Talib

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I would be okay with giving Talib a bit more than usual if we could get some kind of injury language like in Vollmer's contract.

    [/QUOTE]

    Yes, that would be ideal.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to rkarp's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    ditto Mankins?

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not as down on Mankins as most here, but if you were going to do it, it certainly wouldn't be in 2014.  The cap savings wouldn't be sufficient next season to justify cutting him.  2015 on the other hand would be more viable.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm certainly not down on Mankins, but by 2015 they need to talk about adjusting his contract as well.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to rkarp's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I could see something like this;

    $15M signing bonus

    2014 $1M salary    cap hit $4.75

    2015 $2M salary   $62,500 per game bonus ($1M)  cap hit $6.75

    2016 $2M salary   $62,500 per game bonus ($1M)  cap hit $6.75

    2017  $2M salary  $62,500 per game bonus ($1M) cap hit $6.75

    thats a $16M guarantee if he is on the roster June 1st 2014

    if he is on the roster June 1st 2015 he gets $18M

    compared to Arringtons deal, and each players performance, thats a fair deal

    [/QUOTE]

    I think the Arrington deal is the other "frame" for what you could offer him. 

    Arrington has been very good in the slot and on ST, and he got $8 million guaranteed. 

    It's just the going rate for corners in the NFL. 

    Talib should 'easily' warrant $16 million guaranteed. I'd go as high as $20 depending on how the rest of the contract was worded. 

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    I'm certainly not down on Mankins, but by 2015 they need to talk about adjusting his contract as well.



    I think it's gonna have to wait until 2015.  They won't have enough leverage (the threat of cutting him) in 2014 because the cap savings would be insufficient to justify getting rid of a guy that is capable of playing at an all-pro level.  Considering how nasty the negotiations were over money last time with ol' Logie I suspect BB and Kraft will need as much leverage as they can get.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

    Vince will work with BB with his situation. Not worried about that.

     

    [/QUOTE]


    Or we'll just cut him.  Vince's cap hit is coming down next season one way or another.   I am not worried either.

     

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I hope it doesn't come to that, but the prospect of paying a 33 year old interior tackle coming off of a major lower extremety surgery around $12 million against the cap is daunting. 

    I tend to think, given his ties to the region and the Krafts, and the lucrative deal they extended his way last time, he'd be willing to bring his salary down. 

    I also think the days of VW taking 85% of the snaps are officially over for good, which practically merits that adjustment. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    I tend to think, given his ties to the region and the Krafts, and the lucrative deal they extended his way last time, he'd be willing to bring his salary down. 



    That is certainly the word on the street.  As a fan I hope it happens.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I'm certainly not down on Mankins, but by 2015 they need to talk about adjusting his contract as well.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's gonna have to wait until 2015.  They won't have enough leverage (the threat of cutting him) in 2014 because the cap savings would be insufficient to justify getting rid of a guy that is capable of playing at an all-pro level.  Considering how nasty the negotiations were over money last time with ol' Logie I suspect BB and Kraft will need as much leverage as they can get.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Yeah, and he has been healthy, and has been a top-10 run blocking guard in the league. 

    By 33, when NE will be able to trim a LOT of cap space on his contract, he will not be the same value he is now or was. 

    Hopefully, he will stick around too, but parting ways is not the end of the world with 33 year old players, no matter what they've meant to the franchise. 

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from pcmIV. Show pcmIV's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    Yeah, and he has been healthy, and has been a top-10 run blocking guard in the league. 



    I think this is part of the problem with fans' perspective on Mankins.  For whatever reason when a running play gets blown up it's never thought of as badly as when protection breaks down and Brady gets decked.  Mankins has had more really negative plays in pass protection this year than usual, but he and Solder are complete maulers in the run game (which again probably isn't appreciated sufficiently).

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I tend to think, given his ties to the region and the Krafts, and the lucrative deal they extended his way last time, he'd be willing to bring his salary down. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    That is certainly the word on the street.  As a fan I hope it happens.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    Me too. He and Mankins are bother leaders for their respective lines. I feel bad for VW losing this season before that cut date on his contract though. 

    He really didn't have a great beginning of the season, and if something was wrong, it's possibly a result of NE being forced to lean so heavily on him over the past few seasons. 

    But the bottom line, when BB thinks about it (and he can be very unsentimental) is that VW was a minus run defender this season before his injury. He will be 33. He will be coming off an injury. He will be eating up ~$12 million in cap space. 

    Something has to give, or NE could be very exposed and devoting resources that could be spent on Vollmer, Solder, Jones, et al. 

    To be frank, with these rookies I want to see MORE aggressive deals like the Gronkowski pact. Lock them in as bargains BEFORE their walk year. 

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    Yeah, and he has been healthy, and has been a top-10 run blocking guard in the league. 

     

     



    I think this is part of the problem with fans' perspective on Mankins.  For whatever reason when a running play gets blown up it's never thought of as badly as when protection breaks down and Brady gets decked.  Mankins has had more really negative plays in pass protection this year than usual, but he and Solder are complete maulers in the run game (which again probably isn't appreciated sufficiently).

     

     



    Mankins plays on an island too. Whoever plays center and guard on the other side help each other on most assignments. 

    It's apples and oranges.

    Also, most guards, in fact pretty much all of them, do one thing or another well. There aren't any players, outside of seasonal anomalies, that do both pass protection and run blocking extremely well. 

    The physical makeup that makes you good at one doesn't do you any favors at doing the other. 

     

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Talib

    I don't see anyone giving him that. Too many red flags even for someone as talented as him. Lets face it Talibe can't stay on the field, has been inconsistent a vast majority of his career, has the rep of not putting in full effort (prePats), has numerous off field issues, and was on the cliff to be tossed off his former team (before the Pats offered up a pick). You add all that up combined with the complete lack of interest of others teams this past offseason and he'd be a fool to expect big money (asking is different). My guess is he'll end up with a 3-4 yr deal about $5mil per year and something in the upper single to lower double digits in signing bonus. 

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to PatsEng's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    I don't see anyone giving him that. Too many red flags even for someone as talented as him. Lets face it Talibe can't stay on the field, has been inconsistent a vast majority of his career, has the rep of not putting in full effort (prePats), has numerous off field issues, and was on the cliff to be tossed off his former team (before the Pats offered up a pick). You add all that up combined with the complete lack of interest of others teams this past offseason and he'd be a fool to expect big money (asking is different). My guess is he'll end up with a 3-4 yr deal about $5mil per year and something in the upper single to lower double digits in signing bonus. 

    [/QUOTE]

    I think this is a possibility ... if he can't come back clean. 

    I think he gets more than that if he stays healthy through the playoffs. 

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    Re: Talib

    I have three words on this subject. PAY THE MAN!

    Maybe five more. GET THE DEAL DONE EARLY!

     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Uncle Rico. Show Uncle Rico's posts

    Re: Talib

    We aren't paying Talib $15m in guaranteed money.  He can't stay on the field with his bum hip.  Get surgery, prove himself and then we will talk.  I always hear that players will take less to play here, well lets see if that is the case.  He will be walking next season.

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to Uncle Rico's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    We aren't paying Talib $15m in guaranteed money.  He can't stay on the field with his bum hip.  Get surgery, prove himself and then we will talk.  I always hear that players will take less to play here, well lets see if that is the case.  He will be walking next season.

    [/QUOTE]

    Well, there is a list of players who have taken less than market to play here. 

    I understand that isn't a guarantee in Talib's case, or any future player's case, but it is the case. And true there are other teams that acquire plaers below market for various reasons. Stop and think of the organizations that never get players below market. There are many. 

     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from NoMorePensionLooting. Show NoMorePensionLooting's posts

    Re: Talib

    What good is Flacco now to the Ravens?

    What good is Revis now to Tampa?

    The Patriots wrote the book on how to spread the CAP around so the team stays strong. Even Brady knows this and has done more than his share freeing up CAP space.

    Talib will need to take less than Market value to stay. It will be tempered a bit by a decent amount of guaranteed money.

    If BB Mother demanded crazy money to continue being his mother he would cut her...nothing personal...just business.

    Talib ain't breaking the bank here nor is going to be given a deal that messes up the CAP situation.

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from Uncle Rico. Show Uncle Rico's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to zbellino's comment:


    Well, there is a list of players who have taken less than market to play here. 

    I understand that isn't a guarantee in Talib's case, or any future player's case, but it is the case. And true there are other teams that acquire plaers below market for various reasons. Stop and think of the organizations that never get players below market. There are many. 



    But this is about Talib.  I don't think Talib is one of those players.  If he was then he would have signed a deal going into this season.  He wanted a one year, let me show you what I can do type deal and if you aren't ready to back up the brinks truck and drop off all my cash on the doorstep next season then I will be going to the team who will.  That is where Talib is at.

    Billy B will show him the dorr.  Talib will miss part of next season with another hip injury.  Take that to the bank.

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to NoMorePensionLooting's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    What good is Flacco now to the Ravens?

    What good is Revis now to Tampa?

    The Patriots wrote the book on how to spread the CAP around so the team stays strong. Even Brady knows this and has done more than his share freeing up CAP space.

    Talib will need to take less than Market value to stay. It will be tempered a bit by a decent amount of guaranteed money.

    If BB Mother demanded crazy money to continue being his mother he would cut her...nothing personal...just business.

    Talib ain't breaking the bank here nor is going to be given a deal that messes up the CAP situation.

    [/QUOTE]


    I agree BB cuts his mother...but gets a deal done with Talib. He has never been shy to get an early contract with guys he wants - Mankins, Gronk, Hernandez (unfortunately!), Arrington, and the list goes on. I would be very surprised if BB and Talib don't work something out. I hope it's earlier than later. I do agree that he won't or can't mess with the cap long-term.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from CHAMPSXLVIII. Show CHAMPSXLVIII's posts

    Re: Talib

    patsfansince1966 would love this thread

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to Harvey-Wallbanger's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to seawolfxs' comment:
    [QUOTE]


    good job rkarp

    being lazy - is he 27 or 28?

    May be the first thing to be considered is he really coming back -
    after me hoping for the Kelly return , i feel a little less sure he is back until he is

    the other mitigatng factor, in the Pats favor for a deal, is that Revis hasn't exactly been the difference in win / loss. so it may give some trsmd room to pause for more $- However if the Pats win the SB his price with him playing hisd price will get jacked

    I think the price is $8-10m per yr  but the question is how much in guanteed $? and how long ? Can a team pay per games played?


    the Revis money was absurd and he was always angling for the next contract
    Asamwa? wasnt much better.

    I think paying qbs $20m a year is also a bit crazy, Balt got fleeced with Flaco - which was between a rock and a hard place- I wonder if  about now if Flaco wished he had Bolden who was the real MVP for that team last year in the playoffs and SB?
    (Please lets not get into the WW talk - lol)

    glad i am not writing the check
    <br/>

    [/QUOTE]

    Baltimore got fleeced with Flacco because Ozzie sat back and risked losing his leverage. I warned of it at the time.   I don't even think they tried to get him re-upped off the lockout.   He gambled and lost. Now, with a 3-5 club with a weaker D and a weaker overall offense, they just don't have the pipeline to withstand.

    I remember people on here saying we should have traded a 1st rder for Ladarius Webb and then pay him the Courtland Finnegan money!  I think it was Prolate who had suggested it.

    I warned of him being moved outside and how it would expose him.

    http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-11-06/sports/bal-sports-blitz-lardarius-webb-corey-graham-struggling-20131106_1_lardarius-webb-corey-graham-webb-and-graham

    Look at his disaster for Baltimore:

    2014: $7.5 million, 2015-2016: $8 million, 2017: $8.5 million (Option Year)018: Free Agent

    Not trying to call Prolate out, but I still don't think people get the financials in all of this.

    [/QUOTE]

    Not me on that one Rusty.  Must have been someone else. 

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to pcmIV's comment:
    [QUOTE]

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    [QUOTE]

     

    I'm certainly not down on Mankins, but by 2015 they need to talk about adjusting his contract as well.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I think it's gonna have to wait until 2015.  They won't have enough leverage (the threat of cutting him) in 2014 because the cap savings would be insufficient to justify getting rid of a guy that is capable of playing at an all-pro level.  Considering how nasty the negotiations were over money last time with ol' Logie I suspect BB and Kraft will need as much leverage as they can get.

     

    [/QUOTE]

    I'm not sure, of course, but I can see a scenario where Mankins may be more docile this time around.  The last time, he was trying to secure that big contract in part because he had worked so long on an undervalued rookie contract, which meant many of his potential big earning years were already lost.  I think he and his agent were well aware that the second contract was his only chance for big money, which is why they smartly pushed so hard to get that big deal then.  This time around he already has the big money and, because of his age, the market won't be as hot for him, so he may be willing to accept something more modest.  In the NFL, the second contract is, for most players, the best opportunity to make really big money.  On your third contract, your age gets in the way . . . as happened with Welker this time around. 

     

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    In response to pcmIV's comment:

     

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    [QUOTE]

     

     

    Yeah, and he has been healthy, and has been a top-10 run blocking guard in the league. 

     

     



    I think this is part of the problem with fans' perspective on Mankins.  For whatever reason when a running play gets blown up it's never thought of as badly as when protection breaks down and Brady gets decked.  Mankins has had more really negative plays in pass protection this year than usual, but he and Solder are complete maulers in the run game (which again probably isn't appreciated sufficiently).

     

     

     



    Mankins plays on an island too. Whoever plays center and guard on the other side help each other on most assignments. 

     

    It's apples and oranges.

    Also, most guards, in fact pretty much all of them, do one thing or another well. There aren't any players, outside of seasonal anomalies, that do both pass protection and run blocking extremely well. 

    The physical makeup that makes you good at one doesn't do you any favors at doing the other. 

     

    [/QUOTE]

    This really becomes clear if you watch the coaches film every game.  Wendell and Connolly often are doubling a defender, while Mankins usually takes his guy one-on-one and often also slides to help Solder with his block.  In fact, one thing that really stands out if you watch Mankins on every play through the whole game is how often he is making contact with multiple defenders on a single play.  You'll see him drive a DT into the ground then slide over and help Solder with a DE.  Or on a running play, he'll move the DT out of the way and then hit an LB at the second level.  It's hard to see this when you're watching the game on TV or in the stadium, but it really stands out if you watch the film and focus on just the line play.  The more closely I watch Mankins, the more impressed I am with his abilities.  Sure, he makes some mistakes, gets a few too many penalties, and has some missed blocks, but on 90% of the plays, he's really doing a heck of a good job. 

     

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from stillgridlocked. Show stillgridlocked's posts

    Re: Talib

    In response to WazzuWheatfarmer's comment:
    [QUOTE]8-10 million per year is likely what it would take.  If I were in charge, I would make sure he remains a Patriot for that price.[/QUOTE]

    He's in that area somewhere but with his fragileness having a large part of that being guaranteed is probably a deal breaker.

    He is lock down when he is healthy though and man he was what the D needed.

    I hope they come to terms.

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonTrollSpanker. Show BostonTrollSpanker's posts

    Re: Talib

    "BB might, this time, want to mull over whether paying a legit ace corner is worth it. The "trickle down" effect on the other corners, safeties, and pass rushers is tremendous."

    Bingo. He has shied away from this type of signing because he rightly believes he can coach up a "bend don't break" defense, and he absolutely can do that and Belichick gets all the credif for being so good a coach that he can put together bend don't break with imperfect pieces. 

    But: I think he realizes: a. Peyton, a likely postseason adversary, knows how to carve up his bend don't break schemes and can only be stopped by savvy playmakers like Ty Law, b. He is getting sick of humiliating postseason exists with a regular season formula that doesn't carrry over, and c. He realizes that the offense is more vulnerable than in the past is is likely to need the D to win the team a game in the post season, especially if one of the oft-injured offensive playmakers comes up limping. 

    Therefore I think he will pay a slight but important premium for Talib rather than a rigid Welker style negotiation and get him signed for a few years. 

    That said it may depend somewhat on how this season plays out...

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from neinmd. Show neinmd's posts

    Re: Talib

    Talib (age 27) and Dennard (24) at corner, McCourty (26) and Gregory (30) at safety, and Arrington (27) as nickel-back...that's a tough secondary to throw or run at. And one of the youngest in the NFL so a good foundation for many years. It would be stupid not to find a way to keep Talib. BB can then focus on other areas for drafting and trade. I have no idea where the break-even is on a talent like Talib but BB and Kraft both have a sound mind for NFL economics so they will know it to the nearest penny, I would bet and trust.

     
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