Stopping Denver's Run Game

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Stopping Denver's Run Game

    Anyone know the defensive Xs and Os in dealling w/ Tebow, their run game, and option plays?
     
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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    From what I've seen they are running a kind of wing-T offense/spread option. They change their personnel from literally five wide, like five true WRs, to a two RB backfield and use misdirection plays shifting between the packages.

    1.) Defending them means setting an edge. It's absolutely crucial. The interior lineman have to keep their men under wraps too, because the Broncos are relying on a bunch of pulling guards, etc, to get blockers to the second level. It's crucial that the LBers stay clean and are allowed to flow to the ball at the edges. 

    2.) Be patient about the playfakes, and force the Broncos to show their hand. Like the Florida option, and this wierd Fox hybrid thing, the misdirection plays create a lot of noise. Don't overpursue. Let them get the short yardage gains on their "first" handoff into traffic, if it means not giving up a 3rd and 8 12 yard reverse, or scamper. 

    3.) Dig out the college playbook. Play the option well. I think they put in 10-15 option plays per game. The LBers might not have faced this in a while, but they need to refresh their memory. My guess is that they use "assignment" defense when they see an option play. Bring a safety to mid-depth or right to the line, making an ersatz 44 ... letting the END take the QB, the WLB or SS take the RB, and the SAM or ILB can flow to the direction of the pitch, or vice versa. Using assignments basically fans each end of the front out to make sure there is containment whichever way the ball goes.

    4.) Here is the trick too, you need to blitz Tebow, because as bad as his rating is, it is simply atrocious under the blitz. But you also need "contain" blitzes. The Jets lost to the Broncos on a blitz because all of the pressure emerged from the middle, and Tebow ran like a scared cat ... for a TD. 

    From a broad strategic standpoint, though, just get the Broncos in a 3rd and long, and don't break down.
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]Score 56 points and make them have to pass?
    Posted by Patsfansince1966[/QUOTE]


    Yeah. If NE gets a good lead early, it'll be a long day for Denver.

    It looks like Chung is out again. Spikes' return could be crucial. 

    Both are starters. Both were missed last week dearly, as the Skins romped to 100's of rushing yards.

    Both would be huge against this Bronco offense. Chung won't be there, but maybe Spikes can be and Ihedigbo seems more natural playing close to the line anyhow, so he can be a fake Chung.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from oh-my-beard. Show oh-my-beard's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    They need to play a helluva lot better on run D than they did on Sunday in Washington, that's what I know.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game



    Sit down with Herrnandez and pick his brain. Try to get inside Tebow's head a bit in terms of what he likes and dislikes. Then make Tebow uncomfortable. This means keeping him in the pocket, not allowing him to go outside it for any reason. He's a better passer when on the run, and obviously lethal there as well as he can tuck it and pick up serious yardage.

    Z...Any thoughts on going with a 5 man line vs. 4? or bringing more help down into the box using your safety's or an extra LB?
    Tebow doesn't scare me through the air.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonSportsFan111. Show BostonSportsFan111's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    This guy wrote what I was gonna say, no sense retying the whole thing...

    http://www.football-defense.com/defending-the-option-offense/
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    Glue playboy's to the front of the DL's jerseys. Tebow will either run away like Sanchez meeting Bieber for the first time or be so h0rny he'll just sit and stare

    But seriously Z has it right.

    You set the DE's wide and horseshoe the pocket to contain the edge with a ILB assisting off the DT/NT and the SS in the box as a spy/contain. You can add a delayed overload blitzer off the assist or just s straight man blitz up the middle. Don't try to rush off the edge because if he breaks the tackle it gives him room to run. You can still keep him contained rushing the gut. And, it's enough for Tebow to panic (like much of the Jets game). What you can't do is send 10 and have your 1 contain miss a tackle. You blitz and/or rush 4-5 and get Tebow into his run happy mode (shouldn't be hard he's a run first QB) then you just have to make sure whoever your spy is that he stays home and contains.

    The trick is if you have 1 or 2 back for contain they have to be patient and let the play carry out only getting involved if Tebow looks to break containment.
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    GAP INTEGRITY GAP INTEGRITY GAP INTEGRITY

    It was always priority number one when I played against cl*st*rf*ck offenses in high school.  The Broncos are running a read option that also features some jump-cut zone-like plays where Tebow and McGahee can find the hole.  Guys need to maintain their gaps.  A lot of their runs are just regular old runs to McGahee.

    Another principle is playing every man.  We used to hit everyone in the option, just to let them know we would.  It helped because the cl*st*rf*ck offense is a war of attrition and wills.  I don't know how far this would fly in the NFL (hitting Tebow without the ball might garner an excommunication from the Vatican, let alone Goodell), but it goes back to the attrition/willpower point and it's the option so there's plausible deniability.  I used to love legally tackling guys to the ground in the option without the ball because they always complained that they didn't have the ball as their bodies slammed between mine and the ground, the types of tackles that wear out a runner the most.  It works.

    Expanding on the playing every man, in Tebow's offense, every guy including Tebow is a threat to play the football in the run or the pass, so back to playing everyone.

    [ADDED POINT: ONE ON ONE TACKLING --- in the option, you have blockers on d-linemen and one guy per skill player, which means you better make your tackle on your man the way I was taught to play it]

    Lastly, the Patriots' depth will help.  I was reading an excellent article that talked about how the Broncos' war of attrition was wearing down defenses before those 4th quarter comebacks.  It's not just a big week for Vince and the starters, but also for Shaun Ellis, Gerard Warren, and the guys deeper on the defensive line, which actually encourages me.



    [Added point: one thing that the Jets did that is helpful against the Wildcat was blitzing people off the edge to disrupt things in the backfield and spill the play and force the option out... Calvin Pace as the 11th guy would shoot the edge and blow things up against Wildcat offenses, which are a bit different, but intriguing nonetheless... tell the DE's to charge forth instead of sitting on their heels? would require Mayo to get it done on the other guy, wouldn't be the worse thing in the world]

    [Added point: force the option? --- as an outside linebacker I was taught to pick a guy.  It didn't matter which one because the Mike backer had the other, but make a choice and make him pay, then the corner or Mike would get the other, but you can't be indecisive and let both option guys continue down the field, but this was a different option, the edge-pitch one, not the read option, but I'm sure hitting both guys into next week works on any football field if you can manage it]
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]This guy wrote what I was gonna say, no sense retying the whole thing... http://www.football-defense.com/defending-the-option-offense/
    Posted by BostonSportsFan111[/QUOTE]

    Thanks for the link :)

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]From what I've seen they are running a kind of wing-T offense/spread option. They change their personnel from literally five wide, like five true WRs, to a two RB backfield and use misdirection plays shifting between the packages. 1.) Defending them means setting an edge. It's absolutely crucial. The interior lineman have to keep their men under wraps too, because the Broncos are relying on a bunch of pulling guards, etc, to get blockers to the second level. It's crucial that the LBers stay clean and are allowed to flow to the ball at the edges.  2.) Be patient about the playfakes, and force the Broncos to show their hand. Like the Florida option, and this wierd Fox hybrid thing, the misdirection plays create a lot of noise. Don't overpursue. Let them get the short yardage gains on their "first" handoff into traffic, if it means not giving up a 3rd and 8 12 yard reverse, or scamper.  3.) Dig out the college playbook. Play the option well. I think they put in 10-15 option plays per game. The LBers might not have faced this in a while, but they need to refresh their memory. My guess is that they use "assignment" defense when they see an option play. Bring a safety to mid-depth or right to the line, making an ersatz 44 ... letting the END take the QB, the WLB or SS take the RB, and the SAM or ILB can flow to the direction of the pitch, or vice versa. Using assignments basically fans each end of the front out to make sure there is containment whichever way the ball goes. 4.) Here is the trick too, you need to blitz Tebow, because as bad as his rating is, it is simply atrocious under the blitz. But you also need "contain" blitzes. The Jets lost to the Broncos on a blitz because all of the pressure emerged from the middle, and Tebow ran like a scared cat ... for a TD.  From a broad strategic standpoint, though, just get the Broncos in a 3rd and long, and don't break down.
    Posted by zbellino[/QUOTE]

    Sounds like the D will have to maintain their respective gaps, but if you blitz - isn't that forcing tebow to do what we really don't want him to do - which is run on his own or throw on the run when outside the pocket?
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]Glue playboy's to the front of the DL's jerseys. Tebow will either run away like Sanchez meeting Bieber for the first time or be so h0rny he'll just sit and stare But seriously Z has it right. You set the DE's wide and horseshoe the pocket to contain the edge with a ILB assisting off the DT/NT and the SS in the box as a spy/contain. You can add a delayed overload blitzer off the assist or just s straight man blitz up the middle. Don't try to rush off the edge because if he breaks the tackle it gives him room to run. You can still keep him contained rushing the gut. And, it's enough for Tebow to panic (like much of the Jets game). What you can't do is send 10 and have your 1 contain miss a tackle. You blitz and/or rush 4-5 and get Tebow into his run happy mode (shouldn't be hard he's a run first QB) then you just have to make sure whoever your spy is that he stays home and contains. The trick is if you have 1 or 2 back for contain they have to be patient and let the play carry out only getting involved if Tebow looks to break containment.
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    Which brings up a question of how well our defenseive guys will tackle, not only Tebow, the their RBs.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188. Show Artist-Frmrly-Knwn-As-NickC1188's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    One major added wrinkle: the Patriots play a two-gap system

    this week especially might shed light on why, even in the 4-3 as I often see it, the Patriots play their DTs in two-gap and it boils down to freeing up one or two extra linebackers because the DTs are controlling both gaps.

    I always played in one-gap systems, so while principally a lot of the stuff in the previous post still apply, a lot of what the 2-gap system turns this into is just straight forward defense with an extra read on the read-option before determining if it's a pass (because one or two extra linebackers might be free)

    Big week for Gerard Warren and Shaun Ellis as depth providers (and potential 2-gap guys)


     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game : Sounds like the D will have to maintain their respective gaps, but if you blitz - isn't that forcing tebow to do what we really don't want him to do - which is run on his own or throw on the run when outside the pocket?
    Posted by BubbaInHawaii[/QUOTE]

    Hmmm. Not if it's done well. The only quarter where Tebow has a plus rating is the 4th and overtime. 

    For some reasons teams stop blitzing, it drops from something like 50% to something like 20% (ESPN has an article on this I think). The Broncos offense tends to stall when you get pressure.

    As with any blitz ... you leave yourself vulnerable to big plays.If that is what you mean. 
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]Sit down with Herrnandez and pick his brain. Try to get inside Tebow's head a bit in terms of what he likes and dislikes. Then make Tebow uncomfortable. This means keeping him in the pocket, not allowing him to go outside it for any reason. He's a better passer when on the run, and obviously lethal there as well as he can tuck it and pick up serious yardage. Z...Any thoughts on going with a 5 man line vs. 4? or bringing more help down into the box using your safety's or an extra LB? Tebow doesn't scare me through the air.
    Posted by PatsLifer[/QUOTE]

    I recommend it.

    The 43 under rocks for this ... personally, I'd bring a 44 front every time the Broncos are in pro-set, I, or wing. Force Tebow to make throws downfield.  

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from tompenny. Show tompenny's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    They have played against wildcat plenty of times it will be a similar plan. The biggest thing is to not let him roll out to his left were he makes plays throwing the ball.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Dessalines. Show Dessalines's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    Good thread.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    Didn't we hear similar concerns when facing the Raiders?  Seems the D did quite well in shutting down the Raiders that day.
     
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    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    I think ZB has it right you can't bite on the fakes or overpursue. You have to maintain gap integrity. It's funny, it seems like the ol Twing/ read option that Turner Gil ran when Nebraska had the hugest offensive line in NCAA. On an earlier post I said that BB would try to stop the read option.

    This is just an observation, but it seems like whichever side of the field Tebow runs to when he is flushed out of the pocket is usually the side he throws to; be it the weakside or the strongside. Safeties and even some corners experience a lapse in coverage because of Tebow's constant threat to run the ball; it has nearly the same effect as a playfake that freezes or gets the secondary out of position for a passing play. So yeah, the D has to play the read option effectively or someone like Demarius Thomas could have a big game. This is a kind of hybrid on the ol read-option and it has been effective in the 4th quarter.

    Also hope that Belichick has a decent rotation for the D Line to keep certain players (Carter, Love, Fork) fresh for the 4th quarter. I'll be curious to see what happens if the Pats offense gets a big lead and the D can stop Denver's run. It could be a road to Damascus moment for Tebow.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game


    Agree on the depth comments. Will be very important this week.

    I think Z is right on the 43 under or 44. Crowd the box and force Tebow to throw.

    Tebow is unlike other running QBs or RBs that play QB in a wildcat because although he's not a prolific passer, he's certainly better than a guy like Ronnie Brown. Plus, Tebow is stout (built more like a FB at 6'3", 236/240). He's strong, he has similar vision to a RB (knows when to cut and which hole to pick), and he is actually a pretty patient runner (lets the line block before making his cuts).

    I don't know what his football IQ is given he is young with not a lot of experience. Thinking here about having 8 guys standing up on the line, in no particular set, and let Tebow sort it all out presnap. Is he smart enough to handle this? Not saying all game, but in spurts to confuse.
     
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    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    Stuff 8 guys in the box and see where he or his RBs can go.
     
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    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    tebow was like 21 for 40something last game, and SO MANY catches were dropped by his receivers.  he is getting better, and he will be trouble.
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from ddimaria. Show ddimaria's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    I heard this one sports radio (I am not a big football strategist, more of a drunken observer).  Do you think someone like Edelman Spying the QB would be effective?  Kind of a mini-me version of Troy Polamalu.  Is #11 big enough to tackle Jesus Jr?
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

    In Response to Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game:
    [QUOTE]New England's well below average run defense has been greatly overshadowed by the absolutely horrible pass D.  Teams have fallen into the trap of passing on them more than 60% of the plays because it is so inviting.  It will be interesting to see a team like Denver that is truley committed to running the ball at least 55% of the time.  As bad as that pass D is, the key, of course, is to keep Brady off the field and pound that weak with a consistent dose of running and good clock management. 
    Posted by JetMangione[/QUOTE]

    the only thing about using Edelman is that he weighs about 200 lbs. vs about 235 for Tebow. I realize it was only 1 tackle missed by Revis (and an arm tackle at that) - but Tebow is a little harder to bring down than most QBs.


     
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    Re: Stopping Denver's Run Game

     The Bears used Urlacher pretty effectively to contain Tebow's running but what concerns me more is his passing. I watched the Broncos/Bears game and while Tebow went 3-16 during the first 3 quarters, he was 18-24 from then on. Early in the game his receivers must have dropped a half dozen passes or more. Late in the game the Bears used a soft zone, his receivers got separation and he made some nice throws. One hugh positive for the Bronco's is that Tebow doesn't seem to be turnover prone. If Orlofsky and Grossman can pass for over 300 yards against this Patriots defense so can Tebow. Patriot success will start with the Oline keeping Dummerville and Miller off of Brady. No strip-sacks and no picks and we prevail. If we fail at that it might well be another cliff hanger for Tebow and he seems to get better late in games.
     

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