In response to bredbru's comment:

No, I was referring to certain others who argued that point for a year.

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

thanks for clarifying pro

In response to TripleOG's comment:

I don't think our saftey position is set, and would be very happy if there's an upgrade to gregory enough that he's cut.  I just think the CB as position is worse ( no arrington no talib) and should be the highest priority.  Then saftey/right tackle if we don't sign volmer.

it would help if they had a vicious hard hitting safety that could play, like rodney. i like mcCourty back there at fs, he's got range, speed, good hands, add a hard hitting safety next to him and recievers wont feel too comfortable going across the middle. it would be nice to see a few more physical players on each side of the ball. 

In response to quinzpatsfan's comment:

 

In response to TripleOG's comment:

 

In response to quinzpatsfan's comment:

 

In response to TripleOG's comment:
[QUOTE]

In response to seattlepat70's comment:

 

IMO, NO. DT is.

The secondary has consistently been burned WHEN the opposing QB has time. While edge rush ahs been addressed, they now need an interior rush. That's what they need to turn teh corner.

Also, imagine what this team would be if VW went down. BB can band aid a bad secondary. I don't think he can band aid for VW being out.

 

I agree somewhat I just believe the front 7 as a whole is in better shape with recent additions of Jones,  Hightower, and this CfL guy Armstead. Ive heard numerous fans already say he is a 1st round steal and I knew that was premature but at the same time I expect SOMETHING from him so just not sure BB still needs to adress it or will after signing two CFL guys. There are alot of priorities but if they dont get a presence in the back ends...Its all moot. I mean whoever they get, they aint gonna be Reggie White, This I know..  flacco didnt get any pressure on him the previous game either and Denver has @ premier pass rushers so what happened???  Nothing special. Just Bmore has a very stout line that played better than our line.

 

TripleOG this is a response to your post not the above thread.  first off excellent post.  I agree with you on what a huge need it is for us to get an enforcer true saftey type.  However we went to the super last year with worse and to the AFC champ game with Gregory and McCourty, probably more of a function of TB than our D, and granted we loss BOTH.  That said looking at the roster Arrington and Talib (forgive me if I'm wrong) are both FAs that means the only CBs we have signed from next year are (off top of my head)

CBs  Deanard, Cole, Dowling, Malcolm Williams (really need 3 starters)

Saftey is   McCourty, Gregory, Wilson, Ebner, martin

 

I think we actually need a 2nd and starting CB more than anything else

 

 

 

I disagree that Gregory is the answer here. I will bet he is released before week 1 next year. Its one thing to be close, its another to get over the hump. Im tired of getting close. I will have to disagree that our safeties are set.

 

 

I don't think our saftey position is set, and would be very happy if there's an upgrade to gregory enough that he's cut.  I just think the CB as position is worse ( no arrington no talib) and should be the highest priority.  Then saftey/right tackle if we don't sign volmer.

 

 

i have cb as more "important". keeping talib and addding a  big cb ie xavier rhodes.

 

safety can used to be upgraded. but there are priorities. 

In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

 

 

In response to Muzwell's comment:

...I disagree with the notion that intimidation is what's missing from the defense. It's the lack of depth in coverage ability coupled with an inconsistent pass rush. Flacco had all damn day back there and when Talib went out, guys were wide open.

Talib (again assuming he's back) and Dennard are both injury risks, if one of them is out, the replacements are not adequate.  I don't care if Ronnie Lott, Rodney Harrison, Steve Atwater and John Lynch is your rotation at safety, your pass defense is going to be inadequate if your CBs can't cover anybody.

Likewise, Jared Allen (or a reasonable facsimile) would improve the pass defense more than a hard hitting safety.

 

 

+and -1

 

While a great pass rush definitely improves coverage, the intimidator over the middle seals the deal. The great state of Texas brings plenty of heat (D Ware / JJ Watt ) to opposing QB's but even I would feel safe as a WR catching balls in front of their safeties. Call me greedy but I want both. Someone to pair Opp. Jones...Someone to "enhance" Big Vince in the middle and a thumper to let them know "whats up" if the DO catch the ball !!!!

Consensus draftwise seems to be Elam but my money is on Jonathan Cyprien to be the guy we talk about in 5 yrs....

 

I guess I look at an intimidating safety as something nice to have rather than a necessity in this era of passing football. Corners, on the other hand, are an absolute must have like starting pitching and a hot goalie in the playoffs. Same goes with pass rushers, can't have too many of them. 

Ed Reed might be the best safety ever, and although he is/was a physical player, his best attributes are his coverage ability and his instincts in the passing game.

Guys like Lott, Lynch and Harrison are great, but very rare.  You reach for one of them and you end up with  the next Meriweather.  Not only that, but the NFL is legislating those guys out of the league anyway. Ronnie Lott would be suspended half the time.

In response to Muzwell's comment:

re

"I guess I look at an intimidating safety as something nice to have rather than a necessity in this era of passing football. Corners, on the other hand, are an absolute must have like starting pitching and a hot goalie in the playoffs. Same goes with pass rushers, can't have too many of them. "

in total agreement

Some really good input from everyone I see and if I may, one last rebuttal.  Most of the people here seem to put SS as a need but just not as high as me.  Let me clarify again why I think BB will also put it as priority. The folks that seem to disagree are in the DT and DE camp and let me make my case for those not being priority. #1 - C.Jones. If not for his setback, I believe he easily gets double digit sacks. He was raw and still performed his duties well and will only be better next year. BB also spent a decent pick on Bequette who is expected to provide a pass rush. Combine that with Nink, Francis, Cunningham, and the newest CFL guy, what kind of money do you see BB spending there?? Be realistic.

The Other camp is the DT camp and I would def. agree this spot needs an upgrade but just not sure how much money can be put into it. BB got burnt trying to land his inside pass rusher with the Fanene guy and I doubt he goes in again the same way. BB always learns from mistakes and so I expect a much lower level signing for a DT and more likely they spend a 1st round pick on a DT if he is too good to pass up. So this is why I say maybe DT would be ahead but only because Linemen are usually taken in the 1st as opposed to S. I really dont think any rookie safety can come in and help right away form where we pick.

Wr, Well I put that high, but does BB? As much as I want to move on from Wes, I have no idea how BB feels. He may offer him a lower 3 year deal now that he has shown some age this past year. It is very possible that BB just retains Wes and comes back with Edleman and Lloyd. Dissapointing but very possible IMO. I have given up on any rookie WR making an impact so I wont even speak about the prospects. Tate, Price, they were all shown the door too early IMO. Why couldnt we keep Tate as a 4th WR and returner?

Soo, its not that I dont agree that there are bigger needs, I just dont think BB is gonna overhaul every position. If he doesnt like the stiffs on the D line, he sure has kept them around long enough. I do see more lineman here in august, just dont see any Big name signing and more likely a draft pick who will have to earn his spot.

 

I also wanted to clarify something I heard echoed on a lot of posts here about "pass rushers"  Such a sexy word isnt it? Now I understand noone was happy with the lack of pressure on Flacco and some of that can attributed to C.Jones not playing but everyone was high on Francis,Scott, etc, but those guys are Jags who makes plays vs bad teams but dont count on them in playoffs. Does anyone remember watching Flacco the week before? Denver has Von Miller and Dumervill which is likely one the best pass rushing duo's out there and they NEVER SNIFFED FLacco! So my point is, pass rushers dont ALWAYS make the difference. How many times has our O-line stymied some of the best rushers? Even if you have the best, QBs are STILL gonna complete some passes. C.Jones would not have made the difference IMO and thats why you need someone to make WR's pay for catching balls. Ive never seen a QB NOT complete ONE pass due to ferocious pass rush. Like I said, Flacco was untouched by Miller so you do the math. Great O-line can put pass rushers at bay. Get a SS to Cover TE's and HIT WRs in the mouth. It will go a LONG WAY! 

I think Ed Reed could be a one year fix if he doesnt get his ring this w/e. He is really a FS but atleast he knows how the lay the wood. For those saying SS's are outlawed now and penalties..etc, tell that to Pollard who had no problem getting an early flag to set the tone. Rodney did it and I bet every NFL coach will tell you they take the 15 yarder too if it helps set the tone. Aint nothing changed so while u guys keep saying, I just dont see it. Guys will continue to light guys up and get flags because its part of the game. Sorry I dont agree there. Lets watch sunday and see.

The #1 piority is another pass rusher - the defense STILL doesn't put any pressure on opposing QBs.  7 straight seasons of that.

 

#2 will be a young OL

#3 will be a WR that can actually be a deep threat, get separation, etc

 

 

In response to quinzpatsfan's comment:

I agree but the problem is does anyone trust BB to get it right?? I mean how many spots we gonna waste? Everyone forget about Dowling?? Are we supposed to use ANOTHER 2nd round pick? I dont trust BB to get it right. Look forward to some bottom feeders from Free agency after JUne 1st to replace the bums we have now. Some one over 30 and not wanted by anyone else..  Lets be realistic

In response to Schumpeters-Ghost's comment:

 

The #1 piority is another pass rusher - the defense STILL doesn't put any pressure on opposing QBs.  7 straight seasons of that.

 

#2 will be a young OL

#3 will be a WR that can actually be a deep threat, get separation, etc

 

 

 

 

 

How did Miller and Dumerville do with the pass  rush??  BB drafted 2 last year and still has Francis, Cunningham?, Scott?, Nink, CFL guy and you think he is gonna do what? Spend on a big free agent? or draft another?? I see NEITHER happening. Be realistic man. Pass rushers dont mean Sh*t if the other team has a mammoth line like Bmore.

 

Brady didnt get sacked ONCE in our game and yet we are sitting at home. Pass rush wasnt the reason we got beat. It was being outphysicaled(sp) and being intimitaded in the passing game by their headhunter. Dropped passes and not sacks did us in. Besides the Giants who have 4 guys on their 4 man line who can rush, we usually never lose because we cant block ONE guy.

How is it "unrealistic" to want more pass rush?

The Pats haven't had a pass rush in 7 years! 

 

You can sign safeties and CBs and it won't matter if they have to cover forver because the Pats have no pass rush.

 

In response to Schumpeters-Ghost's comment:

Wow....are you reading my posts? I said its unrealistic because BB  just spent 2 pics on that position last year. Has since gotten Francis, and another CFL linebacker as well as Nink, Cunningham so why do you think BB is gonna upgrade and how does he do it? Is it via big name free agent or draft and if so, what pic? Im all for pass rush, but please tell me how you do this with short money and small number of pics and multiple needs?

This post has been removed.

I'd put myself more in the "corner first" camp.  That may be solved by signing Talib--but if we don't sign him, a second corner alongside Dennard becomes a huge priority.  We also need to deal with the third corner position (increasingly important in today's NFL) since Arrington is a free agent. 

I also think RT and WR are critical because we have too few bodies at either of those positions with Vollmer and Welker both being free agents.  We've got to re-sign Vollmer or find someone else to be a starting RT (it's a critical position and I don't think Cannon is ready to step in).  And for WR, right now all we have is Lloyd, Slater, and Aiken.  You can't go into next season with just those three!

Safety is probably next in priority.  We do have two of them signed who are good enough to start--Gregory and McCourty--which is why I rank safety a slightly lower priority than CB, RT, and WR.  But it's close, particularly when you look at how poor our depth is.  Bringing in a third starter-quality guy (so Gregory possibly becomes the back-up) would be huge.

I think DL (interior and edge) remains an area where we want to improve, but one where we have enough guys signed to compete, so it's not in quite the same desperate situation the defensive backfield is in or the WR corp.  I think you can also look at LBs--particularly coverage guys or OLBs who can rush and cover--and interior O line as positions where improvement would be helpful.  

Looking at the other positions, I think we're more than set at MLB types, we need to sign Ballard and maybe Hoo to add depth at TE, and we can think about re-signing Woodhead at RB.  Still, all these positions, plus QB, seem okay to me.   

 

In response to bredbru's comment:

Enlighten me then.  You keep saying there were these top coaches we should have brought in.  Who are they?  More importantly every criticism I have ever seen you post about McDaniels has been about ignoring the run game and getting Brady killed which obviously was not relevant to the Baltimore game.  Care to actually elaborate on your vague proclamations or are you content to assume that I am too stupid to understand your vast football wisdom.

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

Cant disagree with much here. My HOPE is that they put apriority on a Big WR who can be physical, but my gut tells me they resign Wes and come back with the same crew. I dont trust that they will play a rookie and thats the problem. As long as wes is here, TB is not gonna waste too much time getting a rook up to speed. He will if he has no choice. I dont see Pats spending real # 1 WR money after getting lloyd, they probably consider him a # 1 and I dont. So I agree with you but I know BB's frugal approach too and SS seems the only cheap option to upgrade thats important to me.

In response to TripleOG's comment:

In a perfect world, I'd like Welker to come back and also have a big, fast WR signed.  I just think that will be too expensive.  I have a feeling they will let Welker leave because of his cost, re-sign Edelman as a poor man's Welker, and then try to get a bigger, downfield receiver as well.  My question is whether  that bigger, downfield guy is going to be a bargain guy or whether BB will sign a top free agent or use a high draft pick to get a real number one (I agree Lloyd is a number two).  If they let Welker walk, I hope they get top quality in another receiver, but I'm not sure they'll want to use significant cap space or a high draft pick for a top-level receiver, given all the needs on defense.  I guess I think it's more likely that they'll use their high picks or cap dollars to get a quality DB (corner or safety or both).  I'd be okay with that too. 

 

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

 

I'd put myself more in the "corner first" camp.  That may be solved by signing Talib--but if we don't sign him, a second corner alongside Dennard becomes a huge priority.  We also need to deal with the third corner position (increasingly important in today's NFL) since Arrington is a free agent. 

I also think RT and WR are critical because we have too few bodies at either of those positions with Vollmer and Welker both being free agents.  We've got to re-sign Vollmer or find someone else to be a starting RT (it's a critical position and I don't think Cannon is ready to step in).  And for WR, right now all we have is Lloyd, Slater, and Aiken.  You can't go into next season with just those three!

....

 

I definitely concur with CB first, even if Talib stays.  Depth there is critical and right now they have none. I'd bring Arrington back, he's useful in the slot and on STs.

WR is the most interesting spot, because it's so fluid. It's not inconceivable that of all the WRs on the roster this year, Slater is the only one back.  Remember when they had like eight or nine receivers in camp last year?  Jeesh.  

I believe Welker will be back, mainly because I just don't think there will be a big demand for him. I don't see them paying him anything close to what he wanted last year though, and if someone comes along with that kind of offer, he will be gone. They can sign an Amendola for a lot less than that.

I'm somewhat convinced that Lloyd will not be back. He's got a cap number that is rather large considering his limited impact. I don't think he was Ocho Cinco lousy or anything, but his production is replaceable. 

Branch is (hopefully) gone, Edelman could be too (hope not).  

In response to TripleOG's comment:

lets address what you say right here:

"Some really good input from everyone I see and if I may, one last rebuttal.  Most of the people here seem to put SS as a need but just not as high as me.  Let me clarify again why I think BB will also put it as priority. The folks that seem to disagree are in the DT and DE camp and let me make my case for those not being priority. #1 - C.Jones. If not for his setback, I believe he easily gets double digit sacks. He was raw and still performed his duties well and will only be better next year. BB also spent a decent pick on Bequette who is expected to provide a pass rush. Combine that with Nink, Francis, Cunningham, and the newest CFL guy, what kind of money do you see BB spending there?? Be realistic."

the pass rush has killed the defense.

expecting that it be better is something you cannot do. you have to make an effor to improve it.

we get no rush against a team like balt. in the playoffs or agaiosnt good o lines.

you just cant do that against decent qbs/offenses

#1 thing the pats have to do to improve (outside of better coaching which has killed their sbs/and this afc championship game) is get a legit pass rush wiht 4 men

 

In response to Muzwell's comment:

 

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

 

I'd put myself more in the "corner first" camp.  That may be solved by signing Talib--but if we don't sign him, a second corner alongside Dennard becomes a huge priority.  We also need to deal with the third corner position (increasingly important in today's NFL) since Arrington is a free agent. 

I also think RT and WR are critical because we have too few bodies at either of those positions with Vollmer and Welker both being free agents.  We've got to re-sign Vollmer or find someone else to be a starting RT (it's a critical position and I don't think Cannon is ready to step in).  And for WR, right now all we have is Lloyd, Slater, and Aiken.  You can't go into next season with just those three!

....

 

I definitely concur with CB first, even if Talib stays.  Depth there is critical and right now they have none. I'd bring Arrington back, he's useful in the slot and on STs.

WR is the most interesting spot, because it's so fluid. It's not inconceivable that of all the WRs on the roster this year, Slater is the only one back.  Remember when they had like eight or nine receivers in camp last year?  Jeesh.  

I believe Welker will be back, mainly because I just don't think there will be a big demand for him. I don't see them paying him anything close to what he wanted last year though, and if someone comes along with that kind of offer, he will be gone. They can sign an Amendola for a lot less than that.

I'm somewhat convinced that Lloyd will not be back. He's got a cap number that is rather large considering his limited impact. I don't think he was Ocho Cinco lousy or anything, but his production is replaceable. 

Branch is (hopefully) gone, Edelman could be too (hope not).  

 

I definitely concur with CB first, even if Talib stays.  Depth there is critical and right now they have none.

 

thats where im with you, maybe not first, got to have pass rusher in fa or draft.

and need for big wr

they keep edelman.

arrington should be upgraded

In response to Muzwell's comment:

I agree about bringing Arrington back.  I don't want him to be a starting corner, but I don't mind him as a third corner, and he's still an excellent special teamer.    

Interesting idea about Lloyd.  I assume he'll be back, but I guess I could see them letting him walk (or trading him?) if they could get a better combination of players at that position. They are almost building the WR position from the ground up, so I think you're right to anticipate some bold moves there.  

 

Unless you can find someone completely special, you don't build a defense by looking for a strong safety.

Strong safeties have to be lightweight and yet they have to tackle running backs.  As a rule they get injured and they wear down quickly.  At least cornerbacks are often downfield making shoestring tackles of fairly lightweight, vulnerable wide receivers.  If you draft a big fat nose tackle you get almost four years out of him because everybody else will rebound off of him like pins off of a bowling ball, but a strong safety is going to live on the sidelines for a full two of those four years. 

BB just drafted Tavon Wilson.  Expect him to be the starting strong safety after he gets a year or two of experience under his belt.

Don't understand our assessment of safeties, free or strong. We let Ihedigbo go and before Pollard, he started for them. We kep Chung on our roster and he just can't play.

Pollard was available after stints with KC and Houston - he took out or key players at these stops and at Balt. so why not sign him? Why not another Harrison instead these pretenders we have a safety? 

The early decade SB champs featured a great secondary of Law, Smith, Harrison and Wilson.

 

I'm afraid we have lost the ability to judge good secondary talent.

 

 

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

Sorry, but LLoyd is not the answer.

2.43 YAC and only caught 56% of his passes.  50% In the post season.

180 YAC total compared to Welkers 619.  Gronk had 305 with 20 less catches than lloyd

Only caught 10 passes over 20 compared to WW's 13, and Gronks 13 with 6 less games.

Need better than that.