Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Yes, but you used the word "haunt' for a reason.  The fact is, if that was true, NE wouldn't have had the highest winning% since 2007.
    Posted by RidingWithTheKing[/QUOTE]

         True. But, is making the play-offs the Patriots' goal...or winning a championship?  
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]
    We can lament and discuss any "past" decisions all we want and play the "what if" game, too.  Woulda, Coulda, Shoulda does not change the past and all we can do is hope the present will work out.  I, personally, do not dwell on the past as it is what it is.
     
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    Back at you. Seymour for a mid round first may have been the worst. Pass on Matthews was also mamouth. Trading away a chance to get Inghram may prove the biggest mistake if we don't have a between the tackles runner in the play offs. BB has passed on a lot of running backs and doesn't seem to value them too highly. The GB thing is hard to understand.  Maybe the reason our CB's don't work out so well is the 3/4 and weak pass rush.  Lots of drat day capital wasted on trying to replace  Samuels.  The proof of the drafting mistakes lies in the final retention of draftees.  If Brady had only had a true number one like Randy Moss in his prime every year would have been 2007.  A tribute to BB's coaching genius has been his ability to over come rally poor drafting with brilliant coaching and remain competative...and oh yes he does have Brady...his great equalizer.  If his philosophy had been trading up for quality rather than down for quantity and retaining true studs, Patriot Place might be the home of several mor Lombardi's
     
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    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      I never said that it wasn't catchable...just that it was a difficult chance, and would have been a great play had he made it.      Gary, or somebody...I can't go back and watch any part of that game without getting angry, and sick to my stomach. If you still have the game recorded, do me a favor and go back, and watch that play again. I remember it as a difficult chance...as Asante was trying to catch a ball thrown high and to his left. Please let me know if I'm wrong. 
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    I thought that interception was a " gimmee ' but still the most glaring was Reche Caldwells drop vs the Colts in the Championship game was worse.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    How long did it take the dynasty teams to win again after turning over their rosters (Packers 60's, Dolphins 70's, Steelers late 70's, Niners 80's  & Cowboy's in the early 90's)...Rebuilding to a championship level is part of the deal after dominating the game over 3 to 5 year stretches...

    Like it or not the Pat's IMHO the Pat's personnel issues a re a symtom of a greater problem and that is since adopting their current finesse offense and bend but break defensive phylosohpies, they have but 1 Super Bowl appearance to show for it and almost won that one....if not for a couple of plays for the ages...

    My point is only that the style you plays dictates personnal decisions. The New England Patriots that won 3 Superbowls did so with a ball control offense and a opportunistic stingy red zone defense...That on both sides of the ball played a very physical, punch you in the mouth style. Those teams once given leads would grind teams to death in the forth quarter with Clock killin Cory Dillion and Atwain and a cloud of dust Smith before him....

    To that end I would say the fall of the empire started with allowing #24 Ty Law to walk and then after him was guys like Danial Graham, perhaps the best run blocking tightend to ever pull a pats jersey over his pads...both signaled the end of championship football being played in New England and in came the new finesse spread offense and the bend but don't break defense...both of which cost us the 2007 championship and the 2006 title game vs the Colts...when we couldn't run the ball and kill the clock with leads late in both games...

     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]How long did it take the dynasty teams to win again after turning over their rosters (Packers 60's, Dolphins 70's, Steelers late 70's, Niners 80's  & Cowboy's in the early 90's)...Rebuilding to a championship level is part of the deal after dominating the game over 3 to 5 year stretches... Like it or not the Pat's IMHO the Pat's personnel issues a re a symtom of a greater problem and that is since adopting their current finesse offense and bend but break defensive phylosohpies, they have but 1 Super Bowl appearance to show for it and almost won that one....if not for a couple of plays for the ages... My point is only that the style you plays dictates personnal decisions. The New England Patriots that won 3 Superbowls did so with a ball control offense and a opportunistic stingy red zone defense...That on both sides of the ball played a very physical, punch you in the mouth style. Those teams once given leads would grind teams to death in the forth quarter with Clock killin Cory Dillion and Atwain and a cloud of dust Smith before him.... To that end I would say the fall of the empire started with allowing #24 Ty Law to walk and then after him was guys like Danial Graham, perhaps the best run blocking tightend to ever pull a pats jersey over his pads...both signaled the end of championship football being played in New England and in came the new finesse spread offense and the bend but don't break defense...both of which cost us the 2007 championship and the 2006 title game vs the Colts...when we couldn't run the ball and kill the clock with leads late in both games...
    Posted by Beantowne[/QUOTE]

         The imposition of the Polian Passing Rules changed the game from football to "passball"...and effected the way teams built their rosters.

         I disagree with your point that letting Ty Law go was a mistake. The Pats won a SB without him in 2004. Entering 2005, the then 31 year olb CB had lost a step, yet still wanted huge money. The Pats' didn't fail to win a SB in 2005 or 2006 because he wasn't around.

         As for 2006, a slew of untimely injuries to the defense, and an extremely biased officiating crew cost the Pats the Pats another SB title. The defense failed to hold a 4 point lead with 2:13 to play in the 4th quarter, and allowed Goober Manning to march his team on 83 yards for the game-winning TD. Failure to run out the clock had nothing to do with that SB loss. That final drive, along with some questionable coaching decisions and a cowardly performance by the Pats' OL, cost the team the title that year.

         The bottom line is that, but for some bad calls and a couple of miraculous plays, we wouldn't be having this conversation...as the Pats would have won 5 SB championships in seven (7) years.         
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]   I am surprised to hear people would have willingly paid 60 mill for Samuel(1 single cb who at best takes away 1 single player on offense) it is not in this teams history to do so. QB's get paid, Dominant d-linemen like Seymour, Warren, and Wilfork get paid. Belichick nor Pioli broke the bank for any single player who felt they out performed the contract. Ask Ty Law and Lawer Milloy about this.
     
    RESPONSE: Both Ty Law and Lawyer Milloy were aging veterans on the downside of their careers...when they wanted to get paid big dollars. Law was 31, and the Pats had just won a SB without him. Milloy was 29, coming off a poor season. Samuel was in his prime. Plus the Pats had two chances to get a deal done...in 2006 and 2007. Instead, they franchised him, and paid him huge dollars. In retrospect, they would have been better off had they extended him after the 2006 season. 

    I agree with the above poster as well, Samuel may add up the INT's in a good defense but it is telling that the Eagles felt compelled to go after 2 guys that play the same position and give up so much to get them.
     
    RESPONSE: Again...the Eagles had no one to pair with Samuel, until they snookered the Cardinals to give up CB Rodgers-Cromartie and a second round pick for reserve QB, Kevin Kolb. Then, surprisingly, Asomugha came on their radar. The plan was, and likely still is, to sign Asomugha, and then trade Samuel...thereby upgrading the position. But, that doesn't mean that Samuel isn't a good CB...he's just not as good as Asomugha and Revis. You also have conveniently failed to mention that Samuel earned pro-bowl honors three years in a row with Philly: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asante_Samuel 

    For the record I do think BB and staff planned poorly with Samuel. They didn't have a replacement on the roster and had already franchised him once so they had to know they would let him walk. I think it was a mistake not to have somebody ready but I think it would have more of a mistake to give the 4rth rounder 60 million and cripple your team for the next few years.

    RESPONSE: Again, in retrospect, they should have signed him to an extension after the 2006 season.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]A Cb's stats do not tell the tale of how effective he is in a defense. Ask the Raiders and everybody else to look at Nnamde's stats.
     
    RESPONSE: LOL!!! I guess that two all-pro selections and three pro-bowl selections in three straight years in Philly isn't good enough for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asante_Samuel  

    For you to say Bodden is a failure is an over the top reaction seeking attempt to back up your samuel argument.
     
    RESPONSE: AGAIN...the Pats wasted two second round picks, and paid Ron Springs, Delta O'Neal, and Bodden to fill Asante's shoes. None of these guys could. After a mediocre year for the Pats in 2009, they were nonetheless so desperate as to offer him a boig dollar extension. Bodden has been hurt ever since. Meanwhile, please review what Samuel has accomplished over the same period: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asante_Samuel

    I like how you try and put words in the mouth of anybody you don't agree with.
     
    RESPONSE: LOL!!! What a hypocrite!! It is you who have attempted to put words in my mouth by claiming that I said that the loss of SB42 caused Tom Brady's knee injury...and other nonsensical comments. Please point out to us, using facts, not your koolaid driven opinions, concerning how the Pats have not missed Samuel at all, due to the presence of the great Leigh Bodden:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leigh_Bodden

    I don't think that BB is infallible. He has ticked me off more then once in the past decade starting when he cut my favorite Patriot Lawer Milloy. I thought I would throw up that day.
     
    RESPONSE: An unpopular move when made...but a correct one. BB upgraded the position with Rodney Harrison, and saved a ton of cap space to boot. 

    I would say I like your cheap slants and 1 liners but in fact they are not very clever. You get ticked when a guy disagrees with you and then take what they said to the extreme.
     
    RESPONSE: Again...what a hypocrite...LOL!!!  

    I think we are SB contenders along with 4-5 other teams in the league. I don't think BB is haunted by many of his decisions.
     
    RESPONSE: Who said anything about BB being personally haunted by his decisions? But, there's no question that the team has suffered from the expenditure of great resources to replace Samuel, the loss of three pro-bowl caliber CB seasons from Samuel, not getting the badly sought after pass-rusher in Clay Matthews, and passing up a legitimate deep threat WR in Mike Wallace, for the failed Brandon Tate. Do you, in your subjective world, deny these things?

    I don't think Bradys confidence is shaken because of the 07 SB or the Jets playoff game as you seem to insinuate you have some sort of inside knowledge  LMFAO.
     
    RESPONSE: And you have knowledge that just the opposite is true?? It's called my opinion...based on the fact that the Pats' haven't won a playoff game since the SB loss, and Brady's poor play in the two playoff games since that SB loss. What's your opinion based on??  

    I think we need help in the safety department and can't for the life of me figure out what BB is doing by letting go of our 2 most seasoned veterans.(with no apparent back up plan)
     
    RESPONSE: Gee...I thought BB was infallible?? He cut Meriweather because he wasn't producing, both in practice, and in games. If that's the case, what good is he? The Pats had the worst pass defense in the NFL last season. So...what does BB have to lose by bringing in some new blood?

    I think we should have drafted Costanzo over Solder and I think we should have packaged some picks and gone after Ingram.
     
    RESPONSE: I completely disagree. Solder has the potential to develop into a pro-bowl caliber LT. Though Castonzo is currently a more experienced, more polished player...he doesn't have the upside that Solder does.
         The Pats could have had Ingram with their 28th overall pick. Therefore, why are you saying that it was necessary to package picks to get him?
         I couldn't disagree with you more about Ingram. He was a part-time RB at Alabama, who sustained a knee injury in college. I would have chastized BB if he had decided to waste the 28th overall pick on a RB. The choice should have come down to taking DE Muhammad Wilkerson at #28, or trading down, as BB did, for the Saints 56th overall pick, and their #1 pick next season. Based on what I've seen from Stevan Ridley, BJGE, Danny Woodhead, and Shane Vereen, the Pats have a good stable of RBs.    
     

    I wanted edge rushers too but only after d-line help which didn't come until after the draft.
     
    RESPONSE: The failure of Leigh Bodden, Brandon Meriweather, Jonathan Wilhite, Terrence Wheatly, and Darius Butler to produce, caused BB to select DB Ras-I Dowling...rather than take a flier on DE/OLB types, Brooks Reed and Jabal Sheard. 

    You keep throwing out desperation insults and I'll keep portraying you for what you really are, a Dan Shaughnessy clone who uses outrageous thread titles and negative opinions to reel people into reading his stuff.

    RESPONSE: Me throwing out "desperation insults?? Again...what a hypocrite...LOL!!!
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    lol "mathews wouldnt have fit the pat scheme" ...oh ya so just pass on the best sacker in the nfl cuz he doesnt "fit your scheme"
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots



    Oh ok I withdraw, you win. The following facts must be true because of your opinions:

    1:Brady has lost confidence because of the Jets playoff loss, oh and the Giants playoff loss.

    2:Belichick makes personnel decisions that haunt him(and the team) to this day.(I bet he takes ambien to sleep at night, his 5 SB rings must be uncomfortable)

    3:Bodden is a failure.

    4:Our offense line is terrible and the middle of the o-line is responsible for our last 3 playoff losses.

    5:Our secondary is terrible but we would have won SB's in your opinion had we given in to Asante Samuels demands.

    6:Oh and this priceless gem from our discussion last year......Brady's knee injury was a result of him being distracted. You said you could tell by the way he carried himself onto the field in week 1 against the Chiefs.(HAAAAAAAAAA) sorry but that really is funny.(BTW don't you go into your history editing those statements) I already printed them out and made copies!!!!!J/K dude.


    Tell me how I have embellished any of these opinions by you and I will gladly apologize.

    One last serious question to you and I will end our friendly:) debate. Does every QB who lost a playoff game or Super Bowl lose confidence or in your expert opinion is it only Tom Brady? I would like to know so when I place my wagers at the book I know which guys to stay away from. Thanks for your insight.

    Ahhhh shucks one more thing, would you please elaborate on how it was you could tell Brady has lost confidence from the Jets game? I am dying to know what the criteria is for QBs who have lost confidence.

    Thanks again big fella.


     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Oh ok I withdraw, you win. The following facts must be true because of your opinions: 1: Brady has lost confidence because of the Jets playoff loss, oh and the Giants playoff loss. 2: Belichick makes personnel decisions that haunt him(and the team) to this day.(I bet he takes ambien to sleep at night, his 5 SB rings must be uncomfortable) 3: Bodden is a failure. 4: Our offense line is terrible and the middle of the o-line is responsible for our last 3 playoff losses. 5: Our secondary is terrible but we would have won SB's in your opinion had we given in to Asante Samuels demands. 6: Oh and this priceless gem from our discussion last year......Brady's knee injury was a result of him being distracted. You said you could tell by the way he carried himself onto the field in week 1 against the Chiefs.(HAAAAAAAAAA) sorry but that really is funny.(BTW don't you go into your history editing those statements) I already printed them out and made copies!!!!!J/K dude. Tell me how I have embellished any of these opinions by you and I will gladly apologize. One last serious question to you and I will end our friendly:) debate. Does every QB who lost a playoff game or Super Bowl lose confidence or in your expert opinion is it only Tom Brady? I would like to know so when I place my wagers at the book I know which guys to stay away from. Thanks for your insight. Ahhhh shucks one more thing, would you please elaborate on how it was you could tell Brady has lost confidence from the Jets game? I am dying to know what the criteria is for QBs who have lost confidence. Thanks again big fella.
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

         Yawn!! Once again...misrepresenting and misquoting my positions. UD 6 has taught you well...LOL!!! I've already have pointed out how you have misrepresented and misquoted me above...not that it matters to a hypocrite like you. 

         I can't help but notice how you dodged my questions in my last post, Glass Joe. Why is that? Still waiting for a response, Fragile One.    
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]Two worst ones are Maroney and Chad Jackson. they cost us two Super Bowls. Any running back in that draft (Joseph Addai, Maurice Jones Drew, DeAngelo Williams or Leon Washington) would have worked. Aslo any receiver (Brandon Marshall or Jennings or Santonio Holmes( he was gone in the first round would have helped. That year's draft was the most I regret.
    Posted by Mirage123[/QUOTE]

    EXACTLY,  these drafts COST the Patriots another SB.  These yahoos are driving me crazy.
     
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    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Exactly again  -  how many freaking draft picks have they wasted on cornerbacks to replace Samuel.  It's unbelievable.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      Yawn!! Once again...misrepresenting and misquoting my positions. UD 6 has taught you well...LOL!!! I've already have pointed out how you have misrepresented and misquoted me above...not that it matters to a hypocrite like you.       I can't help but notice how you dodged my questions in my last post, Glass Joe. Why is that? Still waiting for a response, Fragile One.    
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]


    "Would you please elaborate on how you could tell Brady has lost confidence from the Jets game? I am dying to know what the criteria is for QBs who have lost confidence."

    Answer this and I will answer whatever question you think is pertinent to this conversation.

    In the words of Mike Mcdermott "Cause I can go on busting you up all night."
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots :      There are four players in particular to watch, in relation to the Pats' 2011 draft decisions. They are Muhammad Wilkerson, Jabal Sheard, Brooks Reed, and Anthony Castonzo: 1.) Wilkerson: Forget Ingram. I thought that BB did the right thing, trading the pick for the Saints' 56th overall pick, and their #1 pick in 2012. But, if the Pats had kept the pick, Wilkerson was the guy that the Pats likely would have selected at #28. He's a mountain of a man...a classic 3-4 DE, who can also line-up in a 4-3 at DT. Because he played against inferior competition in college (played at Temple), he was a late first round pick. After the Pats passed on him, he was selected by the Jets...and will be starting for them on their DL this season. If he turns into a stud...BB will be licking himself: http://www.nj.com/jets/index.ssf/2011/08/rex_ryan_says_jets_first-round.html 2.) Sheard: The Pats passed on this Big East pass-rushung beast in order to select Ras-I Dowling at #33. Dowling can play, if he can stay healthy. Sheard was selected in the second round by the Cleveland Browns; 3.) Brooks Reed: Another OLB/DE type, who the Pats passed on for Dowling. He was selected in the second round by the Houston Texans; 4.) Castonzo: The Pats liked Nate Solder potential and athleticism over the more polished Castonzo. Castonzo will be starting at LT for the hated Colts this year...trying to save Peyton Manning's neck.    
    Posted by TexasPat3[/QUOTE]

    Proves my theory that when it comes to the early rounds, BB seems to be overmatched, forgets what to do, or has design for the greatest NFL team EVER! (Only it'll be created at some time in the future.) He stockpiles picks for what? Drafting to need? Or, trading to get more picks in FUTURE drafts! I'm tired of it. No big mystery that they haven't had a pass rush sing Bush 41 was in eh White House, so what have they done over the past few years?

    If you hadn't noticed, I purposedly refused to comment on any of the Pats draft picks, or on any draft thread. It's getting to be a yearly disappointment that when there is a need, and a very good player available, he'll trade it away. I only hope that my 2 yr old grandson see the fruits of this "trading" scheme before he leaves high school. Sure, they'll win more than they lose, and will continually try to fill holes with older players. But, I fear that with this ongoing drafting strategy, that's all they'll be.
     
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    Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Five Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots : Proves my theory that when it comes to the early rounds, BB seems to be overmatched, forgets what to do, or has design for the greatest NFL team EVER! (Only it'll be created at some time in the future.) He stockpiles picks for what? Drafting to need? Or, trading to get more picks in FUTURE drafts! I'm tired of it. No big mystery that they haven't had a pass rush sing Bush 41 was in eh White House, so what have they done over the past few years? If you hadn't noticed, I purposedly refused to comment on any of the Pats draft picks, or on any draft thread. It's getting to be a yearly disappointment that when there is a need, and a very good player available, he'll trade it away. I only hope that my 2 yr old grandson see the fruits of this "trading" scheme before he leaves high school. Sure, they'll win more than they lose, and will continually try to fill holes with older players. But, I fear that with this ongoing drafting strategy, that's all they'll be.
    Posted by AZPAT[/QUOTE]

    Wow somehow we have not noticed this. If only I had realized you had not commented on Belichicks failure in the draft, I would have known not to bother rooting for success this season.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    TC - Texas Pat's skin is toooooo thin to directly address a point when he's been had.  With me he throws out the "whatever you say, dogg" or "enough of the lies, misdirections, etc." or some other awful deflection. 

    Good luck getting a straight answer.
     
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    Re: Six Personnel Errors That Haunt the Patriots

    wow how did we end up here. Look around you how many teams you can say are successful and persistent? PATs, Steelers, Colts and Ravens. You can add jets to 2 year wonders thats it in AFC. In NFC its all screwed up any way, so when you say 6 personeel decisions haunt PATs in last GOD 12 years we can live with that, whatever it may be. I cant get get the season tickets for last 6 years and cant afford it anyway. I cant even get regular season tickets so business wise PATs are all right. I can go to any game i want for Jets, bills or Miami( i just read it in papers). 

     

     
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