The "problems" with last year's offense

  1. You have chosen to ignore posts from prolate0spheroid. Show prolate0spheroid's posts

    The "problems" with last year's offense

    We've been over it too much already ourselves, but it's interesting to hear Brady talk about the offense's limits last year.  Here are three interesting quotes from Brady's interview with Kirwan and Ryan, courtesy of Mike Reiss on ESPN Boston:

    ON THE LACK OF DEEP AND PERIMETER RECEIVERS

    Last year’s passing attack and how much the Patriots attacked the perimeter? 
    “I think the strength of our team was between the numbers and that’s where a lot of the passes went. If they didn’t cover us outside, we threw it out there, but when you have Aaron [Hernandez] and Rob [Gronkowski] and Wes [Welker] on the inside, you have three pretty good players. Now Deion [Branch] made plenty of catches for us out there, but in terms of the contributions made on the outside, that was kind of our guy. Now you have Donte’ Stallworth, and Jabar [Gaffney] and Brandon, and still have Deion. There are some guys out there where we can really take advantage of some matchups. If you cover us inside, we’re going to throw it outside. If you cover us outside, we’re going to throw it inside. If you want to play deep, we’re going to throw it short. I think that’s good offensive football.” 

    ON THE WAY DEFENSES ADJUSTED TO THAT LACK OF DEEP/PERIMETER THREATS

    Have you noticed opponents packing in with underneath coverages? You have so many underneath options. 4-under is never enough. Five might not be enough the way you set it up. Do you see some unusual underneath coverages? 
    “Yeah, and I think over the course of the season, a lot of teams were trying to pack it in tight, and make us throw the ball deep and up the sideline. I think hopefully we can take advantage of that. Like I said, if you’re going to guard us short, we have to be able to throw it past you. And if you’re going to guard us deep, we’ll throw it underneath. You have to change up and have a lot of weapons. Like a boxer, you can’t just have one punch. You have to have many punches, and be able to set them up and throw them when you want to throw them, and bait a guy into thinking this is what you’re doing with something else.” 


    ON THE RUNNING GAME

    You were an effective first-down team throwing the football last year. I want you to talk about your running game – Stevan Ridley, Shane Vereen, Danny Woodhead – and how when that improves it will create more throwing opportunities on the early downs. 
    “As I said earlier, part of the passing game is seeing what they’re taking away, then doing something different. That’s the running game too. If they want to play pass and double coverage and who we’re bracketing, then you have to run it. I think we have some guys that we can really make some big plays with – between Woody and Rid and Shane, to see what they’re able to do. They’re out here working hard. That’s part of what the offense needs to be. It can’t be 2 yards, 3 yards. You have to make them pay. Some of the best offenses that we’ve ever had here, the running game was a huge part of what we did, especially situationally. You’re not always going to be able to pass it. When it’s third-and-1, you have to be able to run it. When you’re on the goal-line, you have to run it. When you’re backed up, you have to run it. Four-minute offense at the end of the game with the lead, you have to run it – they know you’re running it and you still have to make yards. That’s part of being a great running team, too.” 

    Better deep/perimeter threats, better runners . . . and I'd add better receivers out of the backfield . . . and we have the diversity on offense we didn't have last year.  Should help us in the playoffs and allow our HOF QB to fulfill his potential.  


     
  2. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    I have been preaching ever since they got rid of Moss that the deep threat would ultimately do the pats in and it has ever since Moss left.  They couldn't find a good replacement until hopefully now with Lloyd.

    And I have been preaching that the same thing will happen with the short to mid threat that Welker gives to this offense. 

    But nobody listens to me!!  Someone please tell BB to come read the forums.
     
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  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from BabeParilli. Show BabeParilli's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    I have been preaching ever since they got rid of Moss that the deep threat would ultimately do the pats in and it has ever since Moss left.  They couldn't find a good replacement until hopefully now with Lloyd. And I have been preaching that the same thing will happen with the short to mid threat that Welker gives to this offense.  But nobody listens to me!!  Someone please tell BB to come read the forums.
    Posted by TFB12


    I listened to you. BB has been groping to replace Moss ever since he left. His Ocho flop last year was certainly a huge disappointment to him.

    Can you imagine what 2007 would have been like if in addition to Moss and Welker they had a Gronk? They would have had to apply a mercy rule in half the games.
     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from tcal2-. Show tcal2-'s posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    19-0.
     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from Philskiw1. Show Philskiw1's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    I thought when Moss was traded this team played a lot better cause they didnt throw the ball into coverage to Moss every series. But hey, thats just my opinion.
     
  7. You have chosen to ignore posts from DoNotSleepOnThePats. Show DoNotSleepOnThePats's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    I thought when Moss was traded this team played a lot better cause they didnt throw the ball into coverage to Moss every series. But hey, thats just my opinion.
    Posted by Philskiw1


    They did play better when Moss was traded.  BJGE ran for over 1,000 yards and Brady threw 4 INTs all season.
     
  8. You have chosen to ignore posts from mthurl. Show mthurl's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    I heard the interview and thought this was exactly what I and others saw last year - an offense that couldn't threaten you outside. He is clearly trying not to throw Branch under the bus in the interview as well and he's classy enough not to mention Ocho by name.

    In my opinion despite the gaudy numbers from our offense, it was not a dominant or super talented group...it was two excellent tight ends, a great slot guy and an elite QB. Over and over again I watched our QB put that ball into some ridiculously tight spaces and then I would turn on the Packers or Saints and watch their QB's throw to guys that were separating all over the field.

    The thing about having your offense go through your tight ends is that you better believe that they will NOT be getting the pass interference calls that wide receivers get. Those guys were getting mugged. A guy like Hernandez maybe didn't get mugged as much because he has very rare explosiveness for the position, but Gronk had to use his size and strength a lot and some of those passes had to be perfect (great plays by both QB and tight end).

    Real good defenses can stop an offense like this and they did (Giants and Ravens)...with a running game and some outside threats it will be different.
     
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  10. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    This really means nothing until they start changing the way they call plays on GAMEDAY! I mean I would love to get excited and all, but it was Joshy who introduced the spread right??  Yea, this is just preseason smoke up the *ss!
    Posted by patsfan76


    Josh didn't introduce the spread offense, that was probably done before he was born. 

    Charlie Weis introduced Brady to the empty backfield 5 wide set, but he mixed in plenty of I-Formation with it.

    You are correct when you say better play calling is the answer, call a well rounded, balanced, unpredictable game and it will be 2007 all over again, hopefully with better results in the end because Joshy learns from his mistakes.

    There are and always have been plenty of fast guys on the Patriots, deep passes are usually the result of good play action drawing a defense up to the line and then burning them over the top.  We haven't seen that lately because without the threat of a run, there is no play action.


     
  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from digger0862. Show digger0862's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    I loved Charlie Weiss' playcalling. I've read that the Patriots are spending a lot of time working on screen passes in camp. That should help keep defenses off Brady.

    Another play I've heard them working on is the quick toss, a play other teams used often against our slow d-linemen last year.
     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    I loved Charlie Weiss' playcalling. I've read that the Patriots are spending a lot of time working on screen passes in camp. That should help keep defenses off Brady. Another play I've heard them working on is the quick toss, a play other teams used often against our slow d-linemen last year.
    Posted by digger0862


    I've read that too, good news. Creating plays that allow our playmaker's to gain yards after the catch and get the ball out of Tom's hand early are a plus. 

    Hopefully the backs get involved in the pass game more as well, pitches, screens and underneath dump off passes will be a welcome sight.  

    We need to go back to the days of "whoever is open" gets the ball and methodically grinding out first downs.  McDaniel did it in 07' and even more in 08' so I have high hopes.

     
  13. You have chosen to ignore posts from Sam-Adams. Show Sam-Adams's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    I still blame Obrien for it. It was very predictable what the Pats had for weapons and he didn't mix it up or try to keep anyone off balance. They had BJGE who ran for over a 1,000 the previous year and two kids with tons of potential and they still passed and passed.
    They had Ocho and other guys with speed who if they couldn't pick up the playbook at least keep them in there to take a corner out of the play. 

    And maybe it was me but did anyone else notice the lack of screens to Danny? 
     
  14. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    I still blame Obrien for it. It was very predictable what the Pats had for weapons and he didn't mix it up or try to keep anyone off balance. They had BJGE who ran for over a 1,000 the previous year and two kids with tons of potential and they still passed and passed. They had Ocho and other guys with speed who if they couldn't pick up the playbook at least keep them in there to take a corner out of the play.  And maybe it was me but did anyone else notice the lack of screens to Danny? 
    Posted by Sam-Adams


    What was especially revealing to me was the departure from the offensive philosophy.  

    Dave Meggett was the third down back for the Super Bowl winning Giant's back in the late 80's/early 90's.  He comes to play for the Parcell's Patriots and plays the same role. He passes the torch and knowledge on to Kevin Faulk who mans that position better than one can hope for a decade.

    When the time comes for Woody to take over, O'Brien makes him a featured back on every down and turns this offensive system on it's head. 

    The offense was blatantly predictable and utterly inefficient, only the best QB in the game could mask the weaknesses of it and only in the playoff's against superior defense were the weaknesses exposed.

    They handed a Ferrari over to a novice...


     
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  16. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    Laz, that is one of the best posts I have read on this subject. Very, very well done.
     
  17. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    I still blame Obrien for it. It was very predictable what the Pats had for weapons and he didn't mix it up or try to keep anyone off balance. They had BJGE who ran for over a 1,000 the previous year and two kids with tons of potential and they still passed and passed. They had Ocho and other guys with speed who if they couldn't pick up the playbook at least keep them in there to take a corner out of the play.  And maybe it was me but did anyone else notice the lack of screens to Danny? 
    Posted by Sam-Adams


    I share the same opinions Sam, and yes the screen pass was seldom used. It is really an enigma because Brady is the most accurate short to midfield passer of all time imo, and the best play action QB to ever live, yet we didn't use screens, FB's, RB receptions, or really much more of an offense other then the big 3 with some occasional Branch mixed in.

    Some here think we were short on talent. I think that is preposterous, as we scored 33 ppg and broke a 30 year passing record for yards. We just didn't call a diverse game plan.
     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from tjwoods. Show tjwoods's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    Did the Pats win a Super Bowl with Moss?

    Do I wish they had Randy back? Absolutely. I hope Brandon breaks all the single season records for WR w/Tom Brady and we get taht 4th Lombardi.

    Keep your eyes on the ball people . . . Defense wins championships. Not sure?
    Ask the Giants.
     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from JohnHannahrulz. Show JohnHannahrulz's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    My only concerns for the Pats offense are: can they run the ball effectively when they need to, will Lloyd's presence mean the field opens up on intermediate routes;  can the offensive line  stay healthy? If the answer to all these questions is yes....then watch out. Another concern will be how this offense plays against the good Ds on the schedule (Ravens, Steelers, Texans, 49ers). Can the O win a TOP/Field Position game? The goal of most teams will still be to keep Brady and the O off the field and get the Pats D tired by the 4th quarter. The good news is it looks like Bequette and Jones will be part of the D Line rotation and LB corps (add Hightower) looks as good as it has (on paper) in the last five years.
     
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  22. You have chosen to ignore posts from TrueChamp. Show TrueChamp's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    My only concerns for the Pats offense are: can they run the ball effectively when they need to, will Lloyd's presence mean the field opens up on intermediate routes;  can the offensive line  stay healthy? If the answer to all these questions is yes....then watch out. Another concern will be how this offense plays against the good Ds on the schedule (Ravens, Steelers, Texans, 49ers). Can the O win a TOP/Field Position game? The goal of most teams will still be to keep Brady and the O off the field and get the Pats D tired by the 4th quarter. The good news is it looks like Bequette and Jones will be part of the D Line rotation and LB corps (add Hightower) looks as good as it has (on paper) in the last five years.
    Posted by JohnHannahrulz


    Hannah,(and I will copy this to Prolate) I agree with your questions, however how much more open do you think the field can get on intermediate routes? i see 3 guys using intermediate routes for the majority of the game, WW,Gronk and AH. They all caught over 70% of their targets which is good for top 5 or 6 in the league. If 3 guys play primarily in the middle of the field and catch over 70% of their 300 targets EDIT:(400 targets)then do we really need improvement in that area?

    I think your last question ties into that as well...can we play well against good defense's? In order to do that it is going to have to be about more then Brandon Lloyd stretching the field. It has to be about utilizing every player on the offensive roster. We no longer do that imo. Guys like JR Redmond,Marc Edwards, Fauria, were never great players but we used them anyway because it kept the defense guessing.

    We don't need all stars at every skill position like we have now, we need to execute a diverse game plan. The personnel imo has less to do with that execution then does a sound offensive game plan. 
     
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  24. You have chosen to ignore posts from agcsbill. Show agcsbill's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    If there is a "problem" with the Pats' offense, IMHO, it does not live up to the expectations of the fans 100% of the time.  Seems the O is damned if it does and damned if it doesn't.  If an offense can perform at peak efficiency every game, that is one thing, but, a team's overall play can vary game to game.  Haven't we seen last year an offense that couldn't be stopped or a defense that seemed to be the dominating defense we wanted then the very next game we are all going: " What the F is this?"  We also have to give credit to the other team as they may bring new schemes to the game not expected.  I do not think if you asked other NFL teams if the Patriots offense has problems they'd say "yes" overwhelmingly like we seem to see here.  It is all in the expectations placed on it versus what the team knows it can do. 
     
  25. You have chosen to ignore posts from wozzy. Show wozzy's posts

    Re: The "problems" with last year's offense

    In Response to Re: The "problems" with last year's offense:
    Wozzy , Charlie may have been the first but it wasnt the featured formation. We still established the run first and only went to the spread in no hudlle, 2 minute situations mostly. When Joshy came he made it the Primary Base offense. I have never felt this team didnt have enough offensively to win. Some years were better than others, but the year in 06 when Brady had nothing we were still 2 minutes from going to a SB so I dont buy the personnel stuff. Its just arrogance. Last year as well as we played, our playaction was NON-Existent. This and our lack of passes to running backs and lack of screens made our offense VERY PREDICTABLE. Most of it couldnt be noticed on game day when you are in front of the t.v. watching T.B. move the ball but when an opposing defense coordinator looked at the film, they would clearly see a 2 man offense in Gronk in Wes with no RUN game to turn to and no playaction either as a result of not establishing the run. In his Hay, Brady was by far and away the best playaction passer in the league and his qb rating was over 100 in those situations. Last few years there has been no run commitment and no playaction which used to drive this offense.  So when Brady was young, we gave him all the help he needed and now that he is aging we are asking him to win by himself??!?!!  yea, sounds good! Like I said, I will believe IT, when I see IT! After 5 years of fundementally F*cked Football, you would think SOMEONE would wake up by now....smh
    Posted by patsfan76


    All I can say is McDaniel's channeled the ghost of Charlie Weis in 08' when Brady went down and Cassel took over and he did an amazing job, so I have to assume he can do it again. Beyond that I can't disagree with anything you said.

     
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