Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from jimmytantric. Show jimmytantric's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    Been saying it for a while. Positions of NEED in order:  Safety that can COVER; next a DEEP threat receiver and big; next a LB that can Cover; next a CB or Dlineman that can get to the QB, then some Mauler OLineman.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    Lets see, we lead the entire NFL in interceptions two seasons ago, ranked #2 last year and were tied for 4th this season.

    Two seasons ago we ranked 14th in the NFL in sacks, last year 14th, this year 15th again...

    We get no push on the interior at all, we have and have had good edge rushers over the past three years, that's not the problem, pass rush doesn't happen in a vacuum.  You can't just place warm bodies along the interior of the defensive line and think that will free up the outside rushers.  

    When we were a dominant championship defense we had three #1 draft picks across our interior, we always had a mountain at nose in Washington or Keith Traylor or Wilfork and powerful ends like Seymour and the Warrens.

    We always have a talent laden defensive backfield but when you can't collapse a pocket you will allow opposing QB's all day to throw.  All of our sacks this season were coverage sacks because our backfield had blanket coverage and Nink or Jones finally worked their way free and got to the QB. Does anybody want to find the stats for how long QB's have to throw and where the Pats rank, my eyeball test tells me we stink and the 49ers and Ravens don't.

    Insisting we need more backfield help (assuming we sign Talib) or edge rushers is like trying to cure yourself after you've already gotten sick, getting more beef upfront is preventative medicine.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from palookaski. Show palookaski's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    Lets see, we lead the entire NFL in interceptions two seasons ago, ranked #2 last year and were tied for 4th this season.

    Two seasons ago we ranked 14th in the NFL in sacks, last year 14th, this year 15th again...

    We get no push on the interior at all, we have and have had good edge rushers over the past three years, that's not the problem, pass rush doesn't happen in a vacuum.  You can't just place warm bodies along the interior of the defensive line and think that will free up the outside rushers.  

    When we were a dominant championship defense we had three #1 draft picks across our interior, we always had a mountain at nose in Washington or Keith Traylor or Wilfork and powerful ends like Seymour and the Warrens.

    We always have a talent laden defensive backfield but when you can't collapse a pocket you will allow opposing QB's all day to throw.  All of our sacks this season were coverage sacks because our backfield had blanket coverage and Nink or Jones finally worked their way free and got to the QB. Does anybody want to find the stats for how long QB's have to throw and where the Pats rank, my eyeball test tells me we stink and the 49ers and Ravens don't.

    Insisting we need more backfield help (assuming we sign Talib) or edge rushers is like trying to cure yourself after you've already gotten sick, getting more beef upfront is preventative medicine.

     

     

    Good one Woz. Begin there with the big tough DT first to collapse the pocket. It starts there. Just hope he turns out to be a great one. Every split second counts on D, makes them all better.

    The D is missing only a couple of key difference makers. I would go with all D again this years draft. 

    Enjoy your post. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to jimmytantric's comment:

    Been saying it for a while. Positions of NEED in order:  Safety that can COVER; next a DEEP threat receiver and big; next a LB that can Cover; next a CB or Dlineman that can get to the QB, then some Mauler OLineman.



    i like.... save for the order and change cb or clineman to "and"

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    BB tends to adjust his priorities based on the actual talent available.  Even if he wants a corner more than an end, he'll take an end he thinks is great before he takes a corner he thinks is just average.  

     



    This.  Belichick really wanted Steven Jackson in 2004, but ended up taking Wilfork because he couldn't believe he was still available when we got him.  Jackson ended up going 3 picks later.

     




    one of the things he learned from parcells/young: u take the best athlete/player available regardless of position or need sometimes-builds depth and u can move a great athlete to another position which is one of the advantages of this move

    of course i cite this to rusty ad nauseum but he conveniently ignores it or points out how bellichick invented this type of drafting while inventing the forward pass

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from 42AND46. Show 42AND46's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    In response to leatherhelmet's comment:

     

     

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

    ...I disagree with the notion that intimidation is what's missing from the defense. It's the lack of depth in coverage ability coupled with an inconsistent pass rush. Flacco had all damn day back there and when Talib went out, guys were wide open.

    Talib (again assuming he's back) and Dennard are both injury risks, if one of them is out, the replacements are not adequate.  I don't care if Ronnie Lott, Rodney Harrison, Steve Atwater and John Lynch is your rotation at safety, your pass defense is going to be inadequate if your CBs can't cover anybody.

    Likewise, Jared Allen (or a reasonable facsimile) would improve the pass defense more than a hard hitting safety.

     

     

    +and -1

     

    While a great pass rush definitely improves coverage, the intimidator over the middle seals the deal. The great state of Texas brings plenty of heat (D Ware / JJ Watt ) to opposing QB's but even I would feel safe as a WR catching balls in front of their safeties. Call me greedy but I want both. Someone to pair Opp. Jones...Someone to "enhance" Big Vince in the middle and a thumper to let them know "whats up" if the DO catch the ball !!!!

    Consensus draftwise seems to be Elam but my money is on Jonathan Cyprien to be the guy we talk about in 5 yrs....

     



    I guess I look at an intimidating safety as something nice to have rather than a necessity in this era of passing football. Corners, on the other hand, are an absolute must have like starting pitching and a hot goalie in the playoffs. Same goes with pass rushers, can't have too many of them. 

    Ed Reed might be the best safety ever, and although he is/was a physical player, his best attributes are his coverage ability and his instincts in the passing game.

    Guys like Lott, Lynch and Harrison are great, but very rare.  You reach for one of them and you end up with  the next Meriweather.  Not only that, but the NFL is legislating those guys out of the league anyway. Ronnie Lott would be suspended half the time.



    overstated nonsense based on myth

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to 42AND46's comment:

    In response to Muzwell's comment:

     

     

    ...Guys like Lott, Lynch and Harrison are great, but very rare.  You reach for one of them and you end up with  the next Meriweather.  Not only that, but the NFL is legislating those guys out of the league anyway. Ronnie Lott would be suspended half the time.

     



    overstated nonsense based on myth

     



    I liked watching Lott as much as the next guy, but Lott made his living decapitating guys. You can't do that anymore. The only myth is you need one of those types to win.  It's nice to have, but far less essential than coverage and pressure on the QB.

    Who is the gold standard Ronnie Lott type safety that we all wish we had that would cure all the ills of the defense?  Bernard Fing Pollard? Get real, the guy is a journeyman who's never even sniffed a Pro Bowl. He's about the 25th best safety in the NFL. 

    Go back and look at the game, they were shutting them down when Talib went out, and it was all downhill from there because Arrington can't cover anybody and they got no pressure. If you can't do one, you better be able to do the other pretty darn well.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    Lets see, we lead the entire NFL in interceptions two seasons ago, ranked #2 last year and were tied for 4th this season.

    Two seasons ago we ranked 14th in the NFL in sacks, last year 14th, this year 15th again...

    We get no push on the interior at all, we have and have had good edge rushers over the past three years, that's not the problem, pass rush doesn't happen in a vacuum.  You can't just place warm bodies along the interior of the defensive line and think that will free up the outside rushers.  

    When we were a dominant championship defense we had three #1 draft picks across our interior, we always had a mountain at nose in Washington or Keith Traylor or Wilfork and powerful ends like Seymour and the Warrens.

    We always have a talent laden defensive backfield but when you can't collapse a pocket you will allow opposing QB's all day to throw.  All of our sacks this season were coverage sacks because our backfield had blanket coverage and Nink or Jones finally worked their way free and got to the QB. Does anybody want to find the stats for how long QB's have to throw and where the Pats rank, my eyeball test tells me we stink and the 49ers and Ravens don't.

    Insisting we need more backfield help (assuming we sign Talib) or edge rushers is like trying to cure yourself after you've already gotten sick, getting more beef upfront is preventative medicine.



    We would definitely benefit from a better D line. But I wouldn't call our defensive backfield "talent laden" when Arrington and Cole are starting at corner.  Without Dennard and Talib this year, that backfield would have been horrendous.  If we don't sign Talib (or an equivalent corner) it will be back to horrendous again. 

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, Wozzy, on what BB does with the current set of LBs and DLs if he reverts to a 3-4 approach.  Wilfork would clearly be the nose.  Size wise, the candidates for 3-4 DE would be Deaderick, Love, Forston, Pryor, and maybe Armstead--but are any of those guys strong 3-4 DEs?

    For 3-4 OLBs, you've got a bunch of candidates, I guess--Bequette, Jones, Nink, Francis, Cunningham, maybe Hightower--but how many of those can play standing up and drop into coverage?  Nink and Hightower for sure, but what about the others?  Do players like Jones end up being just situational pass rushers?

    I do think our MLBs are well suited for a 3-4--Spikes, Mayo, and Hightower all fit that role well, I think, maybe better than 4-3 OLB, which is what Mayo and Hightower are playing now.  

    Honestly, though, I think it's more likely that BB keeps headed in a 4-3 direction and just tries to shore up the interior DT position, sticking with Jones, Nink, Francis, etc. at DE and maybe bringing in another rotational LB who has better coverage skills than our present starters.  I don't really have any preference for 3-4 or 4-3--I think it all depends on what talent you have.  It's an iterative process adopting scheme to talent and talent to scheme, but BB is a master at doing that, adjusting scheme if he can't get the right talent or picking up the additional players he needs to complete his squad and make the most promising scheme for his existing talent work.  

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from SilverSun. Show SilverSun's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    At safety, I'd let Chung walk - and help him out the door if necessary.  Kenny Phillips of the U and NY Giants would be a geat addition, imo, and we know that BB likes to raid the Gmen when he can.  Signing Talib is critical to secondary, also. 

    To those who say intimidators can play in today's NFL - two words for you guys - Bernard Pollard!!!!!!!

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

    We would definitely benefit from a better D line. But I wouldn't call our defensive backfield "talent laden" when Arrington and Cole are starting at corner.  Without Dennard and Talib this year, that backfield would have been horrendous.  If we don't sign Talib (or an equivalent corner) it will be back to horrendous again. 

     

    I'd be interested to hear your thoughts, Wozzy, on what BB does with the current set of LBs and DLs if he reverts to a 3-4 approach.  Wilfork would clearly be the nose.  Size wise, the candidates for 3-4 DE would be Deaderick, Love, Forston, Pryor, and maybe Armstead--but are any of those guys strong 3-4 DEs?

    For 3-4 OLBs, you've got a bunch of candidates, I guess--Bequette, Jones, Nink, Francis, Cunningham, maybe Hightower--but how many of those can play standing up and drop into coverage?  Nink and Hightower for sure, but what about the others?  Do players like Jones end up being just situational pass rushers?

    I do think our MLBs are well suited for a 3-4--Spikes, Mayo, and Hightower all fit that role well, I think, maybe better than 4-3 OLB, which is what Mayo and Hightower are playing now.  

    Honestly, though, I think it's more likely that BB keeps headed in a 4-3 direction and just tries to shore up the interior DT position, sticking with Jones, Nink, Francis, etc. at DE and maybe bringing in another rotational LB who has better coverage skills than our present starters.  I don't really have any preference for 3-4 or 4-3--I think it all depends on what talent you have.  It's an iterative process adopting scheme to talent and talent to scheme, but BB is a master at doing that, adjusting scheme if he can't get the right talent or picking up the additional players he needs to complete his squad and make the most promising scheme for his existing talent work.  

     

     



     

    Every argument has a caveat (without Dennard/Talib?) but they did have these players and they did lead the league in INT's or are in the top 5 consistantly even without these two.  How good would this defense have been with a top 5 pass rush?  

    It's long been my contention that this defense was not going to be dominant again until they had the talent to field a 3 man front.  Defensive tackles are not sexy picks, they don't jump off the stat sheet, but when you have them other players and position groups thrive.

    We have the talent now to field more three man fronts, with the addition of Armstead and hopefully another true DT/NT they could field a monster defense.  Wilfork at nose, Love/Deaderick at one end and Armstead/player x/Seymour type at the other end.  They would start Mayo and Spikes inside and play Ninck and Hightower at outside linebacker on early passing downs and insert Jones at OLB to rush the passer.  Willie McGinest was not much of a coverage linebacker either but like Jones would rush the passer 90% of the time and down near the goal line he is too tall to pass over even if he doesn't get to the QB.

    In the old days they would also insert a lighter pass rush end in like Bobby Hamilton, who's contemporary would be Francis or even Jones on passing third downs.  I could see over the past few years that we didn't necessarily have the talent to run these schemes but its been to our detriment.  Our linebackers can cover as well as any linebacker corp in the NFL, the breakdowns in coverage happen because the D takes too long to get to the QB.

    I suggest those with Madden football, trade Welker for Seymour straight up and enjoy the dominance of Patriot defenses of old.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    Adrian Wilson was signed pretty quickly and before any other positon outside of two Cfl guys who most likely dont make it,

    toot toot :)

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    In response to TripleOG's comment:

    Adrian Wilson was signed pretty quickly and before any other positon outside of two Cfl guys who most likely dont make it,

    toot toot :)

     

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver



    This thread is completely unrelated to any discussion we're having right now.  I've always said we needed a true strong safety since Rodney's departure... so?

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Strong Safety should be HIGHEST Priority in offseason

    Wozzy, I know you appreciate a SS. I didnt bump this for you. I bumped because I saw it as I was going through old posts so I thought I would bump it because of all the fans who said "ss doesnt exist anymore" Ronnie Lott cant play in this era, you cant head hunt anymore,etc. Just a bunch of foolishness so I bumped this to remind them that BB did in fact consider SS a high priority and also drafted a  SS in the 3rd round. I agree with you on a lot Wozzy and having good D.Tackles and having an intimidator in the back end are 2 that we do agree on. No need to argue uneccesarilly...lol

     

    "Take care of my B*tch, I may need her back in a couple years"

    Brady to Manning after Wes signed with Denver

     
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