The competition at the wide receiver position

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  3. You have chosen to ignore posts from CatfishHunter. Show CatfishHunter's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to TFB12's comment:

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!




    Yeah, his absence coincided with the guy they found in the Maine woods after 27 years.  But that guy is without internet access now so I guess it's someone else.

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/justice/maine-hermit-arrest

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!

     




    Explain how I am getting "owned"?  Stick to the photoshopping.  Those are your ONLY skills here.

     




    Just go back and read the past few threads you posted and people responded to! Owned!  Kind of like this...

     

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    In response to TFB12's comment:

     

    Rusty back for a short time and already getting owned!  I love this place!

     




    Yeah, his absence coincided with the guy they found in the Maine woods after 27 years.  But that guy is without internet access now so I guess it's someone else.

     

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/justice/maine-hermit-arrest




    LOL!

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to zbellino's comment:

    The New England Patriots have never *ever* run a West Coast offense. Please get your facts straight. They've run an Earhardt-Perkins offense for almost 40 consecutive years ...



    Rusty makes garbage up then uses the "because I said so" argument as the reason why.  I think he types too fast for his brain and paints himself into corners.  Patriots don't use anything like the West Coast offense.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    Russ,

    I am not sure how you classify the pats offense, but the one that seems close is walshs west coast offense. He relied on short patterns to spread defenses out, however, this was done as well to set up a long run or pass play. major difference is that San Fran had a legit deep ball threat unlike us To make it work effectively. The pats havent since Moss, and, with Moss, I would argue that that offense was prolific because we can play small and long ball and had very capable and extraordibary players to execute it. That offense as good as it was was missing another key component which is a good run game. And, for whatever reason, became too reliant on one mode of play. 

    Names on jerseys matter. It is unreasonable to believe Brady can be given a bunch of jags and rooks and have them all function at a high level in a complicated offense. Talent, and sometimes big names make a difference. Lets see if Brady and bb can take this and mold inot something effective...but to not be nervous because we have a bunch of injury prone players maning key spots with rooks seems crazy

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to PatsLifer's comment:

    Russ,

    I am not sure how you classify the pats offense, but the one that seems close is walshs west coast offense. He relied on short patterns to spread defenses out, however, this was done as well to set up a long run or pass play. major difference is that San Fran had a legit deep ball threat unlike us To make it work effectively. The pats havent since Moss, and, with Moss, I would argue that that offense was prolific because we can play small and long ball and had very capable and extraordibary players to execute it. That offense as good as it was was missing another key component which is a good run game. And, for whatever reason, became too reliant on one mode of play. 

    Names on jerseys matter. It is unreasonable to believe Brady can be given a bunch of jags and rooks and have them all function at a high level in a complicated offense. Talent, and sometimes big names make a difference. Lets see if Brady and bb can take this and mold inot something effective...but to not be nervous because we have a bunch of injury prone players maning key spots with rooks seems crazy




    Agreed.  What is perfect about your example here is you point out a very important and specific piece to the puzzle.  The 49'ers had Rice and the Pats had Moss.  Both legit deep threat receivers that really made everything work.  Something the Pats have not been able to do since Moss left.  Sure, the Pats got by not having a legit deep threat receiver, but a legit deep threat receiver takes everything to the next level. 

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    I think I finally figured out why he likes TB under center so much.  You have to be good at backpedaling from that position.

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    I think I finally figured out why he likes TB under center so much.  You have to be good at backpedaling.




    BWahahahahaha!!! You nailed it dude!!!  And the blows just keep landing!  Rusty owned again!

     

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to wozzy's comment:

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.



    Same thing happened last week.  We were told to trust TB's "I prefer the shotgun" quote because it was given "unguarded" to  D&C.

    But we were told to laugh at and distrust the comments TB made about WW's departure and his level of control over the offense because it was a "loaded question" from the "general media".  It's easy to see how he thought it came from the "general media" because the ESPN story had a little line he missed.  That line showed that the question came from the D&C show.

    You. Can't. Make. It. Up.

     
  19. You have chosen to ignore posts from TFB12. Show TFB12's posts

    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to CatfishHunter's comment:

    In response to wozzy's comment:

     

    The Ernhardt/Perkins offense has always used the power running game with tight ends and a slot receiver as the focus of the offense; whether it was Phil McConky and Mark Bavaro, or Terry Glenn and Ben Coates, or Troy Brown and Daniel Graham, or Deion Branch and Graham or Wes Welker and Ben Watson or Welker and Gronk... short passes aren't mutually exclusive to the West Coast offense.  

    But I don't see the Patriots running a lot of Pro Form sets. They run single back sets, I form sets... the NFL offense has blended to where sometimes it's indescribable, but to point to Brady and say the reason the struggle with offense is because he wants to run a west coast offense is silly, because it's untrue and it doesn't explain the success the 49ers and Packers have with the same system.

    According to you Bedard is a flunky, until you need a quote from him that is... I wouldn't ask him for advice on how to inflate my football.

     



    Same thing happened last week.  We were told to trust TB's "I prefer the shotgun" quote because it was given "unguarded" to  D&C.

     

    But we were told to laugh at and distrust the comments TB made about WW's departure and his level of control over the offense because it was a "loaded question" from the "general media".  It's easy to see how he thought it came from the "general media" because the ESPN story had a little line he missed.  That line showed that the question came from the D&C show.

    You. Can't. Make. It. Up.



    What do you mean you can't make it up?  Rusty makes stuff up all the time! 

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to zbellino's comment:

     

    No. It's not a hybrid. Not at all. You are wrong. 

    In EP offense you use one kind of nomenclature for plays, one kind of terminology, one kind of route system. 

    In West Coast you use another entirely different set of all of these. 

    1.) One is incredibly complex in terminology, the other is streamlined in terminology.

    2.) One has very simple route system matched to the play another uses complex route concepts matched to packages and adjustments.

    3.) One uses numbers and receiver spots and "tags" to generate a meaning for a play.

    The other uses single word terminology, with relativelty few tags. 

    4.) One uses plays that are  WR driven, the other uses plays that driven from a QBs perspective.

    The Zampese offense is almost identical in the "concepts" they ran to what NE has run here as well, both of them falling under the more modern "Air Erhardt" iteration of the system. The use of ball control passing is something NE has done, and Erhardt had done, for decade, since the late 1980s. It's nothing new at all. 

    In that sense.... every single offense in the NFL is a "hybrid" of the West Coast offense because since it arrived in the NFL every single offense, with exception of a few gimmick offenses, has employed the type of ball control passing, passing to set up running lanes, etcetera, that Bill Walsh used .... but that's why West Coast was so revolutionary .... it literally changed the way the NFL game was played. But adapting to modern NFL concepts is something Erhardt himself was already doing in the late 1980s and early 1990s ... by the time any of these people you mention arrived here in NE, ball control passing and Erhardt Perkins were already associated together. Next thing people are going to be telling me that anyone who scripts plays the way Walsh did are running a hybrid. 

    Bledsoe threw the ball 500-600 times pitching it as ball control passes to Glenn and Coates the same way Brady throws the ball 500-600 times to his slots and TEs. 

    Brady put 100 balls in Browns hands in 2001 and 2002, and 100 between Branch/Brown from 2003, 2005 and 2006, and has put 100 balls into Welker's hands from 2007-2012.

    The shifts are shifts in peripheral personnel, but the core: one RB and ball control passing has been the same. There are wrinkles added and subtracted each season to give the offense nuance and variety year to year, but this team has been driven by the slot since BB arrived ... it's not a hyrbid it's just Air Erhardt.

    What you are saying is basically anathema ... this team, the one you claim to love so much is literally synonymous with this offensive system, it is NE's legacy and the pedigree of everything that has been done here. 

    At no point was it a hybrid with a West Coast offense at all. They've literally used the same EP terminology and basic concepts for decades the way EP developed them, and have never employed anyone that uses a West Coast playbook or West Coast terminology ever.  



    Good summation...

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     



    You can arfgue with the entire BDC community on labeling the Pats offense, however you are as nutty as ever if you think this WR group is "loaded"...I can agree that Amendola is a very good WR. I dont think Jenkins makes the final cut. I also have little faith in rookie WR's in general. So you seem to be counting on Jones, Hawkins and Edelman to outperform their norm.

    I agree with you, on paper, the TE's look great. But, if Gronk is PUP'd, and Hern has his usual assortment of injuries, Ballard is not a strong enough TE to carry the load...

    Can you also point out other than the SB and AFCCCG when this offense left you with a pit in your stomache? Granted, the team has not played well offensively or defensively in those games, and has been outcoached in those games. But in the past 5 years, other than 2-5 games, when has this offense left you with a pit in your stomache over the course of over 80 games? 

     
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    Re: The competition at the wide receiver position

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    In response to BassFishingII's comment:

     

    In response to rkarp's comment:

     

    It seems nerve wracking and a bit far fetched to think a SB contender is relying on 2 rookies, 2 UDFA, a couple of retreads and 2 injury prone players as the WR's for the most prolific QB and passing game in NFL history. Past history dictates this simply won't work. Lets hope history doesn't repeat itself

     




    It's "nerve wracking" that we have Gronk, Ballard and Hern as the best TE group in the entire NFL, Amendola as a veteran  with Michael Jenkins as another proven vet, nice RBs here with experience and full camp together again, with literally 10 other WRs for 2 spots?

     

    This is "nerve wracking"?

    Our passing game has SUCKED in the postseason, so I am pretty sure what it was more "nerve wracking" is our older WRs in previous postseasons not playing very well with Tom Brady leading his preferred shotgun spread.

    THAT's what is "nerve wracking".  What's nerve wracking is when I get that pit in my stomach in the first half because we leave points on the board and never established a proper run game to draw in the LBs from the middle of the field, as we then continue to see our QB only look at the same two receiving options for 40+ times, as if it's a race to get to 40 passes in a lower scoring game.

    THAT is what is "nerve wracking" because I know it won't work.

    I am THRILLED to see a clear change in approach like this, forcing Brady to get his head back to straight, get back to basics and force him to develop a rapport with EVERYONE in camp, instead of throwing 5 yard passes to Wes Welker, Gronk and Hern all summer.

    Thank you, BB. Thank you.  Finally the plug has been pulled and we can move on from a failed, finesse shotgun spread base.

     

     

     



    You can arfgue with the entire BDC community on labeling the Pats offense, however you are as nutty as ever if you think this WR group is "loaded"...I can agree that Amendola is a very good WR. I dont think Jenkins makes the final cut. I also have little faith in rookie WR's in general. So you seem to be counting on Jones, Hawkins and Edelman to outperform their norm.

     

    I agree with you, on paper, the TE's look great. But, if Gronk is PUP'd, and Hern has his usual assortment of injuries, Ballard is not a strong enough TE to carry the load...

    Can you also point out other than the SB and AFCCCG when this offense left you with a pit in your stomache? Granted, the team has not played well offensively or defensively in those games, and has been outcoached in those games. But in the past 5 years, other than 2-5 games, when has this offense left you with a pit in your stomache over the course of over 80 games? 

     



    They were not "outcoached" at all. The players lacked execution in key moments. It's not outcoached.  Please learn the game.  A Tyree catch off a helment or a Brady INT or Welker drop are not "outcoached" examples whatsoever. The media would have had to have RAVED about BB's defensive gameplan in SB 46 barring our superstars not letting the team down on offense. Raved.  13 points allowed is outcoached while waiting for our offense to simply get into FG range with a big footed kicker in a dome? Really? You have quite the terminology there, RKrap.

     

    Talib and Jones not able to play in January is "outcoached"?  Hmm. Another loose definition from you.  

    Finally, I only referenced Michael Jenkins because he's a veteran with experience who can get up to speed quickly as can Donald Jones, the latter a high football IQ which is what the receivers here have been missing (Jackson, Tate, Price, etc). This isn't about who makes the roster.

    It's about understanding that BB has had it with Brady playing favorites and then me needing to slap ZBellino and some others on the idea that this offense has somehow never used West Coast concepts this whole time. lmao

    Of course they have. It is absolutely an ever evolving scheme tapping into all passing offense, actually.  Go search on You Tube with the Vrabel TD drive in SB 39. West Coast offense at its finest. Brady under center, various formations, run game used with Brady under Center, just like some guy named MOntana and the ball is spread around.

    Brady is infamous for getting the ball out and spreading it around, not trying to get balls well downfield like a Coryell offense.  

    Our offense was always about getting the ball out quick, spreading it around, and using the run game but not alwasy in the shotgun.  Since 2007, it's been more about a shotgun spread, which is also nowhere near a Perkins/Earhardt offense either.  Somehow, someway the ZBellinos, and others expect a 100% perfect O Line for 45 pass attempts and Brady in a shotgun patting the ball for 6 seconds until someone breaks open, but we don't need to and nor have we successfully run West Coast style plays here. It's only HOW we won 2 SBs in 2003 and 2004 for crying out out loud. Some call it dink and dunk. I call it a variation of a West COast base.  Regardless, those clowns claim we've never run a West Coast play from that playbook. bawhwahaha

    If Gronk is PUPed, we're still absolutely loaded with two good looking rookie WRs with different skill sets and high IQs, Donald Jones (if he makes it), Edelman (if he makes it), Amendola, etc.  That is a lot of "if he makes it" types, huh?  Yep. Sure is.  Love it. Absolutely love it.  No more retreads with a name on the jersey to keep Brady coddled.


    Competition is the firecest  I've ever seen. We used to pencil in starters at this spot year after year after year since 2007, and now we can't do that. THAT is a great thing, not a bad thing.

     

     

     

     


     

     

    With all due respect (I use that term lightly) the only reason we arent "penciling" in starters because either A.) they S*ck or B.) they are unproven, or C.) Injury prone. Its NOT because we have so much talent that we dont know where to play them. That would be a good problem. As it stands now, Brady will have to work harder than he ever has to integrate so many new options in ONE year, esp considering the Youth part of it. Brady didnt like counting on rookies when he was  28, never mind now at pushing 40! YOU just want to make it seem like Brady has no excuse to fail when in reality this may be his most challenging offseason considering everything,. but leave it you to sneak in your Brady Jabs....smh. Loaded?!??!   Lol, ,see me in October and IF they pan out, who is gonna get credit?!!??!  BB??  lol

     
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