Talent Matters

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Talent Matters

    A bit shell shocked after last night's loss, but in a way not totally surprised. Don't think I wanted to admit it to myself, but I was worried about the impact of the Gronk injury. All season I've been worried about the thinness of the receiving corp. Yes, the improved running game is a big plus for this team, but we're still a pass-first team in a league where great offenses have to pass well.  We need a diverse, high-quality selection of targets for Brady. Welker, Hernandez, and Lloyd all have great strengths but significant weaknesses too. Welker is a poor deep receiver (even when he beats the defender, he has trouble catching in full stride with his back to the ball). Hernandez is versatile, but also a tweener. Good at lots, not great at anything. And he's shown a tendency to get the dropsies at times. Lloyd seems to be good at one thing: catching the ball on the sideline (almost always while rolling on the ground negating any chance of YAC). Gronk gives us a beast with size and speed in the passing game and great blocking ability. Take him out of the equation, though, and this receiving corp looks not bad, but limited. I was never totally happy with the choice to keep four TEs and so few receivers.  With Branch, Gaffney, Stallworth, and Brit in camp, there was clearly an attempt to find a receiver to complement Lloyd and Welker. But they cut all of them. Maybe none was good enough (and i see that too) but they then should have been bringing in a parade of guys in the 53rd slot to find someone who could at least give them something of a threat deep. They shouldn't have stopped with Salas.

    As far as the defense goes, seeing guys like Arrington and Cole trying to defend legitimate NFL deep receivers like Boldin and Smith  (and how does a ground and pound team like Baltimore have two when we have none?) is disheartening. Enough of mediocre D backs. And especially when our LBs are all run guys who aren't much in coverage. (Pass rush probably needs to be mentioned too, but we'll save that for some other time.)

    Today's NFL is very much a passing league. How is it then, that we lack true wideouts on offense and have such limited coverage options on defense? When Talib went out last night, I had a sinking feeling that it was all over. As soon as Flacco started targeting Arrington and Cole repeatedly, it was clear where we were headed. Defense giving up lots of points. Offense without big play ability to come back. When losing just two guys--one on offense, Gronk, and one on defense, Talib-- causes the whole team to collapse, you are way too thin on talent.  We have a lot of talent issues on the team, but shoring up the pass offense and pass defense have to be right at the top because right now it feels like (when Gronk and Talib are out) everyone runs right past us and we can't run past anyone.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from jam757. Show jam757's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    We all tried to talk ourselves into the fact thalot he Pats could overcome the loss of Gronk who is the BEST TE in the league bar-none! This was a monumentally HUUUUUGE loss that proved to be impossible to overcome. Pair that with losing Talib who solidifies our whole defensive backfield and  the Pats were in BIG trouble. Still no excuse for getting blanked 21 zip in the second half but we need to have the full arsenal of weapons on the field against a team like Baltimore.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    The thing that really stood out to me was how many throws Flacco made where the receiver just went up and got it.  Other than Gronk we rely more on quick passes into tight windows and don't have anyone who can really go up for it like that.  Against most teams this works well, but against a defense that has the horses to cover everyone we just couldn't move the ball.  I thought the O-line did a tremendous job in pass protection, but guys just couldn't get open consistently.  This game felt a lot like the 2010 jets game.  I thought Lloyd was supposed to help in these kind of games, but he wasn't nearly as effective as he was in the earlier season matchup.  To me this game just verified that other than Brady, Gronk is by far the most important player on this offense when it comes to facing elite defenses.

     
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    Re: Talent Matters

    Remember when McD was going to save us from the terrible O'Brien.  Yeah so much for that.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from dapats1281. Show dapats1281's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    How much more talented are the Ravens than the Pats? They had an average at best corner in cary williams and a former special teamer in graham. They have an inside LB and FS who are past their prime. Suggs, Ngata and Ellerbe played through injuries.

    Torrie Smith is a good WR, but he isn't great. Same with Pitta at the TE position.

    Ravens flat out wanted it more than the Pats.

     
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  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from Benkarkis. Show Benkarkis's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to SUZUKIGSXR's comment:

    It's obvious that we can't rely on Gronk to be healty any more for a playoff run, so definetly more talent needs to be brought in. Would have rather had Gaffney over Branch but the Pats need a Julio Jones, Brandon Marshal type reciever. If the Pats didn't lose this week they would have been killed by the 49ers in the superbowl anyways, just like last year, if the Pats had played the Saints, as opposed to the Giants, they would have been steam rolled in the bowl, so bring in more talent Bill!




    Not only to be healthy but to have somebody BESIDES Gronk.  Clearly, Hernandez is not the answer and we paid him the BigBucks.  Hernandez needs Gronk.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    I have been preaching the Talent issue all night and part of today.  System players aren't cutting it anymore.  Not good enough to get over the top.  When it comes to big games against teams that actually have talent all over the field these system players can only do so much.  Time to change philosophy.  It's 2013 already.  The game has changed.  Talent is needed, the Patriots are loaded with system type players, it's time to get talented ones.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

    Remember when McD was going to save us from the terrible O'Brien.  Yeah so much for that.



    That was always BS in my opinion.  You are right, we just don't have receivers like Boldin or Smith or Crabtree or Jones or Jennings, etc . . .   When we have Gronk, we look a lot better, but we haven't had him in the final game last two years.

    We need other options.

     

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to dapats1281's comment:

    How much more talented are the Ravens than the Pats? They had an average at best corner in cary williams and a former special teamer in graham. They have an inside LB and FS who are past their prime. Suggs, Ngata and Ellerbe played through injuries.

    Torrie Smith is a good WR, but he isn't great. Same with Pitta at the TE position.

    Ravens flat out wanted it more than the Pats.



    It's not just quality of talent, it's diversity. We've got lots of guys who can excel in underneath zones. We don't have guys who challenge downfield like Smith and Boldin do. Given that our offense relies so much on the pass isn't that odd? There's some truth to the accusation our offense is gimmicky.  How do you try to build a dominant passing game without real wide outs? Our coaches are brilliant, and they come up with great schemes to utilize the talent we have extremely effectively, but sometimes we would be better off to have nore ordinary schemes and more conventional talent.

     

     
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    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    I have been preaching the Talent issue all night and part of today.  System players aren't cutting it anymore.  Not good enough to get over the top.  When it comes to big games against teams that actually have talent all over the field these system players can only do so much.  Time to change philosophy.  It's 2013 already.  The game has changed.  Talent is needed, the Patriots are loaded with system type players, it's time to get talented ones.



    Yep. Too much dependence on coaching, not enough on raw talent. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    Mediocre team with a HOF QB. We got about as far as you could ever hope the last couple of years with that.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to BabeParilli's comment:

    Mediocre team with a HOF QB. We got about as far as you could ever hope the last couple of years with that.



    Mediocre seems harsh on offense (incomplete is probably better). For much of the defense, mediocre might be too generous! We did improve on defense this year, but there's still quite a way to go.

     

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    I thought it was all about execution?

     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    A bit shell shocked after last night's loss, but in a way not totally surprised. Don't think I wanted to admit it to myself, but I was worried about the impact of the Gronk injury. All season I've been worried about the thinness of the receiving corp. Yes, the improved running game is a big plus for this team, but we're still a pass-first team in a league where great offenses have to pass well.  We need a diverse, high-quality selection of targets for Brady. Welker, Hernandez, and Lloyd all have great strengths but significant weaknesses too. Welker is a poor deep receiver (even when he beats the defender, he has trouble catching in full stride with his back to the ball). Hernandez is versatile, but also a tweener. Good at lots, not great at anything. And he's shown a tendency to get the dropsies at times. Lloyd seems to be good at one thing: catching the ball on the sideline (almost always while rolling on the ground negating any chance of YAC). Gronk gives us a beast with size and speed in the passing game and great blocking ability. Take him out of the equation, though, and this receiving corp looks not bad, but limited. I was never totally happy with the choice to keep four TEs and so few receivers.  With Branch, Gaffney, Stallworth, and Brit in camp, there was clearly an attempt to find a receiver to complement Lloyd and Welker. But they cut all of them. Maybe none was good enough (and i see that too) but they then should have been bringing in a parade of guys in the 53rd slot to find someone who could at least give them something of a threat deep. They shouldn't have stopped with Salas.

    As far as the defense goes, seeing guys like Arrington and Cole trying to defend legitimate NFL deep receivers like Boldin and Smith  (and how does a ground and pound team like Baltimore have two when we have none?) is disheartening. Enough of mediocre D backs. And especially when our LBs are all run guys who aren't much in coverage. (Pass rush probably needs to be mentioned too, but we'll save that for some other time.)

    Today's NFL is very much a passing league. How is it then, that we lack true wideouts on offense and have such limited coverage options on defense? When Talib went out last night, I had a sinking feeling that it was all over. As soon as Flacco started targeting Arrington and Cole repeatedly, it was clear where we were headed. Defense giving up lots of points. Offense without big play ability to come back. When losing just two guys--one on offense, Gronk, and one on defense, Talib-- causes the whole team to collapse, you are way too thin on talent.  We have a lot of talent issues on the team, but shoring up the pass offense and pass defense have to be right at the top because right now it feels like (when Gronk and Talib are out) everyone runs right past us and we can't run past anyone.




    I dont think Gronk was the main factor. This team went most the year w/out him and put up plenty of points. This is about failed execution in the clutch and not having enough talent. Look at Boldin and T.Smith and then compare them to Wes and Brandon. Sure Wes is a 1st down maker but there is no excusing his drops in the clutch. 2 years in a row now the pats have lost in the postseason and Wes had a lot to do with it. I understand he is also the reason for our success at times but this is why I didnt want to pay him all that money. He does alot but look how much it takes out of him. He is like the little engine that could. He always comes us short in the clutch when we need him and ditto for Lloyd. Dropped a ball that could extend a drive and like Felger said, if you wanna be paid like the best u  have to catch those and esp. the easy ones. This team got their *ss handed to them. They were flustered and we should be used to it and the defense held on early but wet the bed once Flacco pulled his guns out.  Humbling to say the least. I bet people may entertain that Larry Fitzgerald trade now and realize Mayo dissapears in postseason...smh  - This offense is all TIGHT ENDS who are injury prone! We need a Deep threat(cant believe I said that) but it showed Sunday.

     

    Pollard has now taken out our starting QB, WR, TE and RB!  smh...WE NEED AN INTIMIDATOR IN THE BACK END AGAIN! Boy, I miss Rodney!

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from pezz4pats. Show pezz4pats's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    I thought it was all about execution?




    It is!

    What's more likely to happen, a talented player executing or a mediocre one?

    BB is well known for making lemonade out of lemons but a team cannot win with that diet.

    You need a balance of meat and fibre too.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:


    Mediocre seems harsh on offense (incomplete is probably better). For much of the defense, mediocre might be too generous! We did improve on defense this year, but there's still quite a way to go.

     



    I agree.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    I thought it was all about execution?



    It's certainly not about the number of rushing attempts.

     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    I thought it was all about execution?

     



    It's certainly not about the number of rushing attempts.

     

     



    Or passing attempts either apparently, I just wonder how on their way to the best record in the AFC, a record setting offense that this team, once they lose, suddenly have no talent but when they're scoring 40+ points on the Texans or shutting out the Dolphins they're a team to love?

    Football is the only sport where a defender can approach an offensive player, smash him in the face and take the ball away from him.  The Ravens beat up the Patriots, beat them physically.  They weren't lacking talent they were lacking toughness, on both sides of the ball.  This is another in a long line of reactionary responses to a solid butt kicking.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from mpb2008. Show mpb2008's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    My only question sometimes with the Pats is are the tough enough.  They seem to be missing that one guy who kicks a*s on the field and can really itimidate the opposing team.  Even though I am not a big fan of L. Landry, I was hoping the Pats would sign him for that reason alone.

    Their two losses to the Gaints and the loss to the Ravens, the Pats just looked like they were not as tough and could not stand up to the "bully".

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    In response to mpb2008's comment:

    My only question sometimes with the Pats is are the tough enough.  They seem to be missing that one guy who kicks a*s on the field and can really itimidate the opposing team.  Even though I am not a big fan of L. Landry, I was hoping the Pats would sign him for that reason alone.

    Their two losses to the Gaints and the loss to the Ravens, the Pats just looked like they were not as tough and could not stand up to the "bully".

     




     

    But guys like L.L cant cover I was told but that Gregory he may be the best cover safety there is...Oh wait! Just cant cover tight ends...  smh

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talent Matters

    Until the Patriots defense can collapse a pocket and get to a QB, until a Patriot offense can smash a defense and come away with TD's instead of field goals this team won't win another Super Bowl. Get tough or go home, this isn't golf.

     
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