The Brady "problem" and drafting wideouts

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    Re: The Brady

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

     

    Well written, but flawed IMO.  I was with you through the first 2 paragraphs.  It is true that the ball is leaving TB's hands quicker.  I too believe that is by design.  But it is also true that his Y/C is above his career avg. in each of the last 3 years and better than his first 3 years.  This, without having a deep threat since Moss left and no great WR with YAC.  Also, while you say that the bubble screen was an "occasional call" in 2004, the reality is they employed the screen pass and checkdowns more in the Weis era.  Maybe it's semantics but middle screens, bubble screens, slip screens, and checkdowns were a huge part of Weis' playbook.  Heck, Kevin Faulk feasted off those plays.  Which brings me to point 3:  I did not see you mention the running game at all.  A successful running game is critical to an overall offense.  In the early years (again under Weis) they ran more 2-back sets and ran the draw more.  In today's NFL, partly due to rule changes, all offenses are more pass-centric.  With a 2 TE set and 1 back (or no back) backfields it stands to reason the QB has less pocket protection and will need to release the ball sooner.

     

     

    Hey catfish,


    On bolded point 1 above, it's good that his Y/C is better, but that is not pertinent when you need to make a first down during the playoffs against a top-notch defense. (In fact, it would be interesting to see if his playoff y/c rate is better.) Those D's could key on Welker and the quick middle hits that the Pats have relied on. In these situations, you need to expend more time so the receivers can get open if the quick-hit isn't there.

    On point 2, I mention the bubble screen because it's such a fast developing play. The ball is usually out of Brady's hands in less than a second. The screens Weis would call took time to develop; the opposing D had to defend near the line of scrimmage and downfield.

    On point 3, I agree completely. A running game is key. I think they have the backs to have an excellent running game. A beefier, beastier OL can only help that.

     

    In essence, what I am saying is before pouring a ton of money into wide receivers, pour it into world class lineman, so the receivers have more time to get open. You can still go quick 2/3 of the time. But when you NEED a first down, you want the extra second.



    agreed brady has not got anywhere ner the time other good o lines give thier qb ie baltimore.

     
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    Re: The Brady

    In response to Paul_K's comment:

    The Patriots just set an NFL record for most first downs in a season.  The offense is carrying the defense like Joe Andruzzi carrying a wounded mom.  "Problem" is a curious way to describe the phenomenon.  I'd rather say that BB is deliberately changing the way the NFL game is played, and the other teams can go lump it.  Someday the other 31 NFL teams will figure out that they too need lightning-fast dink and dunk quarterbacks and either explosive guys or guys with massive wingspans that can get wide open 8 yards downfield.  



    "The Patriots just set an NFL record for most first downs in a season"

    yeah but the linie doesnt hold up consistently for mor than a few seconds against better d lines

     
  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    Okay, the title is a little misleading, as it's hard to call one of the 2 or 3 best QBs to ever play the game a "problem". But Brady has changed, by necessity I would argue, and the offensive philosophy has morphed to meet that change...and that has created somewhat of a problem. Fans on this forum like to point out that the Pats won Super Bowls with guys like David Patton, David Givens and Troy Brown as our top receivers, and while that is an inarguable fact, it is highly unlikely that they could do the same today.


    This past weekend, I found a couple of videocassettes of games I taped between the 2001-2004 seasons (finding the remote for the VCR was quite a task, lol), and I watched a good part of 4 or 5 games. And one thing jumped out at me over after over...Brady's toughness.  It was eye-opening (or, more accurately, memory-inducing) to review just how many times the young Tom Brady would stand in the pocket until the very last instant before delivering the ball...followed by taking a monster hit. He was Favre-like in that regard (though better than Favre in everything else). And when Brady took those hits, he would jump off the turf smiling, and talking smack to Jason Taylor or Dwight Freeney. Brady loved the contact, and that lack of fear bought an extra second or more for his receivers to get open downfield.

    Of course, you don't want your 30-something QB taking the same hits that your 25-year-old QB did. (Brady did not jump up smiling when Dumervil planted him into the turf the year before last.) The Pats' response to this has largely been changing the playbook, to where now most passes are out of Brady's hand in under 2.5 seconds, with many escaping in well under 2 seconds. While this forces opposing defenses to be highly alert, it also removes many routes from the receiver tree, making it easier for atheletic, well-coached Ds to focus on short routes to favorite targets. The bubble screen was an occasional call in 2004, not the staple that it is today. This new philosophy has become so ingrained that once the 3-second mark goes off in Brady's head, he begins to "turtle"...even when there is no imminent pressure around him.

    This philosophy also makes it harder to draft wide receivers, and folks are quick to point out BB's poor record here. Many of us talk about our wish for a "tall receiver" or a "speed demon who can stretch the field." But what the Pats covet most, in the current philosophy, is a guy who can consistently read the defense, get open, in the RIGHT SPOT, in under 2 seconds. It's damned hard to draft such guys (or scout free agent WRs, for that matter) when nobody else plays this way.

    While I don't knock the philosophy, I think it must be augmented by beefing up the offensive line to all-world levels. Joe Flacco is not a better QB than Tom Brady. But Joe Flacco looked light years better than Tom Brady in the playoffs this year because Joe Flacco has 4.5 seconds to throw the ball, allowing his guys to make the second or third move to get open. Even the 49ers great D couldn't get to him much; the nimble Kaepernick was out-sacked 3-2 by the Ravens' D. We need to stop just relying on Scar's skillset, and give him some exceptional talent to work with.

    Vollmer (when healthy) is an elite lineman, and Solder could be getting there. Mankins, however, is overpaid while the other guys, while hard-working and well-coached, are JAGs. I'd like to see the Pats cut ties with Mankins, and allot Vollmer type money ($3.5-$6 million apiece) to every position on the line, and grab the beastiest players that money can buy.

    I believe if they did that--so that Brady is given the confidence that he will have 3.5 seconds to get rid of the ball--they won't need to draft all-world receivers.

    Even Ocho and Galloway would have had more productive seasons.

     



    Pretty good post up to the Mankins part. I am sorry but I just do not agree with you there. He is a beast. The prototype of lineman BB wants. If he has underperformed at times it has mostly been due to health I think (consider the last SB v the Giants for example).

     

    I think Solder is going to be especially good - and he is pretty decent now. But he does need to get to the next level. Volmer is a bit better though I do not think he has the upside of Solder as a pass blocker. I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well.

    I also think we need to continue to improve the running game in order to keep the D more honest and so give TB that extra 0,5 to 1.0 seconds.

     



    "I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well."

    i said this all year too. but we have so few draft  picks and neend a pss rusher most, a big outside wr who can spearate and snag teh ball in traffic. and we didnt get the extra cb we needed in fa nor abraham. so we coudl go o line with 1 of 3 top picks but we have so many needs.

     
  4. You have chosen to ignore posts from bredbru. Show bredbru's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    Okay, the title is a little misleading, as it's hard to call one of the 2 or 3 best QBs to ever play the game a "problem". But Brady has changed, by necessity I would argue, and the offensive philosophy has morphed to meet that change...and that has created somewhat of a problem. Fans on this forum like to point out that the Pats won Super Bowls with guys like David Patton, David Givens and Troy Brown as our top receivers, and while that is an inarguable fact, it is highly unlikely that they could do the same today.


    This past weekend, I found a couple of videocassettes of games I taped between the 2001-2004 seasons (finding the remote for the VCR was quite a task, lol), and I watched a good part of 4 or 5 games. And one thing jumped out at me over after over...Brady's toughness.  It was eye-opening (or, more accurately, memory-inducing) to review just how many times the young Tom Brady would stand in the pocket until the very last instant before delivering the ball...followed by taking a monster hit. He was Favre-like in that regard (though better than Favre in everything else). And when Brady took those hits, he would jump off the turf smiling, and talking smack to Jason Taylor or Dwight Freeney. Brady loved the contact, and that lack of fear bought an extra second or more for his receivers to get open downfield.

    Of course, you don't want your 30-something QB taking the same hits that your 25-year-old QB did. (Brady did not jump up smiling when Dumervil planted him into the turf the year before last.) The Pats' response to this has largely been changing the playbook, to where now most passes are out of Brady's hand in under 2.5 seconds, with many escaping in well under 2 seconds. While this forces opposing defenses to be highly alert, it also removes many routes from the receiver tree, making it easier for atheletic, well-coached Ds to focus on short routes to favorite targets. The bubble screen was an occasional call in 2004, not the staple that it is today. This new philosophy has become so ingrained that once the 3-second mark goes off in Brady's head, he begins to "turtle"...even when there is no imminent pressure around him.

    This philosophy also makes it harder to draft wide receivers, and folks are quick to point out BB's poor record here. Many of us talk about our wish for a "tall receiver" or a "speed demon who can stretch the field." But what the Pats covet most, in the current philosophy, is a guy who can consistently read the defense, get open, in the RIGHT SPOT, in under 2 seconds. It's damned hard to draft such guys (or scout free agent WRs, for that matter) when nobody else plays this way.

    While I don't knock the philosophy, I think it must be augmented by beefing up the offensive line to all-world levels. Joe Flacco is not a better QB than Tom Brady. But Joe Flacco looked light years better than Tom Brady in the playoffs this year because Joe Flacco has 4.5 seconds to throw the ball, allowing his guys to make the second or third move to get open. Even the 49ers great D couldn't get to him much; the nimble Kaepernick was out-sacked 3-2 by the Ravens' D. We need to stop just relying on Scar's skillset, and give him some exceptional talent to work with.

    Vollmer (when healthy) is an elite lineman, and Solder could be getting there. Mankins, however, is overpaid while the other guys, while hard-working and well-coached, are JAGs. I'd like to see the Pats cut ties with Mankins, and allot Vollmer type money ($3.5-$6 million apiece) to every position on the line, and grab the beastiest players that money can buy.

    I believe if they did that--so that Brady is given the confidence that he will have 3.5 seconds to get rid of the ball--they won't need to draft all-world receivers.

    Even Ocho and Galloway would have had more productive seasons.

     



    Pretty good post up to the Mankins part. I am sorry but I just do not agree with you there. He is a beast. The prototype of lineman BB wants. If he has underperformed at times it has mostly been due to health I think (consider the last SB v the Giants for example).

     

    I think Solder is going to be especially good - and he is pretty decent now. But he does need to get to the next level. Volmer is a bit better though I do not think he has the upside of Solder as a pass blocker. I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well.

    I also think we need to continue to improve the running game in order to keep the D more honest and so give TB that extra 0,5 to 1.0 seconds.

     



    the biggest thing beside c and rt guard is improving the sequence of running. josh has never been an oc who is going to maximize both run and pass. he runs only as an aferthought or when he has to. its not mixed into the game plan well nor does he maximize the threat by forcing the defense to leave something that can be exploited open (ie making the defense make a choice we can exploit with 1 of 3 options). its been long enough, i dont think he has it in him. seems to me he will never be more than adequate and if pats win anthing it will have ot be on sheer talent.

     
  5. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    Okay, the title is a little misleading, as it's hard to call one of the 2 or 3 best QBs to ever play the game a "problem". But Brady has changed, by necessity I would argue, and the offensive philosophy has morphed to meet that change...and that has created somewhat of a problem. Fans on this forum like to point out that the Pats won Super Bowls with guys like David Patton, David Givens and Troy Brown as our top receivers, and while that is an inarguable fact, it is highly unlikely that they could do the same today.


    This past weekend, I found a couple of videocassettes of games I taped between the 2001-2004 seasons (finding the remote for the VCR was quite a task, lol), and I watched a good part of 4 or 5 games. And one thing jumped out at me over after over...Brady's toughness.  It was eye-opening (or, more accurately, memory-inducing) to review just how many times the young Tom Brady would stand in the pocket until the very last instant before delivering the ball...followed by taking a monster hit. He was Favre-like in that regard (though better than Favre in everything else). And when Brady took those hits, he would jump off the turf smiling, and talking smack to Jason Taylor or Dwight Freeney. Brady loved the contact, and that lack of fear bought an extra second or more for his receivers to get open downfield.

    Of course, you don't want your 30-something QB taking the same hits that your 25-year-old QB did. (Brady did not jump up smiling when Dumervil planted him into the turf the year before last.) The Pats' response to this has largely been changing the playbook, to where now most passes are out of Brady's hand in under 2.5 seconds, with many escaping in well under 2 seconds. While this forces opposing defenses to be highly alert, it also removes many routes from the receiver tree, making it easier for atheletic, well-coached Ds to focus on short routes to favorite targets. The bubble screen was an occasional call in 2004, not the staple that it is today. This new philosophy has become so ingrained that once the 3-second mark goes off in Brady's head, he begins to "turtle"...even when there is no imminent pressure around him.

    This philosophy also makes it harder to draft wide receivers, and folks are quick to point out BB's poor record here. Many of us talk about our wish for a "tall receiver" or a "speed demon who can stretch the field." But what the Pats covet most, in the current philosophy, is a guy who can consistently read the defense, get open, in the RIGHT SPOT, in under 2 seconds. It's damned hard to draft such guys (or scout free agent WRs, for that matter) when nobody else plays this way.

    While I don't knock the philosophy, I think it must be augmented by beefing up the offensive line to all-world levels. Joe Flacco is not a better QB than Tom Brady. But Joe Flacco looked light years better than Tom Brady in the playoffs this year because Joe Flacco has 4.5 seconds to throw the ball, allowing his guys to make the second or third move to get open. Even the 49ers great D couldn't get to him much; the nimble Kaepernick was out-sacked 3-2 by the Ravens' D. We need to stop just relying on Scar's skillset, and give him some exceptional talent to work with.

    Vollmer (when healthy) is an elite lineman, and Solder could be getting there. Mankins, however, is overpaid while the other guys, while hard-working and well-coached, are JAGs. I'd like to see the Pats cut ties with Mankins, and allot Vollmer type money ($3.5-$6 million apiece) to every position on the line, and grab the beastiest players that money can buy.

    I believe if they did that--so that Brady is given the confidence that he will have 3.5 seconds to get rid of the ball--they won't need to draft all-world receivers.

    Even Ocho and Galloway would have had more productive seasons.

     



    Pretty good post up to the Mankins part. I am sorry but I just do not agree with you there. He is a beast. The prototype of lineman BB wants. If he has underperformed at times it has mostly been due to health I think (consider the last SB v the Giants for example).

     

    I think Solder is going to be especially good - and he is pretty decent now. But he does need to get to the next level. Volmer is a bit better though I do not think he has the upside of Solder as a pass blocker. I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well.

    I also think we need to continue to improve the running game in order to keep the D more honest and so give TB that extra 0,5 to 1.0 seconds.

     

     



    the biggest thing beside c and rt guard is improving the sequence of running. josh has never been an oc who is going to maximize both run and pass. he runs only as an aferthought or when he has to. its not mixed into the game plan well nor does he maximize the threat by forcing the defense to leave something that can be exploited open (ie making the defense make a choice we can exploit with 1 of 3 options). its been long enough, i dont think he has it in him. seems to me he will never be more than adequate and if pats win anthing it will have ot be on sheer talent.

     



    The game plan is on BB. Josh then executes the plan, and it is on Brady to make a change at the line depending on what he sees. 

    The thought that the shot gun, or hurry up, or not being under center is on anyone other than BB is ludicrous. 

    Josh is calling plays, but within the framework of what BB wants. If BB wants Brady under center, or wants more running plays, than that is what Josh will play call. 

    Rusty sits here all year and bashes Brady and licks BB's toes, but the offense and defense style of play, tempo and plays on the play chart that Josh will call or Brady will audible to is all BB. 

    To think that Josh is on his own, or Brady is freelancing out there and BB is 100% in control of this offense is Rusty being a troll. 

     
  6. You have chosen to ignore posts from portfolio1. Show portfolio1's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to bredbru's comment:

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    Okay, the title is a little misleading, as it's hard to call one of the 2 or 3 best QBs to ever play the game a "problem". But Brady has changed, by necessity I would argue, and the offensive philosophy has morphed to meet that change...and that has created somewhat of a problem. Fans on this forum like to point out that the Pats won Super Bowls with guys like David Patton, David Givens and Troy Brown as our top receivers, and while that is an inarguable fact, it is highly unlikely that they could do the same today.


    This past weekend, I found a couple of videocassettes of games I taped between the 2001-2004 seasons (finding the remote for the VCR was quite a task, lol), and I watched a good part of 4 or 5 games. And one thing jumped out at me over after over...Brady's toughness.  It was eye-opening (or, more accurately, memory-inducing) to review just how many times the young Tom Brady would stand in the pocket until the very last instant before delivering the ball...followed by taking a monster hit. He was Favre-like in that regard (though better than Favre in everything else). And when Brady took those hits, he would jump off the turf smiling, and talking smack to Jason Taylor or Dwight Freeney. Brady loved the contact, and that lack of fear bought an extra second or more for his receivers to get open downfield.

    Of course, you don't want your 30-something QB taking the same hits that your 25-year-old QB did. (Brady did not jump up smiling when Dumervil planted him into the turf the year before last.) The Pats' response to this has largely been changing the playbook, to where now most passes are out of Brady's hand in under 2.5 seconds, with many escaping in well under 2 seconds. While this forces opposing defenses to be highly alert, it also removes many routes from the receiver tree, making it easier for atheletic, well-coached Ds to focus on short routes to favorite targets. The bubble screen was an occasional call in 2004, not the staple that it is today. This new philosophy has become so ingrained that once the 3-second mark goes off in Brady's head, he begins to "turtle"...even when there is no imminent pressure around him.

    This philosophy also makes it harder to draft wide receivers, and folks are quick to point out BB's poor record here. Many of us talk about our wish for a "tall receiver" or a "speed demon who can stretch the field." But what the Pats covet most, in the current philosophy, is a guy who can consistently read the defense, get open, in the RIGHT SPOT, in under 2 seconds. It's damned hard to draft such guys (or scout free agent WRs, for that matter) when nobody else plays this way.

    While I don't knock the philosophy, I think it must be augmented by beefing up the offensive line to all-world levels. Joe Flacco is not a better QB than Tom Brady. But Joe Flacco looked light years better than Tom Brady in the playoffs this year because Joe Flacco has 4.5 seconds to throw the ball, allowing his guys to make the second or third move to get open. Even the 49ers great D couldn't get to him much; the nimble Kaepernick was out-sacked 3-2 by the Ravens' D. We need to stop just relying on Scar's skillset, and give him some exceptional talent to work with.

    Vollmer (when healthy) is an elite lineman, and Solder could be getting there. Mankins, however, is overpaid while the other guys, while hard-working and well-coached, are JAGs. I'd like to see the Pats cut ties with Mankins, and allot Vollmer type money ($3.5-$6 million apiece) to every position on the line, and grab the beastiest players that money can buy.

    I believe if they did that--so that Brady is given the confidence that he will have 3.5 seconds to get rid of the ball--they won't need to draft all-world receivers.

    Even Ocho and Galloway would have had more productive seasons.

     



    Pretty good post up to the Mankins part. I am sorry but I just do not agree with you there. He is a beast. The prototype of lineman BB wants. If he has underperformed at times it has mostly been due to health I think (consider the last SB v the Giants for example).

     

    I think Solder is going to be especially good - and he is pretty decent now. But he does need to get to the next level. Volmer is a bit better though I do not think he has the upside of Solder as a pass blocker. I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well.

    I also think we need to continue to improve the running game in order to keep the D more honest and so give TB that extra 0,5 to 1.0 seconds.

     

     



    "I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well."

     

    i said this all year too. but we have so few draft  picks and neend a pss rusher most, a big outside wr who can spearate and snag teh ball in traffic. and we didnt get the extra cb we needed in fa nor abraham. so we coudl go o line with 1 of 3 top picks but we have so many needs.



    No argument here. THough I am never surprised when a well built team decides to go after either an O or D lineman. Not sexy picks usually but that is where teams are built.

     

     
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  9. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to bredbru's comment:

     

    In response to portfolio1's comment:

     

    In response to NY-PATS-FAN4's comment:

     

    Okay, the title is a little misleading, as it's hard to call one of the 2 or 3 best QBs to ever play the game a "problem". But Brady has changed, by necessity I would argue, and the offensive philosophy has morphed to meet that change...and that has created somewhat of a problem. Fans on this forum like to point out that the Pats won Super Bowls with guys like David Patton, David Givens and Troy Brown as our top receivers, and while that is an inarguable fact, it is highly unlikely that they could do the same today.


    This past weekend, I found a couple of videocassettes of games I taped between the 2001-2004 seasons (finding the remote for the VCR was quite a task, lol), and I watched a good part of 4 or 5 games. And one thing jumped out at me over after over...Brady's toughness.  It was eye-opening (or, more accurately, memory-inducing) to review just how many times the young Tom Brady would stand in the pocket until the very last instant before delivering the ball...followed by taking a monster hit. He was Favre-like in that regard (though better than Favre in everything else). And when Brady took those hits, he would jump off the turf smiling, and talking smack to Jason Taylor or Dwight Freeney. Brady loved the contact, and that lack of fear bought an extra second or more for his receivers to get open downfield.

    Of course, you don't want your 30-something QB taking the same hits that your 25-year-old QB did. (Brady did not jump up smiling when Dumervil planted him into the turf the year before last.) The Pats' response to this has largely been changing the playbook, to where now most passes are out of Brady's hand in under 2.5 seconds, with many escaping in well under 2 seconds. While this forces opposing defenses to be highly alert, it also removes many routes from the receiver tree, making it easier for atheletic, well-coached Ds to focus on short routes to favorite targets. The bubble screen was an occasional call in 2004, not the staple that it is today. This new philosophy has become so ingrained that once the 3-second mark goes off in Brady's head, he begins to "turtle"...even when there is no imminent pressure around him.

    This philosophy also makes it harder to draft wide receivers, and folks are quick to point out BB's poor record here. Many of us talk about our wish for a "tall receiver" or a "speed demon who can stretch the field." But what the Pats covet most, in the current philosophy, is a guy who can consistently read the defense, get open, in the RIGHT SPOT, in under 2 seconds. It's damned hard to draft such guys (or scout free agent WRs, for that matter) when nobody else plays this way.

    While I don't knock the philosophy, I think it must be augmented by beefing up the offensive line to all-world levels. Joe Flacco is not a better QB than Tom Brady. But Joe Flacco looked light years better than Tom Brady in the playoffs this year because Joe Flacco has 4.5 seconds to throw the ball, allowing his guys to make the second or third move to get open. Even the 49ers great D couldn't get to him much; the nimble Kaepernick was out-sacked 3-2 by the Ravens' D. We need to stop just relying on Scar's skillset, and give him some exceptional talent to work with.

    Vollmer (when healthy) is an elite lineman, and Solder could be getting there. Mankins, however, is overpaid while the other guys, while hard-working and well-coached, are JAGs. I'd like to see the Pats cut ties with Mankins, and allot Vollmer type money ($3.5-$6 million apiece) to every position on the line, and grab the beastiest players that money can buy.

    I believe if they did that--so that Brady is given the confidence that he will have 3.5 seconds to get rid of the ball--they won't need to draft all-world receivers.

    Even Ocho and Galloway would have had more productive seasons.

     



    Pretty good post up to the Mankins part. I am sorry but I just do not agree with you there. He is a beast. The prototype of lineman BB wants. If he has underperformed at times it has mostly been due to health I think (consider the last SB v the Giants for example).

     

    I think Solder is going to be especially good - and he is pretty decent now. But he does need to get to the next level. Volmer is a bit better though I do not think he has the upside of Solder as a pass blocker. I think the two places we can upgrade the most are C and RG though both are decent players. BUt I would love to see one of those positions upgraded to a stud and for the reasons you give. And it would help the running game as well.

    I also think we need to continue to improve the running game in order to keep the D more honest and so give TB that extra 0,5 to 1.0 seconds.

     

     



    the biggest thing beside c and rt guard is improving the sequence of running. josh has never been an oc who is going to maximize both run and pass. he runs only as an aferthought or when he has to. its not mixed into the game plan well nor does he maximize the threat by forcing the defense to leave something that can be exploited open (ie making the defense make a choice we can exploit with 1 of 3 options). its been long enough, i dont think he has it in him. seems to me he will never be more than adequate and if pats win anthing it will have ot be on sheer talent.

     

     



    The game plan is on BB. Josh then executes the plan, and it is on Brady to make a change at the line depending on what he sees. 

     

    The thought that the shot gun, or hurry up, or not being under center is on anyone other than BB is ludicrous. 

    Josh is calling plays, but within the framework of what BB wants. If BB wants Brady under center, or wants more running plays, than that is what Josh will play call. 

    Rusty sits here all year and bashes Brady and licks BB's toes, but the offense and defense style of play, tempo and plays on the play chart that Josh will call or Brady will audible to is all BB. 

    To think that Josh is on his own, or Brady is freelancing out there and BB is 100% in control of this offense is Rusty being a troll. 

     



    False. I think the gameplan is a combined decision. All final decisions go to BB, yes. It's not like McDaniels and Brady conspire without him. Stop being a child. But, I believe BB defers heavily to Brady at this point of his career.

     

    Absolutely. We saw Brady SUGGESTING changes to a play in the playbook with BB agreeing, during the BB A Football Life documentary in 2009 leading into the Baltimore game at home, one I was actually at. Yes.

    Brady has power that most QBs do not have. I would be a similar thing was going on with Shula and Marino towards the back end of his career. Yes.

    Manning could gameplan and run his offense in Denver tomorrow with no OC and blindfolded.

    Yes.

    I would also suggest that QBs like Brees and Rodgers also have similar powers at this point.

    As a coach, I would do something similar. You want your QB comfortable and to make decisions they usually execute very well.

    This idea that Brady is some robot with no autonomy is preposterous.  Regardless, of who is right on this, the fact is, it's up to Brady to throw, to not to throw it, or make a good decision when he does audible.

    But, you'd have to be blind as a bat to watch any Weis era game and then see how Brady maneuvers today, to not see differences.

    Blind as a bat.



    I would agrgue that TB is a better QB today, and better able to run what BB wants. Spread, hurry up, quick passes.

    I know you disagree, but I am of the opinion that BB knew his defense stunk these past few years, and he needed to outscore opponants, they werent stopping anyone. BB, and this is his coaching genius, totally orchestrated this offense, knowing Brady could run it, audible it and put up 30 plus almost every game. BB also knew Obrien and Josh could play call it a break neck speed.

    BB's pure genius was creating this break neck offense...but his even greater genius was scheming the defense to cover the total lack of talent at many, many positions (2010 and 2011 more so than 2012)

    I also am of the opinion if BB said to burn the clock and run it 20 straight times, that is what they would do. (not that it would succeed)

     

     
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  11. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    I think it was fine in 2005, 2006, 2007, etc, but you could see it flounder by 2009.  BB then saw it and dealt Moss, tweaking the 2010 offense on the fly.

    I would agree the strategy of it was too score more, duh, but if what you're saying is correct, how does that explain the 2007 defense or the 2005 or 2006 one?

    You're contradicting yourself.

    I think it's as simple as BB knowing, as do all coaches, that with the Chuck Rule enforcement in 2004, tied to Goodell in 2006, being asked to grow the league, it's about ratings, revenue, etc, which means more points scored so Sally Smith in her pink hat can enjoy watching the NFL.

    That simple.

    My premise is that it's been maxed out and gone overboard. 

    I literally sit there and cringe watching this offense come out in that finesse shotgun spread to start games against the good Ds.

    I can tell you right now on our schedule who will we lose to this year based on the quality of the defense our team will play. If we play a good or great one and pull this crap again, we will lose and it will come via a blown lead, where it is really rooted by our offense playing like crap over huge chunks of the game, to the point of flat out disappearing or fading away.

    Also, I would say this to BB's face or Brady's face. It's so beyond ridiculous to be absolutely ignoring the evidence at this point.

     



    you can disagree or agree with the philosophy and why it happened. but that is off topic. the topic is that the philosophy of running this offense shouldnt be put on Bradys doorstep, other than the fact that he can and has run it at HOF levels.

    Make no mistake, running this offense, defense, the draft, my pet peeve free agency....all of it has BB's stamp of approval and finger prints all over it. You very well know if BB didnt want to run shot gun or hurry up, then the PAts/Josh/Brady would not be doing it.

    BB fully realizes he is not winning 12-14 games with 13-10 or 17-14 scores and running the ball 40 times per game

     
  12. You have chosen to ignore posts from TripleOG. Show TripleOG's posts

    Re: The Brady

    As usual rusty doesnt read the post and just the title and looks like a fool. I happen to agree with the poster that the short passing game is a detriment of sorts because we arent challening the outside part of the field and the corner routes are dead. Only time to develop thoses routes is thru playaction which has become a lost art here. Ive see many times where Brady forces it inside and not even look outside but in his defense his outside options compared to what he has outside is like comparing Top Shelf to Bum Juice

     
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  15. You have chosen to ignore posts from rkarp. Show rkarp's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

     

    I think it was fine in 2005, 2006, 2007, etc, but you could see it flounder by 2009.  BB then saw it and dealt Moss, tweaking the 2010 offense on the fly.

    I would agree the strategy of it was too score more, duh, but if what you're saying is correct, how does that explain the 2007 defense or the 2005 or 2006 one?

    You're contradicting yourself.

    I think it's as simple as BB knowing, as do all coaches, that with the Chuck Rule enforcement in 2004, tied to Goodell in 2006, being asked to grow the league, it's about ratings, revenue, etc, which means more points scored so Sally Smith in her pink hat can enjoy watching the NFL.

    That simple.

    My premise is that it's been maxed out and gone overboard. 

    I literally sit there and cringe watching this offense come out in that finesse shotgun spread to start games against the good Ds.

    I can tell you right now on our schedule who will we lose to this year based on the quality of the defense our team will play. If we play a good or great one and pull this crap again, we will lose and it will come via a blown lead, where it is really rooted by our offense playing like crap over huge chunks of the game, to the point of flat out disappearing or fading away.

    Also, I would say this to BB's face or Brady's face. It's so beyond ridiculous to be absolutely ignoring the evidence at this point.

     

     



    you can disagree or agree with the philosophy and why it happened. but that is off topic. the topic is that the philosophy of running this offense shouldnt be put on Bradys doorstep, other than the fact that he can and has run it at HOF levels.

     

    Make no mistake, running this offense, defense, the draft, my pet peeve free agency....all of it has BB's stamp of approval and finger prints all over it. You very well know if BB didnt want to run shot gun or hurry up, then the PAts/Josh/Brady would not be doing it.

    BB fully realizes he is not winning 12-14 games with 13-10 or 17-14 scores and running the ball 40 times per game

     



    Umm, I am not convinced he knows that specific 40+ barometer exists as deep as it does. Do I think he looks back at the losses and looks the box score and notices the imbalance? Yes.

     

    But, I am not convinced he realizes how long the list is.

    I'll give you an example:

    @ NY Jets 2011.....Our offense was being run correctly, but they weren't doing well in terms of scoring in the first half.   Ridley had a slew of carries, Brady was under Center, Ochco Cinco was looking good, etc.

    Brady, however, wasn't as good as he could have been where NY dropped 3 INTs, one a pick 6 opp from Kyle WIlson.

    My point is, the approach was right.   What it did was open up the playbook in the second half.  It's a huge reason why Brady went off and looked like a different QB. The fact they were focused on continuing to hand off to Ridley even with limited results, was huge.

    Babe, the moron doesn't want you to know that in the 2004 AFC title game footage I posted that Dillon didn't look good in the first half on his runs. But, what did it do? It made Pitt's D accountbale for more than just defending the pass and 2 measly targets.

    THere are more examples of it from 2007-2012 vs 2005-2007, but you can just see the evolution of it and the indirect abuse of it, especially in 2011 and at times last year.

    I will fully admit that it was blatantly obvious they committed more to the run in 2012. Everyone noticed it, so it's clear they see it as some variaton of the problem. But, the shotgun itself is also a problem. Handing it off out of the shotgun to Woodhead, doesn't count in my book. That's a MAJOR problem, because it appears like it's only done for effect.

    Anyone remember preseason 2010 when they ran amuck on ATL and NOs defensive front 7s? I do.

    Then, the regular season hit, Brady was in the shotgun staring down Moss and Welker.  Moss was then dealt after Brady's crappy start tot he year (@ the Jets was the worst).

    Here's the deal:

    Don't ever have a shotgun spread base gameplan against a good or great D.  Ever. It fails every time or our D bails out Brady and the offense.  I would only use it as a wrinkle,  a 2 minute type of situation or if you are behind (see SF 49ers game thi year).

    Then, when the D does not bail out the crappy offense, every moron pink helmet comes whipping on these boards to whine about the D and what BB has done as a defensive coach.

    If you want to pin the fact Brady has full autonomy during games on BB, then fine, go right ahead. If I was a coach of a great, HOF QB, I'd probably do the same thing.

    But, it hasn't worked as well as some here claim.    The fact is, the more autonomy he's had under McDaniels or O'brien, the WORSE his play has been against good or great Ds.

    Go watch the drive out of halftime in SB 39 that I posted.  He gets to the line, runs the play and he's only in the shotgun on the obvious 3rd downs.    That drive was scripted with Brady not having any autonomy.  That's what I want MORE of.

    Same deal in the 2006 video I posted above. 24 passes by halftime against a godo Bears D.  Outrageous.   Compare those examples to what you see since 2007 in particular in the postseason games in 2010, 2011 or 2012.

    Good thing Laura "Twinkle Toes" Maroney on the left side of our O Line did what they did in the 2007 AFC Title game and that 4th qtr, huh?

    That's how far back this goes.  They're just reading Brady's eyes on basically TWO targets.

    1. They know in the shotgun it's 90% pass.

    2. They know it's going to pretty much only 2 targets whom he prefers.

    This ups the odds to easily defend our offense in terms of preparation and scheme.

    These are you answers here. Right here. These are the reasons why we lost SB 42 and SB 46 and a whole slew of games we shouldn't have lost or almost lost.

    I am not looking for perfection or asking for the moon here as a fan.  This isn't complex. But, to ignore a mountain of evidence like this, for whatever the reason, is ridiculous.

    It's pretty sad that I knew we would lose this year's AFC title game once I saw how they were running the second drive. Ridley pulled off, Woodhead on and here comes the shotgun spread base with no run game established yet.

    LOSS.

    Even when it was 13-7 in the 3rd qtr, I knew we'd lose.  It's asking WAY too much of your D in an offensive era to hold down what is in fact a good offense in Baltimore. I don't care if it's the Giants offense in SB 46 or Balt's offense in the AFC title game.

    Ironically, I want our offense to be run like they run theirs.

    Makes it worse to think about. 

    So, when you come in here whining about BB, left and right, as a GM, blah blah blah, this or that or someone taps into a portion of our problem on offense, please don't act like you know what you're talking about RKrap.

    All your little pink helmet Irrational buddies can just forget about it. You lost this debate a long time ago.

     

     




    you say everyone lost this debate and you won it, but you are debating the wrong topic. the debate is the reason for so much shot gun and hurry up because of BB or not? I say definatively it is. This team does not do anything with out BB's approval. you blame Brady.

    I happen to think I am correct as to why BB runs this offense (to score 30 plus points to hide a porous D) while you think the blame is on Brady.

    The board seems to agree with the way BB is planning this offense, and Brady executing it, you seem to be the lone dissenter.

    I think it is now going on 3 years or so, that I have told you time and time again, my sole criticism of BB has been with the free agency signings. NOt the cuts (Milloy) trades (Seymour) or managing of the cap. My criticism is the decisions made with the available cap money.

    really, at the end of the day, I am applauding BB's genius for running this offense, while you are blaming Brady for its failures. Why dont you hold BB accountable for changing the offense?  

     
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  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from stillgridlocked. Show stillgridlocked's posts

    Re: The Brady

    In response to RidingWithTheKingII's comment:

    Watch and weep:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qk9Fiy7HARs

    Look at our first drive. What do you see?

    Brady under Center, a reverese and two runs to Dillon. Dillon  only got a few yards per carry! Oh no!

    Not that!  Not the establishment of the run and Brady under Center in the 1st qtr!

    No!  It's too boring!  I want fireworks and bombs to Moss or underneath, predictable plays to Welkie only!

    LOL

    Gee, I wonder how Branch got open, deep, later on off playaction for a 40 yard TD strike? I am so confused.

     

    They rushed for 126 yards in that game and they ran 32 times versus 21 passes so they continued to pound ahead. 125 yards included two around ends apparently by Branch for 37 yards.  Now when the running game isn't going well they pretty much abandon it.

    The Pats no longer throw screens and they are more predictable than they were under Weiss.



     
  20. You have chosen to ignore posts from patsbandwagonsince76. Show patsbandwagonsince76's posts

    Re: The Brady

     

    Wow, you guys write a lot fast.

    Incase the point has not been made, I agree that Brady is less likely to take hits and run for the first down when needed and agree the offense has adjusted by being centered around quick decision making and quick passing.

    The result is, If they play a team that cannot put pressure on Brady they destroy them & theyhave out of this world stats.

    If they play a team that can crowd the recievers and get to Brady they look terrible and usually lose. This has been going on for 6 years.

    Luckily there are no more teams like this in the AFC..but good luck if they get to the SB vs. SF or Seattle.

     

     
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