Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    I would have played the Stones versus the Beatles angle since they never ripped off James Brown,Sly Stone, Parliment, Curtis Mayfield, Lakeside etc....or perhaps The Clash vs prog rock (Pink Floyd, Led Zep, but I guess he has to stay as current as he can with his pop culture references. Biggie and Tupac does have a sudden death/overtime ring to it and like the Brady/Manning rivalry it will be better evaluated when their careers are over unless Manning has as many comebacks as Tupac or Favre.
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    And yet none of those stats take into comparison or account the amount of times a WR is in fact open for a QB to throw toward.

    Stating that anyone in the NL, squash the Brady/Manning debate, has had more overall talent over the decade than Manning is patently ludicrous.\

    Furthermore, the mere fact that that this stat completely disengages QB stats away fro TD/INT as in big plays versus big mistakes misses the spot where Brady simply wipes the floor with Manning. As it isn't even close. Manning is a pick six waiting to happen. The track record is there for all to see.

    The rest is slicing and dicing by more Manning fanboys to justify why Brady is surpassing his records slowly but surely and is on track to win more and more. In the end, after all the Simmons-esque (as I noted myself, these accolades tend to be cyclical) flip flop based on what you have done for me lately, will end in Brady;s favor ... by a large Margin ... we have already seen this play out... and Montana ended beating Marino by a landslide. As he should have.

    It is, simply, why Brady is a better rated QB than Manning. Period. 

    95.3 vs 94. Despite playing outdoors with less talent. Insist all you want ... swap Ben Watson and Reche Caldwell, Doug Gabriel for Dallas Clark , Wayne and Marvn Harrison, even for that one year, and those stats normalize. 

    The INT/TD probably slips even further into TBs favor in that instance. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]Here are some items to chew on.  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=5988263 Please note that he thinks Manning is the better QB but gives the nod to Brady for how well he is playing at this time.  http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/examining-qb-yards-after-catch.html Here's another that shows how much Brady has relied on his receivers since 06 (sans 08) when the common refrain is that Manning is the one with the receivers. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    Note how he also says how this postseason plays out will end end up making Brady the best QB over Manning by Scouts INc, just like he was in 2008. Manning earned that back from Scouts inc after a year of Brady's absence. So it took a cataclysmic knee injury for pro scouts to change their tune that Brady is better -- it took two seasons of Brady playing to earn that back. The writing is on eht wall ... unless Manning can re-up with another two hall of fame WRs ... Brady is going to continue to jog away ... because he is a better overall football player with better awareness and athletic ability. 


    For me it is academic... they both make great reads, great throws, Brady isn't afraid to get hit, delivers the ball in tighter spots under pressure, and extends plays much longer sometimes taking a sack other times making a TD, but rarely, rarely loosing a cheap gift pick-6 that Manning has practically trademarked ... ok, leases the trademark on from Fayre. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    The thing I hate about how Brady is percieved is if he doesn't win it all or break any records he's not in the conversation (Brees, Manning, Rivers) get the pub. Doesn't the guy deserve to "only" throw for 4000 plus yards and 28 td's while playing hurt and still make it to the playoffs, with a depleted team, before losing to Baltimore and not get thought of as a player that is not at or near the top? He should be considered the best or second best every year based off his resume...unless he gets another major injury.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]Here are some items to chew on.  http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/news/story?id=5988263 Please note that he thinks Manning is the better QB but gives the nod to Brady for how well he is playing at this time.  http://community.advancednflstats.com/2010/12/examining-qb-yards-after-catch.html Here's another that shows how much Brady has relied on his receivers since 06 (sans 08) when the common refrain is that Manning is the one with the receivers. 
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]
    UD...  why keep perpetuating a discussion that will never have a satisfactory resolution for all?  There will NEVER be concensus about who is better.  As many times you can put articles here that say Manning, there can be as many that point to Brady.  When all is said and done, both are near the top.  You'll like yours and we'll like ours.  'nuff said!
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from kildog. Show kildog's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    Unitas or Starr?  Still haven't resolved that one.  Now Brady vs. Manning. 
    Now that Brady is done throwing the deep ball to pacify Moss he is looking like his old self;  deke and dunk!  Very accurate.  Very aggressive.  Surgical.  Liking him a lot these days. 
    I gotta admit I loved watching the Jets game last year when they gave Manning a short field in the 3d quarter.  Manning just carved them up and the game went out  of the Jets hands and the title went with it. 
    I'm impressed with both of these guys.  I'm just glad we have home field advantage throughout the playoffs so if we have to meet the Colts Pats have an edge.  
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from jedinate. Show jedinate's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    Brady's stats will never surpass Mannings, BUT they have become impressive enough to help the stat struck admit his talent.

    When it's all said and done, I'll take his multiple rings and "almost amazing" stats over Manning's AMAZING!! stats and one ring.

    It's not a cop-out to say winning is all that matters. It is all that matters.

    Proof? I'll take 2001's stats and outcome over 2007's stats and outcome,every time.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    This is not a debate. If you put a gun to most sports fans heads and ask which QB they take in order to survive they say Tom Brady. As Zbellino said above, the td to interception ratio is probably the most important stat for big game Qbs. In this scenario(Brady vs Manning or anybody else for that matter) It is not even close.

    This coupled with the fact Brady played half of his career in a place that gets dark at 3:30 in the afternoon and you have a landslide conclusion.

    Anyway, can anybody tell me how Manning's 04 year had him with a higher qb rating then Brady's 07 year??

    Brady had more yard/att, more yards, more tds, and 5 less interceptions, What gives?
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from chrisakawoody. Show chrisakawoody's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]I'll simply say this.  The board last year was agreeing that Manning was better, but a poor Manning 3 game stretch, a brady resurgence, a little local koolaid, and the wind blowing in a different direction has managed to make the pats bandwagon loud and proud once again.  Have at it boys.  I posted a link on another thread about Scouts inc ranking different player groups of every playoff team then aggregating those.  They ranked the colts team 11 of 12 with the only grouping better than 8 being QB.  The pats on the other hand ranked 2.  Once again, manning succeeds with little help.  That's all you need to know.
    Posted by UD6[/QUOTE]

    What a bunch of nonsense from you.

    A) We - me included - thought last year that Manning was then the better QB AT THE TIME, and it appearedthat it would continue as a direct result from Brady's knee injury. I don't recall any of us claiming or admitting Manning had been better than Brady at any time before last year, though, or overall. Obviously, things have changed.  A lot.

    B) Yeah, we all admit that your Colts team doesn't have the talent it had two years ago or earlier.  But then, the Pats have taken scrubs off the street and made them into players.  You treat that like a liability, as if Brady doesn't deserve credit because the team is playing well.  You completely discount why the team is playing great: In part because their QB is playing the best ever and inspires them to raise their game. Basically, Brady has done better with his under-rated talent than has your Manning.  That's just more proof that Manning is not as good as Brady.  Almost half of the Pats' active roster on any given game day are undrafted free agent players.  Let that sink in. How many undrafted F/As are on the Colts?

    C)Manning has almost always been surrounded by stars. Brady? Good players, but not really stars, save for Dillon and Moss, the latter ironically holding Brady back last year and early this year. You like to point out that Manning has been to the Pro-Bowl more than Brady. Just look at all the Pro-Bowl selections over the past 10 years from the Colts, vs. those from the Pats. That's using your own method of ranking quality, thrown right back in your face. Yet Brady has the better career stats, then and now.

    D) You don't seem like you read this piece all the way through.  The core of it was facts, facts, facts, facts and more facts.  The writer never claimed Brady was the better or best.  But the facts and the stats he alights are overwhelming at this point...beyond rings...beyond wins...beyond MVPs.  Just right down to the nitty-gritty, like QB rating, ball protection, head-to-head wins.  And if you add the vague intangibles, Brady looks even better. Outdoors. Inclement. Coming off a severe knee injury. Yet still better.

    Underoos, the only homer here is you. You have no leg upon which to stand at this point.  You are down on the floor, squirming about, claiming you are an expert tap dancer.  What a fool!



     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from chrisakawoody. Show chrisakawoody's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    By the way, for you fans claiming that Manning wins the stats race, have you read the whole article? Or relevant ones?  Have you dug into NFL.com?  Brady excels in almost all stats. There are very few stats in which Manning leads that are not improved (for the time being) because Manning has played more seasons and more games and has not yet been majorly injured.  For actual performance, Brady sweeps the floor with Manning. Like Z wrote, "it not even close." That's what is so nutty about Underoos lack of admission to the realities.  And again, in cold, wet, windy, shadowy, snowy conditions.

    Rusty, great find. This is without a doubt the most comprehensive article I have read on the subject. In an age of wham-bam-thank-you-ma'am reporting, this guy really did a ton of work to get it right and then let the reader figure it out for himself/herself. That's great journalism. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from ccnsd. Show ccnsd's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

       It's more than obvious that UD didn't actually bother to read the article. It is about as neutral a comparison as you can get. He not only complimented both Qb's he also had Brady heaping praise on Manning like he always does. Iv'e never seen a football player more comfortable in their own skin or place in history as Brady is. Brady does not care about any quarterback hierarchy like the media does. He just wants to win.
         UD's biggest nightmare is Brady winning another Superbowl because Brady would then tie Montana for four and only fools would ever claim they would prefer the quarterback who only won one superbowl to the one who won four. Trust me, even if Brady wins Five superbowls UD won't admit what every unbiased fan would admit. To fans like him superbowls are inconsequential to greatness. When Brady gets rings it's because of his team or coach, but Manning's superbowl ring is proof that Manning is great. 
        If Manning ends up with as many superbowl rings as Brady, then we can quibble over YAC or bad weather and interception percentages, but until then I prefer the winningest quarterback ever (by %) with 3 superbowl rings than the one with more pro bowls. I route for the Patriots to win, not pro bowl appearences. That crap is for Charger fans and UD.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from LatenightOwl. Show LatenightOwl's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    This argument is as old as Russell vs. Chamberlin

    Honestly, without having a stake in the debate, think about why one is lauded over the other yet the statistics may prove otherwise. Take a step back as a fan for just a minute.

    Perception!! 

    Payton Manning (not of his own doing or saying) was a son of a former NFL player, wasa  star in college, and made an immediate impact as a savior franchise player.  He was given the keys to the car from day one, the media transferred their storylines from college to the pros. The recognition was swifter and more complete.

    Tom Brady (by a little bit of luck) fell to a team that seemingly did not NEED a quarterback when he was drafted in the 6th round. Hell, he wasn't even fully starting during his college career.  He was given the keys to the car when Drew went down in Brady's 2nd year! The recognition took much longer to gel in the national public eye. He was a back-up done good.

    Neither man is what the national perception says they are.  Payton has been the focal point of a NFL since he was drafted. He has played up to his potential, individually, and ultimately won the championship in due time.  No matter how he got there, there was a faction of Payton lovers who were invested in his career evolution.  Tom, became a household name after winning SB 36. His potential was unknown at the time simply because the Patriots were a surprise winner.  Once the team got some respect by playing consistent, Brady's star rose to meet Mannings.  This is NOT to say Manning was better or Brady wasn't as good; simply the national view of these two was that Tom made himself to be one of the best and Payton was already there.

    What bothers me is that many fans from all walks of life, want to dry the paint of history as they are laying the oils on the canvas!!  We think Tom Brady will be considered the best ever, and we are probably right. But history and non-local intense viewership takes time to be cultivated.  Brady does not win with an amazing arm or a pedigree of great expectations.  He just wins games.  Unfortunately, there are "stat hoars" who can't get by black and white comparisons. (Hell, some of you are just as guilty in other debates!!) 

    History will be kind on Tom Brady, as it has been on Joe Montana.  Some of you young folks may not realize that Mr. Montana was questioned in the mid-80s if he could regain his form when SF lost 3 straight playoff games from 1985-87.  Funny that his 2 greatest seasons came in 1988 and 1989.  That is where his legend was born!! not the 4 Super Bowl wins.  You see... it takes time for the masterpiece to be made. More years to perfect the image that will forever last!

    Let the argument rage while Manning and Brady still play. Just don't expect Brady to be given a title while he is still active.  They are both deserving to be mentioned in the greatest QBs of all time.  Let the next decade play out.  You will see that the world will look back at the early 21st century as the golden era of QBs led by Tom Brady and Payton Manning... in that order!
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from futbal. Show futbal's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    First, I loved the article and consider it sports journalism at its best.  Second, what I most took away from it were the quotes from Brady about not caring to reflect but always looking forward; the mind of a champion. Also, the sense of fraternity among quarterbacks was insiteful. Lastly, the Beatles viewed the Beach Boys as their creative rivals, although I would say that Bob Dylan was the greatest and most influential (John's phrasing, like most pop singers eventually at least partly imitated his and of course, Dylan introduced the Beatles to Dr. Robert). The point on pop music competition is that the competitive process makes the actors better whether in the creative arts or football. I'll close with  a film based reference by saying that the outcome of the Brady-Manning debate perhaps is not written, isn't that why we stay tuned?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from lexlib. Show lexlib's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    article was decent. the cartoon was nice as well. anyway, speaking of cartoons, does anyone still have any pic of the espn cartoon which featured coach, brady, welker, wilfork, lawfirm? it was released the week we were playing the packers i think.  
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from p-mike. Show p-mike's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)


    I'm pretty sure somebody around here has that picture as their avatar.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from miSOXfan. Show miSOXfan's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]. Anyway, can anybody tell me how Manning's 04 year had him with a higher qb rating then Brady's 07 year?? Brady had more yard/att, more yards, more tds, and 5 less interceptions, What gives?
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]

    Manning had a higher Yds/Att, 9.2 in 2004 vs. 8.3 for Brady in '07, and his TD% was higher, 9.86% vs. 8.65%.  These more than offset Brady's higher completion percentage, 68.9% vs. 67.6%, and better int%, 1.38% vs. 2.01%.  Total yards alone is not a factor in the calculation, i.e. one could have higher total yards but a lower passer rating.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from user_1947769. Show user_1947769's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    Here's my worry : this debate changes dramatically in the next month if Manning takes the Colts to the Superbowl and wins. Then it's Brady 3 rings, Manning 2 rings; Manning takes a bunch of unknowns on his heroic shoulders; Colts become first team in forever to lose Superbowl one year and return next year to win .... yada, yada, yada. Can anyone say with any degree of assuredness that this is not possible? Exactly.

    This is why I am rooting this one time for the Jets tonight ... I do not want to live through the nightmare I have just described.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from anonymis. Show anonymis's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    I don't see what the big deal is.  Both are good quarterbacks. Obviously, the fans from competing camps will say their QB is better - and the media will throw fuel on that fire.

    Here's another way to look at things, if Brady never existed (and eliminating new QBs like Flacco, Rogers from the past 4-5 years), who would BB want as his QB for the Patriots?

    I also find it ironic, that some posters slam ESPN because of their slant against the Patriots - and then turn around and laud ESPN for this article.


     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    There is nothing less skillful about a swing pas, and given  the troubles  most QBs have executing them, Brady and Brees are the best, Rivers is terrible for instance, they are actually more difficult than throwing a 15 yard in, and WAY more difficult than 10-15 yd comebacks that Manning throws so often.

    The field is 53.3 yards wide, a swing pass is between 15-20 yards and to get YAC, the QB needs to hit the WR/RB in stride.  a 10 yard comeback could result in 0 YAC, thus giving all the credit to the QB ... when in fact he threw a pattern that relies on how well the WR can fake out the defender as opposed to how well timed the QB's release actually is. 

    A five yard gain on a swing can be a much, much harder throw, generate half the yards, more YAC, thus (by this silly, and I emphasize silly because it is ignorant of how the position is actually played) being 'easier.'

    In either scenario, the WR is responsible for the separation, one is before the catch the other after the catch. In either scenario the QB needs to get it there through about 15 yards of air. Except in a simple in or comeback, the QB can simply plant and drive, without having to swing his body over.

    Mechanically speaking...a short pas to an RB swinging is more difficult than many, many perimeter throws. 

    Lastly, if they are so easy, then why is Manning throwing 45 INTs over their last three complete seasons to Brady's 25? That is a 20 INT surplus. Maybe he should check down more often and stop throwing pick 6's to end games for his team?

    But Manning has never figured out how to take what a defense gives him. The entire Colts offense would be more effective if they utilized their backfield more often instead of constantly going for the comebacks, slant, and in/outs.

    Lastly, Manning and Brady are almost always neck and neck in YAC, except this season. Losing the colts offensive MVP Dallas Clark surely hurt them in that regard, because he is the one who take the small passes and breaks them for them.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady) : Manning had a higher Yds/Att, 9.2 in 2004 vs. 8.3 for Brady in '07, and his TD% was higher, 9.86% vs. 8.65%.  These more than offset Brady's higher completion percentage, 68.9% vs. 67.6%, and better int%, 1.38% vs. 2.01%.  Total yards alone is not a factor in the calculation, i.e. one could have higher total yards but a lower passer rating.
    Posted by miSOXfan[/QUOTE]


    If your numbers were correct I would agree with you. Brady had a 9.4 y/att in 07 compared with Mannings 9.2 in 04. Brady beat him in almost every category??? I appreciate you responding but your wrong.

    Can anybody else tell me how PM 04 year gave him the highest QB rating in NFL history? Brady's year was better not only statistically but in the win/loss column(yes I realize win/loss has nothing to do with qb rating)
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from LatenightOwl. Show LatenightOwl's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    True Champ:  does it really matter??  Does the fact that Manning has a better rating take away what Brady did in '07??  Are you in dire need to have the QB rating owned by a Patriot to feel validated by your choice of Brady over Manning?

    Do the formula yourself. If you don't like it, ask for an appeal by the NFL.

    good luck to ya!
     
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  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from miSOXfan. Show miSOXfan's posts

    Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady)

    In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady):
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Solid New Simmons Piece (Manning vs Brady) : If your numbers were correct I would agree with you. Brady had a 9.4 y/att in 07 compared with Mannings 9.2 in 04. Brady beat him in almost every category??? I appreciate you responding but your wrong. Can anybody else tell me how PM 04 year gave him the highest QB rating in NFL history? Brady's year was better not only statistically but in the win/loss column(yes I realize win/loss has nothing to do with qb rating)
    Posted by TrueChamp[/QUOTE]


    Brady had 8.3 yards per attempt in 07.  Look it up.  4806 / 578 = 8.3.


     

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