SOURCES confirmed PATS still have $14m left somehow to spend.. i see a megastar coming thru those doors before training camp!

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  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    ALERT: SALARY CAP MISINFORMATION ABOUNDS!

    $3 mil for draft picks, $6 mil for draft picks, say what? Where do you people get your information?

    The allocation for draft picks really has very little to do with the salary cap. What they need to "allocate" at the draft is the rookie minimum salary times 5 draft picks, which is roughly $2 mil. plus what the rookie wage scale calls for in bonus money, which will be another $1 mil or so. So about $3 mil.

    But here's the deal, none of those rookie salaries count against the salary cap! Not now anyway. Only the top 51 contracts are counted against the cap until the season starts. By definition, rookie minimum salaries will not be counted because they won't crack the top 51.

    The only part that will count against the current cap is the first year bonus amortization allocated by the NFL, which in the Patriots case will be more or less $1 mil.

    So the draft has almost no bearing whatsoever on their current salary cap. They can spend every dime (except for $1 mil) on free agents if they choose to.  However, when the season rolls around all salaries and bonus amortizations of rostered players, plus dead money count. That's when the full $3 mil of the draft picks will count (if they all make the team).

     

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimmytantric. Show jimmytantric's posts

    In response to jri37's comment:

    what is up with this posting function???




    Did it to me yesterday-  you hit post button and POOF-Nothing-- then you find out it went thru-AFTER you hit it 2-3 times-silly.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    In response to BostonProSportsLover's comment:

     

    ethinks the pats will do a draft day deal with repositionings for sanders. perhaps give them our one for sanders and a 2 and 4 pick.

     



    that would suck.

     

    wed lose out on a pass rusher in rd 1. and wouldnt be able to go for instance, carradine and da rick rogers (1-2)

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    no superstars are walking through that door Commie. 

    We'll be lucky to get a few more pew pew platter type guys at this point...

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ALERT: SALARY CAP MISINFORMATION ABOUNDS!

    $3 mil for draft picks, $6 mil for draft picks, say what? Where do you people get your information?

    The allocation for draft picks really has very little to do with the salary cap. What they need to "allocate" at the draft is the rookie minimum salary times 5 draft picks, which is roughly $2 mil. plus what the rookie wage scale calls for in bonus money, which will be another $1 mil or so. So about $3 mil.

    But here's the deal, none of those rookie salaries count against the salary cap! Not now anyway. Only the top 51 contracts are counted against the cap until the season starts. By definition, rookie minimum salaries will not be counted because they won't crack the top 51.

    The only part that will count against the current cap is the first year bonus amortization allocated by the NFL, which in the Patriots case will be more or less $1 mil.

    So the draft has almost no bearing whatsoever on their current salary cap. They can spend every dime (except for $1 mil) on free agents if they choose to.  However, when the season rolls around all salaries and bonus amortizations of rostered players, plus dead money count. That's when the full $3 mil of the draft picks will count (if they all make the team).

     



    This is close, but not exactly correct Muz, at least as I read the CBA. 

    When players are drafted but before they've signed, they count at the rookie minimum salary. However, because of the "top-51" rule that applies in the offseason, these rookie minimum salaries won't impact the offseason cap.

    Once the drafted player signs, however, his salary and prorated bonus will count against the cap just like any other's player would.  If the rookie is a high draft pick, he may very well be in the top 51 and therefore will have an impact on the offseason cap.

    Once the regular season starts, all player salaries and prorated bonuses count against the cap, including those for rookies.

    When drafting rookies, teams have to consider the fact that their top draft picks are likely to count against the offseason top-51 cap once they sign.  This generally means they have to leave some room in their offseason cap to accommodate their higher round draft picks.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Duplicate deleted

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    To avoid double and triple posting follow these easy instructions.  

    If you hit post and it hangs, highlite and copy your post, hit the F5 key or screen refresh, if your post is not there paste it back in and repost

    ta da!

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    ALERT: SALARY CAP MISINFORMATION ABOUNDS!

    $3 mil for draft picks, $6 mil for draft picks, say what? Where do you people get your information?

    The allocation for draft picks really has very little to do with the salary cap. What they need to "allocate" at the draft is the rookie minimum salary times 5 draft picks, which is roughly $2 mil. plus what the rookie wage scale calls for in bonus money, which will be another $1 mil or so. So about $3 mil.

    But here's the deal, none of those rookie salaries count against the salary cap! Not now anyway. Only the top 51 contracts are counted against the cap until the season starts. By definition, rookie minimum salaries will not be counted because they won't crack the top 51.

    The only part that will count against the current cap is the first year bonus amortization allocated by the NFL, which in the Patriots case will be more or less $1 mil.

    So the draft has almost no bearing whatsoever on their current salary cap. They can spend every dime (except for $1 mil) on free agents if they choose to.  However, when the season rolls around all salaries and bonus amortizations of rostered players, plus dead money count. That's when the full $3 mil of the draft picks will count (if they all make the team).

     

     



    This is close, but not exactly correct Muz, at least as I read the CBA. 

     

    When players are drafted but before they've signed, they count at the rookie minimum salary. However, because of the "top-51" rule that applies in the offseason, these rookie minimum salaries won't impact the offseason cap.

    Once the drafted player signs, however, his salary and prorated bonus will count against the cap just like any other's player would.  If the rookie is a high draft pick, he may very well be in the top 51 and therefore will have an impact on the offseason cap.

    Once the regular season starts, all player salaries and prorated bonuses count against the cap, including those for rookies.

    When drafting rookies, teams have to consider the fact that their top draft picks are likely to count against the offseason top-51 cap once they sign.  This generally means they have to leave some room in their offseason cap to accommodate their higher round draft picks.

     



    prolate, I don't think you said anything different than I did? I understand that long term, all rostered players will count and I said as much. All I was addressing is the continued misconception that they will have to set aside or "allocate" $3 mil (or more) at the time of the draft, so their $13 or $14 mil in available cap space is reduced by that amount. And that is simply untrue.

    Between the draft and the season, there will be lots of maneuvering, particularly after June 1. Lots of moving parts.

    Also, per the rookie wage scale, ALL rookies from the number one pick through Mr. Irrelevant get the rookie minimum salary (last year was $390K, not sure this year) in their first year. Andrew Luck got the same salary as the 29th pick, Harrison Smith and Nate Ebner got.  FYI, Smith's cap hit was $1.3 mil last year, about $900K was his prorated bonus which is what the Vikings were required to have available at the draft for him.

    All rookies are allocated a gross amount by the NFL which includes the rookie minimum plus their bonus, there's no wiggle room, no negotiation on those things, they're set in stone. Higher picks are allocated more only because they get a bigger bonus.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Muz,  I may be reading you wrong, but from the way you're describing it, it seems like you're saying that there's some pre-determined rookie bonus allocation that counts against the cap at the time players are drafted.  Also, you seem to be implying that there's no negotiation for rookies and that all rookies automatically get the rookie minimum salary plus a (predetermined?) bonus.  

    Really what happens is each team is assigned a cap that applies for their drafted rookies. The size of this cap is based on the number and placement of the team's draft picks.  The team can negotiate any salary or bonus with each of its rookies as long as the team doesn't exceed this rookie cap assigned to them (or exceed the overall salary cap, which also applies, since rookie salaries count both toward the rookie cap and the overall salary cap).  It's not like rookie salaries are completely pre-determined.  Instead, there's just a cap on what teams can spend on their (drafted) rookies. This cap is a subset of the overall salary cap (not a seperate pool), so when signing drafted rookies, teams need to be sure to stay within the rookie pool allocated to them and also within the overall salary cap.

    Before a drafted player is signed, the rookie minimum salary is used like a placeholder for the real salary, since that's the lowest possible salary the rookie could be signed for.  Once the player is actually signed, the player's actual salary (and prorated bonus) is used instead of the "placeholder."


    If you end up signing a rookie whose cap hit is $2.1 million, that player very well could be a top-51 player.  If the bottom player on your top-51 has a $1.2 million cap hit and you're at the cap, then you'll be $0.9 million over the cap once you sign your rookie.  So you need to plan ahead for that or you're going to have to cut one of your top 51s to make room for the rookie.  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ALERT: SALARY CAP MISINFORMATION ABOUNDS!

    $3 mil for draft picks, $6 mil for draft picks, say what? Where do you people get your information?

    The allocation for draft picks really has very little to do with the salary cap. What they need to "allocate" at the draft is the rookie minimum salary times 5 draft picks, which is roughly $2 mil. plus what the rookie wage scale calls for in bonus money, which will be another $1 mil or so. So about $3 mil.

    But here's the deal, none of those rookie salaries count against the salary cap! Not now anyway. Only the top 51 contracts are counted against the cap until the season starts. By definition, rookie minimum salaries will not be counted because they won't crack the top 51.

    The only part that will count against the current cap is the first year bonus amortization allocated by the NFL, which in the Patriots case will be more or less $1 mil.

    So the draft has almost no bearing whatsoever on their current salary cap. They can spend every dime (except for $1 mil) on free agents if they choose to.  However, when the season rolls around all salaries and bonus amortizations of rostered players, plus dead money count. That's when the full $3 mil of the draft picks will count (if they all make the team).

     



    Exactly, and it's why I grow so tired of hearing how we need to save all this money for draft picks...really? Where we are selecting?!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Under the rookie wage scale, every single draft pick gets the rookie minimum salary in their first year and a slotted salary for the remaining three years of their rookie contracts. All draft picks automatically get 4 year contracts, except first rounders who get 4 year contracts with a 5th year option (that gets a bit complicated). 

    Andrew Luck got $390K in salary plus about $14 mil signing bonus as the first pick.

    RGIII got $390K in salary plus about $13.6 mil in signing bonus as the second pick.

    Harrison Smith got $390K in salary plus about $3.6 mil in signing bonus as the 29th pick.

    Nate Ebner got $390K in salary plus $50K in signing bonus as a 6th rounder.

    There is some range within which draft picks can get a slightly higher signing bonus, but it's very limited and not that significant for cap purposes.

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

    Under the rookie wage scale, every single draft pick gets the rookie minimum salary in their first year and a slotted salary for the remaining three years of their rookie contracts. All draft picks automatically get 4 year contracts, except first rounders who get 4 year contracts with a 5th year option (that gets a bit complicated). 

    Not quite right Muzz.  In practice, many rookies are agreeing to the rookie minimum salary to increase the amount available for their signing bonuses (which are guaranteed money), but the CBA doesn't specify exactly how much any rookie gets in either salary or bonus.  The following paragraph from the CBA is explicit on the fact that teams can sign rookies for any amount, provided they do not exceed their overall rookie allocation. 

    (g) Notwithstanding the above, nothing shall prevent a Club from signing a player for an amount in excess of his Year-One Formula Allotment multiplied by the League-wide Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, or his Year-One Minimum Allot-ment multiplied by the Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, provided that the Club has Room available under its Year-One Rookie Allocation. 

    Andrew Luck got $390K in salary plus about $14 mil signing bonus as the first pick.

    RGIII got $390K in salary plus about $13.6 mil in signing bonus as the second pick.

    Harrison Smith got $390K in salary plus about $3.6 mil in signing bonus as the 29th pick.

    Nate Ebner got $390K in salary plus $50K in signing bonus as a 6th rounder.

    There is some range within which draft picks can get a slightly higher signing bonus, but it's very limited and not that significant for cap purposes.

     

     




     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ...

    Not quite right Muzz.  In practice, many rookies are agreeing to the rookie minimum salary to increase the amount available for their signing bonuses (which are guaranteed money), but the CBA doesn't specify exactly how much any rookie gets in either salary or bonus.  The following paragraph from the CBA is explicit on the fact that teams can sign rookies for any amount, provided they do not exceed their rookie allocation. 

    (g) Notwithstanding the above, nothing shall prevent a Club from signing a player for an amount in excess of his Year-One Formula Allotment multiplied by the League-wide Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, or his Year-One Minimum Allot-ment multiplied by the Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, provided that the Club has Room available under its Year-One Rookie Allocation. 

    Andrew Luck got $390K in salary plus about $14 mil signing bonus as the first pick.

    RGIII got $390K in salary plus about $13.6 mil in signing bonus as the second pick.

    Harrison Smith got $390K in salary plus about $3.6 mil in signing bonus as the 29th pick.

    Nate Ebner got $390K in salary plus $50K in signing bonus as a 6th rounder.

    There is some range within which draft picks can get a slightly higher signing bonus, but it's very limited and not that significant for cap purposes.

     



    OK, so I guess in theory they could get a slightly higher salary, but in practice they all get the same.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ...

    Not quite right Muzz.  In practice, many rookies are agreeing to the rookie minimum salary to increase the amount available for their signing bonuses (which are guaranteed money), but the CBA doesn't specify exactly how much any rookie gets in either salary or bonus.  The following paragraph from the CBA is explicit on the fact that teams can sign rookies for any amount, provided they do not exceed their rookie allocation. 

    (g) Notwithstanding the above, nothing shall prevent a Club from signing a player for an amount in excess of his Year-One Formula Allotment multiplied by the League-wide Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, or his Year-One Minimum Allot-ment multiplied by the Year-One Rookie Compensation Pool, provided that the Club has Room available under its Year-One Rookie Allocation. 

    Andrew Luck got $390K in salary plus about $14 mil signing bonus as the first pick.

    RGIII got $390K in salary plus about $13.6 mil in signing bonus as the second pick.

    Harrison Smith got $390K in salary plus about $3.6 mil in signing bonus as the 29th pick.

    Nate Ebner got $390K in salary plus $50K in signing bonus as a 6th rounder.

    There is some range within which draft picks can get a slightly higher signing bonus, but it's very limited and not that significant for cap purposes.

     

     



    OK, so I guess in theory they could get a slightly higher salary, but in practice they all get the same.

     



    Similar amounts at least, though there is some variation.  As far as the cap hit goes, last year mid first rounders had cap hits between $1 and $2 million (Chandler Jones' hit was nearly $1.5 million).  That's a big enough cap cost to put the player on the top 51 list, so teams do need to pay attention to those numbers.  Still, it's not a huge amount they are worrying about--only a few million.  Still, if you're right at the cap going into the draft, you're going to have to cut players to sign rookies, so you need to leave some space. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    Right now the Pats 51st player is on league minimum which is 480K. Late first round draft picks cost about 1.4M in cap hit (Jones was about 1.5, Hightower about 1.4) and late second round players are around 750K, third rounders about 600K using last years numbers. So the first three picks for the Pats will end up at near 2M when they sign their contracts not when they are drafted. High quality UFAs can actually be more expensive because 1) they count as soon as signed, and 2) They end up getting more bonus money than late round draft picks because they can sign with any team.

    So assigning a number of 3M to the Pats rookie pool is not unrealistic.

    And the Pats like to have a camp/season cushion of around 5M to allow some manouverability to resign current players in their last year of contract, pick up late camp cuts from other teams, or replace injured players during the season.

    Yes, there is lots of flexibility between now and the start of the season when the 'top51' rule disappears, but you cannot ignore the bottom line by signing too many guaranteed salary contracts and/or giving too many signing bonuses that become dead money when the player is cut. The Pats made the signing bonus mistake last year and ended up with 22M in dead money.

    So yes - right now the Pats could spend 10+M on FAs, but it is unlikely that they will as it will cramp their flexibility later in the preseason. It is more likely that they are looking at a pool of around 6M for a few additional FAs and not a single splash signing.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    All good points mia . . . while the cap cost of drafted rookies isn't huge, it's also not something you can ignore.  In the end, the Pats are probably going to have roughly between $4 and $6 million in cap charges for rookies they keep on the roster, so you need to be thinking ahead.  Just because the top 51 list gives you a bit of a reprieve in the pre-season, you don't want to be forced into cutting good players at the end of pre-season (and accumulating dead money for next year) just to stay under the cap.  

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Allocating $3 mil for draft picks is perfectly reasonable, as is leaving a few mil more as a cushion against stuff that happens down the road.  All good. However, there's no rule requiring it. And there's plenty of time to maneuver after the draft to fit under the cap.

    That was the point, not to say they should go out and sign FAs irresponsibly. But that they could afford to sign an Abraham and/or others, if they choose to, and still have no problem salary cap-wise. 

    One thing this thread proves, there is a salary cap hell and it's right here on this message board...

     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from mia76. Show mia76's posts

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    Allocating $3 mil for draft picks is perfectly reasonable, as is leaving a few mil more as a cushion against stuff that happens down the road.  All good. However, there's no rule requiring it. And there's plenty of time to maneuver after the draft to fit under the cap.

    That was the point, not to say they should go out and sign FAs irresponsibly. But that they could afford to sign an Abraham and/or others, if they choose to, and still have no problem salary cap-wise. 

    One thing this thread proves, there is a salary cap hell and it's right here on this message board...

     



    Good laugh on your last line!

    And I completely agree (and hope) they can sign Abraham, but I don't think they want to pay him more than 2.5M and I think he is looking for more at this moment. And I think they need to sign a few WRs before camp - and that will likely cost a couple of million. All I was saying is those two things will use up much of their cushion so thinking they could make a splash signing on top of that is not likely.

     

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