Still sick about the 2nd round pick

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to digger0862's comment:


    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:


    [QUOTE]Other than QB, that's a pretty subjective ranking.  RBs for instance can barely find jobs now, and NFL GMs pay top receivers pretty good money, so unless those GMs are all dumb, I think your ranking is a little hard to defend.  Personally, I'd be delighted with receivers as good as the 2004 Branch, Brown, Givens, Patten, Johnson group.  People talk as if those guys were dog meat.  That was a nice, well-rounded group if you ask me.


     


     


    There's a tendency for people to poo-poo receivers on this site, and to say high scoring offenses are not valuable.  That's knee jerkism if you ask me.  The fact that the Pats didn't win the Super Bowl in 2007 doesn't negate Randy Moss's value.  Nor does it mean a high-powered offense is no good.  It just underscores how hard it is to win the championship.  A lot has to go right.  One way to help things go right, though, is to be good and deep in as many positions as possible - and that includes wideout.



     


     


    I had WR above RB but changed it just for you. :)


     


    As for NFL GMs being dumb for giving receivers big money I'll let you be the judge.


     


    Here's the top 20 highest paid wide receivers and their seasons in the postseason.


     


    Calvin Johnson Lions              1 of 7 in postseason
    Larry Fitzgerald Cardinals      2 of 10 in postseason
    Percy Harvin Seahawks          2 of 5 in postseason
    Mike Wallace Dolphins           2 of 5 in postseason
    Dwayne Bowe Chiefs             2 of 7 in postseason
    Vincent Jackson Buccaneers 4 of 9 in postseason
    Brandon Marshall Bears         0 of 8 in postseason
    Andre Johnson Texans          2 of 11 in postseason
    Greg Jennings Vikings           5 of 8 in postseason
    Victor Cruz Giants                  1 of 4 in postseason
    Roddy White Falcons            4 of 9 in postseason
    Pierre Garcon Redskins          3 of 6 in postseason
    Antonio Brown Steelers         2 of 4 in postseason
    DeSean Jackson Redskins     4 of 6 in postseason
    Mike Williams Bills                  0 of 4 in postseason
    Marques Colston Saints       5 of 8 in postseason
    Steve Johnson 49ers           0 of 6 in postseason
    Eric Decker Jets                    3 of 4 in postseason
    Golden Tate Lions                 3 of 4 in postseason
    Brian Hartline Dolphins        0 of 5 in postseason
    Overrated


    [/QUOTE]


    And at least one-quarter of them have Super Bowl rings . . . 


     Not sure this proves anything at all.  Single players don't win games, teams do.  I'm not sure you'd get much different results at any position.  Try the top 20 left tackles, for instance . . . 


     

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to ATJ's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to mthurl's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Salcon's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    As a previous poster said, Belichick is pretty good at drafting tight ends.  So, why didn't he draft one? More than likely because he didn't see any available that he liked.  I'll trust his judgement on that one. 

    The team needed a backup QB because Mallet is gone after this season, maybe before but I tend to doubt that.

    JG needs at least a season of grooming/learning the offense before he's given sole backup duty.

    [/QUOTE]


    I disagree with this, if Garappolo needs two years just to become a backup then we should of drafted someone else. You don't spend second round picks on guys who aren't even capable of being backups - I don't care if we are talking about a QB - if you are drafted that high you should at least be able to be a backup. With the needs this team had (tight end, receiver, defensive tackle, cover linebacker, safety) Garappolo must have been drafted with higher expectations than you are mentioning. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Mhurl, I have to disagree with you here.  A number 2 QB needs every bit as much knowledge of the pro game and the offense as the starter.  There aren't many rookies who are up to that regardless of where they're drafted and the Pats offense is one of the most complex in the league. 

    [/QUOTE]

    Ok, I understand your point.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from seawolfxs. Show seawolfxs's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    We will win if our d is very good and our online doesn't get blown up

    we have enough weapons


    Pat's Fan lost in Jet Land

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from m. a. pat. Show m. a. pat's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    Ras I, Ron Brace, Jermaine Cunningham, Patrick Chung........ J.G. couldn't be worse than these 2nd round picks could he?
    I was surprised by the pick when it happened but the Pats were interviewing quarterbacks before the draft and if they like Garappolo it was probably the only reasonable spot where he would be available to them.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from JulesWinfield. Show JulesWinfield's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In the spirit of the original post, I must say that I agree that the Pats are fielding one of the poorest receiving corps in the league.  That's not to say that there aren't any receivers worth a dang.  We all know that Gronk has elite skills when healthy.  Amendola has flashes of brilliance when healthy.  And Edelman could be growing into a Welker-like player.  Not to mention, that there are young players (Dobson, Boyce) who could make a leap.  However, When's the last time that Gronk and Amendola were healthy for any amount of time?  Do most teams have more promising youngsters than Dobson and Boyce? (Yes.)  However, I must say that I wouldn't gainsay Garroppolo - one my favorite QBs in this draft.  He very well may be the heir apparent...

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to JulesWinfield's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In the spirit of the original post, I must say that I agree that the Pats are fielding one of the poorest receiving corps in the league.  That's not to say that there aren't any receivers worth a dang.  We all know that Gronk has elite skills when healthy.  Amendola has flashes of brilliance when healthy.  And Edelman could be growing into a Welker-like player.  Not to mention, that there are young players (Dobson, Boyce) who could make a leap.  However, When's the last time that Gronk and Amendola were healthy for any amount of time?  Do most teams have more promising youngsters than Dobson and Boyce? (Yes.)  However, I must say that I wouldn't gainsay Garroppolo - one my favorite QBs in this draft.  He very well may be the heir apparent...

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement

    thompkins is overlooked IMO.  He's my dark horse this year. He played pretty good at UC

    ivwant to see garoppolo play in preseason. Like you said , the pats were looking at QB's before the draft and apparently this was one of their guys. I'd hated it if we missed out on easly

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    Don't fret. If BB didn't pick this stiff, he would have picked a different stiff.

     

    ______________________________________________________

    Question: How can you tell when Rusty's lying?

    Answer: He typed something.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    And at least one-quarter of them have Super Bowl rings . . . 


    Not sure this proves anything at all.  Single players don't win games, teams do.  I'm not sure you'd get much different results at any position.  Try the top 20 left tackles, for instance . . .


    And only one after they got paid. Was Harvin worth $25 million guaranteed?


    "Single players don't win games, teams do" Exactly. High paid receivers aren't worth the money.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    Mallet was gone after this year, he may not make it through this season as a Patriot so the point is moot.  We would enter next year with no Mallet, Brady a year older and everybody would know in advance that we are desperate for a QB and would move to block us in the draft, we might have ended up using a #1 on a QB.

    In this case we got a first round prospect in the 2nd round, a guy with substantial upside and the most productive QB in the NCAA last year... Not too shabby.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to digger0862's comment:


    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:


    [QUOTE]And at least one-quarter of them have Super Bowl rings . . . 


     


     


    Not sure this proves anything at all.  Single players don't win games, teams do.  I'm not sure you'd get much different results at any position.  Try the top 20 left tackles, for instance . . .



    And only one after they got paid. Was Harvin worth $25 million guaranteed?


     


     


    "Single players don't win games, teams do" Exactly. High paid receivers aren't worth the money.


    [/QUOTE]


    It would certainly have helped the Patriots if they had a guy who made plays like Harvin did against the Broncos.  He was injured most of the season, but boy did he step up in the Super Bowl.  Those sweep plays were brilliant and the kick off return sealed the victory.  


    And as far as high paid receivers not being worth the money, your argument could apply to just about any position other than QB.  How many rings do guys like Mario Williams or Demarcus Ware or Ndamukong Suh or Darelle Revis or Adrian Peterson have?  It takes a team to win.  By your argument most high paid players aren't worth the money. In that case, there's no need to single out WRs.  


    Look, you don't need a great player at any particular position (other than QB) to be competitive--but you do need enough good players at enough positions if you hope to challenge for a Lombardi. Having good receivers helps you in that goal.  It's not essential if you have quality elsewhere--and it's not enough if you lack quality elsewhere--but it never hurts to have impact players in any role. 


    Moss made a difference for the Pats.  So did Branch when he was young.  Denying this is silly. 


     


     


      

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bradysgirlforreal. Show Bradysgirlforreal's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to ma6dragon9's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    How many rings does Peyton have, with all those extra weapons through the years?

    How many does Brady have?

    Did you watch the Super Bowl last year?

    How'd it turn out when the Pats had the "best offense ever" to date in 2007? How'd the "Best offense ever" Broncos do last year? How'd the "greatest show on turf" do in 2001? How'd the "greatest offense ever" 1998 Vikings do?

    In 2013, the Pats scored 444 points...good enough for 3rd in the entire NFL.

    What they lacked was situational defense and offense. 3rd downs. Red zones.

    Sure, taking a QB when you have Tom Brady seems outrageous...but that's what you do to build a solid franchise. People thought the Pats were crazy to waste a roster spot on Brady as a 4th QB in 2000 as well. 

    One thing they DO NOT NEED, contrary to popular belief, is more weapons. They have enough, 2007 isn't ever coming back, and I don't want it.

    2003/04, however, looks like it may be making a much anticipated come back!

    [/QUOTE]


    Good points- you made me feel more optimistic- Thanks!

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bradysgirlforreal. Show Bradysgirlforreal's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Should have used that 2nd rnd pick for a freaking TE.  Wasted it on JG, imo. 

     

    *******************************

    Be a Fan!  But don't be a Homer Fan!

    [/QUOTE]


    Thank you- thought I was losing my mind- Tom Curran also agrees with us -it was a wasted pick - he'll never see the field unless Bradys injured and then we are cooked anyways?

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bradysgirlforreal. Show Bradysgirlforreal's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to digger0862's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    [QUOTE]I don't know about over- or underrated, but all 11 guys are important in the NFL and all 12 in the CFL.
    [/QUOTE]
    Yes, they are all important but some are more important than others.

     

     

    QB > OL > RB > WR > TE depending on how good your QB is.

     

    Give me a Troy Brown or a Deion Branch, someone who is team first and not me first and you'll be more successful with them vs a diva WR like so many of them are. Plus they cost too much.

     

    Last year's rookies will make the jump, Gronk, Amendola and Edelman will stay healthy and all will be well in Patriots land.

    [/QUOTE]


    I hope you are right because if Gronk goes down we are left with JE and a bunch of second year UNPROVEN guys?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    You guys left me nothing to say! 

     

    Good comments about JG pick. Good comments about Dobson and Thompkins. Good comments about Vereen and White.

    Well, one thing that was not said was that if we did not pick JG we could have picked someone solid for either the O line or front 7 on D. That was my hope. But I cant really argue with JG at this point. He does look like good value at that spot on paper. And if this team is really good (and it sure looks like it) it would be great to have someone off the bench at QB who can bring it home with this group if TB goes down - this year or next year.

    It is easy every year to get excited by the team BB puts together. THis year as much as any, more than most.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moss made a difference for the Pats.  So did Branch when he was young.  Denying this is silly.   

    [QUOTE]

    David Givens: 7th round

    David Patten: Undrafted, Arena League

    Troy Brown: 8th round

    Deion Branch: 2nd round

    Randy Moss: traded for a 3rd round pick

    I think what Digger is saying is that WR's are a dime a dozen, every draft there are 20-40 who have the skill set to be special, conversely there are typically 3-6 defensive tackles who have Pro Bowl potential, they are almost always gone by the start of the 3rd round.  Athletic big guys don't grow on trees and they don't hang around.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to Bradysgirlforreal's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Should have used that 2nd rnd pick for a freaking TE.  Wasted it on JG, imo. 

     

    *******************************

    Be a Fan!  But don't be a Homer Fan!

    [/QUOTE]


    Thank you- thought I was losing my mind- Tom Curran also agrees with us -it was a wasted pick - he'll never see the field unless Bradys injured and then we are cooked anyways?

    [/QUOTE]


    I don't want to get lynched for saying this but...what if Brady was lost for another year? Would he really come back? I don't really want to think about it, but that's basically what happened to Rodney Harrison.

    I'd like to HOPE that we won't need Brady's replacement for 3-4 more years. He's 36 right now, he's already outlived the career of many, many great quarterbacks. What I do not want to do is have to spend valuable cap space on a backup. I also do not want to depend on a rookie to do it. I also don't want to depend on a rookie or second year, late round guy to do it. You have to spend some assets from somewhere. Yes, there were TEs I liked on the board at that time, but you just can't have everything. I'd rather they reach in the second for a guy they like...rather than reach in the third or fourth based on a need.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Footballexpert45. Show Footballexpert45's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    I see Jimmy Crapalo as another bust in the long history of Pats 2nd rd busts.  A complete waste of a good 2nd rd pick that could have been used on a TE or WR.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moss made a difference for the Pats.  So did Branch when he was young.  Denying this is silly.   

    [QUOTE]

    David Givens: 7th round

    David Patten: Undrafted, Arena League

    Troy Brown: 8th round

    Deion Branch: 2nd round

    Randy Moss: traded for a 3rd round pick

    I think what Digger is saying is that WR's are a dime a dozen, every draft there are 20-40 who have the skill set to be special, conversely there are typically 3-6 defensive tackles who have Pro Bowl potential, they are almost always gone by the start of the 3rd round.  Athletic big guys don't grow on trees and they don't hang around.

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    I'm not sure I agree good receivers are a dime a dozen.  If so, Belichick would have found more of them.  It is true, however, that they are often harder to assess.  Lots of the high picks are busts and lower picks sometimes become stars.  

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:


    I'm not sure I agree good receivers are a dime a dozen.  If so, Belichick would have found more of them.  It is true, however, that they are often harder to assess.  Lots of the high picks are busts and lower picks sometimes become stars.  




    Show me a list of Pro Bowl defensive tackles taken past round three... Tommy Kelly might be the most successful late round/undrafted DT ever after John Randle.


    Our offensive system is substantially more difficult than most for receivers to pick up, largely because it is a QB read system and the receiver has to share a rapport with our QB.


    That being said there is generally one (two if you're lucky) draft picks a year that have All Pro nose tackle potential.  I'm sure the number of receivers that make it in the NFL are out there somewhere compared to DT's but I watch enough NBA to know that physical freaks don't grow on trees and are special.  The world is full of fast average sized guys.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    [/QUOTE]



    I think we are agreeing.  Linemen are easier to assess.  Good offensive tackles also tend to go high, just like good defensive tackles.  It's easier to judge those players' skills based on their college tape. Receivers are much harder to assess because in college they just beat people (often corners and safeties who have no pro potential) on pure physical skills, but in the NFL (where the defenders are much better and much better disciplined and the offenses much more complex), they need elite mental skills too and that just doesn't show on the tape. 

     

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moss made a difference for the Pats.  So did Branch when he was young.  Denying this is silly.   

    [QUOTE]

    David Givens: 7th round

    David Patten: Undrafted, Arena League

    Troy Brown: 8th round

    Deion Branch: 2nd round

    Randy Moss: traded for a 3rd round pick

    I think what Digger is saying is that WR's are a dime a dozen, every draft there are 20-40 who have the skill set to be special, conversely there are typically 3-6 defensive tackles who have Pro Bowl potential, they are almost always gone by the start of the 3rd round.  Athletic big guys don't grow on trees and they don't hang around.

    [/QUOTE]


    I'm not sure I agree good receivers are a dime a dozen.  If so, Belichick would have found more of them.  It is true, however, that they are often harder to assess.  Lots of the high picks are busts and lower picks sometimes become stars.  

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    It is more difficult for an outside receiver to stand out in our system. The Pats have primarily gone with a 2 TE set for the last 4 years, where the feature of the offense has been those 2 TE's(meaning they're not just blocking) and the slot receiver. How productive can an outside receiver be when Gronk, Hern and WW were getting 75% of the targets and catching over 70% of those targets? Brandon Lloyd and his 70 catches were probably about as good as it could get. Branch and Chad teaming up for 65 were also on par the year before.

    Investing 100 million into 2 dominant TE's replaces the need for higher paid and possibly higher talented receivers.  Especially given Brady's dominance in the short to mid field passing game.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to TrueChamp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to wozzy's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    Moss made a difference for the Pats.  So did Branch when he was young.  Denying this is silly.   

    [QUOTE]

    David Givens: 7th round

    David Patten: Undrafted, Arena League

    Troy Brown: 8th round

    Deion Branch: 2nd round

    Randy Moss: traded for a 3rd round pick

    I think what Digger is saying is that WR's are a dime a dozen, every draft there are 20-40 who have the skill set to be special, conversely there are typically 3-6 defensive tackles who have Pro Bowl potential, they are almost always gone by the start of the 3rd round.  Athletic big guys don't grow on trees and they don't hang around.

    [/QUOTE]


    I'm not sure I agree good receivers are a dime a dozen.  If so, Belichick would have found more of them.  It is true, however, that they are often harder to assess.  Lots of the high picks are busts and lower picks sometimes become stars.  

    [/QUOTE]


    [object HTMLDivElement]

    It is more difficult for an outside receiver to stand out in our system. The Pats have primarily gone with a 2 TE set for the last 4 years, where the feature of the offense has been those 2 TE's(meaning they're not just blocking) and the slot receiver. How productive can an outside receiver be when Gronk, Hern and WW were getting 75% of the targets and catching over 70% of those targets? Brandon Lloyd and his 70 catches were probably about as good as it could get. Branch and Chad teaming up for 65 were also on par the year before.

    Investing 100 million into 2 dominant TE's replaces the need for higher paid and possibly higher talented receivers.  Especially given Brady's dominance in the short to mid field passing game.

    [/QUOTE]

    But we no longer have those two TEs so we need alternatives.  Plus, there are advantages to having a player who pulls the defense back even if he's not your primary target.  Having that player opens up those underneath routes for your short field receivers and also means fewer defenders near the LOS when you run.  

    The two TE, one slot, up-tempo offense that OBrien and Belichick developed was a brilliant solution to an offense lacking in good deep/perimeter receivers, but it's no longer an offense we can play, because we no longer have two excellent receiving TEs.

     

     

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from Bradysgirlforreal. Show Bradysgirlforreal's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to Footballexpert45's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I see Jimmy Crapalo as another bust in the long history of Pats 2nd rd busts.  A complete waste of a good 2nd rd pick that could have been used on a TE or WR.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree 100% Im still sick over the pick this Guy Garapalo or whatever will be out of the league in 3/4 years-btw hes having a horrible camp! What a wasted 2ND ROUND PICK( BB outsmarted himself again!).

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from ma6dragon9. Show ma6dragon9's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    In response to Bradysgirlforreal's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Footballexpert45's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I see Jimmy Crapalo as another bust in the long history of Pats 2nd rd busts.  A complete waste of a good 2nd rd pick that could have been used on a TE or WR.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree 100% Im still sick over the pick this Guy Garapalo or whatever will be out of the league in 3/4 years-btw hes having a horrible camp! What a wasted 2ND ROUND PICK( BB outsmarted himself again!).

    [/QUOTE]


    Are you being serious right now, or are you kidding?

    Having a horrible camp...it's fking 3 days in!

    Footballnonexpert couldn't be more wrong, I'm not going to waste my time listing the players recently taken in the 2nd round who have worked out. It's about 50% success...as good, or better, than just about every other team in the league. Want a 2nd round TE? Gronk. Shut up. Thank you.

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Still sick about the 2nd round pick

    Wow!!  I'm impressed with the extent of in-depth football knowledge on this board.  Long history of 2nd round busts???? Really??? No sh_it?? 

     

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