Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    First off, this isn't another "In Bill We Trust" post. That idea is a logical fallacy. The draft is a spin of the roulette wheel at best, and everyone makes mistakes. 


     


    But it is a "calm down" post, because this is the worst reaction to a draft in a while. People here were positively stoked in 2006 with all of the flashy picks, none of them "reaches," and it turned out to be Bill's single worst draft, possibly only topped by 2007. I get it, people want sexy picks. Moreover, it's part of the cult of draftology to get your heart set on "your guy" and then get let down. You write a player off because of a "flag" (short arms, injury, 40 speed, etc) and in your mind, where you imagined him going, well, that is where he belongs. 


     


    I understand BB is known for reaching at least once in a draft, and he is know for doing so with mixed results. Tavon Wilson could have been had later, sure. Wheatley, Harmon, and a few others, were head scratchers. But none of the players taken yesterday were reaches.


     


    #1) Easley is a great selection. I understand BB has taken some injury prone players that were reaches. Easley is not. Tuitt, Hageman, et al, they all became deep 2nd rounders, and we can guess with some fair certainty that Easley would have been gone with the very next selection if NE took someone else. A player of Easley's skill, ability, and pedigree is a first rounder. Repeat that. Even with an injury to his knees, that is what it costs to get premium interior pass rush in the draft. If he doesn't have a knee thing, NE wouldn't have had a chance at getting him: he'd have been gone in the top 5-10 selections. 


     


    The rule of thumb is this: pass rushers with extremely high upside are something you pay a premium for. All off-season, and even last season, myself and many (most) others took it as a given NE needed to upgrade the defensive interior. They did that. You take a selection at a point assuming (with all factors in play) a certain amount of risk with any player. Tuitt, Hageman, et al, were NOT as talented as Easley. So you factor in Easley's injury the same way you factor in their lack of promise relative to Easley. All things factored, Easley is a first rounder, worth the risk perhaps up to 20, because of his rare ability to move through the interior of the line rather than merely clogging it the way NE's best have done at their best since Seymour left.


     


    NE addressed a need with a high selection. No one can tell right now who is going to be great and who will fall flat on their face. But I do believe NE has a far greater chance of netting an interior force with the Easley selection than they would have had reaching (yes reaching) at Tuitt, or Hageman, or Jernigan, or Ferguson, all of whom were selected in the second or deep second. None of them are as good a prospect as Easley.


     


    And if your complaint is that he isn't Clowney, then you should be openly rooting for New England to tank this season, because that is the only way they could sniff a prospect like Easley if he had a completely clean bill of health.


     


    #2) As far as the Garoppolo selection, I like that too. If NE was going to draft a QB they needed to do it THIS draft. I posted this about a dozen times. I even went as far as to say I'd be comfortable with them going as high as the second round. If draft scouts are correct, Garropolo was projected as high as the low first, and as low as the low second, so NE got him on a bit of a slide.


     


    Second, I don't care about the school he came from. People need to understand that drafting QBs is not like drafting other positions. How are Colt McCoy, Christian Ponder, Cam Newton, etcetera looking? Sam Bradford? Jimmy Clausen? This list could go on and on. But Nick Foles looks as good as anyone in his draft.


     


    Kapaernick is from Nevada. Roethlisburger is from Miami (of Ohio!). Rivers is from NC State. Flacco is from Delaware. The school is practically irrelevant. E. Illinois produced Tony Romo, who is a darn sight better than almost all of the big school QBs drafted between his draft day and now.


     


    People are incredibly spoiled by Tom Brady. No one here remembers what it was like watching High Millen play QB here, and solid QBs don't grow on trees. They also don't necessarily grow on SEC/Pac12/Big10 teams only. I wanted NE to take a QB. I like Garoppolo. I don't want New England to be the kid without a chair when Tom Brady's music stops.


     


    #3) The 93rd selection is not really any better than the 105th selection. It's all mush down there. NE got a sixth rounder. No one NE will miss has left the board in between the two selections.

     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEOHPatsFan. Show NEOHPatsFan's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Thanks for posting this Zeb...I was starting to think I was the only one here who likes what has happened so far.

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Good post ZB. Glad to have you back. I think too many people are all to willing to make irrational and overwrought statements based on which player is drafted. This is clearly about potential and it always bothers me when people write a player off when he hasn't played a down in the NFL. Also equally true is thinking the player you want is somehow all-important to the PAts future and without that player they are doomed. The draft is not something you discuss in terms of absolutes. You can't evaluate a draft until 3 years later. I am happy with FA pick ups and I will wait and see about the players drafted. My original draft post was DT?DE (answered with Smith and Easley) OG/C (also answered in 4th) and I always felt a QB was definitely in the cards ( I  originally had McCarron in 3rd or 4th). I leave the scouting and player evaluation to the people that actually work for the Pats organization and not some yahoo who thinks his opinion supercedes that espoused by the pros.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from DougIrwin. Show DougIrwin's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Good comments.  I think it's disingenuous for people to come in here and whine about the weak spots for need, BB addresses them in spades, and it's still not good enough.


    Total fraud fans.


     

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from joepatsfan111111. Show joepatsfan111111's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Great post Z, I should copy and paste this and put it in every thread.


    Everyone needs to chill

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Hi5... great post, zb.

     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from BostonSportsFan111. Show BostonSportsFan111's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    I wrote before the draft started that for the Pats, this draft is about the future and depth. They have 8 guys either coming back from injury or signed as FA's that are improvements over the guys that were on the AFCC game roster. Add Easley and Garappolo, and there are just not that many roster spots available, especially with it looking like they will carry 3 QBs this year. D-Line has depth, admittedly with some injury questions. Chandler Jones, Nink, Wilfork, Kelly, Siglia, Chris Jones, Vellano, Armstead, and Easley is a deep rotation. I'd like another LB or two for depth. I have seen limited film on Garappalo, and I don't know a ton about him, have read there is a lot to like. Anyone they pick up today in rounds 4-7 is likely to be a last man on the roster/practice squad type of player. Maybe they get lucky and hit a home run on one or two of them.



     

     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Here's the thing, I'm a fan...we are allowed to not like selections and then vent about them. Personally with myself I follow the draft, I watch tape, it's a hobby. When you see all these guys coming off the board that you like, it bothers you a little bit, especially when we pass on them for a trade back or to select a quarterback that won't most likely play here for 2/3 years...that's just my opinion. I know I'm going to be wrong on some of these players I like, but when you see us take a guy like Tavon Wilson - who I hated at the time...watched the tape over again and still hated him, you question some things. I know I'm not a scout, I know I'm not Belichick, but I still like to voice my opinion.


    The problem I have with this draft is the quarterback taken so high for us...that's it...I like Easley, I understand the trade back to pick up something in the fourth...I just don't like the QB selection. Now maybe the QB will turn into something special - and when you take him that high and pass over so many players to do so - he had better be...I just don't think he will. That's just my opinion.

     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from NEOHPatsFan. Show NEOHPatsFan's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mthurl's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Here's the thing, I'm a fan...we are allowed to not like selections and then vent about them. Personally with myself I follow the draft, I watch tape, it's a hobby. When you see all these guys coming off the board that you like, it bothers you a little bit, especially when we pass on them for a trade back or to select a quarterback that won't most likely play here for 2/3 years...that's just my opinion. I know I'm going to be wrong on some of these players I like, but when you see us take a guy like Tavon Wilson - who I hated at the time...watched the tape over again and still hated him, you question some things. I know I'm not a scout, I know I'm not Belichick, but I still like to voice my opinion.


     


    The problem I have with this draft is the quarterback taken so high for us...that's it...I like Easley, I understand the trade back to pick up something in the fourth...I just don't like the QB selection. Now maybe the QB will turn into something special - and when you take him that high and pass over so many players to do so - he had better be...I just don't think he will. That's just my opinion.


    [/QUOTE]

    You are entitled to your opinion and there are at least 10 other threads that you have done just that in...so why ruin this one that was obviously intended for the posters who have a positive view of what has transpired.

     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from tg19pats. Show tg19pats's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    All good points lets see what happens during game time. I myself get a kick out of all the hand wringing and complaining but agree with mt hurl complaining is part of being a fan. Impersonally thing Easley is going to be a stud. Have not seen the able enough. Have fun with the rest of the day.

     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


    Is it really a stretch to question the picks that BB has made in this draft?  Come on!


     

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from MattC05. Show MattC05's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.


    [/QUOTE]

    This is like saying the Pats wanted Clowney, but had to settle for Easley.  They didn't get their guy!  This draft is a failure!

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


     


    You know this how?


     


     


     


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


     


    This is the first time in the history of the draft that a player high on one teams bored was taken well before they were on the clock to pick, forcing said team to then take another player on their board at the same position.


     


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


     


    I think you're overrating this TE class... there were some decent options, but no must have talents at the position, especially when they were on the clock.


     


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


     


    He's a Rd 7/URFA because you read that on a couple of online publications?  I've read a couple that have him as a Day 2 kid... so what?


     


    Is it really a stretch to question the picks that BB has made in this draft?  Come on!


     


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


     


     


     





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  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from rtuinila. Show rtuinila's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


     


     


     


    You know this how?


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


     


     


     


    This is the first time in the history of the draft that a player high on one teams bored was taken well before they were on the clock to pick, forcing said team to then take another player on their board at the same position.


     


     


     


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


     


     


     


    I think you're overrating this TE class... there were some decent options, but no must have talents at the position, especially when they were on the clock.


     


     


     


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


     


     


     


    He's a Rd 7/URFA because you read that on a couple of online publications?  I've read a couple that have him as a Day 2 kid... so what?


     


     


     


    Is it really a stretch to question the picks that BB has made in this draft?  Come on!


     


     


     


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     





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    [/QUOTE]


    ^ What he said!

     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:


     


    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


     


    You know this how?


    Really? Honestly you seriously think Easley can be that guy? 


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


    This is the first time in the history of the draft that a player high on one teams bored was taken well before they were on the clock to pick, forcing said team to then take another player on their board at the same position.


    This wasn't the Pats first choice.  I would say it's a safe bet that the teams who got the guy they wanted and went out and got him were more successful then teams who got their 2nd or 3rd choice.  Of course, as we well know there are always exceptions to the rule.  People act like Garoppolo was the guy the Pats all along... reports coming out since the pick say differently.


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


    I think you're overrating this TE class... there were some decent options, but no must have talents at the position, especially when they were on the clock.


    The TE position was a very stacked top 5.  Any one of those top 5 players would be huge in this offense.  You might not consider it a deep TE pool this year, but it was for the type of offense the Pats run and we missed all 5 guys.


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


    He's a Rd 7/URFA because you read that on a couple of online publications?  I've read a couple that have him as a Day 2 kid... so what?


     


    Please let me know those sites because most everything I have read has him going in rnd 7 or undrafted.  NFL, CBS, ESPN insider, Walters football to name a few... no day 2!  Matter of fact the best I have read on him is some teams would consider him a possible 5th rounder.


    Is it really a stretch to question the picks that BB has made in this draft?  Come on!


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


    I like you and everyone in the draft forum has an opinion on needs for this team.  I don't like the picks, I am explaining why, and all I see is others saying trust BB, he knows better, blah, blah, blah... no explanation for why a pick is a good pick, just towing the company line.  Please... I tell why I think it is a bad pick, the least people can do is explain why they think it is a good pick instead of just bad mouthing my opinion,


     




     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mthurl's comment:


     


    Here's the thing, I'm a fan...we are allowed to not like selections and then vent about them. Personally with myself I follow the draft, I watch tape, it's a hobby. When you see all these guys coming off the board that you like, it bothers you a little bit, especially when we pass on them for a trade back or to select a quarterback that won't most likely play here for 2/3 years...that's just my opinion. I know I'm going to be wrong on some of these players I like, but when you see us take a guy like Tavon Wilson - who I hated at the time...watched the tape over again and still hated him, you question some things. I know I'm not a scout, I know I'm not Belichick, but I still like to voice my opinion.


     


     


     


    The problem I have with this draft is the quarterback taken so high for us...that's it...I like Easley, I understand the trade back to pick up something in the fourth...I just don't like the QB selection. Now maybe the QB will turn into something special - and when you take him that high and pass over so many players to do so - he had better be...I just don't think he will. That's just my opinion.


     



     


    I have no issue with measured criticism. Even the overboard stuff ("BB Whizzed on my hopes and Dreams and Now my Kids Won't Get into thta Fancy Prep School I Was Hoping, and Grandma Will need More Dialysis, etc, etc, What's Wrong with Kids these Days?") can be filed under "open board/free country." 


     


    I'm just trying to give people perspective. 


     


    Second, you mention part of the problem. Draft-know-it-all-ism: something this board in particular has gone way over the top with in the last few years. It used to be that people would hash out positives and negatives about positional need, and they would talk about programs. Now we have how many distinct "draft" threads? From who? People who peck around on the internet and opine like they know the first thing about ANY of these prospects that cannot be (was not) located in another fan blog or a big name site? 


     


    You might have had objections back then too. But usually something akin to, "Why take a DT when you are deep there?" Or, "don't the Pats really need a safety?" 


     


    Now, I'm just tired of hearing "he's a sixth rounder no higher!" How do they know? "I watched the youtube I found on a fan site, which also said '6th rd.'" Or, "He has a high cut pelvis! That's no good!" Here is my response: It's day three guys! There are no rounds people "should" be selected in! 


     


    Let's take the reaction to Stork's selection. I'm literally chuckling at the farce. It took about two seconds for Stork to be selected until a couple of posters chimed in "Short arms, stiff hips? Thanks for kicking my dog Bill!" It takes about another two seconds to go to NFLcombine.com, then look at the negatives column, and then read "short arms stiff hips." Then maybe a cursory five seconds to look at the top five or six fan blogs, that ALL essentially copied and pasted that little tid bit.


     


    Given a modicum of perspective people would realize Dan Koppen had shorter arms than Stork. Give it a bit of thought and one might realize FSU had the seventh best passing offense in the entire NCAA. The other comparable centers weren't in an offense nearly as sophisticated. If anyone knows anything about NCAA football (and dollars to donuts most people here watch one or two games each season at best), they'd know that Jimbo Fisher, unlike just about every other coach out there in college, runs a "concept" based offense where the same set of plays are run from a few different personnel packages, where the nomenclature remains the same but the players might change, where they pass to set up the run, and where you have a high learning curve. In short, Stork, for a team like NE, who runs a concept based E/P offense, is possibly the best interior line selection. He already calls signals in that very style of offense, which (like FSU's) can be baffling for newcomers, and has really crashed a few careers based on its complexity.  


     


    The pick makes sense. Martin? Not so much when you look at what the draft room might actually be thinking. 


     


    Lastly, like everyone else here including myself, you've seen no "tape" on any of these kids. None. With all due respect, and I mean that respect Mthurl, Youtube highlight reels and typed snippets from other people who watch Youtube highlight reels are not "tape." Watching "tape" is sitting in a coaches room with the knowledge of actual football technique, and multiple views from every game a player has been involved in (good plays and bad) while studying and annotating that material exhaustively. 


     


    No offense, the guys you liked are probably going to be out of the NFL. We know this because most drafted players are going to be out of the NFL. So will half of BB's selections if history is our guide. 


     


    There is no reason to throw a fit (not that you have, I've not noticed it to be truthful). 


     


    Lastly, onto the 'Garoppolo' debate. NE needs a QB now, not later. You don't assume Brady is going to play past his current contract at 36-7 years of age. A second rounder, which Garoppolo is certainly worth, is a fair price to pay. The mish-mosh of scrub players around him most likely wouldn't have a made a difference EITHER for several seasons. A 62nd pick, or whatever they used on him, is not (unless you get lucky) an immediate contributor. Most of them take three seasons to have a real impact (they might play earlier if you are particularly weak at a spot), the better of them are starting in season two, with only rare gems becoming a real impactful presence in season #1. Garoppolo won't be an immediate contributor. But when Brady retires, or takes a higher contract elsewhere at 40, at least New England will have a decent, day one, QB with experience in the system under contract. And if, based on their scouting, Garoppolo has the football intellect and accuracy/footwork he is supposed to have, and if they develop him, and he is a very good QB, then no one is going to care that they passed on Landry, Britt, Martin, or Nix, even if one of them becomes a very good player a couple years down the line. 

     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to rtuinila's comment:
    [QUOTE]




    ^ What he said!


    [/QUOTE]



    Exactly, that is all you bring.  No explanations.  Can you provide any type of explanation about football or do you not know enough to provide actual discussion points?

     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


     


    [/QUOTE]




    Ex-actly!


    5 TES??!!??!!??


    Outside of Ebron? What?


    Really, if New England took Amaro or Niklas with their 1st, which is what it would have taken, I'd be confused as all get out. A blocking TE or two in the second, in my opinion, is a waste unless you are stacked at the spot or running a real power running offense. 


    Reading this makes it appear like this is the first draft these people have ever watched. 


    Give me those five TE names. I'll guarantee only one of them, if that, ever becomes anything more than a role player. 


     

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from Cyberknot. Show Cyberknot's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Good post ZB. Good to see you back, and bring some sensibility with you.
     

     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    Z I respect your opinion, I always have, but in my opinion the stuff about "tape" is not really true in the sense you are talking about any longer. Not many are tuning into youtube for highlight reels...the slow motion stuff with lots of awesome inspirational music in the background. There is so much more out there now to watch - in the past few years it has changed sooo much it's ridiculous what you can watch. You can watch these kids against almost all their opponents, from different angles, in slow motion...you name it. Now that doesn't make us scouts, it doesn't make us coaches, but it does allow you to see way way more of these kids performance and make an opinion. And a decent way to try to figure out if your opinion is somewhat accurate is to watch the stuff first and then go read about the kid or listen to any one of the 1000 unemployed scouts talking on TV months before the draft.


    Like you said, half the players I like won't make it in the NFL...and half the players selected by experts won't either...I just think that gives me more of a right to have an opinion.  

     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


     




    Ex-actly!


     


    5 TES??!!??!!??


     


    Outside of Ebron? What?


     


    Really, if New England took Amaro or Niklas with their 1st, which is what it would have taken, I'd be confused as all get out. A blocking TE or two in the second, in my opinion, is a waste unless you are stacked at the spot or running a real power running offense. 


     


    Reading this makes it appear like this is the first draft these people have ever watched. 


     


    Give me those five TE names. I'll guarantee only one of them, if that, ever becomes anything more than a role player. 


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


    In this Patriots offense???  Are you freaking nuts?  Any one of those 5 guys would be huge in this Patriots offense.  We are talking Patriots offense here, Z!  Not other teams offense.

     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from Schumpeters-Ghost. Show Schumpeters-Ghost's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    They need a TE who hasn't had major reconstruction of his knee


    Defense.  It is still important.

     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from mbeaulieu07. Show mbeaulieu07's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:


    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


     


    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


     


     


     


    You know this how?


     


    Really? Honestly you seriously think Easley can be that guy? 


    They drafted Easley to do what he does... use his exceptional burst and quicks to disrupt vs. the run and pass... so he doesn't have to be that guy.  We also have zero insight into what BB/MP are looking to do from a schematic standpoint moving forward, so it's impossible to assume that he needs a particular player.


     


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


     


    This is the first time in the history of the draft that a player high on one teams bored was taken well before they were on the clock to pick, forcing said team to then take another player on their board at the same position.


     


    This wasn't the Pats first choice.  I would say it's a safe bet that the teams who got the guy they wanted and went out and got him were more successful then teams who got their 2nd or 3rd choice.  Of course, as we well know there are always exceptions to the rule.  People act like Garoppolo was the guy the Pats all along... reports coming out since the pick say differently.


    So trading up for a guy that you want automatically makes you more successful?  You think that just because BB had Bortles high on his board, that he should leverage his entire draft to take him?  Who is acting like BB went into this draft knowing that he'd land JG?  Again, non of us know how the board will drop.  They build their board and select based on who's available.


     


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


     


    I think you're overrating this TE class... there were some decent options, but no must have talents at the position, especially when they were on the clock.


     


    The TE position was a very stacked top 5.  Any one of those top 5 players would be huge in this offense.  You might not consider it a deep TE pool this year, but it was for the type of offense the Pats run and we missed all 5 guys.


    Yeah, don't agree... again, some decent prospects, but I don't see any must haves... and none worth trading up for.  We won't know for a couple years.


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


     


    He's a Rd 7/URFA because you read that on a couple of online publications?  I've read a couple that have him as a Day 2 kid... so what?


     


     


     


    Please let me know those sites because most everything I have read has him going in rnd 7 or undrafted.  NFL, CBS, ESPN insider, Walters football to name a few... no day 2!  Matter of fact the best I have read on him is some teams would consider him a possible 5th rounder.


     


    Draft Nasty, which is run by Corey Chavous (a former NFL DB) and his father... and Ourlads.


     

     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:


     


    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Pats need a player to take over for Vince.  This was a good draft to do that.  Easley isn't that guy.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    You know this how?


     


     


     


    Really? Honestly you seriously think Easley can be that guy? 


     


    They drafted Easley to do what he does... use his exceptional burst and quicks to disrupt vs. the run and pass... so he doesn't have to be that guy.  We also have zero insight into what BB/MP are looking to do from a schematic standpoint moving forward, so it's impossible to assume that he needs a particular player.


     


     


     


    Bortles was the Pats guy, they ended up with Garoppolo. This isnt the guy they wanted to take over for Brady.  Maybe he can work, but wasn't who they initially wanted.  Garoppolo heavily worked out of the shotgun and spread offense, Rusty must really hate that but he hasn't said it because it will go against his love for BB.


     


     


     


    This is the first time in the history of the draft that a player high on one teams bored was taken well before they were on the clock to pick, forcing said team to then take another player on their board at the same position.


     


     


     


    This wasn't the Pats first choice.  I would say it's a safe bet that the teams who got the guy they wanted and went out and got him were more successful then teams who got their 2nd or 3rd choice.  Of course, as we well know there are always exceptions to the rule.  People act like Garoppolo was the guy the Pats all along... reports coming out since the pick say differently.


     


    So trading up for a guy that you want automatically makes you more successful?  You think that just because BB had Bortles high on his board, that he should leverage his entire draft to take him?  Who is acting like BB went into this draft knowing that he'd land JG?  Again, non of us know how the board will drop.  They build their board and select based on who's available.


     


     


     


    5 very good TE's to chose from to fill a big role in this offense, deep draft for TE's as far as TE's are concerned... Pats got zero! 


     


     


     


    I think you're overrating this TE class... there were some decent options, but no must have talents at the position, especially when they were on the clock.


     


     


     


    The TE position was a very stacked top 5.  Any one of those top 5 players would be huge in this offense.  You might not consider it a deep TE pool this year, but it was for the type of offense the Pats run and we missed all 5 guys.


     


    Yeah, don't agree... again, some decent prospects, but I don't see any must haves... and none worth trading up for.  We won't know for a couple years.


     


    Need some O line help, depth and the pats get a injury prone center in the beginning of the 4th round who is projected to go late round 7 or undrafted.  Stork didn’t participate in the combine due to injuries to his knee and both shoulders. Almost had finger amputated in 12. Toe surgery in 13.


     


     


     


    He's a Rd 7/URFA because you read that on a couple of online publications?  I've read a couple that have him as a Day 2 kid... so what?


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    Please let me know those sites because most everything I have read has him going in rnd 7 or undrafted.  NFL, CBS, ESPN insider, Walters football to name a few... no day 2!  Matter of fact the best I have read on him is some teams would consider him a possible 5th rounder.


     


     


     


    Draft Nasty, which is run by Corey Chavous (a former NFL DB) and his father... and Ourlads.


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


    I'd immediately question NE needing someone to take over for Vince. NE has been a 4-3 for a while now. Vince is actually an anomaly in that type of defense. If anything, if 43 si their route in the future, they should be looking to get smaller inside, not bigger. 

     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from zbellino. Show zbellino's posts

    Re: Talking them off the ledge.... (Draft)

    In response to TFB12's comment:
    [QUOTE]


    In response to zbellino's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


    In response to mbeaulieu07's comment:
    [QUOTE]


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    There's a difference between questioning or being unhappy with BB's picks, (fans get an emotional attachment to players they want, it happens to all of us), and moving thread to thread sh1++ing all over every pick (and the intelligence of the organization) based on some pre-conceived notion that you have based on a scouting report/opinion of a talking head that you've read; before a kid ever steps on the field to take a snap for the team.


     


     


     


     


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


     


     


     




    Ex-actly!


     


     


     


    5 TES??!!??!!??


     


     


     


    Outside of Ebron? What?


     


     


     


    Really, if New England took Amaro or Niklas with their 1st, which is what it would have taken, I'd be confused as all get out. A blocking TE or two in the second, in my opinion, is a waste unless you are stacked at the spot or running a real power running offense. 


     


     


     


    Reading this makes it appear like this is the first draft these people have ever watched. 


     


     


     


    Give me those five TE names. I'll guarantee only one of them, if that, ever becomes anything more than a role player. 


     


     


     


     


     


    [/QUOTE]


    In this Patriots offense???  Are you freaking nuts?  Any one of those 5 guys would be huge in this Patriots offense.  We are talking Patriots offense here, Z!  Not other teams offense.


    [/QUOTE]


    You are really calling someone nuts who doesn't think that all 5 of ANY position in an NFL draft will be "huge" in the NFL?


    Really?


    In five seasons, four of them won't even be IN the NFL anymore if past averages/likelihood is our guide. 


    Per NE's offense ... it didn't help Ballard, Fells, Smith, Hooman, Sudfeld, Kellen Winslow or anyone else flourish. 


    Don't confuse two excellent talents NE secured in Gronk and Hern with a fantasy that any TE will be great in the offense. It is simply not true. 


    Here is a three year spread of TEs drafted btwn 2009-12. How many of these guys are "huge" at all? How many are even in the NFL?


    You are telling me it's a slam dunk that 5, all five, of a position in the midrounds would be "huge" in the NFL? You need to relax a little and watch a few more drafts. Most players become absolutely nothing,. 


    2 34 Indianapolis Colts Coby Fleener TE Stanford Pac-12
    3 64 Indianapolis Colts Dwayne Allen TE Clemson ACC
    3 78 Miami Dolphins Michael Egnew TE Missouri Big 12 from San Diego [R3 - 7]
    4 110 San Diego Chargers Ladarius Green TE Louisiana-Lafayette Sun Belt
    4 111 Chicago Bears Evan Rodriguez TE Temple MAC
    4 116 Cincinnati Bengals Orson Charles TE Georgia SEC


    7* 238 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Daniel Hardy TE Idaho WAC
    7 218 Green Bay Packers Ryan Taylor TE North Carolina ACC from Jacksonville via Miami [R7 - 7]
    7 204 Denver Broncos Virgil Green TE Nevada WAC from Carolina via Green Bay [R7 - 1]
    6 181 Oakland Raiders Richard Gordon TE Miami (FL) ACC
    5 159 New England Patriots Lee Smith TE Marshall C-USA
    5 141 Green Bay Packers D. J. Williams TE Arkansas SEC from San Francisco via Denver [R5 - 4]
    4 129 Denver Broncos Julius Thomas† TE Portland State Big Sky from Green Bay [R4 - 13]
    4 104 Tampa Bay Buccaneers Luke Stocker TE Tennessee SEC from Washington via Philadelphia [R4 - 2]
    4 102 Cleveland Browns Jordan Cameron† TE USC Pac-10
    3 69 Arizona Cardinals Rob Housler TE Florida Atlantic Sun Belt
    2 47 St. Louis Rams Lance Kendricks TE Wisconsin Big Ten


    7 235 San Diego Chargers Dedrick Epps TE Miami (FL) ACC 


    7 233 Arizona Cardinals Jim Dray TE Stanford Pac-10
    7 227 Houston Texans Dorin Dickerson TE Pittsburgh Big East
    7 214 Minnesota Vikings Mickey Shuler, Jr. TE Penn State Big Ten from Cleveland via Detroit[R7 - 6]
    6 185 Seattle Seahawks Anthony McCoy TE USC Pac-10 from Tennessee[R6 - 7]
    6 182 San Francisco 49ers Nate Byham TE Pittsburgh Big East
    6 174 Washington Redskins Dennis Morris TE Louisiana Tech WAC from Washington via Miami[R6 - 3]
    6 170 St. Louis Rams Fendi Onobun TE Houston C-USA
    5 162 Indianapolis Colts Brody Eldridge TE Oklahoma Big 12
    5 154 Green Bay Packers Andrew Quarless TE Penn State Big Ten
    5 132 St. Louis Rams Michael Hoomanawanui TE Illinois Big Ten
    4 125 Philadelphia Eagles Clay Harbor TE Missouri State MVFC from Dallas[R4 - 15]
    4 118 Houston Texans Garrett Graham TE Wisconsin Big Ten
    4 114 Baltimore Ravens Dennis Pitta TE BYU MWC from Denver[R4 - 10]
    4 113 New England Patriots Aaron Hernandez† TE Florida SEC from San Francisco via Denver[R4 - 9]
    3 95 New Orleans Saints Jimmy Graham† TE Miami (FL) ACC
    3 93 Kansas City Chiefs Tony Moeaki TE Iowa Big Ten from Minnesota via Houston[R3 - 12]
    3 70 Baltimore Ravens Ed Dickson TE Oregon Pac-10 from Seattle via Philadelphia and Denver[R3 - 1]
    2 42 New England Patriots Rob Gronkowski† TE Arizona Pac-10 f
    1 21 Cincinnati Bengals Jermaine Gresham† TE Oklahoma Big 12

     

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