Talib

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Talib

    He had some high praise for Dobson and Thompkins today after practice saying they both know how to beat the corner off the line. This guy doesn't strike me as the type to throw compliments around - I don't know if he was specifically asked about them (I doubt he was asked about Thompkins), but reports out of camp today said Dobson displayed great ability to beat the jamb and get open.

    If this stuff is true (and it continues) Brady will make household names out of these two soon enough. I can't recall anyone praising Taylor Price (or Ocho) while they were in camp - this may be the first time Brady has had guys outside the numbers who can play in a while. Add in the possible return of Gronk and who knows??

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Talib

    That's some good news.  What the "Run at any cost'ers" don't understand is without a Super Star RB in the back field, and we haven't had a Super Star since Dillon in 04, you need outside the numbers WR's to keep the Safety honest.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from Getzo. Show Getzo's posts

    Re: Talib

    Three things you need at the NFL level as a WR, as I understand it.  

    1.  Getting off the line.

    2.  Create seperation.

    3.  Catch the damn ball.

    Off to a good start at the very least.  

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to Getzo's comment:

    Three things you need at the NFL level as a WR, as I understand it.  

    1.  Getting off the line.

    2.  Create seperation.

    3.  Catch the damn ball.

    Off to a good start at the very least.  



    Agreed, but I would add ...


    2A.  Run the correct route.  We've had a few guys that could not master that point.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

    That's some good news.  What the "Run at any cost'ers" don't understand is without a Super Star RB in the back field, and we haven't had a Super Star since Dillon in 04, you need outside the numbers WR's to keep the Safety honest.

     




    We won two SBs with Antowain Smith.

     




    Smith was an excellent runner.  The guy would get 5 yards a touch and dominate in crunch time not like BJGE getting -1 on first down, on the Welker drop series, to setup 2nd and long.

    Plus we had some talent at the WR postition and a great Defense. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: Talib

    "How we used BJGE at times is like playing a goalie in hockey, having him rest and pulled in the 2nd period, and then putting him back out there in the 3rd expecting greatness.

    That's moron 101 logic because anyone who knows anything about being an RB or a hockey goalie knows you can't be asked to turn it on and off like that. But, Woodhead was Brady's shotgun spread RB. Whoops, huh?"

     

    Dude sounds like you have some serious issues with how BB and his coaching staff handle their players and call a game.  You just called him a Moron.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talib

    Antowain Smith ran a 4.45 at 225 pounds coming into the draft...he was drafted in the first round for a reason. A lot of players turn into busts in Buffalo - more like every player - it's what happens when you don't have qb's and coaches. Smith did plenty well...he ran with power, didn't fumble, could break tackles in close, and fit what we were trying to do here.

    I like that reports are saying Boyce is starting to look better too. To me he is a guy with some dynamic traits - he runs smooth, has deep speed, but is built like a running back.

    I like that there is young legs on the outside right now, some of these guys will develop...the QB is too good to not let that happen. Young guys are going to make mistakes, but maybe they dumb it down a bit and try to build on it as they go.

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from tenace4life. Show tenace4life's posts

    Re: Talib

    With Amendola and this young guys looking so good:  Dobson, Sims, Boyce, Aikens, and Tompkins is there room for Edelman and Jenkins?  I figure they only carry 5 receivers and Slater as the 6th . . . Slater, Dobson, Amendola are there for sure  . . . who gets the last 3 slots?  Maybe Sims or Aikens can be slipped by and they get on the practice squad but that will be a gamble or maybe one ends up like T.J. Moe on the injuried list.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to tenace4life's comment:

    With Amendola and this young guys looking so good:  Dobson, Sims, Boyce, Aikens, and Tompkins is there room for Edelman and Jenkins?  I figure they only carry 5 receivers and Slater as the 6th . . . Slater, Dobson, Amendola are there for sure  . . . who gets the last 3 slots?  Maybe Sims or Aikens can be slipped by and they get on the practice squad but that will be a gamble or maybe one ends up like T.J. Moe on the injuried list.




    I'm thinking despite the reports some of these young guys look good, the fact remains that the NFL regular season and our playbook will probably make things rough at first - I imagine Amendola and maybe Edelman will need to hold things over until they are contributing. I can't see them going with only one veteran receiver (Amendola) to start the season, but stranger things have happened...they already dumped Jones.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from AyyyBoston. Show AyyyBoston's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    In response to tenace4life's comment:

     

     

     

    With Amendola and this young guys looking so good:  Dobson, Sims, Boyce, Aikens, and Tompkins is there room for Edelman and Jenkins?  I figure they only carry 5 receivers and Slater as the 6th . . . Slater, Dobson, Amendola are there for sure  . . . who gets the last 3 slots?  Maybe Sims or Aikens can be slipped by and they get on the practice squad but that will be a gamble or maybe one ends up like T.J. Moe on the injuried list.

     

     




    I'm thinking despite the reports some of these young guys look good, the fact remains that the NFL regular season and our playbook will probably make things rough at first - I imagine Amendola and maybe Edelman will need to hold things over until they are contributing. I can't see them going with only one veteran receiver (Amendola) to start the season, but stranger things have happened...they already dumped Jones.

     

     

     



    I feel the same way Hurl. I feel like there will be at least one veteran wide receiver besides Amendola...as long as his health is ok, I'd place my bet on Edelman. However, as you said, stranger things have happened. I don't believe BB will overvalue veterans, but I do think he will feel the need for one more besides Amendola.

    Let's put it this way: If Dobson and Boyce are coming in with Amendola on 3 WR sets, then BB must REALLY love them.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

    That's some good news.  What the "Run at any cost'ers" don't understand is without a Super Star RB in the back field, and we haven't had a Super Star since Dillon in 04, you need outside the numbers WR's to keep the Safety honest.



    We won two Super Bowls with slot guys as our leading receivers (Brown, Branch) and the other with David Givens.  

    What the "lack of balance guys" don't seem to understand is that receivers get open because of play action, not because they're incredibly gifted and the rest just sux because Belichick can't draft receivers... whine, moan, cry in beer

    Play action only works when you run.

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

    That's some good news.  What the "Run at any cost'ers" don't understand is without a Super Star RB in the back field, and we haven't had a Super Star since Dillon in 04, you need outside the numbers WR's to keep the Safety honest.

     



    We won two Super Bowls with slot guys as our leading receivers (Brown, Branch) and the other with David Givens.  

     

    What the "lack of balance guys" don't seem to understand is that receivers get open because of play action, not because they're incredibly gifted and the rest just sux because Belichick can't draft receivers... whine, moan, cry in beer

    Play action only works when you run.



    I understand what you are saying, but a couple of things about the receivers we had then...David Patten ran a 4.3, David Givens was a 4.5 guy, Branch was a 4.48 guy. Troy Brown was the only one out of that bunch that was "slow". Don't forget we also had a dynamic pass catcher in Kevin Faulk. So three out of our four receivers could get behind a defense (we all saw them being able to stretch a field) and with Faulk you didn't know what we were going to do...hand it to him? Line him up outside? Screen? Didn't matter, the guy was going to make a play. 

    When you have three guys that can run deep, catch a quick screen, run an out, an in, it changes your passing game. We haven't had a receiver that could run under a 4.5 since Moss was here - the Ravens had a field day with that two years in a row - if they had to worry about a guy getting behind them things would of been different.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I understand what you are saying, but a couple of things about the receivers we had then...David Patten ran a 4.3, David Givens was a 4.5 guy, Branch was a 4.48 guy. Troy Brown was the only one out of that bunch that was "slow". Don't forget we also had a dynamic pass catcher in Kevin Faulk. So three out of our four receivers could get behind a defense (we all saw them being able to stretch a field) and with Faulk you didn't know what we were going to do...hand it to him? Line him up outside? Screen? Didn't matter, the guy was going to make a play. 

    When you have three guys that can run deep, catch a quick screen, run an out, an in, it changes your passing game. We haven't had a receiver that could run under a 4.5 since Moss was here - the Ravens had a field day with that two years in a row - if they had to worry about a guy getting behind them things would of been different.



    We've had a bunch of fast guys since then, that's my point, in the NFL everybody is fast, deep passes happen because of play action and guile, not because of some physical advantage David Givens has over an opposing D back.  We ran early in 2007, which opened Moss up deep, the latter half of the season we ran less and less and eventually we started scoring less. 

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from csylvia79. Show csylvia79's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I understand what you are saying, but a couple of things about the receivers we had then...David Patten ran a 4.3, David Givens was a 4.5 guy, Branch was a 4.48 guy. Troy Brown was the only one out of that bunch that was "slow". Don't forget we also had a dynamic pass catcher in Kevin Faulk. So three out of our four receivers could get behind a defense (we all saw them being able to stretch a field) and with Faulk you didn't know what we were going to do...hand it to him? Line him up outside? Screen? Didn't matter, the guy was going to make a play. 

    When you have three guys that can run deep, catch a quick screen, run an out, an in, it changes your passing game. We haven't had a receiver that could run under a 4.5 since Moss was here - the Ravens had a field day with that two years in a row - if they had to worry about a guy getting behind them things would of been different.

     



    We've had a bunch of fast guys since then, that's my point, in the NFL everybody is fast, deep passes happen because of play action and guile, not because of some physical advantage David Givens has over an opposing D back.  We ran early in 2007, which opened Moss up deep, the latter half of the season we ran less and less and eventually we started scoring less. 

     




    I agree to an extent but guile only works a few plays a game... without the smash mouth running game that can get three yards even when the box is loaded your not going to get that many big plays off play action. The LB and DB have to fear being gashed in the run.  Pats in the last few years don't run well when they need it the most. Big games are won often by the team that can get the tough yardage when everyone in the stands knows what is coming.  I honestly think BB wouldn't use shotgun as much if the running game could truely carry the load.  I hope this is the year the running game can take over games and be the first option.

     

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from ATJ. Show ATJ's posts

    Re: Talib

    Returning to the original point, good to read that Talib had good things to say about Dobson and Thompkins.  Be good to see how these early reports translate into production when it matters.

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to russgriswold's comment:

    In response to tcal2-'s comment:

     

    That's some good news.  What the "Run at any cost'ers" don't understand is without a Super Star RB in the back field, and we haven't had a Super Star since Dillon in 04, you need outside the numbers WR's to keep the Safety honest.

     




    We won two SBs with Antowain Smith.

     




    Right, and we had a defense that got 17 INTs in three SB playoff runs.

    Our defense of late has a pitiful 2 INTs in the last three playoff runs.

    Read the facts and weep DUMBKOFF.

     

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: Talib

    Talib is the most talented CB we have had since Law. So his take on the receivers is worth a listen. Maybe they will shine. We sure need them to.

     

     

     http://i236.photobucket.com/albums/ff6/babeparilli/gif_193x113_39ce6f_zps83b8ca29.gif?t=1373985234

     

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to csylvia79's comment:

     

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

     

     

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

     

     

     

    I understand what you are saying, but a couple of things about the receivers we had then...David Patten ran a 4.3, David Givens was a 4.5 guy, Branch was a 4.48 guy. Troy Brown was the only one out of that bunch that was "slow". Don't forget we also had a dynamic pass catcher in Kevin Faulk. So three out of our four receivers could get behind a defense (we all saw them being able to stretch a field) and with Faulk you didn't know what we were going to do...hand it to him? Line him up outside? Screen? Didn't matter, the guy was going to make a play. 

    When you have three guys that can run deep, catch a quick screen, run an out, an in, it changes your passing game. We haven't had a receiver that could run under a 4.5 since Moss was here - the Ravens had a field day with that two years in a row - if they had to worry about a guy getting behind them things would of been different.

     

     

     



    We've had a bunch of fast guys since then, that's my point, in the NFL everybody is fast, deep passes happen because of play action and guile, not because of some physical advantage David Givens has over an opposing D back.  We ran early in 2007, which opened Moss up deep, the latter half of the season we ran less and less and eventually we started scoring less. 

     

     

     

     

     




    I agree to an extent but guile only works a few plays a game... without the smash mouth running game that can get three yards even when the box is loaded your not going to get that many big plays off play action. The LB and DB have to fear being gashed in the run.  Pats in the last few years don't run well when they need it the most. Big games are won often by the team that can get the tough yardage when everyone in the stands knows what is coming.  I honestly think BB wouldn't use shotgun as much if the running game could truely carry the load.  I hope this is the year the running game can take over games and be the first option.

     

     

     

     



    If the answer were simply more play action, more runs, and more of Brady under center, I believe BB would have done that years ago.  I just think BB is a better coach than some here apparently believe.  

     

    Wozzy points to 2007.  Well the two games where the Pats scored more than 50 points both featured close to 40 passes and minimal runs from the "lead back."  In fact, in the game against the Bills, Heath Evans and Kyle Eckel were the leading rushers, each with 10 carries (mostly late in the game when the Pats were killing clock). Maroney only had six carries.  Look at the first half play-by-play in that game for the Pats.  It's very heavy shotgun formations, there's not a ton of play action, and they don't "establish the run."  This is exactly the kind of game that should be a big fail according to our resident experts.  Yet the Pats scored 56 points.  

     

     

    1. New England Patriots at 12:51
    2. 1-10-BUF 13(12:51) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 10-J.Gaffney to BUF 6 for 7 yards (55-A.Crowell). Caught in flat at BUF 7.
    3. 2-3-BUF 6(12:19) 39-L.Maroney up the middle for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN.
    1. ew England Patriots at 10:22
    2. 1-10-NE 37(10:22) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to NE 44 for 7 yards (90-C.Kelsay). Caught in flat at NE 41.
    3. 2-3-NE 44(9:46) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep left to 18-D.Stallworth. Dropped, receiver near sideline at BUF 35.
    4. 3-3-NE 44(9:42) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 84-B.Watson to BUF 41 for 15 yards (20-D.Whitner, 38-J.Butler). Caught over middle.
    5. 1-10-BUF 41(9:02) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to BUF 43 for -2 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio).
    6. 2-12-BUF 43(8:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 81-R.Moss. Dropped, receiver on in route from right at BUF 32.
    7. 3-12-BUF 43(8:12) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss for 43 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Caught at goal line, backing into end zone.
    1. ew England Patriots at 03:38
    2. 9-R.Lindell kicks 57 yards from BUF 30 to NE 13. 23-W.Andrews to NE 28 for 15 yards (27-C.Wire). Ruled that player was down before any fumble. Buffalo challenged the fumble ruling, and the play was Upheld. (Timeout #1.)
    3. 1-10-NE 28(3:29) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 33-K.Faulk. Thrown under pressure: A.Schobel. PENALTY on NE-12-T.Brady, Intentional Grounding, 12 yards, enforced at NE 28.
    4. 2-22-NE 16(3:23) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 18-D.Stallworth to NE 30 for 14 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio). Caught at NE 20.
    5. 3-8-NE 30(2:41) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 10-J.Gaffney to BUF 39 for 31 yards (37-G.Wilson). Caught while sliding in flat at BUF 41.
    6. 1-10-BUF 39(2:04) 39-L.Maroney left tackle to BUF 37 for 2 yards (94-A.Schobel; 95-K.Williams).
    7. 2-8-BUF 37(1:27) 39-L.Maroney right tackle to BUF 28 for 9 yards (95-K.Williams).
    8. 1-10-BUF 28(:50) 83-W.Welker right end to BUF 25 for 3 yards (24-T.McGee). Reverse, handoff from T.Brady.
    9. 2-7-BUF 25(:08) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 16 for 9 yards (38-J.Butler). Caught in flat at BUF 20, crossing to middle.
    1. England Patriots at 12:45
    2. 1-10-NE 16(12:45) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 84-B.Watson to NE 41 for 25 yards (37-G.Wilson). Caught on run in flat at NE 33.
    3. 1-10-NE 41(12:11) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney left guard to NE 45 for 4 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio).
    4. 2-6-NE 45(11:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 83-W.Welker to BUF 40 for 15 yards (33-J.Greer). Caught in flat at BUF 42.
    5. 1-10-BUF 40(10:42) (Shotgun) 39-L.Maroney left guard to BUF 40 for no gain (98-L.Tripplett, 52-J.DiGiorgio).
    6. 2-10-BUF 40(10:02) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 33-K.Faulk to BUF 32 for 8 yards (56-K.Ellison). Screen, caught at BUF 37.
    7. 3-2-BUF 32(9:19) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 18-D.Stallworth to BUF 21 for 11 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio). WR screen, caught at BUF 32.
    8. 1-10-BUF 21(8:40) 44-H.Evans up the middle to BUF 21 for no gain (55-A.Crowell).
    9. 2-10-BUF 21(7:59) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 33-K.Faulk to BUF 11 for 10 yards (20-D.Whitner). FUMBLES (20-D.Whitner), recovered by NE-81-R.Moss at BUF 11. K.Faulk injured on play, assisted off. Measurement = first down.
    10. 1-10-BUF 11(7:28) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady scrambles left guard to BUF 6 for 5 yards (93-A.Hargrove). Scramble after pressure: J.McCargo.
    11. 2-5-BUF 6(6:37) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short left to 81-R.Moss for 6 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Caught in front left corner of end zone. 
      1. iots at 02:49
      2. 1-10-NE 28(2:49) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 83-W.Welker to NE 37 for 9 yards (55-A.Crowell). Caught at NE 35.
      3. 2-1-NE 37(2:27) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short middle to 81-R.Moss to NE 42 for 5 yards (38-J.Butler). Caught at NE 42.
      4. 1-10-NE 42(2:06) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short right to 83-W.Welker (38-J.Butler). Receiver and coverage in flat at NE 47.
      5. Two-Minute Warning
      6. 2-10-NE 42(2:00) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to NE 49 for 7 yards (38-J.Butler). Caught in flat at NE 48.
      7. 3-3-NE 49(1:37) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 39 for 12 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio). Caught at BUF 40, crossing to middle.
      8. 1-10-BUF 39(1:15) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete short left to 18-D.Stallworth. Underthrown, receiver along sideline at BUF 27.
      9. 2-10-BUF 39(1:09) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker to BUF 28 for 11 yards (52-J.DiGiorgio) [93-A.Hargrove]. Caught at BUF 37, crossing to middle.
      10. 1-10-BUF 28(:40) (No Huddle, Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 83-W.Welker pushed ob at BUF 23 for 5 yards (38-J.Butler). Caught along sideline at BUF 23.
      11. 2-5-BUF 23(:34) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass short right to 81-R.Moss to BUF 19 for 4 yards (24-T.McGee). Caught near sideline at BUF 21. Measurement = third down.
      12. Timeout #1 by NE at 00:28.
      13. 3-1-BUF 19(:28) (Shotgun) 44-H.Evans up the middle to BUF 17 for 2 yards (92-R.Denney; 93-A.Hargrove).
      14. Timeout #2 by NE at 00:22.
      15. 1-10-BUF 17(:22) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass incomplete deep middle to 81-R.Moss. Thrown wide of receiver, 9 yds. deep in end zone.
      16. 2-10-BUF 17(:16) (Shotgun) 12-T.Brady pass deep right to 81-R.Moss for 17 yards, TOUCHDOWN. Caught 7 yds. into end zone, along sideline. Moss sets Patriots single-game rec. TD record with 4, breaking mark of 3 done 7 times previously (most recent: Ben Coates, 11/26/95 at Buf.)

     

     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

     

     I'll just add that in the Pats lowest scoring regular season game from 2007 (20 points against the Jets on Dec 16), Brady threw 28 times and Maroney carried 26 times (total carries between Maroney and Faulk were 30).  This was the most carries for Maroney all season.  It came late in the season and it was their lowest scoring game. 

     

    On the flip side,  Pats passed a ton against Dallas early in the season (Oct 14) and scored 48 points.  Brady threw a whopping 49 times (if you include the sacks).  Maroney was out.  The leading rusher was Keven Faulk with 12 carries, followed by Morris with 10, and Eckel with 4.  

     

     The point is, 2007 does not in any way suggest that running more leads to more scoring.

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

    Wozzy points to 2007.  Well the two games where the Pats scored more than 50 points both featured close to 40 passes and minimal runs from the "lead back."  In fact, in the game against the Bills, Heath Evans and Kyle Eckel were the leading rushers, each with 10 carries (mostly late in the game when the Pats were killing clock). Maroney only had six carries.  Look at the first half play-by-play in that game for the Pats.  It's very heavy shotgun formations, there's not a ton of play action, and they don't "establish the run."  This is exactly the kind of game that should be a big fail according to our resident experts.  Yet the Pats scored 56 points.  

    Wow great analysis Pro, did you mention that the Bills ranked 29th against the pass in yards and first downs that year or were you going to overlook that fact, funny how the first TD in that game was a run by Maroney, I don't think you know how play action works maybe?

    Nobody has suggested that you won't throw more against teams susceptible to the pass, of course very few people are arguing that being balanced is a bad thing, except for you and a few others...

    And cue the "I never said that" backtrack...  

    Stop insisting football is all one on one physical matchups where the better athlete always wins, because the reality is coaching, unpredictability, deception count for a lot more than talent alone and Tom Brady has always been an outstanding play action QB.  The Patriots ranked 9th in the entire NFL in rushing attempts in 2007, most people only seem to remember what they choose to.

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     I'll just add that in the Pats lowest scoring regular season game from 2007 (20 points against the Jets on Dec 16), Brady threw 28 times and Maroney carried 26 times (total carries between Maroney and Faulk were 30).  This was the most carries for Maroney all season.  It came late in the season and it was their lowest scoring game. 

     

    On the flip side,  Pats passed a ton against Dallas early in the season (Oct 14) and scored 48 points.  Brady threw a whopping 49 times (if you include the sacks).  Maroney was out.  The leading rusher was Keven Faulk with 12 carries, followed by Morris with 10, and Eckel with 4.  

     

     The point is, 2007 does not in any way suggest that running more leads to more scoring.



    Not coincidently the Jets ranked 5th against the pass that year and dead last against the run... I guess running against a poor run defense and passing against poor pass defenses seems counter intuitive to you but to the rest of us it just seems logical.  

    Back when we won championships nobody cared how many points we won a game by, only that we won, nobody will look back and care how many points we won the Super Bowl by... only that we won.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to prolate0spheroid's comment:

     

     

     I'll just add that in the Pats lowest scoring regular season game from 2007 (20 points against the Jets on Dec 16), Brady threw 28 times and Maroney carried 26 times (total carries between Maroney and Faulk were 30).  This was the most carries for Maroney all season.  It came late in the season and it was their lowest scoring game. 

     

    On the flip side,  Pats passed a ton against Dallas early in the season (Oct 14) and scored 48 points.  Brady threw a whopping 49 times (if you include the sacks).  Maroney was out.  The leading rusher was Keven Faulk with 12 carries, followed by Morris with 10, and Eckel with 4.  

     

     The point is, 2007 does not in any way suggest that running more leads to more scoring.

     



    Not coincidently the Jets ranked 5th against the pass that year and dead last against the run... I guess running against a poor run defense and passing against poor pass defenses seems counter intuitive to you but to the rest of us it just seems logical.  

     

    Back when we won championships nobody cared how many points we won a game by, only that we won, nobody will look back and care how many points we won the Super Bowl by... only that we won.



    Sure match ups are critically important, which is exactly why simplistic formulae about running more or calling more play action don't work.  The fact is your original claim was that running more led to more scoring early in 2007. The data simply don't support that claim.  In fact, the data suggest exactly the opposite.  Matching up your particular strengths and weaknesses against the other team's particular strengths and weaknesses is far more important, and BB is an absolute master at it.  BB hasn't made wholesale errors in game planning, yet the way some posters complain about him not running enough or allowin Brady to be in shotgun too much or not calling play action enough, you'd think he was a bad Pop Warner coach.  BB is a master at his craft.  People should try to learn from him rather than criticize all the time.

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    In response to mthurl's comment:

     

    I understand what you are saying, but a couple of things about the receivers we had then...David Patten ran a 4.3, David Givens was a 4.5 guy, Branch was a 4.48 guy. Troy Brown was the only one out of that bunch that was "slow". Don't forget we also had a dynamic pass catcher in Kevin Faulk. So three out of our four receivers could get behind a defense (we all saw them being able to stretch a field) and with Faulk you didn't know what we were going to do...hand it to him? Line him up outside? Screen? Didn't matter, the guy was going to make a play. 

    When you have three guys that can run deep, catch a quick screen, run an out, an in, it changes your passing game. We haven't had a receiver that could run under a 4.5 since Moss was here - the Ravens had a field day with that two years in a row - if they had to worry about a guy getting behind them things would of been different.

     



    We've had a bunch of fast guys since then, that's my point, in the NFL everybody is fast, deep passes happen because of play action and guile, not because of some physical advantage David Givens has over an opposing D back.  We ran early in 2007, which opened Moss up deep, the latter half of the season we ran less and less and eventually we started scoring less. 

     



    We have had some fast guys since then...Taylor Price, Tate, probably an undrafted free agent or two in camp, but we haven't had anyone on the outside that knew what he was doing. Ocho had lost a step by the time we got him and really we can spend an entire thread on him. Aside from Moss and Stallworth is 07, I really can't think of a burner (unless you count Slater).

    I agree play action is a great thing and Brady is very good at it, but you have to be able to run it effectively for it to work. Now maybe this year that will happen...Ridley has a year starting under his belt, we got Blount, Vareen just might actually play a few games, Bolden has looked good.

    I understand what you are saying - you run it and the safeties come in - then you can get a guy into less coverage deep. I think teams thought we didn't have someone to send deep. I think teams weren't worried about our running game. I think there is a real possibility that may change this year, but it is way too early to know. The bottom line is we didn't have one single guy we could put on the field last year at the skill position that ran under a 4.5....that matters.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    My claim is that without the threat of a run, play action is ineffective, that it's easier to convert a short third down attempt than a long one especially if you've been balanced and have the opposition reeling in uncertainty on defense.  

    Balance, parity in play calling is only a good thing, arguing against that or stating that for a full season or even for three playoff games that it is unecessary is foolish and history has shown us otherwise.  

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to mthurl's comment:

    I understand what you are saying - you run it and the safeties come in - then you can get a guy into less coverage deep. I think teams thought we didn't have someone to send deep. I think teams weren't worried about our running game. I think there is a real possibility that may change this year, but it is way too early to know. The bottom line is we didn't have one single guy we could put on the field last year at the skill position that ran under a 4.5....that matters.



    The play calling has been predictable, this according to opposing coaches and many analysts.  I might also add that Givens left New England and a year later he was out of football, David Patten left New England bounced around two teams with little production and was also gone... coaching is EVERYTHING in football.  Play calling will never receive the credit it deserves except to those highly paid coordinators who earned it.

     
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