would even use the Jets, who make personnel mistakes daily, as exhibit 'A' ...  they greatly improved their defense, even amid ghastly personnel mistakes such as Gholston, Pace, Wilson, and a few others simply by investing hard in the CB position. They are always hanging in there in games against great QBs becaus they can take away their targets making the mediocre NJ pass rush seem a lot better.  Addendum: here is hoping Bodden is healthy and still has 'it.'
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]
    It's certainly debatable, I'm just biased because I didn't think he wasn't that great of a player. You're right though, corners don't grow on trees, neither do...pass rushers, QB's, and left tackles. It's funny that the one position that I think does grow on trees is offensive guards, and we shelled out huge money to keep ours. As For Samual's contract not being much as of today, you could say that about almost any nfl contract - they're like cell phones or computers - they are outdated the moment the ink dries...it's what is wrong with the nfl and sports in general.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Hey wait a second Tex, did we lose to the Jets because we have "the worst pass defense" or because they "pressured Brady up the middle" ?   RESPONSE: Both...go back and watch the game, if you can stomach it. The pass defense was awful...and Brady was sacked and harassed the entire game...resulting in his worst performance of the season. Is our offensive line your major concern or not having Asante Samuel?   RESPONSE: The OL was horrible in the pre-season. But, go ahead...keep guzzling the koolaid, Glass Joe...LOL!! Is it Leigh Boddens fault that our secondary is so bad? RESPONSE: Oh no...Leigh Bodden's a superstar...right, Glass Joe? LOL!!!      Or maybe you still think that "Brady can't get over the 07 SB" as you suggested to me last year? Forgive me if I sound aggressive, I'm just trying to get some clarity on your past statements. RESPONSE: I think that Brady's confidence has been shaken by the losses to the Giants and Jets...yes. So now, lets see where you stand, Glass Joe. So...you think Bodden is a star? You think that the Pats' OL is just fine the way they're playing...and you think that the Patriots' secondary is fine, too. Yes...I understand exactly where you're coming from, Glass Joe. Now, go sip on some warm koolaid, and go to bed, son. I stand by my team there negative nancy.
     
    RESPONSE: Negative Nancy?? Is that the best that you can do?? Did you find a third-grader to help you out on that one?? LOL!!!

    You think Brady's confidence has been shaken by the Jets? What the hell has Brady done since the Jets playoff loss last year to lead you to this conclusion?
     
    RESPONSE: Yes...judging from the way he played in that awful playoff loss. It was his worst game of the season. The happy feet...and the way he seemed to carry himself. Also, from his own words...when he said something to the effect that he's never going to get over that loss.  

    Lets go over things. I am a koolaider because I say Leigh Bodden is not a failure and you say he is?
     
    RESPONSE: Your a koolaider because you seemingly can't be objective. There's a reason why the Patriots haven't won a playoff game since 2008. If they were as great as you say think they are, they would have won three straight SBs. Getting back to Bodden, he had a very mediocre first year with the Pats. True, he led the team in interceptions in 2009 with five...but three came in one game, against a then very green rookie named Mark Sanchez. Since then, the Pats paid him big money to serve as Asante Samuel's replacement, and he's been hurt ever since.
         Let me put it to you this way. Suppose Bodden was a Jet, and was signed to replace Antonio Cromartie. In his first year with the Goblins, suppose he picked off 5 passes, but three came in one game against Miami, and then rookie QB Chad Henne. Next, in 2010, suppose he signed a big money contract...but got hurt, and never played a down, thereafter. If you then saw a post from Jets' troll McCheaters singing Bodden's praises as a star CB, how would you reply to him?  


    I am a koolaider because you make a RIDICULOUS  statement like Bradys confidence is shaken  from last years Jets game when you haven't even seen him play a NFL regular season game yet?
     
    RESPONSE: That's your opinion. Mine is that his confidence was shaken from that awful SB loss to the Giants, and those two embarrassing playoff losses at home. For proof? Has he played in the play-offs the way he has in the regular season? Has he been the same confident, mistake free leader in the play-offs? Sorry...but he hasn't been on his game in the play-offs since that SB loss.

    Do you realize how absurd that last statement is? You have absolutely no reason to come up with that opinion. Sounds like troll talk to me.
     
    RESPONSE: Of course, because you're incapable of being objective. If anyone dares to say anything negative about the Pats, then he must be a troll...according to you.  

    I am a koolaider because you think our offensive line is horrible and I don't agree?
     
    RESPONSE: Those are your words, not mine. The OL has played poorly during the preseason. As an objective Patriots' fan, that's cause for concern. Even Tedy Bruschi has stated similar concerns. Do I believe that the Patriots' OL is without talent? No. Do I believe that some players on the OL are fading with age (Matt Light and Dan Koppen)? Yes. Do I believe that the Pats have a horrible OL? No. Do I believe that their OL is of SB caliber? I have my doubts...after all...they didn't protect Brady well at all in their last three playoff games.   

    You sound bitter for getting called out on a few things.

    RESPONSE: What things? What you say doesn't concern me...because I know that you are incapable of being objective.

    I think our young defense made up of early round draft picks and a veteran d-line will improve this year and showed improvement last year.
     
    RESPONSE: The Pats' pass defense was the worst in the NFL last year. THE WORST!! I credit BB for perhaps the finest coaching job of his career last year...in leading his young, pass-defense challenged team to a sensational 14-2 season. But...the team's flaws were exposed in that playoff loss to the Jets.
         Do I think that the "D" will be better this season? It better be! I believe that Albert Haynesworth will be a very good addition...and that the Pats will be able to mount a better pass rush this year, than they have in the past two seasons.
         But, the secondary appears very shaky. Patrick Chung does some nice things, but can't cover a locked door. Who knows who will start beside him at FS? At CB, Devin McCourty has shown himself to be a player. But, who knows whether the overrated Bodden can regain his health? Kyle Arrington tries hard, but is best suited in a reserve role. I view Darius Butler as a bust. Who knows what Ras-I Dowling can do?      


    I think Brady is confident because that's how he has always been and I expect him to be as good or better then last year(if that's even possible)
     
    RESPONSE: Sorry...but he hasn't played with confidence in the play-offs. His OL is greatly to blame for this...as Tom has gotten killed in his last three play-off games. He's been sacked 13 times in those three games, and was hit repeatedly.   

    I also believe you represent the typical negative Pats fan who thinks anything less then a SB victory is a monumental failure.
     
    RESPONSE: Isn't it? Making the play-offs ceased to be the goal for this franchise 10 years ago. The Pats have become like the old Tom Landry led Dallas Cowboys. With Tom Brady, BB, and the talent they have...anything less than a trip to the SB is a failure. Who in the AFC should beat them? Do you feel that last season, including the playoff loss to the Jets at home, was a success?  
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

       I am surprised to hear people would have willingly paid 60 mill for Samuel(1 single cb who at best takes away 1 single player on offense) it is not in this teams history to do so. QB's get paid, Dominant d-linemen like Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork get paid. Belichick nor Pioli broke the bank for any single player who felt they out performed the contract. Ask Ty Law and Lawer Milloy about this.

    I agree with the above poster as well, Samuel may add up the INT's in a good defense but it is telling that the Eagles felt compelled to go after 2 guys that play the same position and give up so much to get them.

    For the record I do think BB and staff planned poorly with Samuel. They didn't have a replacement on the roster and had already franchised him once so they had to know they would let him walk. I think it was a mistake not to have somebody ready but I think it would have more of a mistake to give the 4rth rounder 60 million and cripple your team for the next few years.


     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : TP, with all respect to your apparent football knowledge and willingness to sling it with the folks here, it is VERY EASY to Monday-Morning Quarterback, which you seem to be doing here.  You haves made lots of assumptions about past trades and draft, implying BB and the Pats brass were all wrong with their thinking.  I guess you were a fly on the wall in BB's office or somehow have a better idea what they should have been thinking?  How can anyone, let alone yourself, believe the team knowingly made bad decisions?  Everything they did was with information and opinions it would work.  If they all could have the 20/20 hindsight you imply the Pats should have had, we'd have many more SB trophies in the trophy case.
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]

         Bill...for the 6th time...the purpose of this thread was not to criticize BB. Everyone here realizes that he's made far more good decisions, than bad. But, he's not infallible. He has made his mistakes...and discussing them seemed to be a good topic to generate some good Patriots' football talk, as we wind our way through the remainder of the preseason.

         Furthermore, where have I said that BB "knowingly" made bad decisions?? I just listed what, in my opinion, were his worst moves over the past five years.   
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    This thread has officially jumped the shark. I think it did so four pages ago, in fact.

    OK, let's now bash BB even more for the Meriweather pick now that he's officially gone. Same with the Tate pick. Have at it.

    I'll repeat, once again, that for ANY player drafted outside of the Top 15 in the first round, your expectations should be that he: 1--makes the team; 2--becomes a starter eventually; and 3--might develop into a Pro Bowler some day.

    You're not talking about the "slam dunk" prospects once you get past the first half of the draft (although excellent players do slide, like Wilfork and Jerry Rice, for instance).

    As good as Bill Polian is, what "great" players has he selected outside of the Top 15 during his Colts tenure? Really, it's just one--Reggie Wayne--whom I believe was a second-half of the first round selection. Addai's a good player, not a great one. Bob Sanders had his moments as a second rounder, but couldn't stay on the field.

    Polians top three picks as Colts' GM have been Manning (first overall), Edgerrin James (top five pick), and Freeney (11th overall).

    BB's best first rounders, aside from stealing Wilfork at #21, where he NEVER should have been available for them, have been Seymour (sixth overall), Mayo (10th overall) and probably Ty Warren (13th overall). He made a great pick at #32 in Logan Mankins, and give McCourty a couple more years to prove himself, but that #27 overall pick could turn out to be a great one, too. 

    The draft is a crapshoot, period.

    The Ryan Leaf/Manning discussion that was mentioned earlier in this thread proves it. NOBODY saw Leaf being that kind of bust. NOBODY.

    The Colts, in the end, took Manning because they liked his off-the-field makeup better than Leaf's. His on-field abilities weren't that much different.....but then again, how were the Colts to know that Manning wasn't just "acting" when they interviewed him? They had no way of knowing that: just like the Chargers really had no way of knowing that Leaf was a real jerk who didn't want to work that hard once he got the NFL money.

    OK, the 2006 and 2007 drafts (if you ignore the trades for Welker and Moss) were not good ones for BB. He missed on a lot of picks in 2008, too, but he also nailed the Mayo pick, got a really good special teamer in Slater, and also signed Green-Ellis and Guyton as UFAs. It really wasn't that bad a draft haul, especially when you consider that "Red Light" sabotaged that draft from the get-go with his extreme overpunishment of docking a first round pick for Spygate.

    2009 had its misses, for sure, but all in all that draft was solid (Chung, Vollmer, Pryor, Edelman, Hoyer as a UFA, with Brace, Ohrnberger and Butler still hanging on for now).

    2010 was a grand slam homer. That's not even debatable.

    2011? We'll see, but some of the guys looked pretty good in pre-season.

    BB's draft record stacks up as well as anyone's over the last decade. That's not even debatable.

    His overall personnel decisions, which also have been criticized here, have led to a 135-44 record, including post-season, since 2001.

    Yeah, he's really bad at his job.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      Bill...for the 6th time...the purpose of this thread was not to criticize BB. Everyone here realizes that he's made far more good decisions, than bad. But, he's not infallible. He has made his mistakes...and discussing them seemed to be a good topic to generate some good Patriots' football talk, as we wind our way through the remainder of the preseason.      Furthermore, where have I said that BB " knowingly " made bad decisions?? I just listed what, in my opinion, were his worst moves over the past five years.   
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]
    TP - understand your points.. but, you posit these moves implying the Pats should have known they would backfire.  Who's to say what would have happened if they kept AS or chosen other players in the drafts or free agency?  I see what you did, and that ws to rank, in your opinion, those decisions made and the impact to the team. 
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : TP - understand your points.. but, you posit these moves implying the Pats should have known they would backfire.

    RESPONSE: Please point out how you think I did that? 

    Who's to say what would have happened if they kept AS or chosen other players in the drafts or free agency?

    RESPONSE: It's my opinion. Don't you think that the Pats, last year and now, would be a better team if they had kept Asante, drafted Clay Matthews, and selected WR Mike Wallace over Brandon Tate?

    I see what you did, and that ws to rank, in your opinion, those decisions made and the impact to the team. 
    Posted by agcsbill[/QUOTE]
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]This thread has officially jumped the shark. I think it did so four pages ago, in fact. OK, let's now bash BB even more for the Meriweather pick now that he's officially gone. Same with the Tate pick. Have at it. I'll repeat, once again, that for ANY player drafted outside of the Top 15 in the first round, your expectations should be that he: 1--makes the team; 2--becomes a starter eventually; and 3--might develop into a Pro Bowler some day. You're not talking about the "slam dunk" prospects once you get past the first half of the draft (although excellent players do slide, like Wilfork and Jerry Rice, for instance). As good as Bill Polian is, what "great" players has he selected outside of the Top 15 during his Colts tenure? Really, it's just one--Reggie Wayne--whom I believe was a second-half of the first round selection. Addai's a good player, not a great one. Bob Sanders had his moments as a second rounder, but couldn't stay on the field. Polians top three picks as Colts' GM have been Manning (first overall), Edgerrin James (top five pick), and Freeney (11th overall). BB's best first rounders, aside from stealing Wilfork at #21, where he NEVER should have been available for them, have been Seymour (sixth overall), Mayo (10th overall) and probably Ty Warren (13th overall). He made a great pick at #32 in Logan Mankins, and give McCourty a couple more years to prove himself, but that #27 overall pick could turn out to be a great one, too.  The draft is a crapshoot, period. The Ryan Leaf/Manning discussion that was mentioned earlier in this thread proves it. NOBODY saw Leaf being that kind of bust. NOBODY. The Colts, in the end, took Manning because they liked his off-the-field makeup better than Leaf's. His on-field abilities weren't that much different.....but then again, how were the Colts to know that Manning wasn't just "acting" when they interviewed him? They had no way of knowing that: just like the Chargers really had no way of knowing that Leaf was a real jerk who didn't want to work that hard once he got the NFL money. OK, the 2006 and 2007 drafts (if you ignore the trades for Welker and Moss) were not good ones for BB. He missed on a lot of picks in 2008, too, but he also nailed the Mayo pick, got a really good special teamer in Slater, and also signed Green-Ellis and Guyton as UFAs. It really wasn't that bad a draft haul, especially when you consider that "Red Light" sabotaged that draft from the get-go with his extreme overpunishment of docking a first round pick for Spygate. 2009 had its misses, for sure, but all in all that draft was solid (Chung, Vollmer, Pryor, Edelman, Hoyer as a UFA, with Brace, Ohrnberger and Butler still hanging on for now). 2010 was a grand slam homer. That's not even debatable. 2011? We'll see, but some of the guys looked pretty good in pre-season. BB's draft record stacks up as well as anyone's over the last decade. That's not even debatable. His overall personnel decisions, which also have been criticized here, have led to a 135-44 record, including post-season, since 2001. Yeah, he's really bad at his job.
    Posted by hardright[/QUOTE]

         For the seventh (7th) time, the purpose of this thread was not to criticize BB. Everybody here understands that his good decision greatly outweigh his bad ones. But, there have been some bad ones...and it seemed to me to be a good topic to generate some good Patriots' football talk, as we slog our way to September 12th. 

         As for the Manning/Leaf thing...you correctly have pointed out that the Colts did their homework in looking into Peyton's off-field make-up...which led to their franchise saving decision to take him over Leaf. On the other hand, the Chargers did not look into Leaf's off-field make-up. The head of their scouting staff at the time has admitted this. It wasn't "luck"...but lack of due diligence by their scouting department, that led to the Leaf disaster. 

         The Colts decision to take Manning over Leaf had nothing to do with "luck". It had everything to do with their scouting department doing their jobs...while the Chargers' scouting department did not.

         As for the 2009 draft, with the exception of Sebastien Vollmer, it's looking more and more like a disaster. Edelman has shown himself tom be a good punt returner, but has yet to distinquish himself as a slot receiver. The Pats passed on Clay Matthews, and chose Brandon Tate over Mike Wallace. Ron Brace and Darius Butler, with each passing day, appear to be busts. Patrick Chung does some nice things at SS, and is a sure tackler. But, he has issues in pass coverage. 

         Sorry...but it is what it is. Ask yourself this...if the Jets had done these things, would you be defending them...or laughing at them?      
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    Good stuff Tex, hows the hangover from all that bourbon? lol.

    A Cb's stats do not tell the tale of how effective he is in a defense. Ask the Raiders and everybody else to look at Nnamde's stats. For you to say Bodden is a failure is an over the top reaction seeking attempt to back up your samuel argument.

    I like how you try and put words in the mouth of anybody you don't agree with.

    I don't think that BB is infallible. He has ticked me off more then once in the past decade starting when he cut my favorite Patriot Lawer Milloy. I thought I would throw up that day.

    I would say I like your cheap slants and 1 liners but in fact they are not very clever. You get ticked when a guy disagrees with you and then take what they said to the extreme.

    I think we are SB contenders along with 4-5 other teams in the league.

    I don't think BB is haunted by many of his decisions.

    I don't think Bradys confidence is shaken because of the 07 SB or the Jets playoff game as you seem to insinuate you have some sort of inside knowledge  LMFAO.

    I think we need help in the safety department and can't for the life of me figure out what BB is doing by letting go of our 2 most seasoned veterans.(with no apparent back up plan)

    I think we should have drafted Costanzo over Solder and I think we should have packaged some picks and gone after Ingram. I wanted edge rushers too but only after d-line help which didn't come until after the draft.

    You keep throwing out desperation insults and I'll keep portraying you for what you really are, a Dan Shaughnessy clone who uses outrageous thread titles and negative opinions to reel people into reading his stuff.


     
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