# Sums Up The Defense

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

In response to pezz4pats' comment:

Sorry, I was interrupted for awhile.

So you would be wrong, while the O did lose points pp over their RS Average and I would expect they would because limited plays due to time constraints, tend to lead to limited points. (which was 32 points per game, not 34 as 2 points per game were non-offensive scores and I had to look that up)  The D did worse.

-.475/ +.575

Convert the D's extra .575 per possession to points and that amounts to 4.5 points.  Ballgame! :}

PS Wozzy.  FG's count!  You and Rusty seem to have a real problem with that.  Wasn't the difference in the score, FG's?  Didn't the Pats win their games by FG's?  Oh, my!

And the Pats D gave up less points because they had less stops to make.  PERIOD!

Really, Really, Really, dumb argument.

There were only 4 defensive stands in the second half.  Two ended in FGs, one in a TD, and one in a punt that backed the offense up to the 8 yard line.  How does anyone possibly argue that the outcomes of those four drives were good?

Add in the fact that three of the four drives ate up at least 4.5 minutes each (total of 29 plays and 127 yards over those three drives) and the only drive that was an average length (2:49 minutes) was the 9-play 88 yard TD drive that had to be faster because it started with the Giants behind and with only 3:46 left in the game.  When you look at what the D actually did, there's no way to say their second-half performance was anything but dismal.  The offense also struggled mightily in the second half, but the defense doesn't get any awards either.

I can't say that the D was dismal because it was giving the O opportunities to maintain their lead or extend it. The fact that the D was eating up the clock could have worked in O's favor if the O could have put something together in the fourth quarter.  When a team has a lead they actually want to use up the clock.  The problem is, the O did nothing to help the cause, at the end.  If WW makes that catch or TB doesn't throw that interception, that probably changes everything.  It would have been wonderful if the D could have put a lid on it, but that wasn't their MO during the regular season.   The reality is that the D in Super Bowl 46 did the same thing that the team did in the Super Bowls that they won.  It gave up points late in the game.

But, it's over and done with...on to 2014.  With any luck, our D stays healthy to become a true shutdown kind of D and our O stays healthy so that it can be at its very best when the team makes it to the playoffs.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

So are you saying there's no correlation between an increase in points against and a worsening of passing defense?

The patriots have dipped down in quite a few categories; like rushing yards against.  They've held their own in terms of points against and takeaway/giveaway ratio.

Not sure where my other post went (or I forgot to hit the add button), but we often ignore matchups. In the playoffs, the competition is stonger and their is a higher chance of meeting a team that matches well against us. Those teams that can get to Brady using 3 DL AND can cover halfway decent have rendered the offense useless.....and the defense has to be THAT MUCH BETTER to keep the Patriots in those close games.

IMO, the Patriots have to be top 5 in points against, top 5 in red zone defense, top 5 in takeaway/giveaway ratio, top 10-15 in pass defense, and top 15-20 in rush defense.  The Patriots have added Revis and Browner.  Good start.  Need depth at SS.  Most importantly - this is the year the Patriots should do whatever they can to improve the pass rush (and on the other side of the ball, the OL has to keep opponents away from Brady; especially come playoff time).

AGAIN.... you keep bringing this back to the defense when I have repeatedly said the defense was absolutely average in every way.

Yet after 12 pages on this thread and years of denial Prolate has finally admitted what I wanted to hear, that turning the ball over twice and only scoring 14 points (less than half of the regular season average) on offense stinks....even if "not impressed with the offense" was all he could muster.

I'm sick to death of the "defense is to blame" garbage, the reality is the defense gave the offense numerous chances to win it, four possessions in the 4th and part of the third quarter, all they had to do was what the Giants were doing to us and what we did to win three rings in the first place, methodically convert first downs and eat up clock (LETTING OUR DEFENSE REST!!!!!) but the most the offense could summon was 3 and out punts and an interception.

Even if they scored field goals we would have won, if they scored a single touchdown we would have won, if they ate up the clock and didn't turn it over (we had a slim lead) the defense would have been rested and we likely would have won.... they couldn't.  They sucked just when we needed them most.

We needed the offense to be solid to win, we all knew that going in, the defense wasn't going to win it for us but they didn't lose it, the offense dropped a turd.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to wozzy's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

So are you saying there's no correlation between an increase in points against and a worsening of passing defense?

The patriots have dipped down in quite a few categories; like rushing yards against.  They've held their own in terms of points against and takeaway/giveaway ratio.

Not sure where my other post went (or I forgot to hit the add button), but we often ignore matchups. In the playoffs, the competition is stonger and their is a higher chance of meeting a team that matches well against us. Those teams that can get to Brady using 3 DL AND can cover halfway decent have rendered the offense useless.....and the defense has to be THAT MUCH BETTER to keep the Patriots in those close games.

IMO, the Patriots have to be top 5 in points against, top 5 in red zone defense, top 5 in takeaway/giveaway ratio, top 10-15 in pass defense, and top 15-20 in rush defense.  The Patriots have added Revis and Browner.  Good start.  Need depth at SS.  Most importantly - this is the year the Patriots should do whatever they can to improve the pass rush (and on the other side of the ball, the OL has to keep opponents away from Brady; especially come playoff time).

AGAIN.... you keep bringing this back to the defense when I have repeatedly said the defense was absolutely average in every way.

Yet after 12 pages on this thread and years of denial Prolate has finally admitted what I wanted to hear, that turning the ball over twice and only scoring 14 points (less than half of the regular season average) on offense stinks....even if "not impressed with the offense" was all he could muster.

I'm sick to death of the "defense is to blame" garbage, the reality is the defense gave the offense numerous chances to win it, four possessions in the 4th and part of the third quarter, all they had to do was what the Giants were doing to us and what we did to win three rings in the first place, methodically convert first downs and eat up clock (LETTING OUR DEFENSE REST!!!!!) but the most the offense could summon was 3 and out punts and an interception.

Even if they scored field goals we would have won, if they scored a single touchdown we would have won, if they ate up the clock and didn't turn it over (we had a slim lead) the defense would have been rested and we likely would have won.... they couldn't.  They sucked just when we needed them most.

We needed the offense to be solid to win, we all knew that going in, the defense wasn't going to win it for us but they didn't lose it, the offense dropped a turd.

"the offense dropped a turd."  Eloquent and to the point.  +1

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to wozzy's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

So are you saying there's no correlation between an increase in points against and a worsening of passing defense?

The patriots have dipped down in quite a few categories; like rushing yards against.  They've held their own in terms of points against and takeaway/giveaway ratio.

Not sure where my other post went (or I forgot to hit the add button), but we often ignore matchups. In the playoffs, the competition is stonger and their is a higher chance of meeting a team that matches well against us. Those teams that can get to Brady using 3 DL AND can cover halfway decent have rendered the offense useless.....and the defense has to be THAT MUCH BETTER to keep the Patriots in those close games.

IMO, the Patriots have to be top 5 in points against, top 5 in red zone defense, top 5 in takeaway/giveaway ratio, top 10-15 in pass defense, and top 15-20 in rush defense.  The Patriots have added Revis and Browner.  Good start.  Need depth at SS.  Most importantly - this is the year the Patriots should do whatever they can to improve the pass rush (and on the other side of the ball, the OL has to keep opponents away from Brady; especially come playoff time).

AGAIN.... you keep bringing this back to the defense when I have repeatedly said the defense was absolutely average in every way.

Yet after 12 pages on this thread and years of denial Prolate has finally admitted what I wanted to hear, that turning the ball over twice and only scoring 14 points (less than half of the regular season average) on offense stinks....even if "not impressed with the offense" was all he could muster.

I'm sick to death of the "defense is to blame" garbage, the reality is the defense gave the offense numerous chances to win it, four possessions in the 4th and part of the third quarter, all they had to do was what the Giants were doing to us and what we did to win three rings in the first place, methodically convert first downs and eat up clock (LETTING OUR DEFENSE REST!!!!!) but the most the offense could summon was 3 and out punts and an interception.

Even if they scored field goals we would have won, if they scored a single touchdown we would have won, if they ate up the clock and didn't turn it over (we had a slim lead) the defense would have been rested and we likely would have won.... they couldn't.  They sucked just when we needed them most.

We needed the offense to be solid to win, we all knew that going in, the defense wasn't going to win it for us but they didn't lose it, the offense dropped a turd.

"the offense dropped a turd."  Eloquent and to the point.  +1

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Cept if the O dropped a turd then the D WAS the turd that they carried throughout the game

Pure crap!

5. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

Re: Sums Up The Defense

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

OK, so the Patriots' O is not to blame for their lackluster performance.  It's not because the O played poorly (significantly below its seasonal average)...it's all because the Giants' D played so darn well!

On the other hand, the Patriots' D (which played to its seasonal average) is responsible for not performing better than their seasonal average because the Giants' O had no influence on the D's performance.

The fact is, the Patriots' D didn't "s*ck".  I'm not saying it did great, but it performed at its seasonal average.  As for the Patriots' O, well, it underperformed.  I'm certainly willing to credit the Giants' D with a fine performance, but I believe that the Patriots' O carries some responsibility.

Personally, I think people are just focusing way too much energy on who is responsible for the Super Bowl losses.  There are numerous variables that played a part in those two losses.  It's not all on the D and it's not all on the O.  Truthfully, the Patriots could have been 5-0 just as easily as they could have been 0-5 in those Super Bowls.  They came out 3-2.  Not too shabby.

Time to move on and focus on the coming season.  I won't be surprised if this team is adding another trip to the Super Bowl to its legacy, barring any serious injuries along the way.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

OK, so the Patriots' O is not to blame for their lackluster performance.  It's not because the O played poorly (significantly below its seasonal average)...it's all because the Giants' D played so darn well!

On the other hand, the Patriots' D (which played to its seasonal average) is responsible for not performing better than their seasonal average because the Giants' O had no influence on the D's performance.

The fact is, the Patriots' D didn't "s*ck".  I'm not saying it did great, but it performed at its seasonal average.  As for the Patriots' O, well, it underperformed.  I'm certainly willing to credit the Giants' D with a fine performance, but I believe that the Patriots' O carries some responsibility.

Personally, I think people are just focusing way too much energy on who is responsible for the Super Bowl losses.  There are numerous variables that played a part in those two losses.  It's not all on the D and it's not all on the O.  Truthfully, the Patriots could have been 5-0 just as easily as they could have been 0-5 in those Super Bowls.  They came out 3-2.  Not too shabby.

Time to move on and focus on the coming season.  I won't be surprised if this team is adding another trip to the Super Bowl to its legacy, barring any serious injuries along the way.

Agreed! I dont like blaming ONE unit either so I had to add some perspective and point out that the D gets payed too. My point was that our offense was NOT that dynamic once Gronk was out. Brady had Gronk in regular season, did not have him in the SB really so why do fans expect Brady to STILL put up 30 when his best weapon was out and the only option is a smurf, slot WR?  You guys are expecting Brady to still put up 30 without his best weapon AND with less posessions. It just does not make sense. The Defenses job is to get stops. I cant be mad at Brady when he had his team in the lead with that Chitty O line and 2 receiving options(A.H. and Wes) two guys who have proved to be unreliable since. Not to mention Wes, Branch, A.H. ALL dropped key passes on the last attempt drive.

I just think if you a defensive coach, genius, been in for 30 years, most consider you the best and you lost due to your D not getting off the field....well....

We used to beat on Indy in the same fashion and we shutdown the greatest show on turf for 3 quarters. All Im saying is...Thats because we had more  talent more so than BB forgetting how to coach.  BB knows this as he went and paid 12 million for one guy this offseason. Thats more than he paid every DB combined from last years roster...lol

So Cynical, we are in agreement mostly but some guys like True cant understand how the talent on D was meh that year and it was due to the GM who fired all his veteran safeties in one year to go with unknowns like Josh Barret and Sergio Brown and NOT addressing "pass rush" I know its over but I'm still scratching my head on that one. BUT such is life..you live n learn! Bring on the 2014 Season!

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TripleOG's comment:

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

OK, so the Patriots' O is not to blame for their lackluster performance.  It's not because the O played poorly (significantly below its seasonal average)...it's all because the Giants' D played so darn well!

On the other hand, the Patriots' D (which played to its seasonal average) is responsible for not performing better than their seasonal average because the Giants' O had no influence on the D's performance.

The fact is, the Patriots' D didn't "s*ck".  I'm not saying it did great, but it performed at its seasonal average.  As for the Patriots' O, well, it underperformed.  I'm certainly willing to credit the Giants' D with a fine performance, but I believe that the Patriots' O carries some responsibility.

Personally, I think people are just focusing way too much energy on who is responsible for the Super Bowl losses.  There are numerous variables that played a part in those two losses.  It's not all on the D and it's not all on the O.  Truthfully, the Patriots could have been 5-0 just as easily as they could have been 0-5 in those Super Bowls.  They came out 3-2.  Not too shabby.

Time to move on and focus on the coming season.  I won't be surprised if this team is adding another trip to the Super Bowl to its legacy, barring any serious injuries along the way.

Agreed! I dont like blaming ONE unit either so I had to add some perspective and point out that the D gets payed too. My point was that our offense was NOT that dynamic once Gronk was out. Brady had Gronk in regular season, did not have him in the SB really so why do fans expect Brady to STILL put up 30 when his best weapon was out and the only option is a smurf, slot WR?  You guys are expecting Brady to still put up 30 without his best weapon AND with less posessions. It just does not make sense. The Defenses job is to get stops. I cant be mad at Brady when he had his team in the lead with that Chitty O line and 2 receiving options(A.H. and Wes) two guys who have proved to be unreliable since. Not to mention Wes, Branch, A.H. ALL dropped key passes on the last attempt drive.

I just think if you a defensive coach, genius, been in for 30 years, most consider you the best and you lost due to your D not getting off the field....well....

We used to beat on Indy in the same fashion and we shutdown the greatest show on turf for 3 quarters. All Im saying is...Thats because we had more  talent more so than BB forgetting how to coach.  BB knows this as he went and paid 12 million for one guy this offseason. Thats more than he paid every DB combined from last years roster...lol

So Cynical, we are in agreement mostly but some guys like True cant understand how the talent on D was meh that year and it was due to the GM who fired all his veteran safeties in one year to go with unknowns like Josh Barret and Sergio Brown and NOT addressing "pass rush" I know its over but I'm still scratching my head on that one. BUT such is life..you live n learn! Bring on the 2014 Season!

I can live with that..."we are in agreement mostly".  It's good enough for me.  I have to say, though, I can't wait until we have some new material to discuss and argue about.  Or, depending on how these units perform this year, maybe we will have a lot more to agree on.  If this team could just stay relatively healthy, on both sides of the ball, I think we could have ourselves one very special year.  What is taking July so long to get here?

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

OK, so the Patriots' O is not to blame for their lackluster performance.  It's not because the O played poorly (significantly below its seasonal average)...it's all because the Giants' D played so darn well!

On the other hand, the Patriots' D (which played to its seasonal average) is responsible for not performing better than their seasonal average because the Giants' O had no influence on the D's performance.

The fact is, the Patriots' D didn't "s*ck".  I'm not saying it did great, but it performed at its seasonal average.  As for the Patriots' O, well, it underperformed.  I'm certainly willing to credit the Giants' D with a fine performance, but I believe that the Patriots' O carries some responsibility.

Personally, I think people are just focusing way too much energy on who is responsible for the Super Bowl losses.  There are numerous variables that played a part in those two losses.  It's not all on the D and it's not all on the O.  Truthfully, the Patriots could have been 5-0 just as easily as they could have been 0-5 in those Super Bowls.  They came out 3-2.  Not too shabby.

Time to move on and focus on the coming season.  I won't be surprised if this team is adding another trip to the Super Bowl to its legacy, barring any serious injuries along the way.

Agreed! I dont like blaming ONE unit either so I had to add some perspective and point out that the D gets payed too. My point was that our offense was NOT that dynamic once Gronk was out. Brady had Gronk in regular season, did not have him in the SB really so why do fans expect Brady to STILL put up 30 when his best weapon was out and the only option is a smurf, slot WR?  You guys are expecting Brady to still put up 30 without his best weapon AND with less posessions. It just does not make sense. The Defenses job is to get stops. I cant be mad at Brady when he had his team in the lead with that Chitty O line and 2 receiving options(A.H. and Wes) two guys who have proved to be unreliable since. Not to mention Wes, Branch, A.H. ALL dropped key passes on the last attempt drive.

I just think if you a defensive coach, genius, been in for 30 years, most consider you the best and you lost due to your D not getting off the field....well....

We used to beat on Indy in the same fashion and we shutdown the greatest show on turf for 3 quarters. All Im saying is...Thats because we had more  talent more so than BB forgetting how to coach.  BB knows this as he went and paid 12 million for one guy this offseason. Thats more than he paid every DB combined from last years roster...lol

So Cynical, we are in agreement mostly but some guys like True cant understand how the talent on D was meh that year and it was due to the GM who fired all his veteran safeties in one year to go with unknowns like Josh Barret and Sergio Brown and NOT addressing "pass rush" I know its over but I'm still scratching my head on that one. BUT such is life..you live n learn! Bring on the 2014 Season!

I can live with that..."we are in agreement mostly".  It's good enough for me.  I have to say, though, I can't wait until we have some new material to discuss and argue about.  Or, depending on how these units perform this year, maybe we will have a lot more to agree on.  If this team could just stay relatively healthy, on both sides of the ball, I think we could have ourselves one very special year.  What is taking July so long to get here?

Definitely!  I Feel the same way and it will be great to move on from the off/defense and experience nirvana for a change!  I agree that this team looks promising on paper barring health and sooner or later we gotta catch a break. I have not been this excited to go to camp in a while. I think its mainly due to Revis and addition of Collins last year who I believe will be difference makers on D. I am intrigued by Easley too who reminds me of a young John Randle!

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to wozzy's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

So are you saying there's no correlation between an increase in points against and a worsening of passing defense?

The patriots have dipped down in quite a few categories; like rushing yards against.  They've held their own in terms of points against and takeaway/giveaway ratio.

Not sure where my other post went (or I forgot to hit the add button), but we often ignore matchups. In the playoffs, the competition is stonger and their is a higher chance of meeting a team that matches well against us. Those teams that can get to Brady using 3 DL AND can cover halfway decent have rendered the offense useless.....and the defense has to be THAT MUCH BETTER to keep the Patriots in those close games.

IMO, the Patriots have to be top 5 in points against, top 5 in red zone defense, top 5 in takeaway/giveaway ratio, top 10-15 in pass defense, and top 15-20 in rush defense.  The Patriots have added Revis and Browner.  Good start.  Need depth at SS.  Most importantly - this is the year the Patriots should do whatever they can to improve the pass rush (and on the other side of the ball, the OL has to keep opponents away from Brady; especially come playoff time).

AGAIN.... you keep bringing this back to the defense when I have repeatedly said the defense was absolutely average in every way.

Yet after 12 pages on this thread and years of denial Prolate has finally admitted what I wanted to hear, that turning the ball over twice and only scoring 14 points (less than half of the regular season average) on offense stinks....even if "not impressed with the offense" was all he could muster.

I'm sick to death of the "defense is to blame" garbage, the reality is the defense gave the offense numerous chances to win it, four possessions in the 4th and part of the third quarter, all they had to do was what the Giants were doing to us and what we did to win three rings in the first place, methodically convert first downs and eat up clock (LETTING OUR DEFENSE REST!!!!!) but the most the offense could summon was 3 and out punts and an interception.

Even if they scored field goals we would have won, if they scored a single touchdown we would have won, if they ate up the clock and didn't turn it over (we had a slim lead) the defense would have been rested and we likely would have won.... they couldn't.  They sucked just when we needed them most.

We needed the offense to be solid to win, we all knew that going in, the defense wasn't going to win it for us but they didn't lose it, the offense dropped a turd.

Dude, I've been saying the offense played poorly in the 2011 Super Bowl since the night of the game.  Our disagreement has always been whether the issues on offense are the play calling or the talent and whether the defense performed well or not.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

Not in this thread, but I have given the Giants credit for outcoaching BB, their D for disrupting our offense, and for being able to play their kind of game.

In addition, some folks want to make this thread out like it is the only reason for our playoff losses.  I've been steadfast that it was all 3 phases of the game and coaching.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TripleOG's comment:

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

OK, so the Patriots' O is not to blame for their lackluster performance.  It's not because the O played poorly (significantly below its seasonal average)...it's all because the Giants' D played so darn well!

On the other hand, the Patriots' D (which played to its seasonal average) is responsible for not performing better than their seasonal average because the Giants' O had no influence on the D's performance.

The fact is, the Patriots' D didn't "s*ck".  I'm not saying it did great, but it performed at its seasonal average.  As for the Patriots' O, well, it underperformed.  I'm certainly willing to credit the Giants' D with a fine performance, but I believe that the Patriots' O carries some responsibility.

Personally, I think people are just focusing way too much energy on who is responsible for the Super Bowl losses.  There are numerous variables that played a part in those two losses.  It's not all on the D and it's not all on the O.  Truthfully, the Patriots could have been 5-0 just as easily as they could have been 0-5 in those Super Bowls.  They came out 3-2.  Not too shabby.

Time to move on and focus on the coming season.  I won't be surprised if this team is adding another trip to the Super Bowl to its legacy, barring any serious injuries along the way.

Agreed! I dont like blaming ONE unit either so I had to add some perspective and point out that the D gets payed too. My point was that our offense was NOT that dynamic once Gronk was out. Brady had Gronk in regular season, did not have him in the SB really so why do fans expect Brady to STILL put up 30 when his best weapon was out and the only option is a smurf, slot WR?  You guys are expecting Brady to still put up 30 without his best weapon AND with less posessions. It just does not make sense. The Defenses job is to get stops. I cant be mad at Brady when he had his team in the lead with that Chitty O line and 2 receiving options(A.H. and Wes) two guys who have proved to be unreliable since. Not to mention Wes, Branch, A.H. ALL dropped key passes on the last attempt drive.

I just think if you a defensive coach, genius, been in for 30 years, most consider you the best and you lost due to your D not getting off the field....well....

We used to beat on Indy in the same fashion and we shutdown the greatest show on turf for 3 quarters. All Im saying is...Thats because we had more  talent more so than BB forgetting how to coach.  BB knows this as he went and paid 12 million for one guy this offseason. Thats more than he paid every DB combined from last years roster...lol

So Cynical, we are in agreement mostly but some guys like True cant understand how the talent on D was meh that year and it was due to the GM who fired all his veteran safeties in one year to go with unknowns like Josh Barret and Sergio Brown and NOT addressing "pass rush" I know its over but I'm still scratching my head on that one. BUT such is life..you live n learn! Bring on the 2014 Season!

A very solid and sensible post right here.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to cyncalpatfan's comment:

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

In response to pezz4pats' comment:

Sorry, I was interrupted for awhile.

So you would be wrong, while the O did lose points pp over their RS Average and I would expect they would because limited plays due to time constraints, tend to lead to limited points. (which was 32 points per game, not 34 as 2 points per game were non-offensive scores and I had to look that up)  The D did worse.

-.475/ +.575

Convert the D's extra .575 per possession to points and that amounts to 4.5 points.  Ballgame! :}

PS Wozzy.  FG's count!  You and Rusty seem to have a real problem with that.  Wasn't the difference in the score, FG's?  Didn't the Pats win their games by FG's?  Oh, my!

And the Pats D gave up less points because they had less stops to make.  PERIOD!

Really, Really, Really, dumb argument.

There were only 4 defensive stands in the second half.  Two ended in FGs, one in a TD, and one in a punt that backed the offense up to the 8 yard line.  How does anyone possibly argue that the outcomes of those four drives were good?

Add in the fact that three of the four drives ate up at least 4.5 minutes each (total of 29 plays and 127 yards over those three drives) and the only drive that was an average length (2:49 minutes) was the 9-play 88 yard TD drive that had to be faster because it started with the Giants behind and with only 3:46 left in the game.  When you look at what the D actually did, there's no way to say their second-half performance was anything but dismal.  The offense also struggled mightily in the second half, but the defense doesn't get any awards either.

I can't say that the D was dismal because it was giving the O opportunities to maintain their lead or extend it. The fact that the D was eating up the clock could have worked in O's favor if the O could have put something together in the fourth quarter.  When a team has a lead they actually want to use up the clock.  The problem is, the O did nothing to help the cause, at the end.  If WW makes that catch or TB doesn't throw that interception, that probably changes everything.  It would have been wonderful if the D could have put a lid on it, but that wasn't their MO during the regular season.   The reality is that the D in Super Bowl 46 did the same thing that the team did in the Super Bowls that they won.  It gave up points late in the game.

But, it's over and done with...on to 2014.  With any luck, our D stays healthy to become a true shutdown kind of D and our O stays healthy so that it can be at its very best when the team makes it to the playoffs.

In 2003, there were games where the D was so in control it could let an opposing offense burn the clock down.  That really wasn't the case though in the Super Bowl.  With the offense struggling to score and holding just a one score lead, the D couldn't afford to let the Giants score 2 FGs and one TD on four drives. Honestly, the turning point in the game in my mind was when the Pats scored to start the second half and on the very next drive, instead of stopping the Giants and handing the ball back to an O that had some momentuum, the defense gave a long drive and FG.  Whatever momentuum the offense had after scoring two sraight TDs on consecutive drives was lost right there.  The Giants defense was able to regroup, and the O lost some of its fire.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

Wozzy and Cynical, I applaud you for attempting to reason with a wall. I just don't know where you find the energy?

[object HTMLDivElement]

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TrueChamp's comment:

Wozzy and Cynical, I applaud you for attempting to reason with a wall. I just don't know where you find the energy?

[object HTMLDivElement]

LOL!

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to DougIrwin's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

In response to TripleOG's comment:

Not once in this whole thread has anyone given ANY credit to the Defense of the Giants. Its like Wozzy, True, cynical ALL expect the Pats to just cruise through the SB and score the same 30 points they did in r.s. How about giving coach Coughlin credit for not stopping a potent offense once but TWICE( who on offense was missing in 07?) In the biggest game of the year and BB, being a "defensive genius" and Joshy being a young a55hat had no idea how to make adjustments. So yes its partly coaching but all we ever discuss is the pats coaching. The D coach went on to get a head coaching gig JUST based on shutting down our O, they did the same WAY BOTH times....Ball control! It wasnt coincidence, It was PLANNED. This is what Pezz points out and all you guys say is the O underperformed??  Well lets see, it was Brady and who else? Wes and his butterfingers? they were supposed to beat an 11 man defense pinning their ears back all game??!!  How about the GM have more options so that when ONE player goes down, your O does not s*ck?? Giants had THREE very good recieving options that allowed them to hit 75% on 40 passes....That is PATHETIC any way you slice it. Even still Brady was dead on for a good stretch until the Tuck hit injured his shoulder.

The Giants D played much better than their regular season average Sooo, why do people act like it was impossible for OUR D to anything but s*ck?!  Thats BS, they should have stepped up and played harder the same way the Giants did. Who was the Gaints lock down CB??  Corey Webster?!?!?  Cmon Man!  They spent all day on the field due to lack of talent BUT coaching should have made adjustments and blitzed or did SOMETHING rather than Lay down

"A lot of bookies are probably mad at us right now, but we don't give a damn, ... We're the champs!!"

Ty Law after his team defeated the Rams in SB 36.

Not in this thread, but I have given the Giants credit for outcoaching BB, their D for disrupting our offense, and for being able to play their kind of game.

In addition, some folks want to make this thread out like it is the only reason for our playoff losses.  I've been steadfast that it was all 3 phases of the game and coaching.

Lol!  Outcoaching bb??  Lol!  Dropped balls had nothing to do with coughlin doing any special coaching.

How stupid.

13 points allowed by the pats d and a welker catch and bb is yet again hailed a genius.

It was all right there for the offense to ice it.

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19 points, and........

the worst Pass D to ever play in a SB is Your boyfriends fault.

Did you know the 2011 D was on pace to be the worst D in 30 years????

Coincidentally, rivaling, the 91 Browns, coached by guess who?.

How does a defensive genius have such bad D's?    Doesn't seem possible.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

yes, outcoached.  BB didn't learn from the close win vs. Giants during the regular season. Noone thought the Giants would upset the Patriots like they did.  Coughlin outcoached BB.  Kept the game close, played Giants football....not Patriots football.

Oh, BB lost TWICE to Coughlin for the Lombardi.   LOL....too bad for you.  Best wipe da brown stuff of yer nose......lmao :)

Besides, you're the only person who thinks IT's ONLY BRADY's FAULT.......talk about a joke....

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to TrueChamp's comment:
[QUOTE]

Wozzy and Cynical, I applaud you for attempting to reason with a wall. I just don't know where you find the energy?

[object HTMLDivElement]

Whatever they (and you) do, reason ain't any part of it

20. This post has been removed.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to DougIrwin's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

yes, outcoached.  BB didn't learn from the close win vs. Giants during the regular season. Noone thought the Giants would upset the Patriots like they did.  Coughlin outcoached BB.  Kept the game close, played Giants football....not Patriots football.

Oh, BB lost TWICE to Coughlin for the Lombardi.   LOL....too bad for you.  Best wipe da brown stuff of yer nose......lmao :)

Besides, you're the only person who thinks IT's ONLY BRADY's FAULT.......talk about a joke....

Mainly the offense's fault, including brady's.  I am the only one? Teams win super bowls with 14 points from offense, huh?

Absolutely laughable.

You do know that in 2001, the Pats won the Super Bowl with their offense scoring just 13 points?

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

In response to DougIrwin's comment:

In response to OnlyDaTruth's comment:

yes, outcoached.  BB didn't learn from the close win vs. Giants during the regular season. Noone thought the Giants would upset the Patriots like they did.  Coughlin outcoached BB.  Kept the game close, played Giants football....not Patriots football.

Oh, BB lost TWICE to Coughlin for the Lombardi.   LOL....too bad for you.  Best wipe da brown stuff of yer nose......lmao :)

Besides, you're the only person who thinks IT's ONLY BRADY's FAULT.......talk about a joke....

Mainly the offense's fault, including brady's.  I am the only one? Teams win super bowls with 14 points from offense, huh?

Absolutely laughable.

You do know that in 2001, the Pats won the Super Bowl with their offense scoring just 13 points?

Thanks, That ought to buy us a couple days while he hides in his basement waiting for his post to hit the back page.....LOL!

Yet another face palm moment for Crusty the Clown!    Too bad the 11' D couldn't have scored like the 01' D did to offset such a horrible offensive output. Time for a new Shtick Rusty!

Shtick: 1.)a usually comic or repetitious performance or routine 2.)one's special trait, interest, or activity

Here I added this since I know you have vocabulary issues. I recall you trying to correct my word usage and I slapped you back then and you are still at it!  lol. This should help you Rusty....There is usually more than one definition for words. Brush up on merriam- webster when you get a chance eh'

23. This post has been removed.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

I could see if the coaching made no mistakes in the game, but even that aspect was off.  Time management fall squarely on the coaching staff.   There were no meaningful adjustments during the game.  Not one aspect of the team did well... in a close game mistakes add up.  The offense committed two major ones and the other parts of the team could not help out by making field position easier or stealing any type of momentum to turn the tide.

The Pats lost by bleeding out from 1000 cuts...  The giants coaching staff played their game in both super bowls.  Anyone who doubts it only has to look at how they were able to beat up on the Pats.  Their game plan worked so well the first time they doubled downed and won again!  We can all agree that plays have to be made on the field but a coaches job is to make the game easier and put the team in position to win.

Placing all the pressure on one side of the ball and hoping for a hold from the D does not cut it.  If the Pats D played aggressive and just got beat is one thing but all four quarters they played the same style and waited for the giants to make mistakes that never came.

Play calling and time management are the two things a coaching staff can control and they just did not do it well.

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Re: Sums Up The Defense

In response to csylvia79's comment:

I could see if the coaching made no mistakes in the game, but even that aspect was off.  Time management fall squarely on the coaching staff.   There were no meaningful adjustments during the game.  Not one aspect of the team did well... in a close game mistakes add up.  The offense committed two major ones and the other parts of the team could not help out by making field position easier or stealing any type of momentum to turn the tide.

The Pats lost by bleeding out from 1000 cuts...  The giants coaching staff played their game in both super bowl.  Anyone who doubts it only has to look at how they were able to beat up on the Pats.  Their game plan worked so well the first time the double downed and won again!  We can all agree that plays have to be made on the field but a coaches job is to make the game easier and put the team in position to win.

Placing all the pressure on one side of the ball and hoping for a hold from the D does not cut it.  If the Pats D played aggressive and just got beat that is one thing but all four quarters the played the same style and waited for the giants to make mistakes that never came.

Play calling and time management are the two things a coaching staff can control and they just did not do it well.

and, not just once......but twice.

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