Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches


    Follow to my last post...

    If Graham is available take him at 22...

    Then with 53, I would take Veldheer. 
     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    PatsLifer, I was making a big uglies mock.  I too would love Graham in the first, but less and less think he will be there.  2 OL might let us trade Koppen or another guy for a later pick before day 3 of the draft. 
     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    PatsLifer, I was making a big uglies mock.  I too would love Graham in the first, but less and less think he will be there.  2 OL might let us trade Koppen or another guy for a later pick before day 3 of the draft. 
    Posted by MordecaiBloodmoon


    We already have an over abundence of day 3 picks and not enough room on the team to put them. I wouldn't draft 2 OL and think trading Koppen for another day 3 pick is a wise move. Maybe if we can get a mid pick (3rd or 4th) next year for him but not a day 3 this year.
     
     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from croc. Show croc's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    I think Graham has to be the number one target in their range.  If he's there, I imgine they take him and move onto the true DL a bit later on.  There are several OTs that should be within range in the second round.  Veldheer would be a good one.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : We already have an over abundence of day 3 picks and not enough room on the team to put them. I wouldn't draft 2 OL and think trading Koppen for another day 3 pick is a wise move. Maybe if we can get a mid pick (3rd or 4th) next year for him but not a day 3 this year.  
    Posted by PatsEng


    But there is going to be allot of rd3/rd4 guys that would improve us this year.  We can address RB/TE in that range with very good quality guys.  The we would also have some freedom to use our tradable 6th and 2 7ths to move up in that round or move up our current 4th rd pick. 
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from TexasPat3. Show TexasPat3's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    Football is won in the trenches. With the high flying 16-0 season in 2007, the Pats seem to have forgotten that basic rule of football. The fans, and a lot of people on this forum, all want skill players in the draft - Dez Brayant or a RB or whatever. Logan Mankins is not a sexy first round pick. Remember last year when Mel Kiper was beside himself because we drafted Vollmer in the second round??? Mel went crazy - we could have picked Vollmer in the 5th Mel said - of course that was not true. CJ Spiller; Dez Bryant - it is always the same - the skilled players are magically going to fall to #22. Who cares? We do not want them. Forget WR and RB - we need guys in the trenches - DE, TE, Center, OLB. OH you guys are going to hate this thread - it is not sexy. No 4.24 second 40 yard dashes!!! Let's hope BB has learned his lesson and there is not a RB or WR drafted until the 4th round like the old days when we won SBs.
    Posted by One-If-By-Sea


         Agreed, Agreed, Agreed!!!!
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : But there is going to be allot of rd3/rd4 guys that would improve us this year.  We can address RB/TE in that range with very good quality guys.  The we would also have some freedom to use our tradable 6th and 2 7ths to move up in that round or move up our current 4th rd pick. 
    Posted by MordecaiBloodmoon


    I understand but trading Koppen to move up a couple spots in the 4th or move up from the 7th to the 6th just doesn't seem right. I'd rather release an underperforming lineman and keep Koppen as a backup just incase Pouncey struggles in his frist year. Overly Good depth is always a great issue to have. However, if we could get a early 5th or 4th for Koppen well that might be a different story. I might be more inclined to trade him that way
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsLifer. Show PatsLifer's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches


    If the Pats make a trade of Koppen or possibly even Light, it should be a 3rd or 4th round pick this year. I think Light has better value than Koppen. There are many LT/RT tackle needy teams in the NFL. 

    I like Pouncey because of his versatility and size. He can from day 1 play both Guard spots or even replace Koppen at center. I think he is that talented. So, theoretically you could trade away Koppen or possibly even someone else or two. Remember, we also have Ohrenberger, Connolly and Bussey....Bussy can play RT, possibly making Light expendable if we move Vollmer to LT, Ohrenberger can play Guard, Connolly provides depth at center. One of the keys to this is insuring we extend Mankins and get him on the field early.

    All i am saying is we have options should the Pats draft Pouncey in round 1. I am not against taking 2 OL, just not 2 with the first 4 picks. Ideally, would like to draft another large tackle, in the mold of Vollmer. Someone like a Sam Young from Notre Dame...6'8", 330lbs..he is a pure RT...or Adam Ulatoski from Texas who can play RT and LT and measures in at 6'6", 310lbs..(played LT at Texas protecting the one and only Colt McCoy)....I think both can be had in round 3-4...
     
  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from thejoshuatree28. Show thejoshuatree28's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    One of the biggest things the Pats have to have coming out of this draft (This could include Lewis) is a legitimate starting right , having one will help us in both run and Pass, because it frees up our LB if we have somebody taking on a double team at each spot on the DL. I think that an interior line man and tackle (right or left, Vollmer can and will play the other) is less or a need than some people are screaming about, just because we have Bussey, Orhenberger, Connelly, and also we do have Mark Levoir who has been getting better. OL is a problem but is not the biggest need that we have (Crumpler while also help Improve the blocking he is pretty much another OT). I think that falls to OLB, TE and Wr. 

    Another point is BB staff is good at developing and selecting OL so later picks could be used.
     
  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from Mungomunro. Show Mungomunro's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

     I still remember those years when we would have the ball with 5 min. left.

      Brady would drive the team down the field by running the ball with cast off RBs and with short passes to no name recievers.

      The Pats could kill half the forht quater by getting 1st down after first down eatting up the clock and kick a field goal with no time left on the clock.

     That was all made possable because we had a dominate OL and Brady who never missed the open man. 
     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
     I still remember those years when we would have the ball with 5 min. left.   Brady would drive the team down the field by running the ball with cast off RBs and with short passes to no name recievers.   The Pats could kill half the forht quater by getting 1st down after first down eatting up the clock and kick a field goal with no time left on the clock.  That was all made possable because we had a dominate OL and Brady who never missed the open man. 
    Posted by Mungomunro


    Bingo.  Last year, our defense was adequate.  Our ability to score and jump out to a lead was adequate.  Nearly all of our losses were due to the offenses' inability to grind out the clock in the second half.  Reasons:

    1.  Running Backs:  panzy (Maroney) and old men (the rest)
    2.  Wide receivers:  only one guy who could make the quick cuts on the precise routes to get open for the short passes (Welker)
    3.  Injured/Old O-line
    4.  Tight ends that couldn't catch (Alligator Arms)

    I would say RB, WR and TE are the top needs after a 2-gap RE.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : .... I would say RB, WR and TE are the top needs after a 2-gap RE.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    I would never spend a high pick on a RB, not even a AP type.  They take too much of a pounding to spend big on one guy.  You need a committee these days. 
    It's a passing league now.  It's not like the old days when you could win by running and stopping the run.  You need to be able to sling it first to set up the run.  For the Pats that means keeping Brady clean because he's immobile.  I want my RB to be smart and tough more than blazing fast or a great pure runner because he needs to understand the passing game first.  If he can't block and he can't read the rush, he can't play.  He also needs to be able to catch the ball.

    Seems to me they need to find a way to pressure the opposing QB more than anything.  That would certainly make the secondary a whole lot better.  So yes, while they need a legit 3-4 DE to contain the running game (can't have Mike Wright starting), that's not where the pass rush is going to come from.  Unless Richard Seymour II (or a reasonable facsimile) falls to them, that needs to come from outside.

    So I would say that the need is greatest on the defensive side.  But I would also say they should pick then best football players available.  It generally goes poorly when teams try to fill needs.
     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : I would never spend a high pick on a RB, not even a AP type.  They take too much of a pounding to spend big on one guy.  You need a committee these days.  It's a passing league now.  It's not like the old days when you could win by running and stopping the run.  You need to be able to sling it first to set up the run.  For the Pats that means keeping Brady clean because he's immobile.  I want my RB to be smart and tough more than blazing fast or a great pure runner because he needs to understand the passing game first.  If he can't block and he can't read the rush, he can't play.  He also needs to be able to catch the ball. Seems to me they need to find a way to pressure the opposing QB more than anything.  That would certainly make the secondary a whole lot better.  So yes, while they need a legit 3-4 DE to contain the running game (can't have Mike Wright starting), that's not where the pass rush is going to come from.  Unless Richard Seymour II (or a reasonable facsimile) falls to them, that needs to come from outside. So I would say that the need is greatest on the defensive side.  But I would also say they should pick then best football players available.  It generally goes poorly when teams try to fill needs.
    Posted by Muzwell[/QUOTE]

    It's so rare to find a 2 gap RE that I would spend our highest pick on one (if reasonable) then OL or TE then WR and RB.  I would look for mid-round guys for WR and RB ... the higher rated guys' egos are too big for the job.
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : It's so rare to find a 2 gap RE that I would spend our highest pick on one (if reasonable) then OL or TE then WR and RB.  I would look for mid-round guys for WR and RB ... the higher rated guys' egos are too big for the job.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]

    This is where teams run into problems drafting in my opinion. Yes there's a need at that spot, but do you automatically use the top pick on that and pass up a better football player at a position where the need is less urgent?  For example, let's say Odrick is available at 22 and would be a big body to plug into that spot and do an adequate job.  But what if you think Taylor Mays is a bigger, faster version of Ed Reed?  He's 6-3, 230 and runs a 4.3.  I want the best football players.  I don't care where they play or who else I have.  The only position I vary from that approach is QB.
     
  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : This is where teams run into problems drafting in my opinion. Yes there's a need at that spot, but do you automatically use the top pick on that and pass up a better football player at a position where the need is less urgent?  For example, let's say Odrick is available at 22 and would be a big body to plug into that spot and do an adequate job.  But what if you think Taylor Mays is a bigger, faster version of Ed Reed?  He's 6-3, 230 and runs a 4.3.  I want the best football players.  I don't care where they play or who else I have.  The only position I vary from that approach is QB.
    Posted by Muzwell[/QUOTE]

    But you also got the opposite end of the arguement where you don't draft for need but draft on talent alone like Det did for how many years in a row grabbing wr's like candy? You need to assess your needs and the talent that will be around that pick and what you have on the team. When you were near last in sacks and TFL last season that's a position where you should spend a pick to fix the need right away, provided that the drop off from the next level of talent isn't to large. Also when looking at the S's, Merriweather is coming along nicely and some said he was 4th best S in the AFC last year. If they truely believe in Chung and McGowan then drafting a very talented S no matter who it is seems almost like a waste since you only have 2 on the field at a time. Same thing went with Den's  stocking of RB's all those years. They always had a RB to plug in once the other's rookie contracts ran up but they used higher draft picks on rb's who all couldn't get on the field at the same time when the picks could have been used to fix issues on their D or WR core. Of course you want to draft the best talent available but if the positions starters are already filled and you have other areas of need that aren't you go for the need.

    I look at the 1st two rounds as below

    IMO the positions where there is no clear starter currently are SILB (Mayo being the WILB), ROLB, RE. These should be the area's looked at with the 1st and atleast 2 should be filled in the first 4 picks 

    Positions that need an upgrade bacause there are backups right now, have a player leaving soon, or currently has 0 depth are T, C, WR, TE. These are picks that if the talent level is so much greater then the no clear starters you take with a 1st otherwise you take in the 2nd. With the 2nd being the best available talent regardless of starters filled or not.

    If in the 2nd the best talent avaiable is so much greater for a RB or Nickle CB you take them in the 2nd but not the 1st and only if the talent level is much greater then the 2 needs listed above.

    Everything else can be left for latter  
     
  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from Muzwell. Show Muzwell's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : But you also got the opposite end of the arguement where you don't draft for need but draft on talent alone like Det did for how many years in a row grabbing wr's like candy? .....
    Also when looking at the S's, Merriweather is coming along nicely and some said he was 4th best S in the AFC last year. If they truely believe in Chung and McGowan then drafting a very talented S no matter who it is seems almost like a waste since you only have 2 on the field at a time..... 
    Posted by PatsEng[/QUOTE]

    There's no right answer here as to picking for need vs. the best available player.
    But here's an example of what I'm talking about.  In 2003, Philly passed on Troy Polamalu to take Jerome McDougle because of need.  They needed DL and were good at the safety position.  I suspect they'd like to have that one back.

    I'd hate to see that happen with Odrick or some other run of the mill DL.  And by the way, I'm using Mays as an example.  I just know BB has a fondness for safeties who can run and lay the wood, and a guy who is that big and fast has to be tempting, if he's there at 22 (which is not a given).

    As for Detroit, well it doesn't matter if you pick bad players.  At least it finally worked out with Megatron.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from jbalance617. Show jbalance617's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]Trenches huh.  How would people feel if we say got: 22 Pouncey C/OG 44 Hughes DE/OLB 47 Damian Williams WR 53 Veldheer OT 119 TE to be named later I would not complain, and I think it is possible.
    Posted by MordecaiBloodmoon[/QUOTE]


    This would be a solid draft...
    I like graham at 22 but I wouldn't mind
    us grabbing Pouncey.
     
  18. You have chosen to ignore posts from MordecaiBloodmoon. Show MordecaiBloodmoon's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    I am really hooping either Graham or Pouncey is there at 22 and we take one of them, plus the rest.
     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from BubbaInHawaii. Show BubbaInHawaii's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches : I would rather they dealt with the DL before OL, but if they did that I'd be happy. Veldeer is definitely a sleeper OT who could be well worth it.
    Posted by croc[/QUOTE]

    Agreed, altho Veldeer is no longer a "sleeper"...
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    Merriweather is the 4th best Safety ... at what, missing tackles?

    Odrick is not a 2 gapper so no way we take him.

    RB is also a position where there is about to be a huge void (the only 2 solid 1st/2nd down guys (Taylor and Morris) will surely miss half the season due to injury).  Spend a 4th or a 6th on a RB (or trade Maroney for 5th ala Ellis Hobbs and draft a RB).
     
  21. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    Muzwell - This is true but hindsight is better then 20/20, I mean how many teams with good QB's passed on Brady or even last year how many teams taking T's wouldn't mind having the pick back and taking Oher or Vollmer in the top 15? Truth is no one knows what any player is going to be otherwise no one would miss on any pick and we'd only need 2-3 rounds of the draft. What if it was the otherway around and they took Polamalu and he turned out to be a bust and McDougle was a stud and they didn't grab their biggest position of need?

    But if you want another example look at the 2004 draft pick #32. The Pats took the best talent available in Watson, which having Graham they didn't exactly need to do. Who is the pick made right after? Dansby. We all knew Phifer and Johnson wouldn't be around for much longer. They could have drafted Dansby for need instead they signed Beisel (again 20/20 but it's an example of drafting for best talent verses need back firing) or we took Gus Scott in the 3rd when we could have grab Bob Sanders with pick #32. Point being drafting just talent just like drafting just need doesn't always work out you have to first judge the team. Are there any major holes or for the most part is it fixed? If it's fixed you can afford to take all the talent you can and see what happens. If you have major holes not filling those holes can end your teams season early so passing up on slightly better talent to fill that hole might be necessary. It's all about balance and last year there was a glaring hole in pass rush with no current FA's to plug that hole. So in this case thebiggest improvement to the team from last year might not be grabbing the best available talent that might only improve the team slightly but drafting the one that can greatly upgrade the biggest need.
     
  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    Mighty - why do you hate Merriweather so much? I mean it's not like he was voted to the pro-bowl this past season or anything.  He's improved every year and continues to improve. I think there are atleast 27 other teams in the league that would love to have Merriweather on their team.

    I agree on RB. I would gladly spend a 4th or 5th on a rb this year if a talented one is available. The one thing about RB though is that it's a position where a player can jump in from day 1 and succeed as opposed to typically the secondary or TE where it can take a couple years. We have Oak's #1 pick next year. That could net us the best rb in the draft next year so I don't see it being a void as much as adding depth for the future if we draft one this year.

    Odrick might be or might not be a 2 gapper but Wilfork and Warren are so if Odrick can hold his own with the running game and can rush past or overpower a T then he'd be fine. I'd rather have Graham but if we draft Pouncey or Kindle over Odrick would I be disappointed? nope
     
  23. You have chosen to ignore posts from themightypatriotz. Show themightypatriotz's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    I hate him because he was voted to the pro bowl when he is clearly deficient in the most important skill set of any defensive player ... tackling.  Voting him to that popularity contest says it's ok if you bounce off of running backs (or let them run by you as in 1st play of Baltimore game) so long as you put up big INT numbers.
     
  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from adam4522. Show adam4522's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    We will not draft 12 players.  We will trade a player or 3.  We will be moving up.  We will be adding picks next year.  We may even trade down out of the first.  We also could trde up in any round.  What does this all mean...our specific player guesses are likely to be way off.

    I do think we need at least 1 new OL, DE, OLB, either 2nd OLB or ILB, TE, P, WR, CB, and Maybe RB.  I hope we can find about 5 starters out of that list.  If we do that will be a great draft, no matter which positions they are.  With any luck 2 of them will be difference makers.  Biggest need are in OLB and OL IMHO, as DE and WR can be patched adequately if needed.
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from PatsEng. Show PatsEng's posts

    Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches

    In Response to Re: Tenches, Trenches, Trenches:
    [QUOTE]I hate him because he was voted to the pro bowl when he is clearly deficient in the most important skill set of any defensive player ... tackling.  Voting him to that popularity contest says it's ok if you bounce off of running backs (or let them run by you as in 1st play of Baltimore game) so long as you put up big INT numbers.
    Posted by themightypatriotz[/QUOTE]
     
    That's fair enough but if the RB is getting all the way to the secondary then there's trouble already. Merriweather is a great cover safety but he's not a Harrison type, that's what hopefully Chung will be. That's the point of having 2 safetiest, one to watch the line and plug the holes against runs and short passes and the other to cover over top if the CB gets beat (hence the titles FS and SS) Merriweather isn't a SS but the first couple years they tried to plug him in as Harrisons replacement since we didn't have a true SS on the team. Now hopefully McGowan or Chung will take over the SS and Merriweather wouldn't have to go against RB's. I mean you don't ask Warren to cover WR's why ask a FS to stuff the run? 

    Fixing the LB core and line will help with Merriweather and the rest of the secondary enormously
     
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